Side mirrors [ Archive] - GasSavers.org - Helping You Save at the Pump

SVOboy

08-11-2006, 02:37 PM

Are you going to camera things up, have that wicked big rear view mirror, or just go without?

I'm surprised that my windsheild wiper would only account for .01 but my mirrors would account for .03-.06. I guess the rear wiper does point foward though...

MetroMPG

08-11-2006, 02:47 PM

If it turns out it's really worth taking mirrors off, I may go for a combination approach

MetroMPG

08-12-2006, 07:45 PM

I de-passenger side mirrored the Flea

SVOboy

08-12-2006, 07:58 PM

take a week off from work!

MetroMPG

08-12-2006, 08:00 PM

The thought crossed my mind. :)

I may just take the next day off that's calm (good for testing).

MetroMPG

08-12-2006, 08:17 PM

Using the aero/rr web tool (http://metrompg.com/tool-aero-rr.htm) I made based on Dan's spreadsheet, my car theoretically gets 56.7 mpg (US) @55 mph

SVOboy

08-12-2006, 08:19 PM

certainly makes it worth testing, i think, :)

MetroMPG

08-12-2006, 08:33 PM

Yeah, I would say so. It's not so small as to disappear into experimental variability noise - if it's true.

For testing, I'd likely remove both mirrors just to be safe (larger effect), and then halve the results if I end up just taking one off permanently.

tomauto

08-13-2006, 02:49 AM

I read the areo thread and I decided to purchase a pair of carbon fiber mirrors off of ebay in April. I've never got around to posting pictures for them yet... I am officially making no claims other than they look great and I can actually see more than the stock mirrors...And they are tinted so I can look at SUV's headlights without hurting my eyes at night...
Before (front view)
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3416/48f7ym2.jpg
After (front view)
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9796/dsc03943smalllf3.jpg
Before (rear view)
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1024/c06cnb7.jpg
After (rear view)
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1395/dsc03955smallav7.jpg

tomauto

08-13-2006, 02:55 AM

I had my windshield wipers off for 3 months (I had one on in the picture) it wasn't exactly legal...but we have been in a severe drought for a year now. I didn't need them on the occiasional shower because of Rain-X (it really works) Sorry for the randomness.

krousdb

08-13-2006, 06:16 AM

Dude, love the paint job. Blue flames!

MetroMPG

08-13-2006, 08:06 AM

Just to clarify - the Chalmers report (just re-reading it now) states a 3-6% reduction in drag, not a Cd .03 - .06.

SVOboy

08-13-2006, 10:16 AM

haha, blue flames. but yeah, those mirrors look keewwwwl, how do they attach in there? it's it fab or stock mounting? ever do the y5 minime?

tomauto

08-13-2006, 10:51 AM

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/9122/dsc03939smallvy5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

It uses the stock mounting location. The connecting rod (from base to mirror)has a ball at the end of it so you can adjust the position of the mirror and you lock it down with a lock washer and nut.

The mirror weighs 3 ounces! The aluminum bracket is almost 2 pounds though, I should have purchased the carbon fiber fab sheet and made it flush mount.

SVOboy

08-13-2006, 10:53 AM

Hmm, darn, it seems like darin couldn't use on then for the style of the mounting, :(

tomauto

08-13-2006, 11:00 AM

If he has a 96-00 civic it will fit. Those are fake screws on the front, I dont know why they did that. I should have clarified. I think this mount was made for a coupe however. Its curve doesn't quite match the one on my 4 door.

MetroMPG

08-13-2006, 11:02 AM

If I had a motorcycle mirror hanging around, that might do the trick. My Ninja 250 had nice sized mirrors... And I'm not so concerned about weight as frontal area & Cd.

This afternoon I'm going to look at the folding Forkenswift mirror approach with the smaller convex circle on the "aft" end when folde back for highway use. I think that's a good hybrid approach (and I've got the mirror already). We'll see.

MetroMPG

08-13-2006, 08:37 PM

Undertook a little project this afternoon: replaced my stock non-folding but otherwise aerodynamically shaped driver's side mirror with a folding but otherwise not very aerodynamic mirror from the red Forkenswift car.

