Just failed emissions twice [ Archive] - GasSavers.org - Helping You Save at the Pump

My wife's CRX is due for renewal. We took it in for emissions and safety the other day. The emissions as 10mph passed, but failed at 25mph. It failed on the NOx, and was over by around .3 (should be .9, read at 1.2).

I replaced the sparkplugs, warmed up the car and took it back.

This time it was over 2.0 at both 10mph and 25mph. It was also overheating like crazy. YOu try driving home with the heater on in 90+ degree weather in the desert... argh.


Anyway, the next shot is to replace the o2 sensor. I'll use the one from my civic as I don't need it any more. The guy said that my new plugs might not be gapped properly, but I was hoping that wasn't the issue b/c I bought the "pre-gapped" ones. That's what I get for spending extra money on spark plugs.

Can anyone think of what might cause high NOx emissions? Is it possible that it's time for a new catalytic converter?

Is it possible to give her your second cat when you hook up your test pipe?

My wife's CRX is due for renewal. We took it in for emissions and safety the other day. The emissions as 10mph passed, but failed at 25mph. It failed on the NOx, and was over by around .3 (should be .9, read at 1.2).

I replaced the sparkplugs, warmed up the car and took it back.

This time it was over 2.0 at both 10mph and 25mph. It was also overheating like crazy. YOu try driving home with the heater on in 90+ degree weather in the desert... argh.


Anyway, the next shot is to replace the o2 sensor. I'll use the one from my civic as I don't need it any more. The guy said that my new plugs might not be gapped properly, but I was hoping that wasn't the issue b/c I bought the "pre-gapped" ones. That's what I get for spending extra money on spark plugs.

Can anyone think of what might cause high NOx emissions? Is it possible that it's time for a new catalytic converter?Is the egr valve working. That's for NOx.

Is it possible to give her your second cat when you hook up your test pipe?

I was actually just thinking about that. I might do it if the next plan fails.

High NOx apparently means it's running lean, which is also shown by it always overheating. Perhaps the new O2 sensor will fix it. Thanks for the 411 bagpipe goatee.

Is the egr valve working. That's for NOx.

I'm unsure if they had EGR valves in 87. Since my 89 doesn't have one I think they didn't have EGR valves. I'll double check though.

The only civics that got egr until 01 were the FE models, and I think the crx is an si, so I doubt it'd have it.

Clogged injector? Low fuel pressure?

Hey, I suggested low FP also!

Anyway, I hope I live to be old enough to see a clogged injector on a honda, but Iono, seems improbable, :p

the 180F thermostats are stock for reduced nox emissions, if you are running a 192 thermostat for better mpg it's going to hamper your emissions test.

the side gaped/pregaped plugs don't alwas agree with honda's, I've had best luck with NGK plugs, they only last 15,000 miles, but the copper core conducts better then platnum, altho platnum never wears out.

try running some fuel system cleaner if you haven't already.

if you have an EGR valve it will be listed on yoru under hood lable, my 85 crx hf has an egr valve, along with my 84 civic hatch back.

Also, is it running hot because it's lean, or is it lean because it's running hot? If you know what I mean.

Also, is it running hot because it's lean, or is it lean because it's running hot? If you know what I mean.

I know exactly what you mean. Tomorrow I'll swap the o2 sensor. I tried to do it tonight but it started getting dark, and in my "old age" I'm developing the inability to see very well at nighttime. I also realized I'm going to have to solder the wire for the o2 sensor if I want to use the spare I have.

Fix the overheating first. NOx increases with the temperature in the combustion chamber, and overheating will cause an increase in NOx. It's also possible that your EGR valve is not working, but I bet it's the overheating. You said it was worse the second time around when the car was warmer, right? To test your EGR valve, apply vacuum to it while the the engine is idling with no load. The engine should sputter or stall. If the idle doesn't change, then the EGR system isn't working. Could be a bad EGR valve or a clogged passage. Check for coolant leaks as the cause of the over heating. Also, make sure the fan(s) is/are working. I agree with Ryland about the NGKs - It's all I put in Hondas, and it's what the come with from the factory (those and Densos). If it's overheated pretty bad you may want to check that the head gasket didn't blow - Civics will do that when they get hot. Does it smoke?

No smoke.

Just checked parts sites and the 87 CRX Si doesn't have an EGR.

Just a bit of info I didn't mention before. The PGMFI light would come on every once in a while. I checked the code on the ECU and it said the problem was either the spark plugs or the O2 sensor. This is why I think replacing the o2 sensor will help.

