Blackfly Down - FIXED - thanks. [ Archive] - GasSavers.org - Helping You Save at the Pump

Sorry, couldn't resist the thread title.

Apparently I've been boasting too much lately how trouble-free my Fireflies have been, and the universe took note. The Blackfly took ill suddenly today, and I'm out of ideas on what could be wrong.

Here's what happened: was out getting supplies for the tranny swap. On the way home, after bump-starting the car at one point, it started as usual, but running really roughly. So I quit codfishing and just pointed for home. Mileage on the SG plummeted to 25 by the time I got in the driveway.

Black sooty smoke is coming from the tailpipe, even at idle, and it smells to me like it's rich (duh).

The CEL is not on.

There was one code stored in the computer, which may or may not be related to the problem, but I'll say it anyway: it's for the camshaft position sensor, AKA the distributor pickup coil. My kill-switch is wired in this circuit, and I have mistakenly generated this code before by trying to start the car with the switch in the wrong (off) position. I did make this mistake on my previous drive, so that's probably where the code came from.

I removed my switch from the circuit and also swapped a known-to-be-working sensor over from the ForkenSwift. No go. The car runs the same.

I reset the error code and it hasn't come back. No other codes are coming up, and the CEL is off, which is really surprising considering how crappy the car is running.

Spark plugs are black as night, covered with soot.

Battery voltage is fine (I re-connected the alternator).

Any suggestions where I should look next?

The first thing that comes to mind is that you might have a bad flux capacitor.:)

Sorry Darin. I can't help but I wish you good luck. It least the flea still runs. Maybe low fuel pressure?

Check your timing?

Fixed! The flux capacitor was a little loose.

(If only it were that easy...)

I don't think fuel pressure is low, since it seems to be getting far too much of the stuff.

Timing hasn't changed. Distributor is lined up exactly where I left it.

I wonder if it's coincidental that it happened after bump starting.

Is it rly fixed? I thought it might have jumped a few teeth or some ****. I don't see what bump starting would have to do with it, larry was just cruising when his car went kablam.

no, not really fixed.

Do you know if jumped teeth would cause these symptoms?

I'm not rly sure about jumped teeth, but it's often said it will prevent a honda from starting if it's bad enough and if your timing is way off it's quite concievable you'd be ejecting unburnt gasoline. And jumped timing is just something that happens randomly, which is why I thought of it.

Plus, I'm not sure why it would have jumped. At least, I don't think I can point the finger at clutch-starting... I should probably check it though.

I think I'm going to go drive it around a little and see if I can get the CEL to come on. That would be helpful.

EDIT: if the timing were way off, wouldn't it be hard to start too? It starts up OK. It just runs like crap and is spewing black out the back.

The dizzy could've crapped, that'd be easy, just check the timing marks (you have them, right?)

Don't know if this will help but saw the post and googled the black smoke from tail pipe and found this: It's for an Explorer but might be worth looking at.

Most likely you've got a blown fuel pressure regulator, which is pushing
fuel directly into the intake via the vacuum hoses that connect on the
drivers side toward the rear of the motor on the side of the upper intake
manifold. To test this, on a COLD ENGINE remove the two 'hard' plastic
lines from the vacuum tree (they'll have rubberized right-angle nubs) and
get someone to flip the car off to on for about 3 seconds, you should hear
the fuel pump run. If gas comes out of either of the hoses, you need a fuel
pressure regulator (only one of those hoses is the fuel pressure regulator,
its just too bothersome to trace the lines, just yank em both)

Also found where the said could be a clogged injector?
Just trying to help but I'll leave to you guy that know alot more than I ever will. Good Luck.

Did a drive just now: 19 mpg. According to the SG, the engine is in open loop constantly, even when hot.

The only thing that could fail in the dizzy is the pickup coil/camshaft sensor, and I already replaced it with the one from the ForkenSwift.

I wish I had paid attention to my timing advance on the SG. I seem to recall it hovered around 30 degrees at 80 km/h cruising, light load. I was seeing 10 just now. But I can't be sure. Unfortunately, I can't check it with the usual method because I have no timing light.

I'll try the regulator test with the key on/off trick. If I just cycle the pump half a dozen times using the key, by that logic it should flood the intake and make the car harder to start. We'll see.

Also, is got tons of acceleration at low RPM. No surprise there. :D

Hondas have marks on the cam gear and crank pulley that you line up when doing the timing belt so you know the timing is on (in terms of the belt at least), can you check something like that?

I agree - fuel pressure regulator would be suspect.

1. Check Fuel Pressure Regulator
2. Check Ignition - I know you said that you though your code was from your cut-off circuit, but if it was missfiring severly, it could cause the same symptoms.

