PIB as a fuel additive

[diamondlarry]

Hi everybody. I just found this message on Yahoo! Better MPG group. Vey interesting. I've already ordered my quart of Torco 2-cycle oil and will begin testing when it gets here.
Larry
Date: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:19 am
Subject: Re: http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20000902/fob3.asp mjoosting
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I've just read from members of Bobistheoilguy.com that polyisobutylene
(PIB) can be found inexpensively from some synthetic 2-stroke oils.
The normal composition of PIB in these oils is around 30%. The
purpose of which is to add lubricity to the fuel and allows the oil to
burn cleanly without soot. An example of a 2-stroke oil that has PIB
is TORCO Smokeless 2-stroke oil that, although expensive, is composed
of 38% PIB.

PIB supposedly works by binding the different sized HC's into larger
droplets. The PIB looses its grip above a certain temperature
dispersing the molecules and allowing them all to burn at the same
time. In this paper
http://www.gtatech.com/downloads/OctaneBoosterPaper.pdf they claim
>20% improvement from only 10ppm PIB. Adding this minute amount of
PIB into your gasoline would require one to dilute about 1 ounce of
PIB-containing 2-stroke oil into 1 gallon of gasoline and then adding
only 1 ounce of the gasoline mixture into each tank of gas.
Obviously, a bottle of 2-stroke oil might last the lifetime of the car
it was used for.

[diamondlarry]

The next message in the thread gives some suggestions for usage amounts.
Hi MJ,

WOW... If this works, then this is an *absolutely stupendous find*.

However, after reading the paper, I'm not sure why you would want to add one ounce per gallon, and then one ounce per tankful after that. The paper just said 10ppm (parts per million), which is a ratio of 1:100,000. This seems unthinkable - but so was heavier than air flight, and chemistry is a funny thing.

Seems to me that 0.0128 ounces would work for 10 gallons of gas (1280 ounces divided by 100,000, someone check my math). I'm not even sure how to measure that, this page says 600 drops per ounce http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/application.htm if so, then 8 drops per 10 gallons should do it!

Before anybody jumps in, again yes..! I find this hard to believe.

However, I'm going to try it out on my next long highway trip ASAP (probably try an ounce in a tank for starters).

[SVOboy]

Ah, well, for the second article, I think you're sposed to get it diluted properly, which is good.

I have (vaguely) heard about this in other places. Mainly I've heard something talk about acetone and this stuff mixed and then into the car, but I dunno, certainly something worth testing if you ask me.

[SVOboy]

Okay, first all post up all the links I can find, then read read read and post up how I feel about this stuff, but PIB is definately worth the effort, from what it sounds. Comparable to the awesomeness of acetone, I think:

<a href=http://www.txpetrochem.com/p/chemicals/polyoil.htm target=_blank>Basic info</a>
<a href=http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=93243 target=_blank>More basic info</a>
<a href=http://www.pslc.ws/mactest/pib.htm target=_blank>Chemical Stuff</a>
<a href=http://www.gtatech.com/downloads/OctaneBoosterPaper.pdf target=_blank>Paper on octane boosting</a>
<a href=http://deq.mt.gov/Energy/bioenergy/biofuels.asp target=_blank>Emissions stuff</a>

[diamondlarry]

I just got my Torco 2-cycle oil today and I put 1 ounce in my tank tonight to start with. I will go to 1/2 ounce/10 gallons in the future. It's probably going to take a fiil-up or two until all of the other stuff in the tank is used up. I'll keep you posted on the results.

[SVOboy]

That's good to hear, I'm going to be testing the PIB after I finish these acetone tests and then the iat resistor thing, I'll prolly end up just mixing it with some amount of acetone, if the acetone ends up working for me, that is.

[Matt Timion]

I'm going to have to redo the acetone test next weekend. I might drive an hour out to Nevada and try it out. I'm pretty certain this is the same test route of Ernie Rogers.

[SVOboy]

Different concentration or what?

[Matt Timion]

Nah, I'll redo the entire thing. If you remember, there was a confound in my testing proceedures last time. One way was uphill, one way was downhill. That in itself would account for the variance in gas mileage.

If anything I'm testing it now to determine if it has a noticable effect on my gas mileage. The Gas Log is 80% done, and after that I'm going to add a experiment feature with a results table for people to keep track of their experiments.