There are no coolant leaks that I know of, but I'll double check anyway. Oil is always clean so odds of a headgasket being blown are low.

I'll get some NGK plugs and put them in. Any idea where I can buy them? Pepboys? Napa? Honda?

NAPA seems to prefer NGK in my area. At least that's what they gave me for my Toyota a few years ago.

NAPA seems to prefer NGK in my area. At least that's what they gave me for my Toyota a few years ago.

[Mr. Burns]Excelllent[/Mr. Burns]

I'll putter on over there today and get some new plugs for my n600 and the CRX.

arg lost the post ended up in advance -

cut out the fuel additives there is a theory that acetone interacts with the O2 sensor and makes it run lean - retard your timing and cold air instead of hot air intake.

arg lost the post ended up in advance -

cut out the fuel additives there is a theory that acetone interacts with the O2 sensor and makes it run lean - retard your timing and cold air instead of hot air intake.

This car doesn't have any fuel saving mods.

Just the high temp ... humm you would think that the ethanol would help it but as we all know the difference is not oxygenating the fuel as expected . . . maybe time for some carbon rich fuel additives then!!! And lower thermostat to run cooler - come to think of it if you are lean it will run HOT and make more NOx right??

Usually when head gaskets blow on these things, the oil never gets contaminated. The gasket will allow coolant into the comb. chamber and it will smoke (steam) out the tailpipe - this is just from my experience with Hondas, not other brands. Since you have no smoke, the head gasket is probably okay. If your old plugs look unusually clean, that's a sign of a blown gasket as well. How's your thermostat and EGR valve? How does your radiator look?

How's your thermostat and EGR valve? How does your radiator look?

Once again, no EGR Valve on this car.

I'm assuming the t-stat is fine, but I have no plans on replacing it unless it's stuck open or shut. Both rad hoses heat up, so I'm assuming it's fine.

The VX just failied emmissions also. Not ONx but HC. I googled it and found these common causes of failure..
EXCESSIVE HYDROCARBONS (HC)

These emissions result from unburned fuel. Check the following areas for problems:
- Internal engine trouble
- Faulty air pump
- Ignition system
- Exhaust gas recirculation system (EGR)
- Catalytic converter
- Gas Cap

EXCESSIVE CARBON MONOXIDE (CO)

High amounts of carbon monoxide occur in a rich fuel mixture, meaning there's either too much or too little air reaching the combustion chamber. Check for problems with the following:
- Mis-adjusted carburetor
- Faulty fuel-injection system
- Dirty air filter
- Worn rings or valve guides
- Air pump system

OXIDES OF NITROGEN (NOx)

High levels of NOx can be caused by excessive temperature in the combustion chamber of a damaged catalytic converter. Check for problems with the following:
- Air injection system
- EGR system
- Combustion chamber deposits
- Dirty fuel injectors"

These emissions result from unburned fuel.

Well krousdb, looks like it's time for you to buy a fuel atomizer!

(this post was a joke. Please don't mistake this as an endorsement for a product that doesn't work.)

The only things I can think of that affect NOx are the O2 sensor and the cat. A lean mixture would increase NOx. If the cat is rattling (breaking up inside) then it needs replacement.

Well krousdb, looks like it's time for you to buy a fuel atomizer!

(this post was a joke. Please don't mistake this as an endorsement for a product that doesn't work.)

No, what I really need is an "Easy Button".

No, what I really need is an "Easy Button".

Here you are

http://content.dealnews.com/image.php?image_id=5175&size=large

Here you are

http://content.dealnews.com/image.php?image_id=5175&size=large
Don't get your hopes up for that one. We've been using an easy button at the office for weeks and it's a big disappointment. (Seriously...one of our admins got one and put it on her desk.)

Dan's problem is encouraging because excessive hydrocarbons = should be using less fuel than it is, hence the potential for huge numbers once he has it in tune. Of course, I'm assuming that it won't be a huge $$ fix...

Hope you guys get these cars running right!

Yes, better FE if I can fix it. Wodering how the gas cap can lead to high HC?

