Saturn electric car

[diamondlarry]

I found this article at cleanmpg.com. Very interesting since I have a dead Saturn that would make an almost ideal donor car.
http://www.statesmanjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061223/NEWS/612230319/1001

[bobc455]

The article doesn't say what type of batteries they use. Did they just go to AutoZone and buy a few dozen batteries?

Also, the article alludes to a "kit" - any info on this?

-Bob C.

[diamondlarry]

I sent an email to the author of the article asking for details on the plans the guy used. I also found a site that does conversions. Until I hear from the author of the article, I can't say for sure if it is where the guy got his plans. Here is a link to the site.
http://www.electroauto.com/index.html

[MetroMPG]

Yeah, I saw that article too. Neat.

The only thing that bugs me about stories like that is how batteries are not factored into the operating cost calculations.

Batteries are consumables - they wear out, so should be factored in as part of the operating costs. The article doesn't even mention this.

Of course it wouldn't be nearly as exciting if they reported the car wasn't saving the owner any money, unless gasoline was more than $2.50/gal or something (just guessing - I didn't do the math).

Anyhoo.

Here's a bunch more Saturn EV's. Some have the specs laid out in detail: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/SATU

[diamondlarry]

Thanks for the link Metro, I'll check that out. Here is an article on what appears to a VW rabbit that was shown on the electroauto.com page.
http://www.mrsharkey.com/rabbit.htm
More pictures:
http://www.mrsharkey.com/mods.htm

[Matt Timion]

After watching "Who Killed the Electric Car" this week I am also more motivated to take the plunge and start an EV conversion...

after I finish with the Honda n600, of course :)

[cfg83]

Hello -

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't someone who converted 1st gen Saturns to electric join this site in the last year? I know I read about a guy who said he used to have a business doing this, but gave up and is just doing traditional gas saving now.

I can't find his thread. Can you?

In the meantime, here is something from the saturn fans website :

Electric Conversion
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7204

CarloSW2

[The Toecutter]

Batteries are consumables - they wear out, so should be factored in as part of the operating costs. The article doesn't even mention this.

Of course it wouldn't be nearly as exciting if they reported the car wasn't saving the owner any money, unless gasoline was more than $2.50/gal or something (just guessing - I didn't do the math).

Battery costs will generally be between $.04-.08/mile if you are using flooded lead acid batteries. It is well within the realm of possibility for cost parity between a flooded lead acid conversion and its gasoline counterpart to be at under $1.50/gallon gas. In fact, many such conversions exist.

If you don't care properly for the batteries, ovbiously cost per mile shoots up very high. If your pack is so small that you are deep discharging it regularly for your commute, cost per mile will be high as well.


With AGMs, price generaly shoots way up, mostly because those who use AGMs aren't using regs or a proper charging algorithm. Properly cared for, AGMs will actually last longer than floodies. John Wayland's set in "Blue Meanie" has lasted nearly a decade, albeit they are delivering about half the range they did originally.

[MetroMPG]

Battery costs will generally be between $.04-.08/mile if you are using flooded lead acid batteries.
Thanks for that.

38 mpg (SL1 manual, the car they converted) @ $2.50/gal for gasoline = $.066 / mile fuel cost.

So they took a car rated at 38 mpg (combined) spent over $10,000 to convert it to electric, and tout the negligible "savings" as their motivation & reward? I think they're being silly.

[The Toecutter]

To be fair, the gasoline version is about $.05/mile in maintenance. An electric car has about $.005-.01/mile in maintenance for brakes and tires and stuff.

Lets say the electric Saturn's battery costs $.06/mile, and needs $.01/mile maintenance. At $.10/kWh for electricity, 75% charging efficiency, and .25 kWh/mile from the battery pack, that's $.033/mile for 'fuel'.

So the electric will cost $.103/mile to run, while the gas Saturn will cost $.116/mile to run at $2.50/gallon gas and 38 mpg.

Cost parity between the two would be at $2.01/gallon gas.

If the Saturn would have been available as an EV in the first place, it would have made perfect economic sense. The article also doesn't tell us if the builder sold the engine and other related components to recoup some of the costs.

Kits are also a ripoff. Judging by the components used, if this guy would have made his own battery boxes and motor mounts and adaptor, it probably could have been done for around $5,000-7,000.

If a larger battery pack would be used to keep percentage discharge down for the commute, battery costs would drop. If they drop to say, $.04/mile, cost parity between the gasoline and electric version would be $1.25/gallon.

EVs are economical, but only if you do them right. But due to the fact that you're already buying a car with gasoline components installed and having to pay for them, the payback period gets very long. For your most economically minded conversions(in terms of operating cost), the payback period will be about 3 years, depending on how much you drive each year! For this Saturn, much, much longer.



My hunch is that your forkenswift, due to its small pack and inefficient type of motor, probably won't save you much(if any) money, even if the conversion was done for very cheap. I'd be very impressed if your battery pack lasted more than 10,000 miles. A typical flooded pack in a conversion will last around 20,000 miles.

