Making money with Solar panels

[FormulaTwo]

I have been reading a lot lately about solar panels.
It seems to be a fact that if you power your home off of them, any unused energy can go back into the grid. Where the energy company will actually pay you money for the energy you are generating.

My question, is this.....


If the electric company is giving you money to supply them with energy. What does this equal out to as in $ per kwh?

Would it be worth it, to put solar panels up, and just pump this into the grid to make money off of the electric company? Without using it for your home at all?

Lets say, if you lived near a river, and rigged up a large amount of hydroelectric generators, and fed that into the grid?

Or maybe, hook up a ton of wind generators, and feed those directly into the grid.

What if one were to buy an acre of land. Using these 3 technologies, all for the purpose of supplying clean energy, and making money off of the electric company at the same time?

[JanGeo]

The grid pays you about 1 or 2 cents per KWH and charged way mor ethan that so it basically doesn't pay. If you try to feed energy back into the grid I think they block the meter from turning backwards. I also heard that they don't power factor correct the metering so if you have a PF of anything other than 1 you end up paying the amp hours not the watt hours. This means you get screwed for a motor drawing current while it spins under no load conditions. Oh yeah and then if you do sell back to the frid they also charge (sue) you for the loss of income from the supplier of the power that your local power company buys their energy from.

PS: does someone want me to upgrade my membership?

[omgwtfbyobbq]

If there are regulations in place, it can pay well (http://www.macslab.com/optsolarpge.html). But it's a big YMMV depending on state. And even if there's legislation in place like in CA, the utilities hate it because they loose money if they have to pay the going rate on your electricity.

[Silveredwings]

'Net metering' varies all over the place. In some cases, they don't give you squat. In other areas, they charge you what amounts to retail for what you use, and pay you effectively wholesale for what you contribute. This makes sense since they maintain the grid infrastructure. They can put 2 meters on your house. One has a ratchet for turning on one direction only. The other turns the other way so they can measure the power flow in each direction separately. Sometimes they charge you a base fee for being connected independent of the amount of power that flows.

In MA, if you apply for solar panel tax incentives, your system has to be grid tied and return surplus energy to the grid.

[cfg83]

FormulaTwo -

I may be wrong about this, but I heard that here in California, if your are just a homeowner, you can't sell to the grid beyond what your house is "sized" to draw. That is, if you build up a system that is generating way more electricity than the power company has determined that you need (based on historical usage?), then the extra electricity that goes into the grid is theirs for free because they won't have to compensate you for it.

It sounds like you are speculating on becoming a "teeny weeny green power company", which is not just an average homeowner, right?

CarloSW2

[Ryland]

If you figure that at full price per Kilawatt hour that solar has around a 15-20 year pay back, that would meen that with net metering you get over a 100 year pay back, right?
where solar has the biggest pay back is in new construction, a friend of mine was looking in to having power lines run to there house, the power compeny was going to charge $7,000 to run the wires, and hook everything up, and then there is the monthly electric bill, meter reading fee, and all the other fees and taxes that are charged every month, so if they were to take that $7,000 and invest it in solar, then it really would have been an investment, it would have paid for a system that would have suplied electricity for many many years without a monthly bill.
trying to take a home sized renewable energy system, and use it as your retirement income is not normaly very practical because a home sized system is exactly that, a home sized system, and back feeding the grid is mostly a way to prevent that extra electricity from being wasted, or lost.

[JanGeo]

Ryland I think you nailed it!

Also the grid connection requires one heck of an expensive inverter.

[Brock]

Yes the payback on solar can vary from about 15 years in the Southwest to about 30+ years in the Northeast. You are far better off producing just enough power to power what you use rather then try to make money selling it back to the grid. As other have noted, say you generate 100% of your load and you regular power is $.15 / KW basically you were just paid $.15 per KW for your power generated. Now if you try to bulk sell that back to the grid you will likely get paid for wholesale prices, typically about 1/2 to 1/3 that of your base rate. So the time it would take to recover your cost is now double to triple the investment.