Matt: I don't know what you've done, already, but from my perspective, I'd try to find out what is causing it to overheat. If your having to run your heater as an auxiliary radiator, something's either causing it to lean out, tremendously, or your thermostat isn't opening, or something. I've had a lot of problems with my 87 Civic, in regard to overheating, but I am pretty sure that most of my problems stem from a loss of fluid, when the system get's under pressure. Every time I check, it is only down maybe 2 cups of water, in the radiator, but that 2 cups is enough to make the thermostat not get water, and hence it doesn't open, which in turn causes it to get hotter, which in turn causes more pressure, causing more water loss. In every instance, when I have checked it, it has been down by a couple of cup's of water.

In my case, I found I had a radiator which was getting pretty tired, which I have replaced, but which hasn't really been tested because it's sitting, waiting for me to finish figuring out a totally unrelated issue.

In any case, on the 87, the radiator seems to sit lower than in the 89, and it seems to be extremely critical for all of the air to be evacuated, all of the time.

Good Luck

Thanks Gary. As soon as my wife gets home I'm going to check her radiator level... well, the car cools down at least. I also bought some NGK spark plugs for it a few minutes ago.

I might get a new radiator for it if it's losing coolant, which I'm certain will fix the overheating.

Fon't forget, the ECU told me to check the spark/o2 sensor a while ago, so I'm also sure that it's part of the problem.

I also bought some NGK spark plugs for it a few minutes ago.

Was I right? Did NAPA stock 'em?

Was I right? Did NAPA stock 'em?

Yep... Napa is by far my favorite store for parts like these.

Woohoo! Now I can rest easy knowing that I didn't steer you wrong. :D :p

I always forget about NAPA since they're in an odd location in town. Besides, I have this nice little private outlet I frequent that could practically build me a brand new Metro from scratch if they had a body and frame.

So here are the specifics:

Emmision COntrols Visual/Functional Inspection:
EGR System: Pass
PCV System: Pass
Fuel Inlet Restrictor : Pass
Catalytic Converter: Pass
Evaporative Control System: Pass
Gazs Cap Integrity: Pass

Tailpipe Emmissions Inspection:
740 RPM, CO Reading 0.07, Limit 1.20, PASS
2381 RPM, CO Reading 0.11, Limit 1.20, PASS
740 RPM, HC Reading 239, Limit 220, FAIL
2381 RPM, HC Reading 116, Limit 110, PASS

So I failed because Im about 10% over on the HC only at idle. The report also notes that I failed emmissions inspection because of the high HC and because the gas cap is bad.

Did you replace the cap and then try it again? "Wodering how the gas cap can lead to high HC." Replacing the gas cap alone might pass it. It allows it to vent the fumes in the gas tank if they build up to predetermined levels. Until the fumes reach these levels, they are shunted through the charcoal canister.

I just had a look at my plugs again. Previously I was just looking at the electrode but now that I look again, something is amiss. When looking at the insulator, I see that on side is white and the other side is soot black. That is two of them. On the third, about 3/4 was white and 1/4 black. On the last plug slightly tan with a small dark area, but no real soot. Any ideas what would cause this?

NOx is only produced when the combustion chamber is about 2500 degrees F (about there)... Your engine overheating could be the sole reason for it not passing. The reason they use EGR to reduce NOx is because it helps slow the combustion process, which lowers peak cylinder temps. Also, retard you engine the maxium amount allowed, this should help to reduce NOx as well.

Man... I thought there wasn't any room under the hood of my 89 Civic... the 87 CRX actually has LESS room to work than my n600.

I removed the battery, which I'm sure hasn't been done in 10+ years based on the amount of corrosion around the terminals. I had to spray the battery with PB Blaster to get the terminals off.

Then I tried like hell to get the o2 sensor off. No luck. In case you don't know, the stock o2 sensors are practically welded on. I wrestled with it for about 1 1/2 hours before giving up. I had to get the car back together before the sun went down otherwise I'd be screwed (bad night vision... need more carrots).

Got the car back together and it won't start. Turns out the old terminals needed replacement. I went to autozone and got new terminals, and I also got a different o2 sensor socket so I can try again tomorrow.

Got back, put the terminals on, refilled the coolant overflow tank with coolant (it was empty, good call Gary) and I let the car idle until it reached operating temperature. After 15 minutes of idling and after I started pushing on the gas for it to finally get hot enough, the termostat opened, the radiator fan turned on, and the coolant started flowing. Sadly, the PB Blaster I sprayed on the o2 sensor went all over the exhaust manifold, causing some smoke when the exhaust manifold got hot enough to burn it off. Hope that doesn't last long.

I will be the victor with this o2 sensor from hell. if I can't get it off soon I'll pull the exhaust manifold on Saturday and get it off that way.

