What is the best bicycle motor?

[Ryland]

I've been thinking about getting a bicycle hub motor for a while now for a hybrid/tribrid idea that I would like to build, and it turns out that my dad is also looking for some sort of bicycle motor for a warm weather commuter vehicle, so I was wondering if anyone has any exprince with bicycle motors that they really liked.
I rather like the hub motor design like golden motor (http://goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/DIY-ebike-kits.htm) sells, this past summer I talked to a guy who really liked his, but he didn't have the battery pack along or something, so I couldn't take it for a ride.
About 11 years back I bought a ZAP electric bicycle kit, it worked pretty good for what was avalible, of course it had a heavy battery, and low power, inefficent motors that used a friction roller on the rear wheel, it was extreamly simple, but an all around bad design.
Idealy I would like a rear hub motor, altho having a front wheel would be ok, 30mph would be nice as that is what is allowed in wisconsin, some states it's only 20mph, and I have my own ideas for a battery pack, a motor controler with regeneritive braking would be great.
I just spent a bit of time looking at the electricrider web page (http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/index.htm) and rather like what they have, and altho there prices are a bit higher then I was hoping for, it does sound like they are being more real about how there product will perform, and that it might be of a higher quality then some of the others.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Not really OT, but I was thinking about the same project, and given the cost, I thought it'd be better to go with a electric scooter motor/controller mounted on a rack with a chain-driven flip-flop hub, the motor being on the fixed side. That way the cost could be kept down, parts would be easily replaced (If the hub motor goes, where can a new one be bought?), the gearing/battery type/motor power would be the rider's choice, and efficiency would still be pretty high (No friction drive).

[Bruce]

No idea what's best, but you might check out SRAM...I know they had an in-hub motor a few years ago.

[MetroMPG]

Regen is neat, but as you already know (because you're a hypermiler), an efficient driver rarely if ever uses regen.

Also it adds to the complexity and cost of the system.

I've done a little research on this topic, and I'd choose the simplest controller/motor option, ie pedal start (simplifies the controller even further, and extends range).

[DaX]

For my senior design project, we looked at a few hub motors - the best our group found as far as robustness was one made by Wavecrest (http://www.tidalforce.com/), but they were very pricy.

We ended up designing our bike with an electric scooter motor and a secondary chain drive to the pedals. Our bike did use regenerative braking, but we were still working the bugs out of the system by the time the final presentation rolled around.

I agree with Darin - K.I.S.S. - and find a motor with an integrated controller already...our research showed it would be difficult if we mixed up or built our own controller.

Pedal starts are wonderful for battery life, and although we really wanted that power start, we never got a great result.

[Ryland]

if I was building my own throtle controle for the motorcontroler, I would be tempted to make basicly a spring loaded leaver with a idler that pushes the tops half of the drive chain down (the part of the chain that is under tention when you pedal) so that to a point, the harder you pedal, the faster you go, stop pedaling, and the motor stops running, pedal lightly, and the motor turns slow.

are there any 1/2 to 1hp electric motors that have controlers avalible that would work well for an electric bicycle? I would like to try to keep the whole system under $600 if possible, not including the bicycle, as I already have a number of bicycles I can use for this project.

[Ryland]

For my senior design project, we looked at a few hub motors - the best our group found as far as robustness was one made by Wavecrest (http://www.tidalforce.com/), but they were very pricy.



do you remember what the price was? cheapest motor I've found is around $80 (from golden motor) but I'm disapointed with their low top speed (no load motor rpm give something like 22mph, put a load on there and it will drop) and unsure about there quality, and I've looked at motors that go as high in price as $1,700 for a kit to retrofit a bicycle (very nice, has enough power to alow you to tow a trailer as well) so I know that the price on them will varry a great deal, in my ideal world, if I can find an electric motor, and controler that work well together for around $300-500 then I would be happy.

[DaX]

I can't remember the price. Go to the website and call up one of their dealers. When I get home tonight I'll look back through my report and see if I can find some notes on it - we did do a competitor's cost comparison somewhere.

[JanGeo]

Don't expect 30mph speeds from a hub motor as they tend to be in the 400 watt range and it will melt trying to pump that much power into something with that low an efficiency. I spent (wasted) years telling guys on zappy and other chat groups that most of the little motors are in the 60-80 % efficiency and 80% only at low speeds and you end up with heaters more than motors. You have to get a good brushless design with about 1000 watts or more continuous and either drive the rear wheel directly with a over powered motor or get some gearing working with a smaller motor i.e. through the chain drive or a 5 speed hub with separate chain drive input for the motor.

