Suzuki TU250 [ Archive] - GasSavers.org - Helping You Save at the Pump

Greetings all!

Check out Suzuki's latest commuter bike with Fuel Injection!

http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/TU250XK9


Looks like I'll be adding one to my garage next year.

-SDF

It looks good, the price looks good, and the power looks like just good with a good 5 speeds transmission.

Post some mpg when u get one :D

$3500 for a 250cc single cylinder thumper?

The same cost, you could do better in the used bike market.. with far better performance..

My 2001 El Bandito was $1800
My 2002 SV650 was $2100

New is always more expansive, and maybe he wants the FE of a 250cc, not a 650cc, and I dont think he really put the enphase on performance.

New is always more expansive, and maybe he wants the FE of a 250cc, not a 650cc, and I dont think he really put the enphase on performance.

New is not only more expensive, new also require more resources to produce.
Maybe thread starter does not want a 650cc, but a 250cc single cylinder bike at nearly twice the cost and 1/2 the performance, is that cost efficient?

Is EF really that much more fuel efficient? carbs could be adjusted or setup to use less fuel also.

My $1699 250cc Chinese scooter get over 85 mpg regularly.. that's carb'ed.
Fuel efficiency depends more on how the vehicle is setup and operated.

Is the bike more confortable then the scooter?

Is the bike more confortable then the scooter?

Comfortable? that's a rather personal preference that varies from person to person.. but my scooter does have more storage compartments and does not require clutching and shifting in bumper to bumper traffic where most of the 250cc and below scooters are designed for.

So the real question becomes: What is the main purpose that you use a 250cc EFI motorcycle that cost $3500?

City commute? surburban traffic? highway cruising (not likely)? just to be retro/chic?

Comfortable? that's a rather personal preference that varies from person to person.. but my scooter does have more storage compartments and does not require clutching and shifting in bumper to bumper traffic where most of the 250cc and below scooters are designed for.

So the real question becomes: What is the main purpose that you use a 250cc EFI motorcycle that cost $3500?

City commute? surburban traffic? highway cruising (not likely)? just to be retro/chic?
Because thats what he want's. Not a used bike, not a torque-converter driven scotter, but a 5 speed fuel injected Sukuzi.

And I would never trust my life to a chinese powered anything.

Jim T.

Because thats what he want's. Not a used bike, not a torque-converter driven scotter, but a 5 speed fuel injected Sukuzi.

And I would never trust my life to a chinese powered anything.

Jim T.

It's fine if that is what he wants, but $3500 for a brand new 250cc single cylinder retro looking 5 speed motorcycle is not cost effective (not to mention the extra meterials it requires to produce) when one could easily find used motorcycles that are superior in performance and less in cost.

You life already depend on Chinese made products.. powered or not, you just don't realize it yet.

I like it. I would paint it another color since it is only available in red though.

It's fine if that is what he wants, but $3500 for a brand new 250cc single cylinder retro looking 5 speed motorcycle is not cost effective (not to mention the extra meterials it requires to produce) when one could easily find used motorcycles that are superior in performance and less in cost.

You life already depend on Chinese made products.. powered or not, you just don't realize it yet.
Used entry sized motorcycles don't go down much in value. Even over a twenty year period. Go find a 20 year old 250cc Honda Rebel, and I bet that used you'd pay half or more of current retail. That's cost effective.

Next, there is an actual warranty for manufacturers defects with a large dealer network. The Chinese manufacturers really don't have that. I will sat that I believe some parts for Japanese motorcycles are getting made in China, etc.

Finally, it's what he wants.

Thread starter didn't specify that he wants a entry sized motorcycle.

Both of my 600cc+ motorcycles were purchased (this month) less than $2200 each.. and when time comes (next spring) to sell them, I'm likely to get over $2000 on each of them.

Come to think of it, even my car cost less than $2000 to purchase and fixed up.

Warranty means little to me since I pretty much do most if not all the maintenance/repairs myself.

Thread starter didn't specify that he wants a entry sized motorcycle.
Does that matter? It is what he wants, and that's how that bike has been marketed and resold. That includes Honda Rebel's, Ninja 250's, Buell Blast's, etc. Still makes it a great commuter bike.

For him, FI seems to be what's swaying his purchase. But he's neither you nor I.

I guess it doesn't matter if cost is not a consideration for the purchase of a motorcycle. I consider most member who post on this forum to be cost (and material) conscious since we are gas savers and try to be fuel efficient (and use less material by buying used).

BTW, Honda Rebel (MSRP $3200), Ninja 250 (MRSP $3500, likely to be found for under $2000 used), they are twin cylinder motorcycles, they will likely last longer than a single cylinder Buell Blast or Suzuki TU250.

Wear more on a twin 250 vs a 250 single? Or vs a 500 single? Not sure why you'd decide to through that out. If you have data that supports facts that more cylinders generates durability, I'd like to see it.

And yes, anything can be had for too little money based on a seller's desire to move a product or, neglect. Yes, you can get an '86 Rebel for less than $2k, but with a KBB of just under $1500, a set of tires, a carb cleaning, peace of mind, AND warranty are actually valuable opportunities for many that add up and can far exceed the difference in cost for new.

Nothin' like trying to fix your "deal" on the side of the road or calling your friend or your mom to give you a ride.

And it still doesn't come with FI.

Good day!

Engine reving any rpm, a twin cyclinder engine, each cylinder would have 1/2 the cylinder movement than a single cylinder engine.. less ring wear, less cylinder wear, less topend wear... seems to me common sense.. Have you ever ridden a single cyclinder engine bike at 8000 rpm?

Like I said before: FI, warranty.. those are not consideration when I purchase used bikes. IMO, FI is not that much better than carb.. warranty is there only to get someone to buy new or feel warm and fuzzy prior to the purchase, when something goes wrong while you're riding, you're screwed just the same. I do the work myself so I know things are done right and proper so there is no need for warranty. Learning a skill of finxing things yourself is no that difficult, I started from zero as anyone else and it is something that no one can take away from you.

Engine reving any rpm, a twin cyclinder engine, each cylinder would have 1/2 the cylinder movement than a single cylinder engine.. less ring wear, less cylinder wear, less topend wear... seems to me common sense.. Have you ever ridden a single cyclinder engine bike at 8000 rpm?