If I find anything else I'll post up too.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, everyone.

- pressure test: I cycled the pump 10 times in a row then 6 times in a row. Car starts with no trouble. This may not be a valid test for that though.

- Ben, now I get what you're saying about the timing marks. Yes, I can pull the valve cover and check those (tomorrow).

- Did another short drive: noticed the MAP value didn't budge from 14.8 whether at WOT or full engine braking with the throttle shut (or anywhere in between).

- But the biggest mystery is: still no CEL or new codes

My Geo had a recall - seems the MAP sensor had a dip in the hose going to it and would clog with water vapor and freeze in the winter. The fix was a vent bypass orifice that leaked air throught the hose and in effect lowered the vacuum to the MAP sensor which in turn richened the fuel mixture and lowered the gas mileage. I closed off the opening in it a little extra. During that time the Geo ran rich and the MAP sensor that had failed I had before that really dropped the MPG and it ran lousy - maybe you killed the MAP sensor. Also the pressure is regulated by a return to tank bleeder - make sure it is working.

Thanks guys, it's fixed. JanGeo - you win the prize for being closest.

I should have figured this out last night when I saw the the MAP value of 14.8 PSI at all times. 14.8 PSI is close to standard air pressure. Normally the engine would only see a value that high either at WOT - or - if there's a vacuum leak.

Turned out to be a big split in one end of the MAP vacuum line where I had spliced in a T-connector for my cruise control. Trimmed off the bad end, reconnected it, and it's running normally again.

Now I understand why I didn't get a CEL: the MAP sensor wasn't bad, it was just merrily reporting very high pressure, and the ECU was responding the way it was programmed to: by going into open loop and dumping in more fuel, as if the car was at WOT.

Now, if the ECU was comparing TPS to MAP, it would have figured out that something was wrong, but I guess it doesn't do that comparison.

Anyhoo... thanks again for the feedback everybody.

At least it wasn't anything serious. Basically you caused the problem yourself.

I made a hole in my air hose and after I removed the nitrous I had to tape it with duct tape. It worked horrible. I found a dealer that sold a brand new piece and it was updated. After I installed it I gained some low end torque.

Basically you caused the problem yourself.

Actually, I'm going to take this opportunity to blame the rubber vacuum line for splitting 9 months after I spliced in the "tee". :D

Actually, I'm going to take this opportunity to blame the rubber vacuum line for splitting 9 months after I spliced in the "tee". :D

LOL. I got so much blaming to do myself. But forget it. It's over, it's done with. Enjoy what you have.

Darn, I was going to say something about the map sensor but then I got lazy, :p

You're lucky to be able to monitor your map output like that.

Funny you had that split - I added the T for my cruize control and when they did the recall it drove them crazy wondering where the extra hose went - they cut it out of course and threw away my T. Had to redo it - they said to connect to the intake manifold somewhere else but there is no other place to tap into the manifold.

Wow you got lucky! Nice work!

I noticed some smoke a few weeks ago and it ended up being the intake valve seals. I had to spend a weekend pulling the head and replacing them. I would have been so excited if it were something as simple as a split vacuum hose...

You lucky dog!

I knew it probably wasn't something serious - the car's only got 5000 miles on it. And my smoke was black. I bet yours was more blue from the valve seals.

Yes, definitely the SG helped figure this one out. Seeing open loop, no codes and the MAP value helped figure it all out in the end.

JanGeo: I went through the same thing looking for somewhere to put the cruise vacuum line. We both ended up at the same place - there really weren't any other good options.

ROFLMAO@ 5000 miles. I know it's true but it's just funny.

Darin's not one of those suckers who buys a car with 150k on it just because it's newer.

Darin's not one of those suckers who buys a car with 150k on it just because it's newer.

Darin got lucky. I'm not going to pay $10k for a 2000 civic with 50k miles. I'll get something below 120k.

Darin got lucky.
I was just patient. I'll admit finding a 7 y/o car with 2400 km on it was pretty extreme, but I watched the ads very closely for a year and saw 3 or 4 Suzukiclones within an hour driving distance, each with under 30,000 km on the clock. These were all 7-11 yr old cars priced $3-4K. They're out there.

Did another short drive: noticed the MAP value didn't budge from 14.8

Just a question about vacuum with the 3-cylinder. Would you mind checking your reading at idle with the engine warmed up for me? Your low-mileage engine may give me an idea of what my vacuum should be at.

EDIT: Oh, whoops...that's 14.8 psi? Darn, I thought it was in. Hg. of vacuum. Well, if you could give me a number anyway maybe I can do a conversion and see where it ends up.

I was a bit surprised about the 14.8 myself, since my ecu goes all the way up to 27" or somethingsuch.