MakDiesel

08-13-2006, 08:38 PM

how much were they tomauto? I would have to say the reduced frontal area in the new mirrors is at least a compromise in stock mirrors vs. no mirror. My '85 CRX Si hasn't had a pass. side mirror in years....I scored an HF delete plate in the junkyard and adapted it, then sold the mirror recently for $16. I wanted to get a 300mm rearview to make up for it but I haven't found one I like yet. Mak

tomauto

08-13-2006, 10:50 PM

APR Performance makes the mirrors.
http://www.aprperformance.com/

I found the mirrors on a e-bay listing for 78 dollars shipped to me! APR sells them for 275 plus shipping. I like them very much, everybody in my town asks, how can you see out of those?? I tell them its better, than they wont take my word for it.

omgwtfbyobbq

08-14-2006, 09:05 AM

Remove all your mirrors and get a wink mirror. You could even buy a couple of those CVS digital camcorders for $20-30 each and extend the lcd or camera connections (whichever's easiest) from where the camera is to where you are for blind spots.

kickflipjr

08-14-2006, 02:33 PM

Is there anyway you could have side mirrors on the inside of the car that still function?

MetroMPG

08-14-2006, 02:42 PM

It's a good question. I was thinking about it, but haven't looked at how that would work. One reason is because I thought not having a driver's side one might be illegal.

Another drawback is you'd lose the ability to see behind you if the internal mirror is blocked.

MetroMPG

08-14-2006, 02:43 PM

While on the side-view mirror topic, we all know how to set them, right?

MetroMPG

08-14-2006, 04:18 PM

Is there anyway you could have side mirrors on the inside of the car that still function?

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:fcdT00z542uChM:http://graphics.samsclub.com/images/products/0003308171800_LG.jpg

MetroMPG

08-14-2006, 04:57 PM

I tell them its better, than they wont take my word for it.

I'm curious: how are they better?

Remove all your mirrors and get a wink mirror.

What's a wink mirror?

zpiloto

08-14-2006, 05:16 PM

I'm curious: how are they better?

What's a wink mirror? I had one on a VW Sirocco that I had and really liked it. Been thinking seriously about getting another one and just remove the side mirrors if it's legal. I'm still trying to figure out if mirrors are required in Tx if you not towing anything. The wink really does give you a full veiw of what's going on. http://www.gti-vr6.net/library/body_interior/inst_wink_panoramic_mirror.html

EDIT:
Just found this it might apply in your state.http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/vi/inspection/rules_list.asp?itemdrop=Mirror&rejectsubmit=Go
I'll have to see how hard it is to remove my mirrors.:D

MetroMPG

08-14-2006, 06:11 PM

Thanks!

See, I assumed, and made an *** out of me.

SVOboy

08-14-2006, 06:20 PM

I can, I always turn, just to be sure.

zpiloto

08-14-2006, 06:36 PM

Thanks!

See, I assumed, and made an *** out of me.

Your TX regulation prompted me to check, and lo and behold, in Ontario...

EDIT: I can't believe I'd consider driving without any outside mirrors at all. That's just crazy talk. ...Right?
I always look before a change lanes the only time side mirrors would be good (for me at least) if you had stuff in the cabin that was blocking your view.

I took my mirrors off in about 10 minutes but will need to fabricate something to smooth out the hole where it went to make it airtight and sound proof. My mirrors are huge and it might make a pretty big differance in FE. A might run some test on it this weekend but don't think I'll be able to leave it that way now that I have multi driver using casper.:(

MetroMPG

08-14-2006, 06:50 PM

The herd effect... There's insanity in numbers. :)

might run some test on it this weekend
Please do! I will also test the mirrors next calm day. It would be good to have info from 2 vehicles.

kickflipjr

08-14-2006, 07:05 PM

I want someone to test this. If removing mirrors saves 1-2mpg I will remove them(I just made something to fill in the passager mirror hole, so that one is gone for now) . I will have to see how the convex mirrors work too.

kickflipjr

08-14-2006, 07:08 PM

I am going to be driving lots of highway this fall (going to school). So I am getting ready to go back to the mpg game.

tomauto

08-15-2006, 11:48 AM

[quote=MetroMPG]I'm curious: how are they better?