[SVOboy]

Woohoo, that's exciting. The PM5 chipping is also progressing fairly well, though I've hit the roadblock of my backup ecu disabling the shifter, and if you override it it dies, so I'm going to have to tweak my wiring a bit to disable the ecu know where the shifter is set at, but there are lots working on it now.

[SVOboy]

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=
PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5906665.WKU.&OS
=PN/5906665&RS=PN/5906665

"Without being limited to any particular theory of operation, the effectiveness of the present invention is believed to be related to a suppression in the formation of sub-50-micron diameter droplets as the fuel is sprayed. In addition, based on the present understanding of the invention, the additive of the present invention increases the momentary, or extensional, viscosity of the fuel droplets under conditions such as those encountered in engine fuel and combustion systems. Other physical properties of the fuel are also believed to be affected, including the surface tension and relative rigidity of the fuel droplets. A standard research octane number test showed an increase in octane number with a low concentration of high molecular weight polyisobutylene.

The modification of the physical properties of the fuel by adding high molecular weight polyisobutylene controls the rate at which fuel components vaporize. Fuel droplet size is more uniform. The polymeric additive of the present invention suppresses formation of very small droplets.

The momentary viscosity of spray droplets of fuel containing a low concentration of a very high molecular weight viscoelastic polymer is greatly increased over that of neat fuel. The changes in the fuel made by the additive, in particular, the physical properties of the fuel, result in reduced vaporization of the fuel during the intake stroke of the engine, and thereby increases the volumetric efficiency of 4- and 2-cycle ignition engines. A momentary increase of the viscosity of a fuel droplet also retards the fractional distillation of smaller fuel molecules, making the final fuel air mixture more homogeneous.

The extended polymer molecules can only relax by a thermal mechanism, over a millisecond duration period, which increases with molecular weight. This second transient effect of the high molecular weight polymer is especially significant where induction, vaporization, and combustion events are changing quickly with time, e.g., heavy load, rapid acceleration, and combinations of loading and acceleration. Very small concentrations of the additive are required.

The concentration of polymer in the fuel typically is 1 to 20 ppm. At these low concentrations, it is unlikely that the polymer could be involved in the process of combustion in a strict chemical, as distinguished from a purely physical-chemical, sense. It is known, however, that the polyisobutylene preferably used in this fuel additive is the most pure commercial grade of polyisobutylene available today. When heated in a vacuum at 200.degree. C., the cold trap fills with pure, water-white isobutylene. The residue shows no evidence of charring; rather, the process resembles the sublimation of carbon dioxide. Although this may account for the non-fouling action of this particular polymer additive composition (the ideal drag reducer for product pipeline flow improvement), it is difficult to see how this property could improve combustion on its own.

The additive also prevents drying of injectors (when used with a light carrier distillate), and reduces flow resistance in the entire fuel system (drag reduction). It may also serve to lubricate parts in the fuel system, but these potential benefits are believed to be secondary to volumetric efficiency and combustion effects. "

"Sixteen grams of ultra high molecular weight polyisobutylene, coated with polyethylene wax (designated as Oppanol.RTM. B246 by the supplier BASF) was cut into approximately 1/8" pieces. The pieces were cut from the center of each PIB pellet to reduce the amount of polyethylene wax that would be carried into the initial solutions. The pieces of polymer were added to 800 grams of isooctane. The container containing the polymer and the solvent was stirred with a flat blade for 24 hours. The resulting solution (hereafter referred to as PIB stock solution) contained 2% polyisobutylene (Oppanol.RTM. B246). 800 grams of the PIB stock solution was then combined with 800 grams of Exxon 100 Solvent Neutral Oil to form a final additive blend of 50% PIB stock solution, and 50% Solvent Neutral Oil. The additive mix was then put into 2 ounce containers. The additive was added to the fuel tank of a 1980 Nissan 280ZX prior to filling the fuel tank at a service station. It was added at the rate of 2 ounces to 10 gallons of fuel. Gasoline was then added to the tank to promote mixing. The Nissan 280ZX showed immediate improved performance in both acceleration and engine smoothness and gave gasoline mileage improvement. "

"EXAMPLE 4

The same PIB base stock solution used in Example 3 was used in a Ford Cosworth racing car. The amount of fuel needed for the race was calculated and was added to the vehicle's fuel tank. The additive was added to the fuel tank at a rate of 2 ounces per 10 gallons of fuel. The vehicle ran the race at its maximum speed. At the end of the race the fuel tank was drained and 21/2 gallons of fuel were removed. The driver estimated an improvement in fuel consumption of more than 20%.

