Prius has arrived

[zpiloto]

Prius is supposed to arrive this week. Going to pick it up in Longview this weekend. That will give me a 300 mile drive home to get aquainted with it.:D

[SVOboy]

Dang meng, you're going to be killing us all. 60% over one some 99 auto! You're nuts!

[MetroMPG]

Nice. You're going to have some fun!

[zpiloto]

Dang meng, you're going to be killing us all. 60% over one some 99 auto! You're nuts!

I don't think so my wife will be driving it mostly but it will be fun to see what I can get out of it. I'll be lucky if I can get a tank or two like Metro. But one way or the other for now I'll be in the top ten since there are only 2 hybrids.:p

[JanGeo]

Had along discussion with Dan at eCycle about a buck-boost controller to connect a low voltage high amp hour battery pack to a Prius to add more capacity to the battery - seems when you start adding power to the battery the programming starts getting confused about the battery charge level so there was supposed to be a bunch of additional things it needed to do to "fool" the on board computer into seeing a properly functioning battery. Turned out to be a big mess of things that in the end would void the warrentee and would not be something that the typical car owner would be able to do to their car without getting electrocuted.

[rh77]

Had along discussion with Dan at eCycle about a buck-boost controller to connect a low voltage high amp hour battery pack to a Prius to add more capacity to the battery - seems when you start adding power to the battery the programming starts getting confused about the battery charge level so there was supposed to be a bunch of additional things it needed to do to "fool" the on board computer into seeing a properly functioning battery. Turned out to be a big mess of things that in the end would void the warrentee and would not be something that the typical car owner would be able to do to their car without getting electrocuted.

That stinks -- I'm afraid the mentality that marketers wanted to ingrain into the buying public is that Hybrids don't have to be plugged-in (remember the HCH-I commercials with the kid at the Science Fair and he had to explain that it didn't need to be plugged-in). BUT, in recent months, the average person is aware of "hackers" being able to plug in overnight, and get awesome FE. I know it's complicated technology, but Toyota should make the option available and highly educate the public like Honda did. They've been ahead of the game for years, and they should stay that way.

But, most of all, congrats zpiloto! Even if it's the wife's primary driver, you can get your hands on it from time to time ;)

RH77

[krousdb]

You're gonna love it if you can get it away from your wife. As for the additional battery capacity, been there, done that. Absolutely correct that the battery ecu will not let you benefit from additional capacity. I read that the next gen will have the plug in option, but that may have just been speculation. I'm waiting to see what Toyota and Honda come up with over the next few years, saving my money for that time. If any of those future offerings can woooop the VX, I will buy it lickety split.

[zpiloto]

Yea I would loved to drive it all the time and see what I'm capable of with it. The whole hybrid thing will be interesting. I'll see how long the learning cure will be.:D

[schmeep]

yeah, the next generation prius is supposed to have a much improved battery life that will allow the electric motor to do more of the driving than it does now, i've heard over 100 mpg won't be out of reach.

apparently to fully charge the battery (from empty) by plugging it in won't cost much more than $1 in electricity. not too shabby.

[JanGeo]

Couple of problems with NiMh battery in the Prius - First NiMh have poor charging efficiency meaning you put a lot more energy into them than you get out of them if you fully charge them. The Prius keeps the battery at about half charge avoiding a lot of heat at full charge also. Second problem is managing 245 volt battery pack went each cell is 1.4 volts = about 175 cells in series. Each cell has its own little leakage rate and can get out of balance or over charge sooner than the one next to it. Third - running it full cycle in pure electric driving mode will shorten the battery life. Forth the oil companies have the patent on NiMh powered vehicles and do not allow large capacity batteries to be used with more than about 10ah - not that there is a voltage limit however.

It would be interesting if you could power up the motor winding in the electric motor with grid power and have it charge the battery that way. Maybe just feed it with raw AC power with the windings disconnected and let the circuitry regen it right into the battery like you were riding the brakes down a long hill. Anyone try running down a long hill and see how much charge they can put into the battery??

[Sludgy]

NiMH batteries use expensive nickel and misch metal for the cathode and anode, respectively. Lithium batteries will (eventually) get very cheap because they don't need many grams of lithium for the anode for a given output. The newer iron phosphate cathode materials are dirt cheap.

Lithiums have much better energy and power density than NiMH batteries. So,
hybrids and PHEVs are eventually going to use lithiums. NiMH batteries will be consigned to the dustbin of history, much like the Edison cell.