I just had a look at my plugs again. Previously I was just looking at the electrode but now that I look again, something is amiss. When looking at the insulator, I see that on side is white and the other side is soot black. That is two of them. On the third, about 3/4 was white and 1/4 black. On the last plug slightly tan with a small dark area, but no real soot. Any ideas what would cause this?
Any ideas on my plugs? Is this a mechanical problem with the engine? From looking at the electrodes it seems that the combustion is good on one side of the chamber (white side of insulator) and bad on the other (black side of the insulator).

The clean side is getting washed off by intake charge gas and air - the reason you index the plugs by facing the gap towards the intake to clean them more evenly. A loose seal on the gas cap will vent extra fumes to the engine at idle richen the mixture and raise hc emissions and carbon up the plugs.

Sounds like I need a new gas cap.

Matt: On the O2 sensor, it's time to get that whirl wind propane torch, that I told you about for the stuck transmission bolt. You need to heat the exhaust manifold and the old sensor, until it's cherry red, or as close as you can get it. When you do, you need to put as large a socket handle or wrench on their, as you can get and lefty loosey it out. It get's stuck by the heat and rust combination, to a point where it might as well be welded in. When you put the new O2 sensor in, put some anti-seize material on the threads. It may have a couple of dabs on the threads, but I usually just get a tube at Pep Boy's or wherever, so I can just put a smear on all of the threads, before reassembeling it. If you put the anti-seize on, it seems to keep them from getting as locked up solid, as your's sounds.

On space in the engine compartment, I agree with you. I have my 87 up, because I am trying to put an A/C system into it, for my daughter. I had to remove the front bumper, to get at things and it's an arrangement where you better put the inside hose on first, then the outside because you can't get to the inside hose when the outside hose is on. It is a shoe horned in, after the fact system and it's been a royal pain as a consequence.

Good Luck!

p.s. I'd retry the car with the old plugs, after you have the cooling system working, drive it a bit, then recheck the plugs for the clean/soot phenomenon?

Matt: On the radiator, on my 87, I find that it is essential to utilize the bleed screw on the left end of the head. It has to have ALL of the air out or the thermostat will continue to act flunky. It doesn't seem to be able to let the last bit of air out through the radiator cap, in some way. You just need to open the bleed with a 12mm wrench for a minute, until you get a solid stream of water, then tighten it back up.

Matt: On the radiator, on my 87, I find that it is essential to utilize the bleed screw on the left end of the head. It has to have ALL of the air out or the thermostat will continue to act flunky. It doesn't seem to be able to let the last bit of air out through the radiator cap, in some way. You just need to open the bleed with a 12mm wrench for a minute, until you get a solid stream of water, then tighten it back up.

Thanks for the info Gary. I'll do that tonight. I'm sure just adding the extra coolant helped a lot. Any time the overfill tank is empty something is bad.

I also put new NGK plugs in last night.

krousdb: Was the car fully warmed up when you had it tested? It'd run rich if it were cold. Maybe an intermittent misfire, but 239 is pretty low. How does it run? Possibly a bad cat. conv. - the Honda in-manifold convertors are prone to failure. Mine and my girlfriend's both are cracked, and hers is OBDII with a check engine light for a bad convertor.

Any way you could post a picture of the plugs?

Matt: On the O2 sensor, it's time to get that whirl wind propane torch, that I told you about for the stuck transmission bolt. You need to heat the exhaust manifold and the old sensor, until it's cherry red, or as close as you can get it. When you do, you need to put as large a socket handle or wrench on their, as you can get and lefty loosey it out. It get's stuck by the heat and rust combination, to a point where it might as well be welded in. When you put the new O2 sensor in, put some anti-seize material on the threads. It may have a couple of dabs on the threads, but I usually just get a tube at Pep Boy's or wherever, so I can just put a smear on all of the threads, before reassembeling it. If you put the anti-seize on, it seems to keep them from getting as locked up solid, as your's sounds.

Here's a though... why not just drive it around a bit and THEN try to remove it? Both the exhaust manifold and hte o2 sensor will be hot... as long as I don't touch it (or anything) I should be okay :P

Matt, are you using an O2 sensor socket? They're murder to get out with a wrench.

Matt, are you using an O2 sensor socket? They're murder to get out with a wrench.

Yep... o2 sensor socket. I tried removing it with a breaker bar last night and a 1 foot extension along with two smaller 3 inch extensions.

