Condensator Installation/Reporting Thread

[95metro]

This is a pre-report to receiving and installing a Condensator on my 1995, 1.0L Geo Metro (though as of this time, Condisales has not confirmed that he has received my shipping information).

Referring back to March 20, that tank was 37.014 mpg (I'm using my Excel sheet, so my numbers may be slightly different than my Garage/Gaslog).

You can see how a steadily rising temperature increased my FE:

Spring/Summer FE Breakdown:

Mar 20: 37.014

Apr 6: 41.496

Apr 20: 41.747

May 4: 44.415 (first attempts at CODFISHing)

May 13: 42.960 (tested higher revving shift points)

May 30: 50.266

Jun 20: 53.902

Jul 5: 55.191

Temperature Breakdown:

Mar 20:
no recorded temps

Apr 6:
no recorded temps

Apr 20:
no recorded temps (similar to Apr 6 by "feel")

May 4:
9.735°C/49.528°F (similar to Apr 20 & 6 by "feel" - CODFISHing main difference?)
Highest Temp: 24°C/75.2°F
Lowest Temp: -3°C/26.6°F

May 13:
11.288°C/52.318°F
Highest Temp: 21°C/69.8°F
Lowest Temp: 1°C/33.8°F

May 30:
15.979°C/60.762°F (high tank starting temps, low ending temps)
Highest Temp: 31°C/87.8°F
Lowest Temp: 6°C/42.8°F

Jun 20:
16.245°C/61.241°F (consistent mid-range temps)
Highest Temp: 27°C/80.6°F
Lowest Temp: 7°C/44.6°F

Jul 5:
20°C/68°F
Highest Temp: 28°C/82.4°F
Lowest Temp: 11°C/51.8°F

I think it would be fair to say that if I had not tested the higher revving shift points that the May 13 tank possibly could have been in the 46-48 mpg range.

The July 5 tank probably could have been higher, but I have been lugging all my tools around since I was working on the car at various times. This was probably the equivalent of carrying around an extra passenger.

My point here is that temperature is obviously creating a trend in my mileage numbers. As temperature averages go up or down my mileage trend should appear similar and at least be in the same range as previous tanks at similar temperatures.

I do not think my mileage has plateaued yet. I think I can expect temperature increases through July and August, with a drop beginning towards the end of August.

As for my driving-style, I think it has become pretty consistent. I could be CODFISHing more aggresively, but as it is I have specific points in my routes where I always perform the same driving techniques. I am comfortable with my driving method at this time due to the amount of traffic and lights that I deal with regularly.

Near the end of August will probably be the best time to install and test the Condensator. If temperatures are dropping and the Condensator actually works then mileage should remain higher than the current trend.

Of course, if this happens it still will not necessarily mean that there is anything special about the Condensator. It may simply mean that a catch-can works just as well.

However, we will see what happens. Will post pictures when I get it and maybe even pull it apart (as much as possible) to see what's inside.

[95metro]

Guys, let me know if there's any details I should include here. I want to establish as much of a baseline as possible and eliminate as many variables as possible to make the data as conclusive as can be.

As I've stated, I think that instant, A-B-A testing may be completely inconclusive for this product. Long term will be the only way to even make semi-accurate guesstimates.

[Matt Timion]

As I've stated, I think that instant, A-B-A testing may be completely inconclusive for this product. Long term will be the only way to even make semi-accurate guesstimates.

You may be right. The downside is that long term tests also introduce countless other errors.

I think without a device like the supermid or a scangauge short testing is next to impossible.

[95metro]

Yup, exactly. Obviously temperature is the big one - which is why I've included all this temperature trending data. With the Condensator installed I think if I'm within ±2 mpg of my previous tanks at a given temperature range then that could probably conclude an impact of zilch from the device.

As for the SuperMID, I'm hoping to have one by the end of August or September so I'll be able to attempt some A-B-A tests anyway.