EXAMPLE 5

The same PIB base stock solution used in Example 3 was used in the tow truck that transported the race car in example #4. The fuel mileage was calculated on the original trip to the race track. Additive was added to the tow truck at a rate of 2 ounces per 10 gallons of fuel. On the return trip an increase in fuel mileage of more than 25% was recorded. "

Interesting stuff, I think this is the next big acetone in terms of fuel additives.

[SVOboy]

<a href=http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Public_Files/Butyl/Butyl_Polymers/Worldwide/Technical_Guide_Vistanex_PIB.pdf target=_blank>More links to exxon</a>

[diamondlarry]

I have some interesting results on my PIB tests. I only had 223.125 miles on the tank but thought I would top it off anyway. the reason for the three decimal places is that my speedo is off 5%(on the low side) so when I added 5% to my 212.5 on the odometer, it came to 223.125. I used 5.442 gallons for an mpg figure of 41.0 mpg. This is only a 5% increase so far, but it looks promising. I do know that we are now being "treated" to the wonderful winter blend in our area so it may take a little longer to get accurate results.

[diamondlarry]

I have some more results to report on my PIB testing. I went for a 40 mile trip today(40.48 corrected, 38.55 odometer). The route consisted of mostly highway and about 8-9 miles of rural county roads. My speed was 55 on the highway and 50 on the county portion. I used a total of .790 gallons for the trip for 51.24 mpg. I made a total of 6 stops during the trip. Since I was trying to check the calibration of my Scanguage, the little coasting I did was with the engine running while in neutral. The next time I make the run I'll do my coasting with the engine off. I believe I could get this figure to closer to 55 mpg by shutting off the engine while coasting. By the way, the above mileage figures were obtained by the refill and divide the mileage by gallons method.
Larry

[SVOboy]

Cool cool, what is that compared to your baseline mileage? After your next result start a thread in the experiments section about it, or I could, if you wish, but you'll know more, of course, keep it up, I'm waiting for my acetone results still.

[SVOboy]

<a href=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5906665.WKU.&OS=PN/5906665&RS=PN/5906665>Patent info</a>

Very interesting indeed, this test is high up on my list, hopefully larry's results prove quite good.

[Matt Timion]

any more developments Larry? if you had to choose between PIB and acetone, which would you choose?

[diamondlarry]

With it being around the time of "winter blend" gas, it may take awhile to tell how well the PIB is working. If I had to make a choice right now I would probably choose the PIB. But, like I said, that could change with further testing of winter gas. For now, the reason I would choose PIB is cost. I paid $7.25/quart + shipping for my Torco 2-stroke oil. I used 6.5 ounces in a gallon of gas and use 1 ounce of that mixture/gallon of gas. At this rate it will take a LONG time to use up the oil.
PS: I forgot to say that I recently added some acetone and Coleman's fuel to my tank to test how PIB and those other things work together. Might be interesting.

[diamondlarry]

I was just made aware of an error in my calculations for using Torco oil. I will do some further checking to make sure I haven't messed up again but here is what I think the new amounts should be. 1.25 ounces of Torco oil in one gallon of gas then 1 ounce of that mixture/gallon of gas added to the fuel tank. This makes it even more economical than before. This means that one quart of oil will treat 3276.8 gallons of gas. This mixture results in a ppm count of around 25ppm.

[rh77]

After replacing the thermostat, PIB may be my next experiment. Any updates on the progress? I hear that John Deere makes an additive that contains good level of PIB...

RH77

[JustMe]

The links on this site don't work, but it is PIB
http://www.apdinc.com/GTAfuel.html

Here is the manufacturer
http://www.gtatech.com/news_wash_times_8252000.html

A comparison of different additives
http://mainland.cctt.org/istf2002/background/fuels.asp

[SVOboy]

That last link is quite interesting, I'll have to bookmark it. I'm glad they're phasing out mtbe, :)

[JustMe]

Louis LaPointe says he adds an ounce of Torco GP-7 or Torco EAL (engine assembly lube) to 16 ounces of acetone. Since we know the GP-7 is about one third PIB, it could be assumed the EAL is also. Actually the EAL might have a stronger concentration. I read somewhere that PIB is pink. The EAL is pink, also very thick like molasses.