The only results was a broken 3 inch extension bar.

Maybe I'll remove the hood tonight and try again. The hood kept getting in my way with the breaker bar.

Or maybe I'll just go to the junkyard today and see how much work it is to get the exhaust manifold off of these cars. If it's easy I'll just do that and remove the o2 sensor that way.

Yowch! Okay then. I feel your pain...:(

I don't know if this will help, but when I changed the O2 sensor on FF#1, I removed (busted) the end of the old sensor off on purpose so I could get a short socket on the bolt part (shorter socket = less chance of torquing it off while reefing on it).

krousdb: Was the car fully warmed up when you had it tested? It'd run rich if it were cold. Maybe an intermittent misfire, but 239 is pretty low. How does it run? Possibly a bad cat. conv. - the Honda in-manifold convertors are prone to failure. Mine and my girlfriend's both are cracked, and hers is OBDII with a check engine light for a bad convertor.

Any way you could post a picture of the plugs?

I had it tested at the dealership and im sure they know to warm it up first. It runs fine but does smell like unburnt fuel. The service manager said that it wasn't the cat and recommend a tune up. I told them I would do it myself and come back later.

Yep... o2 sensor socket. I tried removing it with a breaker bar last night and a 1 foot extension along with two smaller 3 inch extensions.

The only results was a broken 3 inch extension bar.

Maybe I'll remove the hood tonight and try again. The hood kept getting in my way with the breaker bar.

Or maybe I'll just go to the junkyard today and see how much work it is to get the exhaust manifold off of these cars. If it's easy I'll just do that and remove the o2 sensor that way.

Matt: If you take your socket, extension and so forth with you, you could go for a drive up the canyon, east out of Salt Lake. If you drove it as hard and fast as it will climb that grade, I am pretty sure that it would be warm enough to come loose and you'd be able to get it out. If you drive that long uphill grade at night, pushing hard, by the time you get to the top, if you look, the exhaust manifold is a soft cherry red glow to it.

I would try doing the drive up the grade before I'd tackle taking off the exhaust manifold. You will, very likely, just encounter additional "frozen" bolts and so forth, if you go that route. Just a thought.:o

Manifold bolts on my Geo came out of the header when heated with an Oxyacetylene torch and getting them glowing red hot and we reused them. Maybe get the exhost really hot then cool the sensor with a cold wet rag to crack it loose.

Sooo, Matt: Did you get the Oxygen sensor to come out, so you could get the CRX registered, or not?

p.s. I haven't noticed anything on the 89, are you stuck, or has it been terminated?

Sooo, Matt: Did you get the Oxygen sensor to come out, so you could get the CRX registered, or not?

p.s. I haven't noticed anything on the 89, are you stuck, or has it been terminated?

Heh.. I've been rather busy lately with other things. Tonight I'm going to try a torch. Do you think a torch from home depot made for plumbing will work?

As for the sedan, All that I have to do is replace the thermostat and take the axle off to fix the axle seal, but I can't find motivation to do it. I should probably do it today thoughas I have to drive to Provo tomorrow for work.

Ahhh: Motivation issues I can totally relate to! I think what happens for me is that mentally I start unconsciously thinking about one more "but, what if", particularly when you've had restarts, as you have, largely as a function of the fact that your doing something new, relatively speaking. Hang in their, you'll get to it.

On the torch, the normal propane torch you can get at home depot or the like, might work, but they make a higher temperature torch, which is called sosomethihng like a high swirl, high temp, or something like that. It has a longer nozzle and it swirls the air and the propane together, allowing it to get a lot hotter. It get's hot enough to braze really thin sheet metal, but that's in California and I think the higher altitude their might not allow that.

It seems to me like I've seen the torch in the section where they put the MAPP gas, at Home Depot and it was called a MAPP torch. MAPP gas is just a higher burning temperature than Propane, but other than that, they both use the same attachments and so forth.

The flame end of the torch has a nozzle about 2" long with a couple of holes in the sides.

Bernzomatic calls it a "turbo charged swirl torch". They have a model JT539T and a model JTH7. The JTH7 comes with a hose, so you don't have to hold the can to guide the torch. I would recommend that over the other model, which just screws onto the top of the Propane or Mapp container. If you get this, you can use it for anything you would use their other propane torch's for, you just have to turn it down because it will get too hot, if you are just soldering with it, for example.

I checked on Harbor Freight and it looks like they have a chinese knockoff, for $19.99 and theirs a store at 3470 S. State, if you wanted to check that out.