[95metro]

Took a look at the PCV system in the car on Saturday. It's a bit of an odd setup, plus I have no clue when the PCV valve was last changed. I tried to remove the valve, but it's held in place by a bracket. When I tried to remove the bracket I stripped the screws (the metal was really soft). So, I guess I need a screw extractor.

Anyway, the PCV system does seem a little odd and I have no idea as yet as to how I will mount the Condensator (even though Condisales still has not responded to confirm one is being sent). :confused:

The PCV valve is mounted directly to the intake manifold. A Y-adapter hose is fitted to the PCV valve. One part of the Y is connected to the valve cover, the other runs to the air filter housing (which is obviously why I get some oil in there - I wondered about this previously). I will get some pictures eventually.

On another note - but still related to testing - I ordered a SuperMID from Yoshi. I asked for delivery around the middle of August.

[SVOboy]

Dude, schweet. I can't wait for you to be metro'ing all over the place. Is this thing sposed to replacethedamn pcv system or just supplement it like the catch can does?

[95metro]

Supplement it as far as I know, so I guess I'll have to splice in some hose between the PCV valve and the Y-adapter hose.

[ZugyNA]

Picked up my Condensator at the PO today.

I'll post my results in this thread if OK...so it can be found at the same place.

I'm testing it on an '83 Tercel 4WD wagon with the 3AC 1.5 L carbed engine.

EPA mixed mpg is 29.5 mpg...my realworld summer baseline is about 30 mpg.

Shutoff the fuel heat, plugged the ozone air bleed, regapped the plugs to OEM specs, did not use acetone, xylol, GP7 fuel additive.

Only thing now out of spec is the ignition timing...which is advanced so that it will only ping full throttle at around 1200 to 1700 RPM in 4th or 5th. This engine needs the extra power from the ignition advance.

Got the Model A that has an air bleed (for carbed engines) which is supposed to cool the PCV gases to help condense them.

Have it intalled and the car idles OK...was afraid the air bleed might make the idle rough...as this car is sensitive to vac leaks.

Installation was fairly easy...all parts needed were supplied...hose...fittings...clamps, etc. Have it sitting on the frame right behind the radiator...about the only area with enough room and it's close to the the grill for the air pickup tube.

Next tank will just be a test tank as there is still a little additive in the tank...will give it some time to readjust.

Will use a moving average kind of test...where my "official" results are determined by the avg of the last 3 tanks of gas. This can be plotted out in a spreadsheet also....showing the mpg for each tank and a 3 tank moving avg.

I could do an A-B-A test by using some tubing to bypass the Condensator...and also a 30 to 55 MPH "power" test where I time how long it takes at WOT in 5th gear.

[zpiloto]

Picked up my Condensator at the PO today.

I'll post my results in this thread if OK...so it can be found at the same place.

I'm testing it on an '83 Tercel 4WD wagon with the 3AC 1.5 L carbed engine.

EPA mixed mpg is 29.5 mpg...my realworld summer baseline is about 30 mpg.

Shutoff the fuel heat, plugged the ozone air bleed, regapped the plugs to OEM specs, did not use acetone, xylol, GP7 fuel additive.

Only thing now out of spec is the ignition timing...which is advanced so that it will only ping full throttle at around 1200 to 1700 RPM in 4th or 5th. This engine needs the extra power from the ignition advance.

Got the Model A that has an air bleed (for carbed engines) which is supposed to cool the PCV gases to help condense them.

Have it intalled and the car idles OK...was afraid the air bleed might make the idle rough...as this car is sensitive to vac leaks.

Installation was fairly easy...all parts needed were supplied...hose...fittings...clamps, etc. Have it sitting on the frame right behind the radiator...about the only area with enough room and it's close to the the grill for the air pickup tube.

Next tank will just be a test tank as there is still a little additive in the tank...will give it some time to readjust.

Will use a moving average kind of test...where my "official" results are determined by the avg of the last 3 tanks of gas. This can be plotted out in a spreadsheet also....showing the mpg for each tank and a 3 tank moving avg.
Was that 30 MPG with the heated fuel, additives, etc. If so you just changed quite a bit of suff and your baseline.