I have a small array, only 500w and 24kw of batteries and 5kw of inverter to power backup things in our home. Basically a HUGE ups that is charged by solar instead of the grid. In summer I can run our fridge, freezer and other small loads off solar alone. In winter I just make enough to keep the batteries topped off. My inverters are grid tie capable. Basically they take power from the grid and any excess power I create via solar gets added to the mix. So say I am using 2000watts of power and my panels are putting out 400w, now I am only pulling 1600w from the grid.

I always say my system payback came the first time we had a power outage and we still had power.

Bottom line it's still to expensive at this point, otherwise every utility would be doing this.

If your intrested I ahve some more infor on my site at
http://www.uwgb.edu/nevermab/solar.htm

[JanGeo]

Well my grid power costs me $0.25 per KWH and it is going up so payback is a little faster. What you want to do is have electric vehicles and then you save on Gas TOO!!! All powered from Solar and Wind.

[Brock]

Once again I need to get Darell on here. He has grid tied solar and a RAV4 EV He drives the RAV like 15k a year and has no electricity bill to speak of. His long trip car is a Prius ;)

[The Toecutter]

Once again I need to get Darell on here. He has grid tied solar and a RAV4 EV He drives the RAV like 15k a year and has no electricity bill to speak of. His long trip car is a Prius

This Darell?

http://evnut.com/images/rav4/rav_misc/petrocide02.jpg

http://evnut.com/


Small world...

[onegammyleg]

I think the only people making money with solar panels are the ones selling them.

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/ARP/ARP116/Shakdo_C.jpg

[Brock]

Thats the one, I shot him an email.

[Ryland]

The only people making money with cars are the ones selling them as well, and I bet the people selling hummers make more money then the guys selling hybrids.
The people I know who sell solar panals aren't rich, they aren't in the buissness to get rich, if they wanted to get rich they could more easly do it by other meens, but yes, some of them do make a living by selling solar.

[darelldd]

Howdy.

Once again I need to get Darell on here.
OK, I'm here. Brock drags me into yet ANOTHER den of lions. :) Yup, same Darell, the EVnut.

I also sell solar systems (Don't own the biz, I'm just a sales guy). I started selling them this year, and I can tell you from my vast experience that this is NOT the way to make money. And it isn't why I do it. If I total up my hours, I'm making about $2.50/hour at my "job." Most other ways I promote clean energy and transportation pays me nothing, so this is like free money to me.

And the way my solar pay back works is like this: It was INSTANT. The moment I turned it on, I started saving money. Not five years. Not 20. Immediately. How, you ask? Well, because the $70/month that I'm paying on the loan I took out to pay for the system is less than my average electricity bill used to be. Then add in the fact that my system also accounts for 1000 miles/month worth of gasoline savings, and presto. I've got gravy! My house and my main vehicle are almost perfectly covered by my relatively small system. We use a gasoline car just a few thousand miles/year. The rest of our vehicle miles are in the EV - charged from the grid-connected solar array.

[SVOboy]

Wow dude, tell us more about the EV!

[darelldd]

Wow dude, tell us more about the EV!
Well, the link to my EV pages has already been posted above with a picture of my current EV. And the link is in my signature if I can just figure out how to make it show with my posts.

Start here: http://evnut.com
and then if you have more specific questions we can probably take it to a more relevant forum.

[SVOboy]

Oooh, I spaced on the first link, I'm sorry. I now see your signature, so cool. It's all fancy and what not.

[onegammyleg]

Howdy.
If I total up my hours, I'm making about $2.50/hour at my "job."

WOOHOOO - thats big money ---IF YOUR IN BURUNDI :D :thumbup:

[The Toecutter]

Welcome aboard Darell! I'm sure there is a lot of information you could share with us on EV politics that isn't on your site.

Have you seen the study by Cuenca and Gaines in like 2000, that found if NiMH EVs were mass produced, cost parity with like gas cars would be at under $1.30/gallon, factoring in periodic battery replacement?

How many miles are on your RAV4 EV's pack and is it still delivering full rated capacity?