[JustMe]

At the bottom of this article
http://www.dolphinaci.com/news/newsreleases13.html
it says that
"Fuel efficiency of the 20 percent biodiesel/diesel mixture was enhanced by the additive “Viscon,” which is the chemical polyisobutylene."

[diamondlarry]

Louis LaPointe says he adds an ounce of Torco GP-7 or Torco EAL (engine assembly lube) to 16 ounces of acetone. Since we know the GP-7 is about one third PIB, it could be assumed the EAL is also. Actually the EAL might have a stronger concentration. I read somewhere that PIB is pink. The EAL is pink, also very thick like molasses.
I would suggest testing the EAL mixture before adding it into the tank. I've seen several refferences where it was mentioned that EAL is very difficult if not impossible keep mixed. It was also suggested that EAL could cause things to gum up because of it's difficulty in mixing. I have not personally tested EAL so I'm just going by what I've read in different places.

[JustMe]

The Torco MPZ magnetic friction reducer is also pink. Does anybody know if it has PIB? It is very thin so might mix better, but is more expensive.

[diamondlarry]

That could be another good source for PIB. The GP-7 two cycle oil seems to mix very well and, it doesn't seem to have any problems with getting un-mixed. Until we get back to summer gas it's going to be hard to tell whether it increases mpg though.

[JanGeo]

This thread convinced me to join your group and I was wondering . . . after getting a pint of GP-7 Yesterday and adding 3cc to my 10-11 gallons of gas in my tank . . . if you all came up with an amount to add to the gas? The 20ppm seems to require about 1280/1,000,000 * 20 * 3 ounces where the 3 is because of the 33% PIB in the oil. This gives me 0.0768 ounces * 30 cc/ounce gives 2.304 cc of oil. Some are adding 2-3 ounces which is about 30 times the amount talked about here.

[diamondlarry]

I think what I ended up trying was 2 ounces of Torco oil in one gallon of gas. I then take 1 ounce of this mixture and add it to each gallon of gas I put in my car. This comes out to just under 50 ppm. Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to wait until summer gas is back until I will be able to tell how much good it's doing. I started my testing right when winter gas arrived.

[JanGeo]

I think that comes out to 122ppm = 2/128/128 * 1,000,000 but anyway why are you waiting for summer gas - winter gas needs treatment also.

[diamondlarry]

I'm using it right now but with the winter gas, I haveb't noticed much of an increase.

[jamescartagena]

I made the following mix to add to my 25 gallon fillup last week and filled up this morning. Worked out to 22 mpg exactly. This was with bad traffic two days out of that week. I haven't gotten 22 since summer! This is the best winter mileage I have had so far. Thanks for the tip!

7.5 ounces Acetone
5 ounces Xylene
5 cc Torco GP-7
2 ounces Ethos FR

Add entire contents to 25 gallons

I am trying the following mixture this week. This is the one recommended by Louis LaPonte.

1 ounce Xylene
1 ounce Torco GP-7
14 ounces Acetone

Add 3 ounces for every 10 gallons. I am trying his since he has been doing this for years and see which is better.

[JanGeo]

WOH that is quite a mixture - will have to lookup the Ethos FR and price some Xylene...

[SVOboy]

Ethos FR has been discussed here previously.

[jamescartagena]

Added the second mixture to a full tank of gasoline and actually noticed a drop in economy. I attribute that to the different gasoline I used this time. I always fill up at the same gas station in Pennsylvania, but this time I filled up in Maryland where I work. It is oxygenated and after a few miles I noticed a difference in how the vehicle ran. Felt like I didn't add any additive. Power was less also. Noticed the same thing before when I added a few gallons of Maryland gas just to get back home. I'm estimating about 19 mpg so far. This is the worst mileage I had had in over a year. I will drive until empty and add a few gallons to try to flush this gas out.
I used the same mixture in my wife's minivan with PA gasoline and she is noticing an improvement in mileage so I'm pretty sure it is the gas. A coworker notices the same thing. When he adds a few gallons of MD gas to get back home to Hanover, PA he notices the difference in terms of less power and economy. I'm running out of Ethos FR, I believe it is $21.95 with Shipping and Handling for 16 ounces and Xylene costs $12 for a gallon.

[JanGeo]

Xylene price is about the same I paid for Acetone $12.99 at Ace Hardware but I had a $5 coupon... They have Xylene there also - will check it out . . . Thanks! Ace Gallon Xylene $10.99

Sounds like you got some gas with alcohol in it - I hear it kills the effect of the other additives.

