Rad fan removal?

[pmistel]

I've been searching, but I have found very little on this subject

I am near Toronto, winter is coming, how about just taking off my clutch driven fan?? I read about one guy who has taken his off and not replaced it with a electric fan. I think I will try to just remove the fan and see if it overheats, then look into an electric fan in the spring, if I need it.

Peter

[MetroMPG]

Yes, taking off a belt-driven fan will help FE, but of course you'll have to watch the temp gauge like a hawk.

Your heater could serve as an emergency backup (hot heat, high fan setting)

But you should also be able to get a fan/shroud for cheap from a wrecker. You could then either wire it to a manual switch (still means you have to watch the temp gauge like a hawk though). Or wire it to a temp sensor to trigger automatically.

[Spule 4]

What car do you have? Most have electric fans these days, excluding RWD.

(duhh, I see mighty max now...yes, get an electric fan)

Electric fan would be the way to go (this is more often done for performance, but FE would benefit also), but would have to find a way of adding a temp sensor/switch to operate it.

[MetroMPG]

PS, I have a couple of spare fans/motors/shrouds. If you're interested in making a small donation to Project Forkenswift, PM me and we can haggle over one! :) (Though I still think you can get something cheap from a wrecker).

[pmistel]

Well, for those who might not know what it is, I have a Mitsubishi Mighty Max, also know as a Dodge D50, which is a small pickup like a Ford Ranger, 5spd diesel 4X4. I am not sure if the fan is on a belt or a clutch, but it seems to run all the time. Does that mean a belt? Do clutch driven fans run all the time or do they have a temp sensor?

[Red]

Well, for those who might not know what it is, I have a Mitsubishi Mighty Max, also know as a Dodge D50, which is a small pickup like a Ford Ranger, 5spd diesel 4X4. I am not sure if the fan is on a belt or a clutch, but it seems to run all the time. Does that mean a belt? Do clutch driven fans run all the time or do they have a temp sensor?


Clutch based fans spin all the time, but only "run" when the clutch locks up, dependent on heat. On my Jeep the engine sounds like a turbine when the fan clutch locks. The clutch (usually a large silver disk) is the closest thing to a sensor that element of your cooling system has.

If you got e-fan, depending on how the fan mounts to the accessory drive, you may have to replace your water pump, if your fan mounts to the water pump pulley. The fan has placed a load on the water pump bearings causing certain kinds of wear, once you remove the fan, this wear can cause the pump shaft to wobble, trashing your water pump.

For a fan controller, you might want to try out this place http://www.dccontrol.com/

I have a similar setup waiting to go into the Jeep (DC Controller and a fan out of a Ford Taurus), most Jeepers report a 2 MPG increase and better cooling reliability.

[Spule 4]

Well, for those who might not know what it is, I have a Mitsubishi Mighty Max, also know as a Dodge D50, which is a small pickup like a Ford Ranger, 5spd diesel 4X4. I am not sure if the fan is on a belt or a clutch, but it seems to run all the time. Does that mean a belt? Do clutch driven fans run all the time or do they have a temp sensor?

Waterpump actually, or at least on my 2WD one I sold six odd years ago.

They were clutch driven if memory serves.

[beatr911]

Go ahead and remove the belt driven fan. You'll probably be able to keep the pulley on to drive the water pump by re-using the nuts with some washers to take the place of the thickness of the fan mount to the water pump.
On the three of my vehicles I've done this on ('88 Mazda P/U, '89 Nissan 240SX and '96 Ford Ranger all over a period of 11 years) I have had no problems in most weather conditions. Only in the summer and in traffic did I have to turn the heater on full blast to help keep the engine cool. I did not install an electric fan in any of the instances, but do live in rural areas where driving in traffic is not all that common. It really is surprising how only a few miles per hour can make a big drop in temperature, 15 mph is plenty of speed to keep the engine cool even without the fan. In all cases removing the fan it's shroud an anything else that is not really used in the engine compartment really makes working on the engine easy - almost like the good old days. I drive old vehicles because I'm cheap and know how to keep them going, making it easy is half the battle.
Go ahead and do it, you can always put it back on in the summer if you get nervous.