[95metro]

Aren't air bleeds illegal due to emissions?

[cheapybob]

I looked at the site and they were saying there was an immediate performance improvement. I'd take the car out as it sits before installing the device on an XX mile trip filling before and after at the same station, then install it and make the trip again. Leave it installed, drive a week, and do the trip a 3rd time to see if it changes for better. I personally don't think you'll see much change, but what do I know.

[95metro]

I'm going to make sure I can quick connect/disconnect it. Once I get the MID calibrated then I can do instant long or short A-B-A tests. I'd have to drive at least 100 km to even burn a gallon of fuel. At those small amounts I could see fill errors becoming a problem, plus temperature, wind, and other ambient conditions would interfere over that large of a distance.

[ZugyNA]

Was that 30 MPG with the heated fuel, additives, etc. If so you just changed quite a bit of suff and your baseline.

30 ODO (not Google corrected) mpg is baseline with advanced ignition and no EGR.

Was getting 33 ODO mpg with fuel heat...and 34.5 mpg with the larger tires and using Google Earth to correct the ODO.

Of that list of mods...the only thing that shows a mpg gain with this car is the fuel heat at 10% or 3 mpg...and only in summer...probably due to not getting enough heat to the fuel during winter.

CORRECTION: nothing works to increase mpg with heated fuel ON except larger diameter tires....the other mods fail to increase mpg more than the 10% gained from heated fuel.

[ZugyNA]

Aren't air bleeds illegal due to emissions?

Might be...but someone mentioned a 20% gain from this mod so I thought I'd try it. Didn't do much for this car. Not much does...because I think Toyota used every trick available in the book at the time to up the mpg.

My focus is mpg...not emissions. The car has a recent cat and uses about 1 qt oil in 5K miles.

Try buying a new 4WD SUV or wagon that gets 30 mpg mixed and can carry over 800 lbs.

Ford Escape Hybrid? How much in the way of energy use and emissions would it take to build one of these?

So I might up the NOX some...consider this:

"For every barrel of petroleum it takes about 85% of the energy
in that barrel to discover, extract, refine, and transport the
fuel to the local pump."

So if you increase your mileage by 20%...you might actually being
reducing your overall energy use and the resulting pollution by
around 37%?

[ZugyNA]

First full tank refill after the Condensator installation:

* after 369 miles and 9.5 gallons (US)...I got 38.84 mpg.

* this is a gain of 29% from 30 mpg and 18% from 33 mpg.

But wait you say...how can this be?

Well it beats me.

I was actually surprised myself. Possibly the refill was shut off early for whatever reason. Next full tank refill should come under 30-33 mpg if I get an avg refill then. See no real reason to think it was a faulty shutoff...did have one of those vapor recovery pumps though. With this car there is no chance of topping it off...when it's full...it's full.

My impressions were that the engine seemed smoother and it seemed less throttle was needed to maintain cruising speed.

Below is a graph of my mpg records for this car...not too sure what my baseline is...thinking it's around 33 mpg in summer with fuel heat.

The high variance in mpg in 2005 was due to a camping trip...car sat over the next winter. The light RED line is this years local mpg up to but not including this last tank.

[SVOboy]

I'd like to know what mark's seeing. Mehbe he'll come back to report.

[zpiloto]

ZugyNA are you running synthetic oil?

[ZugyNA]

2 quarts Mobil 1 10W30 synth...2 quarts Torco 15W40 Diesel. DON'T intend to mix oils like this anymore.

[maxc]

2 quarts Mobil 1 10W30 synth...2 quarts Torco 15W40 Diesel. DON'T intend to mix oils like this anymore.Are you superheating the vapors going back to the engine?

[ZugyNA]

No...just straight PCV flow.

Did go ahead and move the PCV valve on my V6 to where the flow comes out of the valve cover....and increased the size of the 2nd PCV jar I have put in to collect raw gas.