[jamescartagena]

It didn't say on the pump but after looking at an Exxon Mobil map from June 2004, (It may be outdated) Maryland uses reformulated gas. Right now I am at 1/2 tank and usually I get about 310 miles to a 1/2 tank. Right now the odometer is at 285. Same driving habits and everything. I feel sorry for the MD drivers. They don't know what they are missing. Even the loss of power is noticeable!

I'm sticking to good old regular gas from now on.

[JanGeo]

I found the following post in pes_acetone message 1421 and I am wondering at what concentrations of GP-7 we should start to be concerned with when using it with acetone. My friend with the F150 mixed the acetone and the GP-7 with some gas in a beer bottle and dumped the mixture into the tank when he filled it up and threw the bottle away so I don't know if the stuff mixed or not. Looks like some testing is needed.


"DO NOT USE TORCO EAL IN YOUR FUEL!!

Acetone does not mix with PIB. I have melted pure PIB in various solvents like toluene and if you pour acetone in a little, the PIB turns to gum."

[SVOboy]

How much does this torco stuff cost again? Since acetone seems to do the devil's work to my gas mileage I'm looking for something else, :p

[diamondlarry]

How much does this torco stuff cost again? Since acetone seems to do the devil's work to my gas mileage I'm looking for something else, :p

$8.20/500 ml bottle+ s&h http://www.torcousa.com/products/product_detail.asp?intProductsGroupIDPK=2

[JanGeo]

Check with your local Dirtbike shop they may have it - my local bike shop sells it for $6.99 and got it for $5.00 because my brother works there and I have known the guy since before he opened the business.

I just put a drop of the GP-7 into 100% acetone and it formed a ball of oil in the bottom of the glass jar - shook it up and the oil broke up then slowly reformed into a single ball again. So far no separation into something gummy - maybe the other form of it (EAL) is not as compatible as GP-7.

As far as mileage with GP-7 by all means add it in - I ran this stuff the first time and was surprized how much of a difference it makes and have used it all the time since while skipping the acetone for the last half a tank and not seeing much of a difference with or without acetone. Actually the mpg stayed up after using the acetone and did not go down much if any when I didn't use it. But I continue to use the Torco GP-7 and only 2.5-3cc per 10 gallons.

[JanGeo]

EAL engine assembly lube
Looks like it may be something in the lube that makes it sticky that reacts with acetone so the GP-7 is not a problem nor is the PIB it is the carrier in the EAL that gets to be a sticky mess.

[JanGeo]

Just picked up a quart of Xylene from Ace in a 20% off sale . . . man that is the stuff in spay paint PHEW!!! NASTY!!!

[rh77]

Just picked up a quart of Xylene from Ace in a 20% off sale . . . man that is the stuff in spay paint PHEW!!! NASTY!!!


Basically, Xylene is the additive that gas companies add to bulk transports of raw gasoline to increase the Octane rating. I used to use it to increase tanks of fuel in my Turbo Lancer Evo. Unfortunately, I ended up spilling about 2 liters in my garage on a cold Winter day 2-3 years ago (due to my own clutziness and fumbling in the cold). My shoes and the tires started melting (and boy did it stink). Be careful. Why Xylene, BTW? If you sign up for the "contractor's" program at Sherwin Williams, you can buy 5-gallons bulk at a discounted rate. You don't even need to be a contractor.

RH77

[JanGeo]

Why Xylene because I have a can of plastic dip that is drying out and I needed to soften it up more and that is one of the main ingredance as well as MEK . . . and if I should want to boost the octane a little in my gas. I do have an old high compression engine in my 78R100S BMW. Probably should have baught another gallon of Acetone while on sale but I don't want to stockpile too many flamables.

[bobbyfontaine]

I have been following the politics of PIB as a gasoline additive for a very long time. You are the first people I have found that take this seriously enough to get down in the trenches and find out if and how it works. I haven't even ever tried it myself. I am getting some Torco-GP-7 today and trying it out.

I read at another site that linked me to this thread that it works well until the engines control unit (ECU) adjusts the ignition system so that it no longer gets the extra mileage. I have always suspected that this would happen. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

I believe what happens is that the ECU measures the oxygen content of emissions before and after the catalytic converter. It then adjusts the firing in order to allow the proper amount of oxygen into the piston chamber when the spark plug fires. With PIB, that extra oxygen is not needed. It doesn't work that way.