[Sludgy]

Go ahead and remove the belt driven fan. You'll probably be able to keep the pulley on to drive the water pump by re-using the nuts with some washers to take the place of the thickness of the fan mount to the water pump.


I'm curious why auto manufacturers often use an electric fan, but not an electric water pump. They could use the same motor to drive both.

It's common practice in V-8 race engines to use an electric water pump in order to eliminate power losses at high rpm. It seems to me that short-trip FE would benefit greatly from an electric water pump, because the water pump wouldn't turn on until the engine reached operating temperature.

[rh77]

A while back (1993), the fan-clutch failed on my Dad's 1988 Olds Cutlass Classic (RWD). The shop replaced it with one that was much more aggressive, and seemed to be engaged 100% of the time. The 180-hp V-8 barely had enough power to start out with, then this really zapped the power and FE. It sounded like a street sweeper after that.

BION, he still has it today, with 80K original miles. It did spring a leak in the radiator recently, tho. My 2nd Cousin drives it regularly now, but she's looking to buy a Fit :thumbup: for better FE and, well, some reliability too ;)

LSS, older vehicles seem to really need the movement of air. The newer the car, the less airflow, it seems.

RH77

[psyshack]

Ive pulled the belt driven fans off several cars in my lifetime and replaced them with electric fans. The first few cars I did this to the water pumps failed shortly there after. Best I could figure was they were on the way out. Or the sudden load change on the bearing in the water pump caused it to fail. On cars that I put electric fans on and changed the water pump at the same time did not fail.

I want to put a electric fan on my worthless Ranger. But wont do it untill I have to open it back up to put its second timing belt on. I didnt change the water pump the first time. I should have done it then. :(

psy

[tjts1]

I replaced the clutch fan on an 89 volvo 240 automatic with very good results. From the factory the clutch fan is mounted directly on the water pump shaft and powered by 2 V belts. The main problem with this setup is the weight and out of balance inertia of the fan tends to murder the water pump bearing in 60k miles or less. With clutch fan removed, the water pump has been known to last as much as 150k miles. After the e-fan installation city fuel consumption went from 19 to 21mpg and highway from 23 to 25mpg tested over many fill ups. Both city and highway mileage are above the advertised EPA numbers. I'm convinced.

[ELF]

I'm curious why auto manufacturers often use an electric fan, but not an electric water pump. They could use the same motor to drive both.

It's common practice in V-8 race engines to use an electric water pump in order to eliminate power losses at high rpm. It seems to me that short-trip FE would benefit greatly from an electric water pump, because the water pump wouldn't turn on until the engine reached operating temperature.

My car has both, I'm not sure exactly how it works but, I assume the mechanical water pump spins slowly, Turns at lower speeds than a normal water pump so there is less drag on the engine, then I think the electric pump kicks in when things start to get hot. Again I have no idea if this is correct but it seems to be the only logical reason they would have both.

[brucepick]

Reducing the mechanical energy needed to run a pump has to be a good idea.

I do think a pump needs to be running always to distribute the heat through the block. Otherwise you'd have localized hot and cold areas, much more than there are in engines with pumps working. But you probably could run the pump(s) at lower speeds much of the time.

Reliability is the other concern I have. Existing water pumps are pretty simple and any failure is still a bad thing. Added complexity for clutch drives or electrical or whatever would have to be done without reducing the reliability.

[BluEyes]

I have been told that most electric water pumps do not generate enough flow for street use. I have primarily seen electric water pumps advertised for drag racing where you can shut the pump off for a 1/4 mile run then let it run while the engine is off in the pits to cool back down. Not many electric pumps listed in dirt-track catalogs where the cars must run for long periods of time. Electric pumps also have a rated hour life that is far less than the life of your average mechanical pump which probably makes automakers weary of putting them in.

I doubt there will be much gain from running an electric water pump though. The pump is something that needs to be running all the time to keep temperatures even. It takes power to run the pump and either way that power is coming from the engine.

[BeeUU]

Due to an electrical issue the electric fans on my Peugeot were running at full speed all the time, creating alot of drag on the alternator. Fortunately, the fan controller is in the passenger compartment, I know leave the fan unplugged untill I need to use them. It has created problems when my wife has driven the car, she does not remember to check the temp gauge as often as I have learned. There has been a couple of steaming events!!!