Well, their website has this picture. And I can vouch for that, I can see the car in the mirror until its right by my side.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4804/untitledis9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

MetroMPG

08-15-2006, 11:50 AM

Ah, OK - they're convex. Thanks.

tomauto

08-15-2006, 11:57 AM

Yep, your welcome, their website has a carbon fiber plate (12x12) which you can fabricate your own mount with, so it can work with virtually any car.

MetroMPG

08-23-2006, 08:45 PM

Late today I had near perfect weather conditions for doing a little experiment: light north winds, which are blocked by a ridge and tree line that runs along the north side of my usual "test" road, leaving the road in nearly still air.

MetroMPG

09-01-2006, 02:08 PM

FYI for those following this thread, I've posted a summary of the mirror information & road test on metrompg.com, correcting some of my sloppy pre-test drag estimates in the process:

Reflections on side mirrors: testing drag vs. MPG (http://www.metrompg.com/posts/mirrors.htm)

http://www.metrompg.com/posts/photos/mirror-chart-s.gif (http://www.metrompg.com/posts/photos/mirror-chart-z.gif)

kickflipjr

09-07-2006, 04:28 PM

How did I miss this? I just was on teamswift and saw your results.

MetroMPG

09-07-2006, 08:37 PM

You can't blink any more, or you miss an interesting thread here on GS. It's a blessing and a curse :)

ZugyNA

09-08-2006, 07:01 AM

Why?

Why don't they shape mirrors much like they now do cars?

Pointed front...wider body...narrowing down to a blunt mirror surface (partial boat tail).

Or...put the mirrors out on the front fenders like the old British roadsters...only very streamlined in shape..as above?

Ted Hart

09-08-2006, 10:36 AM

Is there anyway you could have side mirrors on the inside of the car that still function?

Yep! You're right! Side mirrors on the INSIDE are the only way to go! The little round "stick-ons" , stuck to a piece of bent aluminum...stuck in a seam or crack in the dashboard cover. I've been doing this for years...and fighting with auto inspection people for years, too! Hey! Rear-view is rear-view...even thru the glass! The only requirement? They must be convex...to 'see' around your window post (right side only). Depth perception is a problem ("How fast is he coming up alongside?"), but a quick check of the (flat) rearview mirror over the windshield will confirm this. Hint: If ANYTHING is in your right-side convex...don't go there!!! -Ted Hart:cool:

JanGeo

09-08-2006, 11:31 AM

Both my mirrors fold against the door side glass and since they are probably in a air pocket coming off the windshield they probably don't affect the mpg much - I also think a hood mirror just in front of the windshield where the bubble of air dams up against the windshield would work for a rear view mirror and you would be looking out the windshield to see it which means it would be clear in the rain and the snow. Better yet a tiny camera on a small aero boom where the mirror would normally go connected to a TV screen inside the door or on the dash would be cool too.

You would think that a clear boat tail on the mirrors would work maybe on the outside edges and be able to see through them as well. Or a long thin mirror right against the window of the door but only a couple of inches wide would work as a wind deflector and mirror at the same time.

MetroMPG

09-08-2006, 11:51 AM

Pointed front...wider body...narrowing down to a blunt mirror surface (partial boat tail).

Modern cars' side mirrors are generally highly optimized for aerodynamics.

A roughly hemispherical shape on the forward facing side is most efficient, rather than pointed.

Widening the body would permit some tapering/boat tailing, but the increase in frontal area cancels out the gain from streamlining.

cfg83

09-11-2006, 10:42 PM

Hello -

I think you could make yourself very safe with a 17" Snap-On Panoramic Mirror for about $20 :

http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MIR-R17-M&Category_Code=MCI

On my car, I already use the big fisheye mirrors for trucks on the outer part of my mirror (about 3" in diameter). Currently I use the fisheye mirror to see what's in my blind spot, and then I use what's left of the flat part to figure out how close it is. I think that with the 17" panoramic, I could get away with a fisheye on the interior of the car.

Here is a website that has *very* expensive racing mirrors :

http://www.rdent.com/pages/mirror.html

Maybe 20 years ago I bought the Sebring Mirror style. It was a cheapo from JCWhitney, but it has the flush aerodynamic shape that I wanted (I am going to look for it!!!!). I'll bet that a mirror like this could help you comply with the legal requirement, reduce your drag, *and* look cool at the same time! Here is an example mounting (that's not me) :

http://www.manxsr.com/images/Sr/george1.jpg

Question : How about the "ultimate" fisheye? I mirrored ball on a stalk? What are the aerodynamics of a sphere?

