Thoughs on VolksWagen TDI's?

[andrmtro]

Hey everyone,

I did a search for VW TDI's but didn't find much, so I thought I'd start a topic to ask. What are your thoughts on them? I'm 19 and I'd like to get something that's fuel efficient, somewhat newer (last ten years), and safe. Obviously they're diesel, but usually diesel isn't too overwhelmingly higher than gas (actually right now it's cheaper by 20 cents where I live.) I also think I'd feel safer in a VW as opposed to a tiny Metro or Civic. I always ask people in parking lots who drive TDI's if they like them or not, so far I haven't talked to anyone who doesn't absolutely love it.

So, any thoughts on TDI's? A used one is going to be right around $8,500 average I figure.

[Bill in Houston]

I'd rather have an $8500 Civic than an $8500 TDI. The TDI would end up costing more for maintenance, I believe. And if you do your own maintenance, the Civic would be much easier to work on. TDIs are good if you want fellow owners to wave and if you want to buy cute t-shirts.

[Bill in Houston]

Sorry if I sounded abrupt. I was just kind of talking off the top of my head. a TDI could be a fine car. It just wouldn't be my personal first choice. Just make sure to get a 5-speed.

[Hockey4mnhs]

i would love to have a tdi. i would try to make some bio diesel so suplement the prive of diesel around here.

[SVOboy]

I'd go for a civic, the TDIs aren't very clean running, have high maintenance costs, and cost too much. But that's just me.

[Brock]

If your looking for info on TDI's check out
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
60K plus members with lots of great TDI info.

I have a TDI wagon and really like it. I have to admit I really looked at it because of the better then average safety rating. I have done all my own work on the car and not spent much so far. I would say it depends on what you need to do with the vehicle. The wagon has a bunch more room then some of the other high mileage cars out there, which was also a plus for me. And now I really like the fact I can burn bio-diesel as well. My last tank came in at 65.84 mpg, but my lifetime is 54.54

Oh if your looking get a model between 99 and 03, the 04 and newer have bigger engines and more power but lower fuel economy.

Oh and with the ultra low sulfur diesel switch over the emissions are much much better now, or if you use bio-diesel they are even better.

[Lug_Nut]

I repair my TDI and it stays repaired. I invariably replace broken crap on her Honda with momentarily un-broken crap that will soon break again. And hers is definitely NOT easier on which to work.
TDI's cost too much? Maybe it's supply and demand at work. Maybe there's some logic to why otherwise sane people are paying more for a TDI. Used first generation TDI (1996~1997 Passat) are still pulling in $8500. What 96~97 Honda has retained such a percent of it's initial value? Her 2000 Honda cost more when new, has fewer miles, and is now less valuable used than mine.
High maintenance cost? A fuel pump that puts out 30,000 psi with a time accuracy to .00004 seconds (one degree of crank rotation at 4k rpm) isn't cheap, so don't use substandard fat as fuel thinking it is 'biodiesel'. It requires a lot of gallons of free fuel to compensate for ruining one injection pump by running crap fuel. Use trusted fuel and these pumps are serviceable for 300,000 miles+. Then have it rebuilt for the next 300k. The rest of the engine is no more expensive than on a lesser car.
Not clean running? When using the emissions standards that include ALL emissions, the TDI are cleaner than the alternatives. Not by much, but measurably cleaner. Now put quality biodiesel instead of quality petrodiesel in the fuel tank and a gasoline engine would have to get 200 mpg to be as clean as a 50 mpg TDI. Even a 15 mpg Hummer (Ahnold's perhaps?) on B100 is a clean and green as a 60 mpg Insight.
I'm not an impartial source of information on the TDI. My last five cars have been diesel, 4 of them TDI. At the top of the post I alluded to "otherwise sane" people willingly paying a premium for a TDI. I'm not one (neither sane, nor willing to pay $8500). I paid under $4000 last autumn for the one I now have.