[Ryland]

my current favorit motor (http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/phoenix.htm) is a 3 phase brushless hub motor with over 1000 watts of peek output.
I've thought about useing a "normal" motor, part of the truble is finding a controler that will match them, and then they reduce your bicycles carring capacity if you have both a motor, and battery pack on the rack, and part of my idea is to have two battery packs, a short trip pack, and a long trip pack to save weight and space, or idealy get a rear hub motor, that can take a disk brake on the lefthand side, and mount another sprocket to it, have a 25-35cc over head cam honda mini 4 stroke engine that either turns a generator to run the hub motor, then can shift to a direct drive to the hub once you are up to speed, but as it is right now, I just want a bicycle motor and controler.

[JanGeo]

Many have connected the batteries through switches directly to brushed motors - hub motors and relied on the resistance of the windings to limit the power and run at certain speeds instead of using a variable speed control. You would start off with the batteries in parallel and pedal a lot to get going then kick in different voltages. Many of the hub motors are brushed so the controller can be simple. Brushless controller tend to be more difficult to find because of the under engineering that most have - they don't allow for the high starting currents and the motor inductance variations at different speeds. Be careful when mounting front wheel motors as the forks have been known to fail suddenly from the motor loads on the forks.

Kits for hub motors are available at Battery Space.

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=849

[usedgeo]

I bought the 600 watt brushed hub motor from wilderness energy. It came with 12 amp hour batteries. They gave about 9 miles range on the first charge at about 18 mph. I have the 600 watt 24 inch wheel on the front of a trailmate ez roll regal trike that I streched 10 inches. It was easy to stretch the frame as it is built of square tube. This made it much more comfortable to ride and pedal. It has a three speed hub. The motor quickly outruns the stock gearing. I guess I should post a pic in the garage. I am running 36 volts. The site claims the motor could handle 72 volts if you provide an adequate controller. I can't say about that. The motor is fine when on the ground but if you accelerate the motor with the wheel off the ground you can easily feel that the torque constant is not constant. You can buy the wheel by itself for about $159. It is made in China. I might do it again but the quality is about what you might expect. Not supurb but adequate. All the reaction is taken by the hub shaft. If the axle is not tight it will turn and cut the wires off. Ask me how I know.

I have installed 18 Ah batteries but not ridden it since. It is too cold. I actually put this together for my oldest brother who can no longer drive so I have not actually ridden it much at all.

They offer a brushless 600 watt motor that is supposed to be more efficient. I picked the wilderness energy motor after quite a bit of looking. Price was a major factor for me.

http://www.trailmate.com/adultTrikes.cfm

http://www.wildernessenergy.com/

People are quite intrigued by this set up. I should add that 24 inch street tires are a bit of a chore to find.

Ernie

[Ryland]

ok, I think I'm set on gettin the Phoenix Cruiser hub motor, and spend the exra $50 to get it as a rear hub with a gear cluster, and controler, but I really want to ditch the lead acid gel battery pack because it's heavy (35-40 pounds) so I need a 36 volt battery pack, the stock one that comes with is around 12amphour, what are sugestions on a good battery under $200? I like the DeWalt Lithium

[onegammyleg]

Leg's

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Legs.jpg/300px-Legs.jpg

[Ryland]

I have a number of freinds who don't own cars, and at -20F + windchill still ride their bicycles every day, and even on perfect days in the summer they don't like to come to my house because of the hills you have to come up to get here.
I really like the idea of pure human power, but between hills, and haveing a job that is slightly phisicly demanding (fabricating and installing granite countertops... stone is heavy) being able to get home would be nice.

[Ryland]

http://nbtsc.org/%7Eryland/photos/ElectricBicycle1.jpg

this is what my compleated electric bicycle looks like, the battery pack dubbles as a rack, the motor is a 3 phase gearless brushless motor that is also the rear wheel hub, and the controler box is bolted to the front water bottle braze on, with the current battery pack the range is about 10 miles with alot of hills, top speed is around 20mph, and it's silent, street leagle, and alot of fun.
I'm looking in to other batterys to extend the range to 20-30 miles, and give it the proper top speed of 25mph, I currently have 30 "D" cell NiMh flashlight batterys in the copper tubes, and they just don't have enough guts.

[SVOboy]

Pretty cool, how much did the whole setup cost you?