Like I said before: FI, warranty.. those are not consideration when I purchase used bikes. IMO, FI is not that much better than carb.. warranty is there only to get someone to buy new or feel warm and fuzzy prior to the purchase, when something goes wrong while you're riding, you're screwed just the same. I do the work myself so I know things are done right and proper so there is no need for warranty. Learning a skill of finxing things yourself is no that difficult, I started from zero as anyone else and it is something that no one can take away from you.


Lots to talk about here:

The Suzuki is cammed for low RPM torque. At comfortable driving rpms, say 4000 rpm, its piston rings are probably going slower than a high strung Ninja 250 twin at 6000 rpm. I can't see any difference in piston or ring life.

Carbed engines usually run rich. Especially if they're equipped with a manual choke like my Honda 2002 XR650L thumper. In cold weather I often have to drive 3-5 miles before the engine warms up enough to keep it from stalling when I let out the clutch. This hurts my commuting mileage. Then it gets better mileage IF I remember to take the choke off. Best tanks are only about 55 mpg.

I'm all for a closed loop FI thumper. It will get better mileage than a carbed bike in the real world. Just look at the mileage of the new FI 883 Harleys. They're rated better than my Honda.

The Suzuki GZ250 had a claimed mileage of >80 mpg. This new 250 with FI should get a lot better mileage. Do I hear 100?

If anybody can report real world mileage over 100, I'm going to trot down to my local Suz dealer and trade in my old red beast.

All I know about bikes is the Buell Blast is extremely tempting, and would be a cake candidate for a megasquirt EFI system. Cheap reliable EFI for pretty much every vehicle out there.

cat0200, you just don't get it. That is what he wants, not you or I or anyone else. Just him. He doesn't want used. Get over it already. You and I may love working on older bikes but that doesn't mean he does. Sure he can learn how to work on one, but maybe he doesn't want to. GIVE IT A REST!:rolleyes:

Jim T.

How about you give it a rest? I don't assume of your position.
I merely stated my opinion of the Suzuki TU250, and asked some questions about its cost effectiveness. What have you offered in this thread Jim. T?


http://www.suzukicycles.com/images/ProductImages/logo/500/TU250XK9.jpg

$3500 for a 250cc fi thumper with a rear drum brake, non-adjustable suspensions, 5-speed, (looks to be like) non-radial tubed tires.. somehow I don't see this thumper capable of cruising comfortably with highway traffic at 70 mph for extended period of time like the Rebel or Ninja 250.

What is the fuel mileage of the new FI 883 Harleys?? as good as my $1699, 250cc carbed Chinese scooter?

Engine reving any rpm, a twin cyclinder engine, each cylinder would have 1/2 the cylinder movement than a single cylinder engine.. less ring wear, less cylinder wear, less topend wear... seems to me common sense.. Have you ever ridden a single cyclinder engine bike at 8000 rpm?
When one cylinder moves in a multi, the others move too. And there's more surfaces available for wear and support of bearings, etc.

Looks like a nice commute bike. The standard design is still my favorite for comfort. The single cylinder engine has fewer moving parts than a twin and maintenance should be easier. It's probably made in China and there's nothing wrong with that. Even BMW is having some of their engines built in China.

Q

How about you give it a rest? I don't assume of your position.
I merely stated my opinion of the Suzuki TU250, and asked some questions about its cost effectiveness. What have you offered in this thread Jim. T?


http://www.suzukicycles.com/images/ProductImages/logo/500/TU250XK9.jpg

$3500 for a 250cc fi thumper with a rear drum brake, non-adjustable suspensions, 5-speed, (looks to be like) non-radial tubed tires.. somehow I don't see this thumper capable of cruising comfortably with highway traffic at 70 mph for extended period of time like the Rebel or Ninja 250.

What is the fuel mileage of the new FI 883 Harleys?? as good as my $1699, 250cc carbed Chinese scooter?

I didn't "assume" on your position, it was very clear from your first post. You started ragging on the OP about all sorts of irrelivent bs, none of which the OP asked for. It's right here for all to see.

Jim T.

and BTW I like thumpers too.

When one cylinder moves in a multi, the others move too. And there's more surfaces available for wear and support of bearings, etc.

I've ridden thumper dirt bikes, rebuilt topends on them every season due to the sustained high rpm engine operation, seen first hand what cylinder head/rings damage look like when you sustain high engine rpm. Bearing damage, not so much..

Twin cylinder engine do not suffer the same heat related type damage as a thumper engine at sustined high rpm engine operation.

Again, have you ridden a thumper at 8000 rpm for any sustained amount of time?


I didn't "assume" on your position, it was very clear from your first post. You started ragging on the OP about all sorts of irrelivent bs, none of which the OP asked for. It's right here for all to see.

Jim T.

cat0200, you just don't get it. That is what he wants, not you or I or anyone else. Just him. He doesn't want used. Get over it already. You and I may love working on older bikes but that doesn't mean he does. Sure he can learn how to work on one, but maybe he doesn't want to. GIVE IT A REST!:rolleyes:

Jim T.

Because thats what he want's. Not a used bike, not a torque-converter driven scotter, but a 5 speed fuel injected Sukuzi.

And I would never trust my life to a chinese powered anything.

Jim T.

So far, all three of your posts in this thread contain assumptions, not only towars me, but also towards thread starter's preference of what he wants.
Would you disagree that at $3499 there are no better performing bikes on the market (new or used) to be better than a Suzuki TU250, am I wrong on that one??

Again, what have you offered in this thread, Jim. T?.. other than trying to make me feel bad and how badly you want to be right?

I've ridden thumper dirt bikes, rebuilt topends on them every season due to the sustained high rpm engine operation, seen first hand what cylinder head/rings damage look like when you sustain high engine rpm. Bearing damage, not so much..

Twin cylinder engine do not suffer the same heat related type damage as a thumper engine at sustined high rpm engine operation.

Again, have you ridden a thumper at 8000 rpm for any sustained amount of time?








So far, all three of your posts in this thread contain assumptions, not only towars me, but also towards thread starter's preference of what he wants.
Would you disagree that at $3499 there are no better performing bikes on the market (new or used) to be better than a Suzuki TU250, am I wrong on that one??

Again, what have you offered in this thread, Jim. T?.. other than trying to make me feel bad and how badly you want to be right?