I think that the new BMW 3 series has an electric water pump. I will try to find the reference.

[BeeUU]

I forgot to add that for 98% of the time the fans are not required. Only during the summer in stop and go traffic are they really required.

I will confirm what beatr911 stated, after sitting at a traffic light and once you start moving that coolant temps fall pretty fast, even at slow speeds.

Although now that I have the grill taped, temps rise more quickly and the temp takes longer to fall!!!

[BeeUU]

Attached is a link that states the BMW is using electric coolant pumps on thier engines NOW!!

Also on the one series they have active flaps to close off the grill!!! I have heard this is true on some Mercedes cars as well.

Coolant pump ref:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/bmw_to_offer_in.html

1 series ref:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/bmw_introduces_.html#more

[MetroMPG]

I doubt there will be much gain from running an electric water pump though. The pump is something that needs to be running all the time to keep temperatures even. It takes power to run the pump and either way that power is coming from the engine.

But you're assuming that the pump would run the same amount and at the same speed that a belt-driven pump runs.

One advantage is that you don't need to run the pump when the engine is cold. Until the engine warms up, it doesn't run (or runs slowly), which speeds up warm up times.

At cruising speeds, the extra airflow through the radiator means you can slow the pump down.

The benefits come from intelligent control. Just like the with a "smart" alternator.

[MetroMPG]

I look at it like grille blocks: cooling systems are designed for worst case performance.

I suspect there's lots of wiggle room with the pump for people who don't idle their cars in Death Valley with the air conditioning on.

(Can you tell "electric pump conversion" is on my list of mods? ;) It will be a particularly good FE benefit when running the electrical system without the alternator.)

[JanGeo]

You definately want to be circulating the water all the time as the hot spots are near the exhost valves and on big V engines the intake manifolds are usually heated with water as well. Have the fan off should not be a problem as the heater will probably dissapate enough of the heat on a cold day - make sure you turn it to outside "cold" air for max cooling. Bigger engines generate a lot more heat so cooling may become an issue if it is not really cold outside. Only really good way to tell is to try it where you can stop if it overheats or at least coast at idle to allow it to cool down - less throttle makes a lot less heat. When I ran my full grill block I didn't have a problem until I got going over 40mph then the bigger gas consumption kicks in and the heat goes up.

[MetroMPG]

Couple of OEM e-pump efficiency examples, FYI:

Land Rover Concept Showcases Hybrid System and Other Technologies for 30% Reduction in Fuel Consumption
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/02/land_rover_conc.html

The system also incorporates an electric water pump, which, unlike the conventional belt-driven water pump, is driven only on demand, and at variable speeds, avoiding inefficient and unnecessary overspeed running. Mechanical energy savings, optimum temperature control and fast warm-up from start offer the potential for additional CO2 emissions benefits.

---

And a BMW doing the same thing...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/bmw_introduces_.html

BMW is now using new electrical coolant pumps in its straight-six engines. The electrical pumps operating exactly—and only—when required, meaning that they develop their maximum output and performance only at high and very high speeds. They remain passive immediately after the engine has been started, ensuring in this way that the engine is warmed up more quickly. This alone helps to reduce fuel consumption in the EU homologation test by approximately 2%.

[zpiloto]

The e-pump would be great but the only problem I see is cost. Most of the after market ones I've seen have a life cycle of 2000-2500 hours at a cost of $250-600, and thats with a self install, so the 12,000 a year driver would be replacing them every 5 years.

[MetroMPG]

DIY, man!

Scrounge a 12v rad fan motor, make a clamp, and either add a pulley or do direct drive (if the motor speed is compatible with the needed pump speed).

That's what I'm thinking anyway.

[Red]

DIY, man!

Scrounge a 12v rad fan motor, make a clamp, and either add a pulley or do direct drive (if the motor speed is compatible with the needed pump speed).

That's what I'm thinking anyway.

Building off the idea of using a rad fan motor you could use this to make it temp dependant

http://www.dccontrol.com/

Using a sensor you jam into the radiator it varies the voltage sent to fan so you are not either on full low or full high but at the right speed for a given temp. I have one waiting to be installed on the Jeep with a fan out of a Taurus, same principle should work for the water pump.