It works more like gunpowder being restricted from oxygen so that it explodes rather than ignites. But I do not know. This is just a theory and then I saw that posting that supported my concerns. Has anyone who has been using it found an immediate increase in performance and mileage only to lose it later, even after a few hundred miles?

[SVOboy]

That's an interesting theory. I've never quite understood the ideas that an ecu would make different types of fuel worthless. I know that if you have a knock sensor it will compensate for octane and such, but I have no knock sensor, and only one o2 sensor, so woot for me I guess.

[JanGeo]

From what I have read the PIB keeps the big and small hydrocarbon molecules of gasoline mixed so that they burn better and more completely and the synthetic oil helps upper cylinder lubrication. The decrease in performance is a result of the operator using more gas pedal . . . but it could possibly be buildup on the O2 sensor if too much GP-7 is used. From my readings it looks like my MPG is going up except for this present tank which is due to very short driving trips of less than a mile and the low engine temps. So far it looks like I am only getting about 37mpg for the tank average - of course the epa is 30-33 heh heh heh!

[MetroMPG]

it looks like my MPG is going up

do you attribute that to the GP-7?

[JanGeo]

I think it is a combination of things - all that matters is that it goes up and then I can eliminate one item at a time to see what will bring it back down again. It looks like the GP-7 helps right away but at the time I was adding it I did not have my ScanGauge calibrated so the readings at that time were not consistant with what I get now. The one big factor that limits what I get for mileage is the roads that I drive on. Did some nice smooth 30-40 mph driving yesterday with almost no traffic on country roads and averaged 45mpg until I tried getting up a 16 degree driveway covered with snow. That dragged it back down to 43mpg for the day. The tank average is going up however. Traction control kicked in and it killed the engine power a few feet from the plateau - I had to roll back down backwards - talk about hairy - front wheels were locked and turned sideways and almost had no control of the steering and of course the driveway turns and has plenty of trees to hit on either side.

What I do find is that adding the GP-7 and acetone allow the maximum mpg to get higher than without it.

[bobbyfontaine]

PIB has a very interesting history behind it. Does anyone care to hear about it?

As for the ECU, I guess I will have to get some Torco GP7 and see for myself. My theory if it does turn out to be the case is that the ECU is designed to meet cafe standards for fuel that gets really bad mileage like the winter fuel you talk about.

It targets gasoline that can just barely meet the necessary standard. What it does is adjust the levels of oxygen needed to squeeze out those extra miles. So basically what it does it use a trial and error method to arrive at the specified mileage. When it hits on a sequence of firing and oxygenate content that gives that mileage, it adjusts to run that way until another fuel is added. It also memorizes the fuel sequence so if you get gas from different dealers, it first tries the sequences that worked in the past.

So if this theory proves out, which I hope it does not, when PIB is added, the ECU operates in reverse by moving around the ignition system until it drives down the mileage to the specific standard rather than leaving it alone. I am not sure about any of this. It is hard to get straight answers out of people who know but what a government expert told me was that even if PIB were added to all gasoline, that a lot of cars computer systems would make it work in reverse.

PIB turns gasoline into dynamite. It does not need the extra high oxygen mixture. It explodes to find the oxygen, which it doesn't find because the explosion is turned into power first. PIB is mixed with gasoline to make some kinds of explosives. Gasoline without it is like a limp dick. It needs oxygen to make it burn at a high rate rather than explode. PIB is like viagra. But a system that is designed to make the most out of weak fuel might give PIB trouble.

[MetroMPG]

jangeo, would you expect your mileage to improve as your engine/drivetrain gets broken in anyway? (not to throw cold water on your tests - just wondering.)

is that even an issue anymore (break-in periods)? if so, i wonder how long it takes.

this may be affecting me also, since my car is just at 6500 km (4000 mi.)

[JanGeo]

Yeah there should be some improvement as it breaks in but I am well beyond the EPA estimates of 30-33 and I have not even added the PTFE additives yet - come on warm weather!! Got to crawl under the 6 inch high front end to get to the tranny fill plug first off and then after the next oil change at 3750 miles (at 2445 miles now) I add the engine treatment. The Ride out to the Cape I did about half an hour at 30-40 mph and that should have resulted in some really good MPG readings but it did not and I did not add any Acetone to that tank of gas. It lowered my average and I even had some tail winds going there - tried to add the Acetone on the cape but could not get any fuel up the syphen hose to mix it with and it was COLD out there - plastic PVC hose got too stiff to go down the filler pipe.