Why would I ride ANYTHING at 8k sustained for a long period of time?
And wether or not there are better new or used bikes available has no bearing on the OP's original post.
I'm sorry if you feel that this was about what's right and wrong, it's not. I've assumed nothing here.:confused:

Jim T.

I fed my kitty chocolate, Is that wrong?

Jesus......start acting like adults. I've seen 7 year olds act more civily.

It's words on a computer screen written by some random person that knows nothing about you, and you're letting them get under your skin for no reason at all. Move on already.

I posed simple questions in my previous post, appearantly they were too difficult to answer.

My opinion is that $3500 (or less) could be better spent on used bikes that would out perform the Suzuki TU250 as a street commuter.

I just found out my girlfriend had a sex change 5 years ago. Should I break up with her?

I posed simple questions in my previous post, appearantly they were too difficult to answer.

My opinion is that $3500 (or less) could be better spent on used bikes that would out perform the Suzuki TU250 as a street commuter.

And I replied, is it YOUR $3,500 bucks? No it isn't.:rolleyes:
And what part of "Why would I ride ANYTHING at 8k sustained for a long period of time?" did you misinterpret? Your question was irrelevant to why the OP likes the Suzuki TU250 anyway.

You sir are fairly dense aren't you?

Jim T.

I like the bike, and certain people have no preception of what constitutes a civilized, rational discussion.

regards
gary

And I replied, is it YOUR $3,500 bucks? No it isn't.:rolleyes:
And what part of "Why would I ride ANYTHING at 8k sustained for a long period of time?" did you misinterpret? Your question was irrelevant to why the OP likes the Suzuki TU250 anyway.

You sir are fairly dense aren't you?

Jim T.


Actually, my questions could and should be answered by simple yes or no, and you provided no anwer for either of my followng questions:

Have you ridden a thumper at 8000 rpm for any sustained amount of time?

Would you disagree that at $3499 there are no better performing bikes on the market (new or used) to be better than a Suzuki TU250, am I wrong on that one??

Simple "yes" or "no" answers, please. I will explain the relevence once you've provided your answers. Thank you.

Assumption of me being "dense" isn't necessary, but rather insuting, which seems to be something you do most in this thread.

I've been riding motorcycles for over 40 years and I used to be a motorcycle mechanic.

I have not ridden a thumper at 8000 RPM for any sustained time period. My thumpers all maxed out around the 7000 RPM range with power dropping off rapidly after that. My current 200cc Lifan dual sport also maxes out at around 7000 which is perfect for the way I ride it. Nice wide power band. I have ridden my old CX500 at over 8000 RPM for hours at a time with no problem but the engine was designed for that.

Comparing performance of $3499 bikes is a matter of opinion. Not everybody wants a plastic covered sport bike or cruiser style twin. Some of us like the simplicity, comfort, and looks of a single cylinder standard. Sure you could go faster on a Ninja 250 but not everyone wants to go fast.

Q



Actually, my questions could and should be answered by simple yes or no, and you provided no anwer for either of my followng questions:

Have you ridden a thumper at 8000 rpm for any sustained amount of time?

Would you disagree that at $3499 there are no better performing bikes on the market (new or used) to be better than a Suzuki TU250, am I wrong on that one??

Simple "yes" or "no" answers, please. I will explain the relevence once you've provided your answers. Thank you.

Assumption of me being "dense" isn't necessary, but rather insuting, which seems to be something you do most in this thread.

Actually, my questions could and should be answered by simple yes or no, and you provided no anwer for either of my followng questions:

[Have you ridden a thumper at 8000 rpm for any sustained amount of time?
And AGAIN I'll say why would you? short of a four-stroke motorcross engine there is NO relevence to a 250cc street bike. But I did ride a Sukuki GT185 twin, two-stroke at 8.5k for over 90 miles once long ago. I've riden but never owned a four stroke single. No.

Would you disagree that at $3499 there are no better performing bikes on the market (new or used) to be better than a Suzuki TU250, am I wrong on that one???
Is a Ninja250 faster? Probably. Is a five year old SV250 cheaper? Probably. Are either of them a brand new Suzuki GU250 with fuel injection and a warranty? No.

Simple "yes" or "no" answers, please. I will explain the relevence once you've provided your answers. Thank you.
Done

Assumption of me being "dense" isn't necessary, but rather insuting, which seems to be something you do most in this thread.
It was an assumption based on your first post which totally ignored the fact that the OP asked for nothing in his post, nothing. he simply posted up a bike link more or less saying "looky here guys this is neat isn't it?". You went totally off base on your "buy like I do or we'll all die in the earth's impending implosion" rant, or the "why buy new because I always buy used and you should too or we'll all die in the earth's impending implosion" rant.
At that point I was no longer assuming your level of density, It was verified.
Besides I bought two used bikes this year so that makes up for the OP buying one new one right?;)

Jim T.

better performing 250cc standard bikes. I honestly can't think of one, the honda nighthawk 250 is a standard but with no disk brake to be found I hardly think it would equal the tu250. If we are comparing class to class this is the best in it's class if you want to lump all 250's together then go ahead but that is an unfair comparison. Look at 250 standard bikes side by side and this one would be the better bike.


POWER
nighthawk has a 234cc engine
tu250 has a 249cc engine


SAFETY
nighthawk has drum brakes front and rear
tu250 has Disk front drum rear
then we get into ease of operation
nighthawk has a carburetor (just one for both cylinders)
tu250 has EFI (no choke to mess with no float bowl and fewer moving parts)

finally cost NEW for NEW
night hawk cost's $3699
tu250 cost $3499
$200 cheaper than a lesser competitor
I can see why the OP likes the tu250

What would you think the engine rpmrange would be the little TU250 to keep up with traffic on highways up to say, 70 mph?

Why limit a $3499 bike purchase to 250cc or below?

My 2001 Suzuki Bandit 600 was purchased at $1800
My 2002 SV650 was purchased $2100
Both bikes purchased from Craigslist this past month, both out perform TU250 and seems to me far better purchase, too.

Reliable used bikes that do not need warranty and out perform a Suzuki TU250 are plenty available at less than $3499.

Hey Cat, do you need to post the same information twice?

"Outperform"

You assume that is what the OP wants, and you are wrong.

Your used bikes loose the economy comparison, so they do not outperform his choice.

You assume the OP wants what you want, and again you are wrong.

You assume the OP wants to deal with used and take his chances. Again you are wrong, he made it obvious he had already made his decision, and could afford the price.