If you use this, all you need to do is to heat the sensor right around the threads where it screws into the exhaust manifold, until it get's as hot as you can get it. Then you should be able to back it out. I've used mine to remove exhaust manifold bolts that were cross threaded and really buggered up and it has allowed me to get them off, anyway.

Good Luck!

Scan Code PO401
P0401
80
EGR Insufficient Flow Detected


EGR Insufficent Flow Detected

OK guys what would be a course of action on this engine - been doing this for over half a year and ScanGauge1 mileage indicated about 19.9mpg non-aggressive driving when she thought she was getting 39mpg HA! Maybe on that trip to Maine she did but not now!

You should be able to check the EGR manually. If you get a short piece of vacume line you can remove the line from the EGR and plug it off, then put the extra piece on the EGR and suck on it. If the engine starts to run rough, then the EGR is probably opening up and when you let it go, it should smooth back out. My guess would be that your EGR valve is either not opening all of the way, or it is bleading back closed.

how I got my o2 sensor out after it had been in the car for 200,000+ miles, was I cut the wires, leaving enough that I could splice them back together, then useing a snug fitting deep socket of the correct size and garenteed not to brake, I went after the sucker for about half an hour with an impact wrench and the air compresser turned up all the way, I think a used a bit of liquid wrench, and a propane torch, but mostly it was the air impact wrench, and those you can rent, they also make electric impact wrenchs.

You should be able to check the EGR manually. Any ideas were this sucker is hiding on the engine? All I see is intake manifold.

, Scan Code PO401
P0401
80
EGR Insufficient Flow Detected


EGR Insufficent Flow Detected

OK guys what would be a course of action on this engine - been doing this for over half a year and ScanGauge1 mileage indicated about 19.9mpg non-aggressive driving when she thought she was getting 39mpg HA! Maybe on that trip to Maine she did but not now!
The Honda V6s were bad about the egr passage in the upper intake manifold getting clogged with carbon, causing a P0401. Their fix was to drill out the EGR passage and install a metal sleeve to prevent future blockage. They also said to replace the EGR valve. If you removed the upper intake (easy job), you'd likely see that the EGR passage is completely clogged up. You could simply poke out all the carbon with a pick and reinstall the manifold without using the sleeve kit (a special drill bit is needed to install the sleeve), but it would probably clog back up in a couple of years (maybe even months, who knows?). Also, the EGR is not vacuum operated on this engine, so you wouldn't be able to test it manually. The valve itsself could also be clogged up, but I bet I fixed 50 of these when I was working at the Honda dealer, all of them had clogged EGR ports in the upper intake. Once you clean out the port, thoroughly blow it out with compressed air to be sure that there is no debris that gets into the engine. You should be able to reuse the intake and throttle body gaskets.

Any ideas were this sucker is hiding on the engine? All I see is intake manifold.

JanGeo: I don't actually have one, so I don't have any idea where it might be located. From what Dirtyoldtown described it may be a issue with the passage itself and pulling the intake manifold to get at it, may be the only way to really clean it out. I wonder if you can locate the egr valve, if you sprayed some seafoam into it, if it might unclog the carbon enough to let it get blown out?:rolleyes:

I don't think SeaFoam would hurt, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work in this case. The passage is about as big around as a pencil and maybe two inches long; it gets packed entirely full of carbon. I think the best bet would be to use a pick on the carbon then use some SeaFoam just to clean up everything else.

I'll give it a shot of foam next chance I get - oil gets changed pretty regular for a woman driver - not sure what they put in it though - she just pays and pays and thinks that is how the world works. She may end up trading it in although she can't afford any more debt right now. Needless to say she is tough on cars yet claims to be a good driver - it's not even paid for yet and she wants to trade it in. Will search the web for Tech Info on the engine.

Made some progress on the VX yesterday and today. I replaced the drivers side axle seal and the rear shoes and drums. Got my ebay compression tester today and got 175, 180, 170 and 175. That compares to 184 new and 135 min. I think the rings and valves are ok. No oil leaks now either. The last thing is the emissions.

When I first checked the plugs I noticed that all 4 had soot on 1/2 of the insulator, while the other side was white. Then I put in a spare set left over from the Del Sol. After several hundred miles, plug 1, 2 and three have no soot on the insulator, while plug 4 has the 1/2 soot 1/2 white syndrome.