[MetroMPG]

To be fair, the gasoline version is about $.05/mile in maintenance.
...vs...

if this guy would have made his own battery boxes and motor mounts and adaptor, it probably could have been done for around $5,000-7,000.
Similarly, if he does his own ICE component repairs/maintenance, it's not going to cost him $.05/mile for the gas version.

Obviously I don't have anything against electric cars. I do have a problem with glossing over true operating costs and misleading the uninformed, which that article definitely did.

EVs are economical, but only if you do them right.
That's what I'd like the articles to say :)

My hunch is that your forkenswift, due to its small pack and inefficient type of motor, probably won't save you much(if any) money, even if the conversion was done for very cheap.

Agreed. That said, beating ICE operating costs was never a main motivating factor for starting the project. (Of course, I'll track every penny just to see what happens - and will likely be all gloaty if it turns out to be slightly cheaper to run than gas :D )

[MetroMPG]

Similarly, if he does his own ICE component repairs/maintenance, it's not going to cost him $.05/mile for the gas version.
FYI, I tallied up my ICE-related maintenance costs (almost all DIY) for my old Accord (had the records handy because I used it for work, some of which I could write off). Not included: things like tires/brakes/suspension/body expenses.
From 1999-2004: $US 1660.86 over 127,798 km / 79410 miles = $US 0.021 / mileThis is on a car which was 15 years old in 2004 with around 340,000 km on it. I didn't scrimp on repairs or maintenance either. If it needed something, it got done.

[lovemysan]

I doubt the original powertrain was worth much. With a 150k on the engine and trans I'd be leary of purchasing them. Of course I could be wrong.

[diamondlarry]

I doubt the original powertrain was worth much. With a 150k on the engine and trans I'd be leary of purchasing them. Of course I could be wrong.

When the car known as "My Temporary Ride" was purchased in early July, it had over 150,000 miles on the clock. It is now approaching the 165K mark and uses NO oil. In fact, the current oil has nearly 5K miles on it and it is still at the same level as when I changed it. There are several owners on saturnfans.com who have some very high mileage numbers. One in particular has over 430K. Another owner knows of a Saturn that is serviced at a dealer near his hometime in northern Ohio that has over 650K on the odometer. The thing about Saturn's is that you have to pay close attention to the maintainence. As one prolific poster on saturnfans likes to say, "Old Saturn's never die, people KILL them, so check your damn oil!."

[Peakster]

Here's another electric converstion (http://greenplanet3.org/ev/) in some pretty good detail.

[The Toecutter]

FYI, I tallied up my ICE-related maintenance costs (almost all DIY) for my old Accord (had the records handy because I used it for work, some of which I could write off). Not included: things like tires/brakes/suspension/body expenses.

* From 1999-2004: $US 1660.86 over 127,798 km / 79410 miles = $US 0.021 / mile

This is on a car which was 15 years old in 2004 with around 340,000 km on it. I didn't scrimp on repairs or maintenance either. If it needed something, it got done.

Sounds about right. Brakes/tires and stuff like that is around $.005-.01/mile for most any car.

Hondas and Toyotas are some of the cheapest cars to run. I remember looking at some figures from AAA and the Hondas/Toyotas tended to cost about $.02-.04/mile in maintenance, while the GM/Ford/Dodge cars and trucks tended to be in the area of $.05-.08/mile. These are from memory and not scientific mind you, but your numbers seem to fit the norm for your type of car.

[Peakster]

Hondas and Toyotas are some of the cheapest cars to run. I remember looking at some figures from AAA and the Hondas/Toyotas tended to cost about $.02-.04/mile in maintenance, while the GM/Ford/Dodge cars and trucks tended to be in the area of $.05-.08/mile.

Holy smokes. That's a far cry from my 1985 Pontiac Fiero. 2.6 years and 34,000 miles later:

Purchase price: $2,200
New engine and installation: $2,350 (isolated incident 2 years ago for driving like a dork)
New battery: $80
New tires: $400
4 used aluminum rims: $160
2 rebuilt starters: $400
New brakes and rotors: $200
Flat tire repair: $14
Brake master cylinder repair: $100
Towing costs: $360 (including one tow over 500km in distance)
Small repairs: $300 (like hose leaks, etcetera)
Oil changes for 2.6 years: $385
Car washes for 2.6 years: $160 (I only wash this car maybe one a month for $5 a pop)
Insurance for 2.6 years: $1,820 ($700 a year to insure!)
Gasoline for 2.6 years: $4,600 (about $25 for every 300 kilometers driven)

Turned out to be $0.43 per mile ($5,665 per year).

[MetroMPG]

Holy smokes. That's a far cry from my 1985 Pontiac Fiero.

Yup, but I was just talking ICE-related costs (to do the comparo to EV battery costs).

On avg, I was spending a total of around $750/yr CDN for all the Accord's maint/repairs.