I have owned bikes that would eat your choices for lunch. Does the fact that I paid less than you did make me right. I guess using your standards, it does.

regards
gary

Wrong I could be, but I also spent less money for highway capable motorcycle that more than likely out brakes and out acceerates Suzuki TU250...

Fuel economically is TU250 going to get better milage than 50 mgh at highway speed? I doubt it.

Tell me, what kind of motorcycle have you seen eaten another for lunch? I've never seen motorcycles eating each other.

And your CO emissions are probably 5 times the FI bike.

regards
gary

And your CO emissions are probably 5 times the FI bike.

regards
gary

3 times at the most, 5 times, not likely unless I have 1250cc displacement... but my operating time will likely be shorter for traveling the same amount of given distance... less operating time, less emissions.

If you really want less emission, burn calories, not oil..pedal a bike.

Carburetor versus FI with DFCO. You're dumping many times the unburned HC. In fact think 0 to whatever yours might be, everytime you decelerate. Think ancient obsolete British sports cars of the 60S.

Raw fuel, and you were worried about conservation of materials.

regards
gary

Carburetor versus FI with DFCO. You're dumping many times the unburned HC. In fact think 0 to whatever yours might be, everytime you decelerate. Think ancient obsolete British sports cars of the 60S.

Raw fuel, and you were worried about conservation of materials.

regards
gary


Ancient obsolete British sports cars of the 60S, is not likely to out accelerate or out brake my $1800 used motorcycle that average over 50 mpg..

Did you pass English comp? The analogy is your carbed bike is as bad as those old clumkers with loads of unburned fuel dumping out the tailpipe when you left off the gas, regardless of your mileage. A 58 VW got close to 43 and you didn't get wet in bad weather.

You opened that can of worms with the comment about conserving resources, while you are a gross polluter, dumping unburned fuel into my atmosphere, when you have a FI option that eliminates the problem.

My VX carries 5 people and beats your carbed bike.

When the OP gets HIS CHOICE, I hope he gets a hundred MPG. Might even have to buy one for myself. Retired and not in any hurry anyway.

regards
gary

Heck, I bought an old full dress Goldwing last year for $800.00. Will cruise at over 100 mph and has gotten over 50 mpg a couple times on trips (not at 100 mph). That doesn't mean everyone want's a Goldwing.

Q

Wrong I could be, but I also spent less money for highway capable motorcycle that more than likely out brakes and out acceerates Suzuki TU250...

Fuel economically is TU250 going to get better milage than 50 mgh at highway speed? I doubt it.

Tell me, what kind of motorcycle have you seen eaten another for lunch? I've never seen motorcycles eating each other.

LOL, if you want less emissions move out of Philly.

reagrds
gary

Did you pass English comp? The analogy is your carbed bike is as bad as those old clumkers with loads of unburned fuel dumping out the tailpipe when you left off the gas, regardless of your mileage. A 58 VW got close to 43 and you didn't get wet in bad weather.

I have to say, I have never experienced anything as such. Seems to me you have way more experience at polluting than I do.

You opened that can of worms with the comment about conserving resources, while you are a gross polluter, dumping unburned fuel into my atmosphere, when you have a FI option that eliminates the problem.

Calling names isn't necessary, how can you know that my motorcycle pollute more than your vehicle? your atomsphere? I doubt FI is any less polluting than a properly setup carburated vehicle.

My VX carries 5 people and beats your carbed bike.

Your VX cost how much to purchase?
Your VX capable of lane spliting in bumper to bumper traffic?
Your VX is not likely to out accelerate or out brake my $1800 motorcycle neither.


When the OP gets HIS CHOICE, I hope he gets a hundred MPG. Might even have to buy one for myself. Retired and not in any hurry anyway.

regards
gary

Whatever the OP chooses is his choice, whether it be economical is determined by the amount he spends, if better performing motorcycles could be found for less money, I'd say that's more economical, regardless of warranty availability.



LOL, if you want less emissions move out of Philly.

reagrds
gary

How is this comment of yours relevant to this thread? :confused:

Heck, I bought an old full dress Goldwing last year for $800.00. Will cruise at over 100 mph and has gotten over 50 mpg a couple times on trips (not at 100 mph). That doesn't mean everyone want's a Goldwing.

Q

Would you consider your $800 Goldwing a better economic choice than a $3499 250cc single cylinder FI motorcycle with a rear drum brake and non-radial tires?

I just found out my girlfriend had a sex change 5 years ago. Should I break up with her?
Maybe, but buy her a TU250 first.

I've never been a fan of the standard style of bike. I like something where it doesn't matter if it gets dinged up a bit or not like a dual sport. I like Suzuki's DR200 for getting around. It's definately light weight, and the upright riding position provides terrific visibility. I just wish I could justify getting one, but my commute is only 4 miles and it takes me 1-1/2 months to go through a single tank of gas in the car. Even the motored bicycle is hardly saving me any money on fuel.

For me yes but not for everybody. I'm in a position where I can have several bikes in the stable. I wanted the Goldwing for trips but around town it sucks so I ride my smaller bikes. Best money I ever spent on a new bike was the $1375.00 I spent on the Lifan 200cc dual sport a year ago. Makes a good economical around town bike and is great for playing on the trails.

Single cylinder engines have some advantages as do fuel injection, rear drum brakes, and bias ply tires.

Q


Would you consider your $800 Goldwing a better economic choice than a $3499 250cc single cylinder FI motorcycle with a rear drum brake and non-radial tires?

Single cylinder engines have some advantages as do fuel injection, rear drum brakes, and bias ply tires.

Q

I'm sure they do, but for $3499??

Like I said before, Ninja 250 is about that price range.. dual disc brakes, 6-speed, dual radial tires, rev up to 13,000 rpm... not that I like a bike with full fairing or sport bike looks.. it seems like a better value for $3499 than a Suzuki TU250..

Gentlemen, cat0200 simply does not get it. Give it up. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
His only purpose here is to argue his view. It's his opinion and he's stuck with it. He can't reply to anything with a straight answer except "you should all not buy a TU250 but instead buy used POS like me."
cat0200, did you buy two similar bikes so you could use one for a parts bike?

Jim T.

oh and where are my relevance answers I was promised? Too busy arguing your limited view with others? :confused:

Two old bikes versus one new.