CarloSW2

ZugyNA

09-12-2006, 07:07 AM

Rear camera:

http://www.heartlandamerica.com/browse/item.asp?product=wireless-back-up-camera-kit&PIN=41182&GUID=F25DA552-6FED-454E-A978-E6F8B1FEAFAE&BC=S&DL=SEH1

MetroMPG

09-12-2006, 07:45 AM

re: Wikipedia's drag entry:

although I did find an error on it; VW Bug is listed having Cd .38 when it is really .48. Simple typo or are there more inaccuracies?

There are more.

I corrected the Audi A2's Cd last week. It was listed at .24. Audi's own corporate site claims .25

MetroMPG

09-12-2006, 07:48 AM

Neat camera link, Zugy. Possibly necessary if I ever install a full boat tail :)

JanGeo

09-12-2006, 07:56 AM

Stuck my hand out the window the other day at about 35 mph and there is some really fast moving air going past the mirror area. One of the nice things about outside remote mirrors is the ability to rotate them down and inwards to see the rear tire while driving - may prove helpful in rain to see what the air flow is doing back there. Note that the law states there has to be a mirror not that it has to be outside. Whatever happend to the roof rear view mirror systems using that dead air space right above the windshield?

cfg83

09-12-2006, 02:36 PM

Rear camera:

http://www.heartlandamerica.com/browse/item.asp?product=wireless-back-up-camera-kit&PIN=41182&GUID=F25DA552-6FED-454E-A978-E6F8B1FEAFAE&BC=S&DL=SEH1

Would it cover the blind spot? Here's another one that is 7" wide versus 2.5" wide (it costs more too, but a geeks is selling it to me, sooooo) :

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=7-REARVIEW-LCD&cpc=SCH

And here's another (no screen, though)!!!!

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=MAX-C6257-WB&cat=CON

I am not ready to pay the extra price for a camera and I question their reliability.

Also, having at least one driver's side view mirror reduces the cop-hastle factor in California.

CarloSW2

ZugyNA

09-12-2006, 05:13 PM

The Geek one has power cables and would be more reliable I'm sure. :thumbup:

JV-Tuga

05-18-2008, 01:43 PM

Rear camera:

http://www.heartlandamerica.com/browse/item.asp?product=wireless-back-up-camera-kit&PIN=41182&GUID=F25DA552-6FED-454E-A978-E6F8B1FEAFAE&BC=S&DL=SEH1
That is a backup/reverse camera. This is the best setup I've ever seen for replacing all mirrors: http://www.carterrv.com/crv/crviis.dll?mtd=products&part=SCL-TRIVIEW

The side view cameras look like they're tiny but I bet you can even mount the whole setup inside for less drag.

ArtFox

05-19-2008, 01:11 PM

These would seem to be out of the A-pillar turbulence but would be in the direct high pressure flow.

http://datsun510.com/photopost/data/3484/medium/IMG_7605wall.jpg
http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/1967_Lancia_Fulvai_Rallye_1.3S_Front.jpg

Snax

05-19-2008, 09:13 PM

That is a backup/reverse camera. This is the best setup I've ever seen for replacing all mirrors: http://www.carterrv.com/crv/crviis.dll?mtd=products&part=SCL-TRIVIEW

The side view cameras look like they're tiny but I bet you can even mount the whole setup inside for less drag.
Schnikies! Only $1080!! Obviously not a 'cost saver'. It's pretty cool though.

ArtFox

05-20-2008, 06:42 AM

Is there a Federal or state requirement for the minimum size for a driver's side external rear view mirror? Motorcycle and racing mirrors get pretty small but dental mirrors/inspection mirrors would be really small.
Inspection mirror at least have an adjustable ball for aiming.

Snax

05-20-2008, 08:36 AM

I can't say for sure on the Federal level, but I know that in Oregon at least, the requirement for rear view is fairly vague and open. Essentially it boils down to unobstructed view to the rear of 'x' number of feet. The Oregon statute says nothing about what type of mirror or where they must be mounted. Other states obviously will have different interpretations. Look it up in the vehicle equipment code for your state to be sure.