I had the PCV valve installed between the FA2000 and the intake....supposedly to act as a flame arrester. The FA2000 and the Condensator work on similar principles.

Can now watch a fog forming in the 2nd jar when reving the car up a little.

After driving it I seem to be getting the same need to back the throttle off at cruise...but don't trust the butt dyno...will see what the next V6 tank shows.

[ZugyNA]

I have goods news and I have bad news:

Bad news...over 327 miles I "used" 11.5 gallons = 28.4 mpg.

Good news...if I avg this with the last tank at 38.84 mpg...I have a 2 tank avg of 33.6 mpg.

If I assume a baseline mpg of 30 mpg without fuel heat...then this is a 12% gain...a little more than with fuel heat.

Good chance that the first tank fill wasn't legit...used one of those vapor recovery pumps.

I'm using a 3 tank avg to validate mods....so next tank should determine the baseline for the Condensator.

[SVOboy]

Are you then going to take it off and test without it?

[ZugyNA]

After one more tank I'll probably just call the 3 tank avg the baseline for the Condensator.

Testing weather is about over and I want to remove the fuel heat setup (I guess)...install magnets...manual choke...etc.

Looking closer at my mpg records it seems my best 3 tank avgs with local mixed driving in warm weather are around 31.5 to 32 mpg with fuel heat.

Generally see 33-34 highway loaded on trips though.

Will try to do a "power" test where I will time from 25 mph to 55 mph in 5th gear with the Condensator bypassed vs when working.

** Does anyone know how to calculate a 3 tank avg in a spreadsheet? The sheet needs to recognize the last 3 cells with data. **

[ZugyNA]

3 tank avg for the Condensator is in:

tank 1....38.8 mpg < likely a fill where it shut off too soon?

tank 2....28.4 < extra gas added to make up for previous tank?

tank 3....34.9 < close to the avg of the 1st two tanks at 33.6...so I'll call it valid...might be seeing a gradual increase here

Condensator 3 tank avg = 34 mpg...summer 2006

When looking back over the mileage records I do have...it's pretty hard to find a valid baseline...what with summer camping trips and driving it mostly in winter...and testing various things.

What I consider valid 3 tank avgs are...summer driving...local....more or less consistant mixed driving.

EPA city/highway = 29.5 mpg

fuel heat-water inj avg = 31.9 mpg...summer 2004

summer 2005...only driven on camping trip

fuel heat-ozone-acetone avg = 32.1 mpg summer 2006


So what's the % gain for the Condensator?

+15% vs EPA city/highway

+ 6% vs best 3 tank avg with mods

Mods were removed for this test.

Might be seeing a gradual mpg gain?

[thisisntjared]

looks like it to me

[ZugyNA]

It's possible that the Condensator might be affected by the oil you use?

"Yes oil additives can stop some of these inventions
the stuff they put in oil to make it last longer stops any cracking , seems
it works this way but it is not always consistient the cheap oils have
little additives because they do not care the synthetic have none because
they do not need them Premium oils are loaded so gas saver do not work at
all or as well. Bob Heiderich of CRC that published the Covey manuel had
his tubonator doing great until he ran out of the old oil that he stocked
up on years ago. When he got new oil it did mot work even a new unit that
previously got 40 % gains according to Bob."

[ZugyNA]

Got the mileage on the last tank for the Condensator at 30.8 mpg.

This was disappointing...but probably explainable.

For this tank I....

* enabled the EGR...which for some reason with this car seems to reduce mileage by about 10%

* I plugged the air bleed tube on the model A Condensator...but found when putting the model C in that both the jar and the inlet fitting on the top on the model A were slightly loose.

* might have had another short fill last time due to another vapor recovery pump...but this time I kept the rubber flare out away from the filler tube some

* also added 4 oz of Valv Synpower oil additive

So the model C condensator with no air bleed is now installed...EGR is off again. Oil additive in. Will also be checking that the jar is snug now and then....not a big job.