What is your opinion on Chevron and the NiMH battery and do you have any good data for me to add to my collection on this issue?

Do you have any plans to give your RAV4 EV some aeromods? A full bellypan, rear wheel skirts, grill block, and other aerodynamic modifications, assuming the car doesn't have any of them, could significantly increase your range. How about LRR tires? Synthetic lube for your single speed gear ratio? 0/0/0 alignment?

Do Burundi chicks run around topless???

Why but of course they do! Why wouldn't they? :cool:

[onegammyleg]

Do Burundi chicks run around topless???

PICS PICS PICS!!!


They sure do , check these ones out.

http://www.eatwild.com/IMAGES/preening_chickens_lg.jpg

[The Toecutter]

Man, those chicks look sooo tasty.

[JanGeo]

Hey Darelldd

Do those flashlight emitters have a switching regulator that can adjust the current driving the Luxon LED so you can vary the intensity? Seems that the one I have is a little too bright and if a switcher was used to drop the supply voltage say from a couple of Lithium cells in series or maybe even a single cell you would gain some efficiency and allow some really long run times at a low setting. Just in case you get trapped in a cave in or something.

I also have to wonder why those chargers are so heavy??

[WisJim]

Wheather or not you can make money is dependent a lot on your local electric utility. One utility in Wisconsin, (WE Energy, unfortunately not my utility) pays more for power produced by wind or solar than they charge for their "regular" power. So some people sell their solar generated electricity during the day for 20 cents a kw-hr, and buy power at night at 10 cents.

[JanGeo]

Actually it is a good idea to generate power locally because your local neighbors end up getting it and saving the utility companies the transmission losses if they were supplying it. BUT NOOOOOO! They want to keep the cake and eat it too!

[onegammyleg]

Man, those chicks look sooo tasty.

I love hot chicks ! :D

[JanGeo]

I think they are wearing feathers . . . trying not to be too picky here

[Brock]

JanGeo, yes some of the newer Luxeon (really any higher output LED lights) light do use switching supplies and can regulate the output. Darell makes some really nice ones ;)

I have a nice small 1.5w AAA light that runs three levels, like 10mA, 250mA and 750mA to the LED. Run times are like 8 hours, 1 hour and 15-20 minutes on a single 900mA AAA cell.

By the way if you’re interested in flashlight of any type, both Darell and I are admins over on http://candlepowerforums.com/

[The Toecutter]

From what I've heard from a few professors at my university, in Missouri, having your own grid tied alternative energy system is heavily discouraged. If something even as simple as a lightning strike shorts out a component of the electric grid, the power companies wil sue you for damages if you have an alternative energy system that is grid tied, regardless of whether or not it had anything to do with any damage to the grid.

Further, Missouri has no financial incentives for them from what I've been able to gather.

Do not consider this hard fact, as this is what I've heard. I have yet to find the specific laws pertaining to the issue.

I think they are wearing feathers . . . trying not to be too picky here

If anything, they add to the allure.

[WisJim]

Toecutter,
Missouri must be behind the times. In many states, insurance is required but the maximimum required is very reasonable, and the design of modern grid tied invertors makes it impossible for them to produce power if the grid isn't active. There are some specific UL standards that relate to this, and it isn't a problem. Your professors need to stick to what they know something about, it sounds like.

[darelldd]

Welcome aboard Darell! I'm sure there is a lot of information you could share with us on EV politics that isn't on your site.
Sorry for the late response. I thought I'd be notified of responses... which worked for a short while.... Yes, I have far too much info regarding the politics. Would take me years to relate it all!

Have you seen the study by Cuenca and Gaines in like 2000, that found if NiMH EVs were mass produced, cost parity with like gas cars would be at under $1.30/gallon, factoring in periodic battery replacement?
Not that one specifically, but many others have reached the same conclusion.

How many miles are on your RAV4 EV's pack and is it still delivering full rated capacity?
I have about 40k miles with no change in capacity (or range). I have friends with 100k+ miles and no change in capacity. The real high-mileage units have over 160k now, and are still doing well.