[JanGeo]

When the Li-Ion cells have the charge and discharge ratings that the NiMh have then they will be used but right now they can't be made safely in large ah capacities so they only can connect a lot of little cells together and using additional circuitry to manage them - gets complicated really fast. Some of the larger cell formats don't have the output rating that they claim or are way too expensive.

[schmeep]

yeah, it's the lithium batteries that are going to be in the new generation prius,

i don't know how they work, or what makes them better than the old ones (NiMH i assume), i have just read a few articles that have made the claims of over 100 mpg.

[JanGeo]

They can be left in any charge state unlike Lead Acid - have a much higher charge/discharge efficiency and with the Titianium Oxide plate coating can handle much higher charge discharge rates than before and will have much higher cycle life but not yet as high as NiMh operating in a narrow charge state. It is the battery of choice mostly because Lithium is the Lightest Metal known (lighter than water) and produces the highest voltage per cell of any metal combination thus requiring less cells to make more voltage.

[The Toecutter]

NiMH batteries use expensive nickel and misch metal for the cathode and anode, respectively.

No big deal. In production for automotive volume, materials cost isn't near as much as assorted manufacturing costs.

In the 1990s, ECD Chairman Robert Stemple quoted $150/kWh in volume for 20,000 electric cars a year for the large AH Ovonics. More recently, Team Fate at UC Davis claims to have contacted experts on this battery, $200-300/kWh today in the same volume.

Further, nickel is much more plentiful than lithium. The known commercial reserves are 62,000,000,000 kg of nickel(USGS). 5,000,000,000 kg is produced each year. You need about 7 kg of nickel for each kWh of battery.

We have about 10,000,000,000 kg of Lithium(DNPM.gov). Each kWh of battery needs about 2 kg of lithium.

Lithium batteries will (eventually) get very cheap because they don't need many grams of lithium for the anode for a given output. The newer iron phosphate cathode materials are dirt cheap.

Hopefully they will get cheap. What we need isn't cheap materials, but large scale modules that are sufficiently safe so that cost per kWh in mass production can decline and lessen the need for a complicated management system.

Nickel batteries are there. But the oil companies have the patent on large scale Ovonics. 18650-size Lithium batteries would be $250-500/kWh in automotive volume(AC Propulsion). So per kWh, nickel would likely be a bit cheaper in mass production.

Further, the world's lithium reserves won't be able to run as many cars as its nickel reserves.

Lithiums have much better energy and power density than NiMH batteries. So, hybrids and PHEVs are eventually going to use lithiums.

Only so much lithium to go around.

Any sustainable future that does not involve stripmining the Earth bare will require use of multiple chemistries in both hybrids and pure EVs. If we stick to one chemistry, there won't be enough resources to go around. To me, the best route looks to be a combination of LiIon EVs, NiMH EVs, and PbA EVs and also hybrids using a wide array of chemistries. Firefly's lead acid batteries apparantly have specific capacity exceeding that of NiMH.

NiMH batteries will be consigned to the dustbin of history, much like the Edison cell.

Much like the Edison cell, Ovonic batteries last ****ing forever!

Cobasy's very conservatively rates them to 1,200 cycles to 80% discharge, Team Fate at UC Davis claims 1,750 cycles to 100% discharge. Today's lithiums get around 400-500 cycles to 80-100% discharge.

It is unknown how long lithium batteries will last in a vehicle application, but the general consensus is 100,000+ miles until 80% of usable capacity is remaining with proper temperature management. Lithium battery capacity can rapidly degrade if the batteries are left to sit unused. NiMH batteries in electric Toyota RAV4s owned by Southern California Edison have exceeded 150,000 miles, still going strong after 10 years with no capacity or power loss yet. Southern California Edison has had only 6 module failures in over 3,000,000 miles of fleet use. Other RAV4 EVs simply haven't been driven enough to accumulate that number of miles. Many RAV4 EV users suspect their packs may last over 250,000 miles.


Would someone be able to wrestle control of large AH NiMHs from the oil companies and mass produce them, they would likely last much longer than Lithium Ions and be far cheaper per mile for use in a vehicle than LiIon. NiMH doesn't need as complex of a management system as LiIon when used in large AH modules, helping drastically reduce mass production costs. NiMH can also create much more kWh for EV battery packs than LiIon given usable world reserves of these resources. These benefits come at the expense of range and horsepower compared to lithium. But even with sufficient aerodynamics, EVs can do comparable range to gas cars on NiMH. The Solectria Force(a converted Geo Metro sedan) entered in the Tour De Sol did 200-250 miles per charge at highway speeds. The Solectria Sunrise can do over 300 miles per charge at highway speeds(Did 373 miles per charge in a Tour De Sol run in 1998).