More insurance

A lot more mechanical issues

Exponentailly more pollution to add to the existing accumulation

Twice the parts needing potential replacement

Twice the deterioration

Twice the chance of theft

We read about members getting 80 MPG with Ninja 250s, the OP's choice could potentially get 100 if driven conservatively, which is what it is designed for in the first place.

Assuming it gets close to that the real cost difference may actually tip in his favor, if you choose to look at this objectively, like considering the cost of space where you store two versus one bike.

regards
gary

Gentlemen, cat0200 simply does not get it. Give it up. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
His only purpose here is to argue his view. It's his opinion and he's stuck with it. He can't reply to anything with a straight answer except "you should all not buy a TU250 but instead buy used POS like me."
cat0200, did you buy two similar bikes so you could use one for a parts bike?

Jim T.

oh and where are my relevance answers I was promised? Too busy arguing your limited view with others? :confused:

I promised you nothing, I simply said that I will explain.. and I have been more than polite to be on the receiving end of your mockery.. which IMO displays you inability to argue your points effectively and intelligently. Your attempt to convince the rest of posters in this thread to give up on their arguements is assumption that everyone else should think like you do.

If you've never ridden a thumper at sustained high rpm operation, you don't know what kind of mechinical issues that may araise from operating a thumper at high rpm, more than likely, you have no expereience rebuilding a topend of a thumper.. air-cooled thumper engines are not meant for sustaine high rpm operation, the engine temperature does not stay as consistant as a water-cooled engine, valve, cylinder head, cylinder wall all suffere a great deal when the engine temperature vary a great deal.

I'm not sure of you second answer, I see it as no, that means you personally can not find a better purchase for $3499 than a Suzuki TU250, if that's the case, you seem to be less qualified to make judgement on what's a good purchase for motorcycle.

Oh, and my used POS, as you put it, will out perform your vehicle.. and will be sold for more than I purchased them next riding season..

Two old bikes versus one new.

More insurance

A lot more mechanical issues

Exponentailly more pollution to add to the existing accumulation

Twice the parts needing potential replacement

Twice the deterioration

Twice the chance of theft

We read about members getting 80 MPG with Ninja 250s, the OP's choice could potentially get 100 if driven conservatively, which is what it is designed for in the first place.

Assuming it gets close to that the real cost difference may actually tip in his favor, if you choose to look at this objectively, like considering the cost of space where you store two versus one bike.

regards
gary

Two old bikes that cost combined $160 to insure annually.

Two old bikes with combined cost of $3900 to purchase, both outperform a retro-wannabe brand new bike that cost $3499 without tax.

Air-cooled thumper, like the Suzuki TU250 is more likely to break down than a water-cooled twin or oil-cooled 4 cyclinder motorcycle, both of which have proven reliability in real world for the last 8 years or more.

I could sell both of my bikes and get $4000 next season, easily.
Do you think you could find a used Suzuki TU250 that fetch for more than its purchased price by the time it is 6 years old?

Oh, and my used POS, as you put it, will out perform your vehicle.. and will be sold for more than I purchased them next riding season..
If you think that an SV650 will outperform a 06 Honda VFR800, then you truly ARE delusional.

Jim T.

and don't worry too much about what I post about you, everyone else here has pretty much figured your BS out by now.

plus I buy bikes to ride, not sell.

If you think that an SV650 will outperform a 06 Honda VFR800, then you truly ARE delusional.

Jim T.

and don't worry too much about what I post about you, everyone else here has pretty much figured your BS out by now.

plus I buy bikes to ride, not sell.

I don't see a VFR800 listed as your vehicle.. all I see are:

2000 Contour (SOLD)
Mazdaspeed3
9.39L/100KM
25.05 MPG(US)

maybe you should add it to your list just to prove that you actually own a motorcycle..

Wanna prove your words on a track day? I'll provide housing for your visit to Mt. Pocono Racetrack for a few days, take a road trip on your VFR, come to ride a trackday weekend.. I'll ride my SV650S or Bandit 600.. I'll even help you get your VFR800 tapped up for track use.

http://www.projansky.com/motorcycle/school/class/images/poconomapL.gif

I bought a 2000 VFR800 with 16,000 mi. for $2900 without warranty in 2003, sold it for $2900 in August this year with 28,000+ miles on the odometer. I'd say it was a better purchase than $3499 Suzuki TU250.

I buy bikes that I ride and sell; I've ridden and sold many bikes; I've made some good money selling my used bikes.

Both of my motorcycles bought last month I've put over 300 and 600 miles on each one respectively according to my GasLogs.. how many miles have you ridden your VFR800 last month.. more than my combined 900 miles on both my bikes?

I enjoy riding, I enjoy working on bikes.. even though they may pollute more than a 250cc single cylinder FI Suzuki TU250.. but they offer me enjoyment that a TU250 can not offer and they cost less.

I don't see a VFR800 listed as your vehicle.. all I see are:

2000 Contour (SOLD)
Mazdaspeed3
9.39L/100KM
25.05 MPG(US)

maybe you should add it to your list just to prove that you actually own a motorcycle..

I bought a 2000 VFR800 with 16,000 mi. for $2900 without warranty, without title in 2003, sold it for $2900 in August this year with 28,000+ miles on the odometer. I'd say it was a better purchase than $3499 Suzuki TU250.

I buy bikes that I ride and sell; I've ridden and sold many bikes; I've made some good money selling my used bikes.

Both of my motorcycles bought last month I've put over 300 and 600 miles on each one respectively according to my GasLogs.. how many miles have you ridden your VFR800 last month.. more than my combined 900 miles on both my bikes?

I enjoy riding, I enjoy working on bikes.. even though they may pollute more than a 250cc single cylinder FI Suzuki TU250.. but they offer me enjoyment that a TU250 can not offer and they cost less.

Oh we're going to throw out the "how many miles have you ridden, tired old arguement. Well if you must know I'm driving to pick up the Viffer Saturday. But I have logged over 500k in the last 28 years of street riding. I sold my 06 Triumph Sprint in 07 with 36k on it. I owned it fifeteen months. I've ridden in sun, rain, snow, sleet, and in above 100 degree temps. I still right now own four bikes, just because they are not in my mileage logs does not mean they aren't there. I ride because I love to ride, not worry about gas mileage. Jesus, I've owned more bikes (35+) than you've been walking on this planet in years dude!