TDIs are good if you want fellow owners to wave and if you want to buy cute t-shirts.Our t shirts are pretty much crap, too. But the "Girls of TDIClub" calendar has TDI owning cuties pictures with their car on each month.

[trebuchet03]

I'd say go for the TDI ;) From my research (I was looking for one - more on that in a minute), the weakest link is the glow plugs (which isn't a bad repair). And as said -- these things retain their value (so buying is a little higher, but selling will also be high). Diesel in the winter is typically more expensive, but in the summer (when gas prices go up) diesel goes down (at least that's been the local trend).

Now, as I said - I was looking for a TDI... But having a helluva hard time FINDING said TDI. Why? The owners just don't want to sell :p Now, if the car a money pit beast -- value would be very low and the market would be saturated (my last car has a bad reputation for a very crappy atx - and I guarantee you can find one no problem :p).


EDIT:
I forgot to mention... If you end up with the TDI - and plan on doing your own work on it... Get the Bentley manual (don't skimp and get the Chilton's or any other). I have one -- and it's the most comprehensive manual I've ever used (on my 2.0 gasser). I bought my manual from someone that sold his TDI -- here's what he marked (with little flags).... Brake Switch, fuel injection system, inter cooler, brakes, cabin filter. I think he cranked up the boost (just based on certain notes he wrote) - but I'm not quite sure.

[pyramid_head]

I've also been looking to trade in my 06 Toyota Matrix xR for a 99-03 VW Golf TDI 5-speed, but they are difficult to come by here in L.A. :(. It's a wise choice. And yes... the parts might be slightly expensive given that it's a diesel, but it's okay. It's also modern German engineering (i heard not so reliable), but you can make any car reliable. Just do some research before you buy it so you can be knowledgeable about the recalls, etc.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

The TDI is a great engine, that happens to wrapped in a newer VW, which means the usual relatively low reliability. Now, to put this in perspective, relatively low means instead of an average of a problem per year, there will be maybe two problems per year, which isn't a deal breaker imo, but something to be considered. It by far is the most efficient vehicle line for most drivers because of outstanding engine efficiency, which is probably why it's so popular and expensive. I wouldn't get any new car, and recommend an early 80s/late 70s compact, since that will be the cheapest, but if you absolutely have to have a newer car it's a fine choice. Then again, so is an early 90s Civic imo. Each has their strengths and weakness, so research and pick based on them.

[SVOboy]

I urge anyone who is considering buying a TDI to compare it to the insight on fueleconomy.gov for air quality ratings...making the assertion that the TDI is cleaner is wrong, and a simple search will show you that.

And for the reason why tdis hold there value so well, I will say that I think their prices are bloated, I would much rather save 1000 dollars buying an insight than a golf tdi. But that's just me.

[rh77]

I drove a new Golf TDI 5-speed a couple years ago and nearly bought one -- I really liked the torque and FE, but a few concerns came up:


Reliability
Costly Maintenance Schedule
Emissions


-Check Consumer reports for the reliability odds on different components.
-It requires Full-Synthetic oil, and the timing belt change is more frequent than the average model.
-I used to be a big Diesel proponent, but as SVO mentioned, the emissions are terrible. The "Clean Diesel" emissions system is better (not available in VW cars in the U.S. yet) -- but it's a new technology (my guess is they'll put the Urea injection design in the next model -- which requires re-filling it periodically). Honda has a design in the works that requires no Urea.

For running costs, and emissions -- there are better choices.

RH77

[Ryland]

I know a number of people who have TDI's, I've also owned/worked on two older VW diesels, and grew up with other VW's in the family.
Their CV joints wear out quicker then any other vehicle I've ever seen, along with their suspension struts, their timing belts wear out about as often as a honda (90,000 miles) but to change the timeing belt you need a handfull of VW only tools, I also just talked to a guy who had a 2004 I think it was, who said it was burning thru sensors, and he busted a timing belt that cost him a head rebuild and a tow.
I've recomended them to a few people, but mostly if they live out of town and tend to drive 15+ miles each time they start the car, drive less then that and getting a gas car makes sense to me.