What is your opinion on Chevron and the NiMH battery and do you have any good data for me to add to my collection on this issue?
Here's the most complete description of the reality behind the situation that I have.
http://evnut.com/battery_patents.htm Surprisingly, I'm not a big conspiracy theorist. I'm bigger on fact. :)

Do you have any plans to give your RAV4 EV some aeromods? A full bellypan, rear wheel skirts, grill block, and other aerodynamic modifications, assuming the car doesn't have any of them, could significantly increase your range. How about LRR tires? Synthetic lube for your single speed gear ratio? 0/0/0 alignment?
I've had plans for airo mods for quite some time. And that's pretty much where they've stayed - plans. Hell, I want to put a big cone on the back. I looked into rear wheel skirts, and it would run me about $2k for custom units. I don't want to hack the thing together. The car is surprisingly smooth already, if a bad shape in general. They come with LRR tires and synthetic lube for the gear. 0.0.0 alignment is within specs and is very close to what I have.

Thanks for your comments/questions!

[darelldd]

Toecutter,
Missouri must be behind the times. In many states, insurance is required but the maximimum required is very reasonable, and the design of modern grid tied invertors makes it impossible for them to produce power if the grid isn't active. There are some specific UL standards that relate to this, and it isn't a problem. Your professors need to stick to what they know something about, it sounds like.
What WisJim said... YOu can't now purchase a grid-tied inverter that does not have a built-in disconnect when the grid goes down. At least you can't buy them in CA!

[darelldd]

I also have to wonder why those chargers are so heavy??
The chargers are so heavy - because they can be. The on-board charger that the car was designed with added a whole eight pounds to the vehicle. Insignificant. When they yanked it out and made it stand-alone, it became 80 pounds and $3500. Go figure.

The silly part is that these cars have chargers in them still! During regeneration, I can shove 200A into the battery pack if slowing from 80mph quickly. And originally the "onboard charger" just tapped into that already existing circuit, which is why not much had to be added!

Basically, the cars were hobbled by removing the onboard charger. Now, instead of just plugging into an outlet anywhere, you HAD to have the proprietary charger. No, they really didn't want these cars to succeed. And if they did, they wanted a big piece of the charger infrastructure pie.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Here's the most complete description of the reality behind the situation that I have. http://evnut.com/battery_patents.htm Surprisingly, I'm not a big conspiracy theorist. I'm bigger on fact. :)

The thing is, since most don't know about the way business' tend to run, they see competitive practices and assume it's some sort of conspiracy. In the case of ECD and Ovonic, I'm guessing prior agreements prohibit them from licensing large format NiMH battery tech in traction applications.

In many instances they have separated traction battery patent rights from nontraction licenses. I can only speculate here, but I believe that this is related to prior exclusive licensee agreements that ECD has already negotiated with existing partners.

Although, as I said, the specific terms are confidential, this stipulation in Panasonic's license restricting it to producing only "certain types" of NiMH batteries for "certain transportation applications" is widely interpreted and understood to mean that Panasonic can only produce HEV batteries (<10Ah) but not BEV batteries (>80Ah) for vehicles sold in North America until 2015.

This was probably done to preserve their fair share of an EV/hybrid market if it ever popped up for ECD, and automotive/oil co's would be interested in supporting them because it would push foreign rivals out of the domestic market and minimize the threat of foreign EVs until the patent expired. Which is good business. There's nothing illegal about acquiring a patent and shelving it, and it's especially prudent when it represents a threat to profit margins.

When GM bought up and scrapped select electric trolley companies, the only illegal thing they did was purchase the buses they replaced the trolleys with from themselves. If a company has the financial resources to dominate the market, they can, have, and probably will, act to protect their profitability. It's not a conspiracy, it's good business. ;)

[darelldd]

If a company has the financial resources to dominate the market, they can, have, and probably will, act to protect their profitability. It's not a conspiracy, it's good business. ;)
Indeed you are correct. The sad part is how often "what is good for business" is what sucks for the people. You know... the same people who brought corporations to life for the betterment of humanity. Sigh.