Now own,
1991 Kawasaki Vulcan 1500 presently under restoration (78k on it)
1972 Kawasaki H2 720 due for restoration in 09.
1981 Kawasaki LTD 440 also due for resroration in 09.
1970 Honda Trail 90's (2) one running, one not
1978 Hondamatic 400 (3.1k)
and Saturday a 2006 Hondae VFR800

I didn't ride at all in October due to working out of town, but in September I logged 1,800 miles on a dam Hondamatic 400! All local farting around and going for a coffee all within ten miles of my house.

I don't need to buy and sell bikes for income, I'm paying $7,500 for an 06 viffer with 2,2k and a full warranty AND a title. And I don't really care what it's worth in three or four years because I'm not going to sell it. And I'm paying cash for it. And since I made 47k writing 95 insurance claims in 29 days in Louisville, KY I'm taking the month of November off to goof-off and ride the piss out of it.

The only drawback to all these vehicles is oil changes generate a LOT of used oil.

Don't even try the how much do you ride crap with me. :p

Jim T.

Good thing I kept pictures of the plane before I sold it, nobody would believe i actually had owned one. (sarcasm, sarcasm)

I never said that I need to buy and sell bikes, much less for income.. though they have been lucrative for me. I said that I enjoy riding, working on bikes.

$7500 that's a pretty good deal..
With all the miles that you ride, 500k in 28 years, that's about 17k miles a year.

Annually (on the VFR if you put 17K miles on it) you would probably spend $400-500 labor valve adjustment on that V-tec engine... $200-300 labor for that ABS brake fluid change.... plus chain/sprocket/tires/brake pads/oil/filters.. maybe $600-800 consumables for your VFR, since you are not going to sell it.. none of that covered by warranty.

I tend to sell a bike after I've ridden it to the point that it needs replacing comsumables.

So you ride some miles and have time off? how about riding up here in November to do some track day with your VFR against my SV650S? ride the piss out of it as you said.. more likely you have to piss before it runs out of fuel.

My smurf powered bike gets great performance, and only pollutes blue poop. I built it with three toothpicks, and a flashlight.

I have to say, I have never experienced anything as such. Seems to me you have way more experience at polluting than I do.



Calling names isn't necessary, how can you know that my motorcycle pollute more than your vehicle? your atomsphere? I doubt FI is any less polluting than a properly setup carburated vehicle.

YOUR GRAMMAR IS ALMOST AS POLLUTING AS YOUR CARBED BIKES


Your VX cost how much to purchase?


LESS THAN YOUR TWO BIKES, BETTER MILEAGE, YEAR AROUND OPERATION
GAME SET MATCH


Your VX capable of lane spliting in bumper to bumper traffic?


YOUR DRIVING HABITS ARE EQUALLY LACKING. IS THIS THE WAY TO BETTER MILEAGE? SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THE WAY TO A MORGUE. I GUESS I AM NOT IN AS BIG A HURRY TO GET THERE AS YOU SEEM TO BE.


Your VX is not likely to out accelerate or out brake my $1800 motorcycle neither.

TRY EITHER -DOUBLE NEGATIVE-POOR GRAMMAR AGAIN. MAYBE YOU NEED TO GO TO SCHOOL INSTEAD OF A TRACK.


Whatever the OP chooses is his choice, whether it be economical is determined by the amount he spends, if better performing motorcycles could be found for less money, I'd say that's more economical, regardless of warranty availability.

AGAIN YOU JUST DONT GET IT, YOU ASSUME HE NEEDS TO WORK ON HIS OWN.


How is this comment of yours relevant to this thread? :confused:


MORE RELEVANT THAn ALL OF YOUR REPLIES COMBINED. MAYBE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER MORE EDUCATION SO YOU CAN MAKE MONEY LIKE JIM T, OR ME, AND NOT HAVE TO BE YOUR OWN MECHANIC, ONLY TO SELL YOUR BIKES "WHEN THEIR SERVICES NEED TO BE PERFORMED". YOU SOUND LIKE A REAL JEWEL TO DEAL WITH. FOUND ANY GOOD SUCKERS LATELY!

regards
gary

Wow...takes a real man to challenge some random person behind a screen to a race. That'll teach everybody whose opinion is right and whose opinion is wrong when dealing with a subject matter where nobody gives a rat's *** about speed or the racer's opinions on whose vehicle is better.


I'm a chevy truck guy. I don't like everything they do to their trucks, but I like them compared to ford or dodge. That's my opinion and what is best for MY driving habits, repair skills, maintenance costs, vehicle storage, and vehicle usage. Does that mean my old 93 chevy is THE best truck option out there, bar none? Hell no. Just for me.

Grow up. Opinions are like *******s, everybody's got one and they all stink. We're all sick of hearing about opinions here when this guy (who like small displacement engines) just wanted a few bits of input and the people giving opinions can't get past their own damn inflated egos enough to just shut the hell up.

Sure, can't win in an argument, pick on my grammar.. at least I know that $3499 is to much to spend on a bike like a Suzuki TU250... and either one of my motorcycle can out pace your Civic VX anyday, even in bumper to bumper traffic.

Since you can't lane split in your vehicle, you don't know how to do it safely and more than likely, don't know how to drive effectively.

Suckers are easy found in you, if you believe that $3499 for a Suzuki TU250 is actually cost effective. If you can't tell that one on your own, all your education doesn't seem to be help you if you lack common sense.

Drive your bike on down to Virginia when there is a sheet of ice on the road.

Try your "lane splitting" on the DC beltway, or I95 south of there on a rainy evening with a bunch of other "lane splitters" to meet you in front of a Peterbilt.

Maybe go for 500 miles in a pouring rain without having to refill your tank.

It took me exactly 34 hours of installing a sheet stone veneer on the side of the house I built, to make enough money to buy that bike, or my VX.

Oh yes, and when I sold someone any vehicle, they did not have to drive it to someones service department IMMEDIATELY. All services were up to date, because I always treated people with some personal integrity.

Maybe you should look up the definition of the word.

regards
gary

Drive your bike on down to Virginia when there is a sheet of ice on the road.

Try your "lane splitting" on the DC beltway, or I95 south of there on a rainy evening with a bunch of other "lane splitters" to meet you in front of a Peterbilt.

Maybe go for 500 miles in a pouring rain without having to refill your tank.