[Brock]

-Check Consumer reports for the reliability odds on different components.
Great suggestion.
-It requires Full-Synthetic oil, and the timing belt change is more frequent than the average model.
03 and older can run semi synthetic oil (Mobil 1 or similar) 04 and newer is fully synthetic and all of them have a 10k oil change interval. I would run fully synthetic oil in any car I bought for the life of the engine and better mpg's. Yes the timing belt is every 100k, not sure what most gassers are, I know our Toyota Sienna is 80k and cost a bit more to have it changed then the TDI. If you mean between the gasser and diesel versions, the timing belts have the same change interval, so that must be a VW thing.
-I used to be a big Diesel proponent, but as SVO mentioned, the emissions are terrible. The "Clean Diesel" emissions system is better (not available in VW cars in the U.S. yet) -- but it's a new technology (my guess is they'll put the Urea injection design in the next model -- which requires re-filling it periodically). Honda has a design in the works that requires no Urea. It depends on what your looking at, diesel does have more NOX (smog), but far less CO2 (ozone), personally I would rather have ozone above us and smog down low. I have heard the urea system does require a fill like every 100k (the life of a car in the US) Not sure what VW is going to use.
For running costs, and emissions -- there are better choices. Also the typical life span of a diesel engine is about 1.5 times or greater then that of a gasser so I took that in to consideration when we bought ours.

[Lug_Nut]

I urge anyone who is considering buying a TDI to compare it to the insight on fueleconomy.gov for air quality ratings...making the assertion that the TDI is cleaner is wrong, and a simple search will show you that.If choosing to ignore the major emission component in order to sustain the current "No proof to CO2 adding to global climate change" mantra of the US government, then by all means use the US government's number. If you wish to consider the total impact, and not merely pick and chose emissions you want, then the diesels are better (well, less harmful) than the alternatives.
The Argonne National Laboratory has some interesting data on total well-to-wheel emissions of some different energy sources . Biodiesel (on a kWh to kWh basis) is less environmentally harmful from a total emissions quantity standpoint than some "green" technologies such as natural gas, hydrogen (both liquid and gaseous), grid electric (using the US national average energy mix), ethanol and such. Only renewable electricity (solar, geothermal, tidal, wind) and nuclear had lower total emissions.

[SVOboy]

You state things just as deceptively, without actually talking about the issues you seem to bring up.

Gasoline engines are much better for air quality, you do not seem to debate that.

However, for GHG emissions, you claims "diesels are better." This is deceptive because CO2 emissions correlate directly to fuel used and the carbon content of the fuel, so, for example, when you compare two cars, you cannot simpy say diesel is better, because my car gets better gas mileage than yours, and allowing that the carbon content of the fuels is not too much different, has lower GHG emissions than yours. On top of that, it also has less sulfur and particulate emissions than yours.

However, unfortunately for TDIs, diesel has a higher carbon content than gasoline (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/420f05001.pdf), so, my car has even lower GHG emissions than yours.

If you want to count "ALL" emissions (as you say), I guess VW may win once we factor in the BS emission levels.

[rh77]

Another concern is the concentration of fine particulates or soot. High concentrations are responsible for exacerbation of breathing problems, most of which has been a spike in Pediatric Asthma.

It could be argued all day which chemical emission is the worst and how to control it, but as I'm sure some have realized, there isn't one answer to the question.