I don't think it would be wise for EV producers and hybrid producers to put all their eggs in one basket. Someone needs to tell Chevron-Texaco that they can go **** themselves, and defy their legal reigns on that patent, and then REFUSE to pay any fines in court. A Chinese automaker would be in a great position to do this.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Yep, yep, all - battery dot com has 18650 li-ion's for ~$600/kwh, and nimh F's for ~$780/kwh. Even at this price gasoline and ICE's are still cheaper at their *size, but all electric allows for more peak power with minimal efficiency penalties/better drivability, as well as much less in the way of GHG and pollutant emissions. I think the best part is that small single occupant vehicles can be easily powered off of a couple solar panels/deep cycle LA batteries, so a consumer could concievably put together small, efficient, transport that's quick and environmentally sound for less than the cost of an Aveo. Here's the Rav4 EV study (http://www.evchargernews.com/miscfiles/sce-rav4ev-100k.pdf#search=%22rav4%20ev%20sce%22).

*I think cars are deliberately designed to be large/not aero in order to discourage other drivetrains. Gasoline is only cheap via large scale production, just like batteries are only expensive via small scale.

[The Toecutter]

With today's Li Ion battery prices, cost parity between gasoline and electric would be around $3.50/gallon assuming 150,000 mile life for LiIon. With automotive volume to get price to $300/kWh, cost parity drops to around $2.00/gallon.

With NiMH, cost parity would be around $1.20/gallon and lower with mass production to bring price to $200/kWh. In extreme cases, you'd be able to give gasoline away for free and the maintenance cost alone of the gas car would still outweigh everything for the electric.

With today's lead acid batteries and today's conversions, cost parity ranges from $0.60-3.00/gallon depending on vehicle converted, typical discharge depth, and other factors. Electric VW Rabbits built from an Electro Automotive kit achieve cost parity with their gasoline counterparts around $1.50-1.80/gallon, for instance. My electric Triumph is projected to reach cost parity with its gas counterpart at under $1.00/gallon, but I'll wait and see how it really turns out. Lead acid batteries are much more dynamic due to their susceptibility to deep discharges and generally short range.

*I think cars are deliberately designed to be large/not aero in order to discourage other drivetrains. Gasoline is only cheap via large scale production, just like batteries are only expensive via small scale.

The more simpler, likelier explanation is that less aero drag induced means less power required at speed equates to less engine wear and from that, less maintenance. Auto maintenance is the bread and butter of the auto industry. when GM, Ford, and Dodge were still profitable, aftermarket repairs and services was half of their profit margins. An extremely aero design could have dramatically reduced maintenance costs. The less you spend on repairs, the less money the automakers bring in.

It's not really style that is effecting aerodynamics as many would think. By and large the auto industry still ignores simple advancements like wheel spoilers, bellypans, and attention to the front grill of cars, which would have absolutely no effect on the appearance of the car itself and no significant cost. In order to get these things, you're either getting a Toyota or Honda, or shelling out big bucks for a luxury car.

[JanGeo]

Hey Prius hypermillers! What are the basic tricks to get high mileage in one and anyone ever charge up the battery by down hills?

[omgwtfbyobbq]

The more simpler, likelier explanation is that less aero drag induced means less power required at speed equates to less engine wear and from that, less maintenance. Auto maintenance is the bread and butter of the auto industry. when GM, Ford, and Dodge were still profitable, aftermarket repairs and services was half of their profit margins. An extremely aero design could have dramatically reduced maintenance costs. The less you spend on repairs, the less money the automakers bring in.

I'm not sure if that really applies since from what I've "heard", most wear occurs during cold startups, so clocking lots of long highway trips won't result in nearly as much wear compared to twice as any cold starts... As a matter of fact, Toyota's bread and butter engine the 22r seems to run really cool, so the key to engine life back in the 80s may have been minimal changes between cold/operating temperature.
Besides, it;s not like they wouldn't purposefully design parts that failed so they could recall them later, with a "friend" getting the contract. My uncle worked as a tech for Pac Bell, and he would not accept a promotion as manager because he didn't want to have to deal with that BS. Anecdotal obviously, but still I think it's pertinent.