Those senerio you want me to do seem lacking common sense for safety, similar to you idea of lane-spliting. Actually, I have lane-splitted on the Beltway when it is bumper to bumper traffic moving below 10 mph. Lane splitting at below 25 mph in that traffic was safe and fuel efficient.

It took me exactly 34 hours of installing a sheet stone veneer on the side of the house I built, to make enough money to buy that bike, or my VX.

What bike are you talking about? is a number figure for the price you paid for your VX too much for you to express?

Oh yes, and when I sold someone any vehicle, they did not have to drive it to someones service department IMMEDIATELY. All services were up to date, because I always treated people with some personal integrity.

Maybe you should look up the definition of the word.

regards
gary

I never trust anyone selling a used vehicle unless I test drive or test ride it, easy enough to walk away if I don't get to do so, doesn't take much education to know that one.

Lane splitting=Reckless driving in Virginia.

Now you decide to add the 25 MPH caveat, still Reckless in VA. Come on down and help us balance the budget with your payment of the $500 fine.

Obviously you wouldn't trust anyone selling you a vehicle, since no one should trust you to sell them one that doesn't need service immediately.

Did you actually finish high school with that little reading comprehension, or did you loose it sliding off the racetrack.

No wonder you need to repeat yourself.

done here, my apologies to the rest who have to wade through this.

gary

Lane splitting=Reckless driving in Virginia.

Now you decide to add the 25 MPH caveat, still Reckless in VA. Come on down and help us balance the budget with your payment of the $500 fine.

Obviously you wouldn't trust anyone selling you a vehicle, since no one should trust you to sell them one that doesn't need service immediately.

Did you actually finish high school with that little reading comprehension, or did you loose it sliding off the racetrack.

No wonder you need to repeat yourself.

done here, my apologies to the rest who have to wade through this.

gary

I only lane split when traffic is bumper to bumper, I've not given indication that I do otherwise at high speed, appearantly with all your education you can't seem to read clearly.

Plenty of times I lane split by LEOS stilling in standstill traffic at below 25 mph, LEOs never gave chase, and didn't seem like they could if they wanted to.

It seems to me common sense to not trust anyone who is trying to sell a used vehicle. You seem to be repeating yourself... is that a sign of you loosing your intelligence?

Done here? more like you can't argue to save yourself without displaying your lack of common sense, gary.

LETS FIGHT

ROUND 1 DING DING

:thumbdown:

Well, can't get the bike here anyways here in CA...

-SDF

Er, cat... In case you were unaware.

You can't lane split either.

Philadelphia PA. Not California. California is the only state in the nation to permit it.

So don't mention the "superiority" of your bike because it allows you to perform an illegal maneuver.

And trying to claim a thumper is inferior because it can't run at high revs is like trying to claim the same of a deisel. revs =/= better



Oh, Cat.... In case you were unaware.... This is an MPG forum.


And also, so you know... The bike the TU250 is replacing, the one lung GN250... Well, it was carbed and it easily got over 70mpg at 60mph. So an FE successor? Yeah... I kinda think it'll get maybe a little over 50mpg on the highway....

I like the design of the new TU. It looks like a better commuter than my Ninjette. I'd like to put a windscreen and hard luggage on one, maybe some DS tires as well. Might make a nice little dirt road explorer. Swap out the sprockets and I'm sure high mpg's are easy. Maybe add an oil cooler for stop-and-go urban traffic.

I have had a bit more than 79mpg once, 75mpg about a third of the time, then around 70mpg for the rest of the time. I ride in heavy metro traffic daily, so I'm probably a bit more aggressive as a result. I changed out the sprockets to 51/41s and noticed an immediate difference. I've cut a custom windscreen that lets me sit upright at any speed, makes a nice little sport-tourer.

Er, cat... In case you were unaware.

You can't lane split either.

Philadelphia PA. Not California. California is the only state in the nation to permit it.

So don't mention the "superiority" of your bike because it allows you to perform an illegal maneuver.

And trying to claim a thumper is inferior because it can't run at high revs is like trying to claim the same of a deisel. revs =/= better



Oh, Cat.... In case you were unaware.... This is an MPG forum.

Driving over the speed limit is also illegal, that doesn't stop most drivers doing so.

Single cylinder engine require more topend rebuild, that is what I know from years of riding and rebuilding motorcycles/dirt bikes. How many motorcycle engines have you had to rebuild?

And also, so you know... The bike the TU250 is replacing, the one lung GN250... Well, it was carbed and it easily got over 70mpg at 60mph. So an FE successor? Yeah... I kinda think it'll get maybe a little over 50mpg on the highway....

Whatever the TU250 is replacing doesn't change my opinion that it is less cost effective than any of my current two-wheeled vechicles in my garage that cost (in some case more than $1500) less than a brand new TU250, and my 250cc carburated Chinese scooter regularly gets over 80 mpg, and cost $1699 shipped to my driveway, that cost effective to me.

Some people like to buy new. Peace of mind for the non-mechanically inclined.

Some people like to buy new. Peace of mind for the non-mechanically inclined.

I never claimed there is anything wrong with buying new, but it is not as cost efficient as buying used in my opinion.

Learning a skill of doing things yourself and make sure it's done right gives me the most peace in mind.

Single cylinder motorcycles are not overly complicated to work on, I doubt anything required maintenance on a TU250 is any less complicated than my Chinese scooter that cost less new and gets better mpg.

I'm not sure that this hijacked thread could be put back on the tracks with any amount of effort... :rolleyes:

I'm not sure that this hijacked thread could be put back on the tracks with any amount of effort... :rolleyes:

Your post seems to futher contribute to the cause of hijack, too..

I think the performance limits of Suzuki TU250, an air-cooled thumper, non-adjustable suspension, retro-looking motorcycle is too low for $3500.

For similar amount, better performing motorcycle could easily be found, even a carburated Ninja 250.

For similar performance, less expensive motorcycles could easily be found.

The idea that a FI vehicle has to run cleaner and more fuel efficient than a carbed vehicle seems over-rated and false to me.

Your post seems to futher contribute to the cause of hijack, too..

I think the performance limits of Suzuki TU250, an air-cooled thumper, non-adjustable suspension, retro-looking motorcycle is too low for $3500.

For similar amount, better performing motorcycle could easily be found, even a carburated Ninja 250.

For similar performance, less expensive motorcycles could easily be found.