Any ideas? It seems like there has been some improvement on all but #4. Im wondering if I have a clogged injector? I ran a tank of seafoam on the way home form chicago. Perhaps another? Any other things it could be?

Now you need the thing I bought a long time ago when I first got my Moto Morini - a Clear Spark plug adapter that lets you see the combustion color. You would be able to see if it was burning rich or burning oil - not used when the engine is very hot or under load, just idle and a little reving or else it blows out.

got 175, 180, 170 and 175. That compares to 184 new and 135 min.
Nice. That seems healthy. Do you have specs for acceptable variation between hi-lo cyls as well?

Any ideas? It seems like there has been some improvement on all but #4. Im wondering if I have a clogged injector?
Wouldn't that cause it to run lean?

What about plug wires and/or dist. cap (sorry, don't recall if you did those yet)? If that cylinder is missing at all, that could explain the elevated unburned HC & the soot on the plug.

Nice. That seems healthy. Do you have specs for acceptable variation between hi-lo cyls as well?


Wouldn't that cause it to run lean?

What about plug wires and/or dist. cap (sorry, don't recall if you did those yet)? If that cylinder is missing at all, that could explain the elevated unburned HC & the soot on the plug.

I think anything within +/- 10 is within acceptable variance.

You're right about the spark plug wires and distributor cap. I might replace those on my wife's car too just for the hell of it.

Wouldn't that cause it to run lean?

I was thinking that it may cause an uneven spray pattern, rich on one side and lean on another.

I just bought the proper heat range plugs and a new set of wires. Also dumped a bottle of Lucas in the tank. But before I went home I woent for a highway drive to get a baseline for highway FE before adding the belly pan. I made a 51 km round trip at 55 MPH, DWL down to 50 up hill and up to 60 on the downhills. I did not CODfish, just had the injector shutoff downhill.

66.4 MPG:D (Assuming the MID is calibrated correctly)

That beats the Del Sol by about 4 MPG and I was CODfishing in the Del Sol and also had the belly pan on. I'm hoping for 67ish with the pan. Maybe better if I can fix the HC issue.

I think I will put in my new plugs and wires now.:cool:

In addition to adding the Lucas upper cyinder lube, injector cleaner, after my highway run, I decided to test out the VTEC. Previously I assumed that when lean burn kicks out, that VTEC kicks in. Well noooo! There are three distinct modes in the VX. Lean burn is in effect when the engine is warm, the O2 is warm and the pulse width is 6.3 or lower. The second mode is non VTEC, non lean burn which is in effect when the pulse width is above 6.3. It peaks with a pulse width of 9.5. This mode is in effect until between 2500 and 3000 RPM. That is when VTEC kicks in. At full throttle above say 2700 rpm, the pulse width maxes out at 11.5-12. Holy hell does this thing pull hard (relatively speaking). It will leave the Del Sol in the dust! It is also amazing how much fuel one can burn in VTEC full throttle. For sure I cleared out the cobwebs.

That being said, I just finished installing my NGK V-Power plugs (proiper heat range) and the new plug wires. Two details of note. That 4th plug that had the 1/2 white and 1/2 black insulator... Well the black had started to turn to brown and was noticeably less sooty. Secondly, the old wires measured between 5 and 8 kOhms, shortest to longest. The new ones measures 8-10 kOhms, shortest to longest. After installation, it seems to idle smoother. But that might just be my wishful thinking.

I'm wondering about the improvement shown on plug #4. It might have been the Lucas upper cyl lub/ injector cleaner doing its job. Or it could have been the cobweb clearing VTEC run. Whatever it was, hopefully #4 will look normal after a few hundred more miles.

My preowned catalytic converter is on it's way. Soon I will be emissions testing again.....
One thing i have noticed with the VX is that compared to the Del Sol, it is difficult not to get good FE. But on the other hand, extreme FE techniques like FAS don't show much improvement over just leaving the ICE on in Lean burn mode. The result is that both the VX and the Del Sol have very similar extreme FE potential, but you just don't have to try as hard with the VX. The VX pulls away at highway speeds however, not to mention the fact that there is seating for five.
Or maybe I haven't cracked the VX code yet......