[bobbyfontaine]

I went to the website - GTATech.com - which is the home base of Professor Waters who fond that PIB had these properties in gasoline. They claim that there is no loss of performance from the engine analyzing fuel and making adjustments, that if there are any, it will correct them quickly except perhaps on a few vehicles.

They also claim that it will sustain the positive properties even after PIB is no longer added to the fuel for a few tanks. This is because it sticks to everything in the system, building up slightly but only enough to protect parts and increase performance through easier flow and less fuel sticking to the sides of the piston chamber. It actually takes a few tanks to get this effect which you should notice more performance enhancement until it is coated and then it will last for a few tanks after stopping using it.

So if you are measuring before and after results, be sure to understand that it will stay in the system for a considerable time after terminating usage. There is a lot of information at this site that you will find useful, tests and results, testimonials, science etc.

[brick]

Hi guys. Just thought I would chime in and let you know that I am about to do a long-term study of the GTAT fuel additive over the next several months. I ordered a bottle last night and hope to get started with my next fillup in a week or so. At the moment I'm planning to do 3 or 4 cycles of 2-3 tanks with followed by 2-3 tanks without. (That should take 4-5 months at the rate I consume fuel.) That bit about the additive "staying in the system" is a bit troublesome but I don't think that it's too much of a concern. If the theory that they are pitching is really valid, the real benefits come from the solute PIB influencing droplet formation. That would require it to be in the fuel, not on fuel system parts. I've been wrong before, though. Time will tell!

[Matt Timion]

Hi guys. Just thought I would chime in and let you know that I am about to do a long-term study of the GTAT fuel additive over the next several months. I ordered a bottle last night and hope to get started with my next fillup in a week or so. At the moment I'm planning to do 3 or 4 cycles of 2-3 tanks with followed by 2-3 tanks without. (That should take 4-5 months at the rate I consume fuel.) That bit about the additive "staying in the system" is a bit troublesome but I don't think that it's too much of a concern. If the theory that they are pitching is really valid, the real benefits come from the solute PIB influencing droplet formation. That would require it to be in the fuel, not on fuel system parts. I've been wrong before, though. Time will tell!

Welcome Brick. If you wouldn't mind, please start a new thread in the experiments section so that you can log your progress. When you're done we can post results so future visitors can see if it actually works or not.

[brick]

Sure thing. I'll start a thread once I begin to get some numbers.

[scientist1]

PIB is a common detergent used to clean fuel injectors and valves. There are several producers of PIB, each of which has thier own small chemical modification. Having motor oil as the carrier is probably not the best way to get the additive into your gas since it will burn in the combustion chamber and leave deposits which can cause knocking. You can find PIB in STP gas treatment and fuel injector cleaner. Gumout also uses this chemistry.

If you want to clean the entire fuel system, you need PEA chemistry. This is found in STP complete fuel system cleaner or Techron Fuel system cleaner.

There are some products that have little or no detergent in them like Lucas upper cylinder lubricant with fuel injector cleaner or Sea Foam. The Lucas product is oil with some viscosity improver and Sea Foam is a mix of rubbing alcohol, mineral oil, and kerosene.

Hope this helps you find something that will really work.

[ZugyNA]

PIB (polyisobutylene) is a synthetic rubber? When used in gas to increase mpg a high molecular weight PIB is used...like gum rubber dissolved in lacquer thinner. Read the patent?

[theclencher]

I'ye yoosta drink Pib on occasion,,,,,,,,, don't see it anymore. :confused:

[MnFocus]

*Groan* :rolleyes: Yup the corn is ripe in Minnesota!

[unstable bob]

I'ye yoosta drink Pib on occasion,,,,,,,,, don't see it anymore. :confused:

It's kinda like Dr Pepper, right? I remember it from my military days in the Midwest. :)

[101mpg]

Any further results with this additive? I found lots of initial activity but no follow-ups.

[tundrastoy]

hi guys dose this mix pose a problem for the catalatic convert thanks

[itjstagame]

Also I wonder if diamondlarry was takign in to account the fuel he was adding to his car. If he's adding 5 gals + 5oz of gas/pib mixture does that mean you're using 5gasl + 5oz of gas?

I am still curious about additives but everyone has seemed to go away from them. I did try the EAL and Friction Reducer and noticed no change. The current additive I'm trying is looking more promising but we'll see later.