The idea that a FI vehicle has to run cleaner and more fuel efficient than a carbed vehicle seems over-rated and false to me.
blah, blah, blah, sounds the same as before.:thumbdown:
You evidentally believe your own drivel because you keep spewing it, but I'm fairly confident nobody else is buying it!

Did you lose your rock under all the snow?

Jim T.

Your post seems to further contribute to the cause of hijack, too..

I think the performance limits of Suzuki TU250, an air-cooled thumper, non-adjustable suspension, retro-looking motorcycle is too low for $3500.

For similar amount, better performing motorcycle could easily be found, even a carburetted Ninja 250.

For similar performance, less expensive motorcycles could easily be found.

The idea that a FI vehicle has to run cleaner and more fuel efficient than a carbed vehicle seems over-rated and false to me.

Not all who wander are lost. ;)

I have over 20k miles on a carb'd Ninjette already. I love the bike, its a performer with an efficient streak. I modded the bike and get 70-75mpg easy, 80mpg high, still quick enough to irk the 600's on my favorite twisties.

It's more about what you enjoy, not about the short-sighted opinions of others. Ride confidently and others will notice.

The TU250 is a practical little bike for the rider who enjoys riding without testing the fates at every curve.

Comparing a used rocket to a new economy bike is just silly, really. Apples and oranges. Honestly. My old Honda Supercub got better gas mileage than your (insert crotch rocket brand here.) Also, few Chinese imports are really known for reliability, hence the price point. (SYM aside) Maybe someday...

Game on! :D





F'K 'em if they can't take a joke.

Not all who wander are lost. ;)
I have over 20k miles on a carb'd Ninjette already. I love the bike, its a performer with an efficient streak. I modded the bike and get 70-75mpg easy, 80mpg high, still quick enough to irk the 600's on my favorite twisties.
It's more about what you enjoy, not about the short-sighted opinions of others. Ride confidently and others will notice.
The TU250 is a practical little bike for the rider who enjoys riding without testing the fates at every curve.
Comparing a used rocket to a new economy bike is just silly, really. Apples and oranges. Honestly. My old Honda Supercub got better gas mileage than your (insert crotch rocket brand here.) Also, few Chinese imports are really known for reliability, hence the price point. (SYM aside) Maybe someday...
Game on! :D


F'K 'em if they can't take a joke.

Is it about what each of us enjoy such as personal preference? Comparing apple to oranges? I would refer back to my post in the first page of this thread in response to another:

Comfortable? that's a rather personal preference that varies from person to person.. but my scooter does have more storage compartments and does not require clutching and shifting in bumper to bumper traffic where most of the 250cc and below scooters are designed for.

So the real question becomes: What is the main purpose that you use a 250cc EFI motorcycle that cost $3500?
City commute? suburban traffic? highway cruising (not likely)? just to be retro/chic?

Personally, I like to think that I'm a practical person, even though I have many vehicles, they each have some designated purpose. I enjoy riding and practicing my riding ability on every ride/machine, I would think most of us who ride a two-wheel motorized vehicle is riding because of the thrill we get to push the envelope once in a while, that could easily done without testing the fates at every curve.

But I don't see the practicality of a $3500 TU250, or how you might consider it as an economy moto, especially when compared to a twin cylinder, water-cooled Ninja 250.
With lack of engine pep to accelerate along traffic moving above 45 mph, suburban traffic flow with cars cruising at speed greater than 50 mph, TU250 is not likely to be a safe choice.

With lack of storage compartment for city commute, which is a very likely purpose for a 250cc thumper moto.

With the TU250 being an air-cooled only thumper, I see potential problem of overheating in bumper to bumper traffic during city commute. Not to mention the constant clutching.

BTW, SYM is not Chinese, they are Taiwanese manufacture, and so is Kymco.
I would love to get either one of them at Chinese scooter pricing. :D

I didn't realize we were here to abuse the TU250...

Never a dull moment...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/cat0020/Avitar/popcorncbi1.gif






Maybe its time for an unbiased TU250 thread? Maybe even some TU250-specific discussions? What an idea!

All machines could be abused... the TU250 is biased in its design, retro-looks with modern pricing, doesn't seem like a good value for the money.

The TU250 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=390649&page=3) (TU250X Volty elsewhere) looks to replace the GZ250, coming in at the same price point with more features. It competes with standards like the Nighthawk and Rebel, looking like a little Bonneville.

http://www.geocities.jp/volty_kantou/volfo/images/fot/shirovolty.JPG

Light at 328lbs, easy to ride, upright riding position, clean styling... Its probably not the next big thing, but its a great option for a first bike that will last for years. Plenty of room for creativity as well...

http://www.bikebros.co.jp/images/issue/2003_37thtms/suzuki/st250_02_zoom.jpg


It may be missing features like an extra gear, rear disc brake or liquid cooling, but comes in ahead of the long-running standards in the category.

http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/166885-2/09_Suz_TU250X.JPG


It has no misgivings of competing against sporty offerings like the Ninja 250, you won't be dragging a knee on this bike. Running at 9.2:1 (versus the 12.2:1 for the first-gen Ninja) compression, it will run on low octane without complaint. The simple design will also allow for easy maintenance.

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2471/20071212scrambler0015ln7.jpg


Even after 22k miles on a Ninjette, varying from 60-60mpg ;), I'd still have a place in the garage for it.

http://www.chicdesign.co.jp/products/vol/vol_cl/volty_c_slant_l.jpg

http://www.krungthepcar.com/shop/c/carworld/img-lib/spd_20080210215803_b.JPG

http://www.urethane-ya.com/HTML_1/Garry%20JPEG%20FILES/Volty.Kenz.jpg

Sure, those bikes LOOK great! if that's what you want to spend $3500 (or more) of your hard erned cash.

Below looks to be more practical:

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/mcy/982766399.html

2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R - $2600 (Deptford)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: sale-982766399@craigslist.org [?]
Date: 2009-01-06, 4:38PM EST

2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R for sale. Only 1800 miles. Runs and rides excellent. All scheduled maintenance performed. Gets 60 mpg! Great beginner bike and very forgiving. I'm ready to move on to something bigger. Clear title in hand. Always garaged. Still under warranty. Fairing has some cracks and scratches which is why I'm selling for cheap. $2600. Thanks for looking.

http://images.craigslist.org/3n53kf3me1fb1291g9916dcfa97a3a5161b14.jpg