Matt: I once spent a whole day helping a friend to replace a broken tie rod end, on a Toyota Celica. We broke 3 Craftsman Gear Puller's. At the time I didn't know you can just use a sledge hammer to hit the side of the joint real hard and the whole thing just pops loose, if you have a little force on it. Anyway, got off track, we finally called a front end shop to see how much he would charge, since he already had the part. The shop said $5. I was like "no way". At that point I would have paid the $5, just to see it done. Anyway we took the car down, guy get's out a "new tool" he had just bought from Snapon, put's it on the joint, put's his airwrench on, it blipped it about 3 times and popped off. It took the guy 5 minutes, to do what we had been futzing with all day.

Anyway, on your 87 Oxygen Sensor, if it's been giving you fit's, it would be worth it just to get a quote and let someone else do it. It isn't worth getting that exasperated about, even if it does sort of tick you off to let the thing whip you. For the $5, it was worth getting whipped, maybe it will be for you, also.

Anyway, on your 87 Oxygen Sensor, if it's been giving you fit's, it would be worth it just to get a quote and let someone else do it. It isn't worth getting that exasperated about, even if it does sort of tick you off to let the thing whip you. For the $5, it was worth getting whipped, maybe it will be for you, also.

Heh... for this I'd pay $50 to get it replaced... I have no problem admitting I'm defeated.

Sometimes it might be easier to drill a new hole, clamp a new one in place.

Just checked my new plugs now that I have a few hundred miles on them. 1,2, and 3 are perfect. #4 has the soot problem, but not as bad as before. The insulator is white except for the small area adjacent to the thingy that comes up and over top of the plug tip. Whatever you cal this thing that you bend to change the gap, it has black soot from the plug base until the thingy bends 90 degrees to go over the tip. At the bend the soot stops. I popped off the valve cover and noticed nothing awry.

I noticed that the EGR valve taps into the IM off of the #4 intake runner. Im wondering if a bad EGR could cause the funky happenings on the #4 plug.

Meanwhile the Outback passed inspection even though when I took it in, the CEL was on. Evidently it turned itself off when they started it up.

I noticed that the EGR valve taps into the IM off of the #4 intake runner. Im wondering if a bad EGR could cause the funky happenings on the #4 plug.

Interesting idea. Perhaps the EGR just needs to be cleaned.

BTW, have you regretted getting the VX yet? Do you miss the del sol at all?

Interesting idea. Perhaps the EGR just needs to be cleaned.

BTW, have you regretted getting the VX yet? Do you miss the del sol at all?

+1

Interesting idea. Perhaps the EGR just needs to be cleaned.

BTW, have you regretted getting the VX yet? Do you miss the del sol at all?

No regrets, mainly because I needed more seats. The VX also has a better ride and is quieter. It also has better highway FE.

Yes, I have had to replace O2, axles and brakes at all 4 corners. But I learned a lot in the process and could easily do it again. The engine and tranny are solid and I will get this HC thing figured out eventually.

Today was another PB to work at 73MPG. The RT was 68. And again, that is according to the SuperMID which I suspect may overregister fuel consumed. Im at 300 miles right now. After hybridfest this weekend I will tear into the fuel tank to see WTF about the back pressure issue when filling the tank. Lots of things left to learn here. Maybe I will even crack the VX code.:cool:

After much wrestling with the oxygen sensor we finally took it into the nearest Pepboys. They tried to remove it but also had the same problems. They recommended going to a muffler shop in the event that bung (hehe) was ripped out they could weld it back up.

Well, $100 later my wife now has a brand new o2 sensor.

Tomorrow morning I'll make sure the spark plugs are gapped correctly (does anyone know what the gap is supposed to be at?) and I'll ensure the radiator is properly bled. Then it's retest time.

good ****.

So as I said in another post, it appears that my PCV valve is acting like an open pipe and potentially causing a vacuum leak at idle. Coincedentally, my HC problem is a idle only, so hopefully this will fix the emmissions problem.

Anyway, it turns out that you can't get a PCV valve for the CX/VX at your local auto parts store. You have to go to the Honda dealership. And they don't stock it. Maybe by Monday I will have a new one. For $17, I think it will be gold plated.....

Just passed emissions with flying colors. All it needed was a new o2 sensor, new plugs, and I'm sure that other stuff didn't hurt (that weird additive we got).

Suuuure. Just rub it in... Salt in an open wound.

My PCV valve is in but the Honda parts department decided to close before I could make it in. They will also not be open tomorrow at a time that I can make it. It looks like Saturday now.

Don't worry sir, you'll be okay. How much did you pay for it?

I didn't pay for it yet but when i pick it up it will be $17 plus tax. Like I said before, it must be gold plated.

Heckydoodle!