[trebuchet03]

Nice Work :)

Out of curiosity, what are you using to recharge?

[Ryland]

to charge them I use:
http://nbtsc.org/%7Eryland/photos/PVpanals.jpg
with a 2.5 amp charger to interact with the batterys.
the bicycle was free from the dump,
$60 the bike shop to get a used front wheel, two tires, two tubes.
$730 or so with shipping for the rear wheel motor laced to the rim, 36V motor controler, thumb throttle switch, battery charger, and bag of correct wires and plugs to hook things up, I could have spent less on the throttle switch but I got one with LED battery leavle lights, and I could have spent $50 less on the wheel, but I wanted one with the rear gear cluster, and I got the "Cruser" wheel, so it's the middle speed range of the lower voltage.
So far I've spent $160 on 30 "D" cell batterys, and $36 on copper pipe, and maybe another $15 on misc fittings, wire, and screws, altho I'm not impressed with this battery pack, so I'm going to keep looking at battery options, the D cell batterys can't discharge as fast as the motor asks them, so the voltage tends to drop, and my top speed goes down, the big upside of them is that they are light (15 pounds for a copper and steel rack with 30 batterys inside), and they make the bike look cleaner, but I have a big hill to clime to get home so I want a little more power.
www.electricrider.com (http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/index.htm) is the compeny that I bought the parts from (they sell compleat bikes too (http://www.electricrider.com/bikes.htm)) they sell parts so you can build a kit to meet your exact needs or compleat kits that you just bolt on to a bike you have, with batterys starting at $400 (http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/sparrow.htm) and going up to $1,049 for a full kit with batterys that can top out at around 37mph (http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/phoenix.htm) the parts I chose gave me more torque, lower top speed, and a better range

[trebuchet03]

to charge them I use:
http://nbtsc.org/%7Eryland/photos/PVpanals.jpg
with a 2.5 amp charger to interact with the batteries.


Totally wasn't expecting that :P Then again, I'm new here :D

It's a little to expensive for my current lifestyle (college :P), but one day, I'd love to do what you're doing.... I mean, your transportation is pretty much off grid :thumbup: :thumbup:

[Bill in Houston]

Wouldn't a small PbA battery deliver more power with less loss due to internal resistance? I don't know much about this stuff, so I'm really just asking for my own curiosity...

[Ryland]

Wouldn't a small PbA battery deliver more power with less loss due to internal resistance? I don't know much about this stuff, so I'm really just asking for my own curiosity...

what is a PbA battery?
the Nickel-metal Hydride batterys seem pretty good, reasonably affordable, 90% efficiency, 90% recyclability, good energy to weight ratio, ok cycle life, sure lithium-ion are lighter and slightly more compact, but there cost is a tiping point.
but the more I think about it I'm open to other ideas for a battery pack, the motor controler has a big plug coming off of it going to the battery pack, so if I can find more plugs like that with pig tails, then I can have more then one battery pack, at some point maybe make a trailer with a big battery pack in it, and enough room to haul stuff.

[SVOboy]

PbA is plumbus acid (damn latin spelling), or lead acid.

[Ryland]

The quanity of batteries that I need is so small in comparison to a larger EV so I'm willing to look at slightly more exspensive battery choices, I could even go as far as to get lithium, spend about $450 for 4 DeWalt 36 volt packs off Ebay, and I might even do that, I just want to do a test rides on a bike that has them first.
Lead acid just seems outdated, inefficient, heavy, and they have a short life, useing a battery that doesn't like to be discharged lower then 20%, and is made with lead on a vehicle that you want to be able to pedal as well just seems silly.

[SVOboy]

What do you think it would take to electrify something like the met or perhaps a ruckus? The dry weight on a met including the engine is 137, about 170 for a ruck.

[Ryland]

What do you think it would take to electrify something like the met or perhaps a ruckus? The dry weight on a met including the engine is 137, about 170 for a ruck.

those normaly have the drive train intergrated in to the rear swing arm, and have an extreamly light step thru frame.
if you wanted more speed, I would say go with a motorcycle that has a bad engine, something 2 stroke as those are short lived and normaly pretty light for going fast, but sturdy, again, for going fast.
the other option is something simaler to what I'm doing, and use a bicycle, because at least in this state, a bicycle has to only apply to bicycle laws, as long as you can remove the motor, or engine, and that you doing go over 35mph, so no licensing, no insurance, park it in bike racks, and parts are commen.