A Diesel Golf is going to emit less CO2 than similarly-sized competitor. If you can get 50+ MPG in a Golf, go for it -- but of course consider other options as you are now :thumbup:

Another thing, nobody mentioned the "Ego" emissions of the Passat :sigh:

RH77

[omgwtfbyobbq]

However, for GHG emissions, you claims "diesels are better." This is deceptive because CO2 emissions correlate directly to fuel used and the carbon content of the fuel
EPA already controls for this. They use Carbon content to adjust for engine efficiency. For instance, if a 02 4cyl m/t Camry gets 27mpg combined, and a 02 4cyl m/t Jetta diesel gets 45mpg combined, the Jetta releases ~40% less Carbon than the Camry does. :thumbup:

Diesels emit more PM and NOx than the equivalent gasoline powered car, which emits more COx (x=1,2) and HC. PM<2.5 and HC are both carcinogenic, NOx contributes to smog formation, and CO is toxic w/ exposure being limited to 35ppm in the states. Carbon dioxide may contribute significantly to regional environmental change. Etc... Regarding the EPA emissions ratings, as long as it doesn't influence Americans in obvious ways, it's not a pollutant (http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=663667&nav=5D7l5O2b7L3e) right? :p

[Brock]

I would like to point out that most of the information for diesel is based on LSD or low sulfur diesel at 500ppm of sulfur. At every pump I have seen and almost everywhere across N.A. you will find ULSD or ultra low sulfur diesel at 15ppm or less. This reduces the particulate emissions and obviously greatly reduces the sulfur output as well. This change also allows for newer models to employ some NOX reducing equipment that will get it at or below even some of the better gassers.

Again I am not knocking gassers; each has its strong points and should be chosen based on many personal consideration, to many for someone else to choose for you. Honestly if someone had a 1.3L diesel weighing around 2000lbs it would get phenomenal mileage. Remember the VW’s are all 3200+ lb vehicles.

[FlyinTDI]

SVO"Boy".....
Hard for me to believe that one guy that doesn't even own a diesel can blow soooo much Smoke !!!!

[Bill in Houston]

Educate us, then.

[jcp123]

You just try finding one for $8500.

I almost bought an '03 TDi with only 43k miles for $11.995 before I would have negotiated it down, but for the minor fact that it was already sold :D . Honestly, though, I love diesels. Very torquey and low-revving, the way I like my cars, and with phenominal fuel economy to boot. With regular maintenance (and boy, you'd better stay on top of it), diesels last damn near forever, too. As a side bonus, they have great tuning potential. 170hp and 300lb-ft of torque is relatively easy to come by, if a tad bit pricey.

The drawback? Our VW's are assembled in Mexico and are either the most bulletproof, trouble-free car you've ever owned, or a complete POS. There is no in between, and unfortunately, there seem to be more of the latter than the former. Our '00 VW New Beetle was fantastically unreliable, for instance, where my Dad's '00 Passat V6 4motion wagon was positively the most maintenance- and trouble-free car I've ever seen.

[Hockey4mnhs]

if i could find one some day i would go for it. there are plenty of b20 stations around here and i think they are cool because there somwhat rare

[88HF]

Buy an old Porsche or Saab. Unless you can find a German built VW.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I've heard the german built MK1s tend to rust out much easier than the Westmorelands, but who knows if this is the case... In any event, MK1s seem to be right on the verge of VW's penny pinching antics.

[Erdrick]

I own a 1998 Jetta TDi. I haven't even driven it yet and I already love it. Hearing about a guy making a 400 mile trip, with 700 lbs in gear and passengers, plus a trailer with another 600 some odd pounds, averaging 85 miles per hour and still getting 35 mpg?! If you love FE, then the TDi is the way to go.

Definitely check out www.tdiclub.com Excellent information from diehard diesel fans. So, yeah there is definitely a lot of biased info on there, but I have never seen such a hardcore group of people. TDi owners REALLY love their cars. Any problem you ever face would have TONS of information on how to handle it.

The final nice thing about the TDi is that it, unlike gassers, is easy to get good mileage with. Regardless of how you drive it, you are going to get over 40 mpg. It is really rare to see people getting less than that, unless their car has problems. 50s are average for people who actually try a little, and the 60s are achievable with some effort.

As others have said, the engine will last a LONG time too, so as long as you take care of it, you will have a nice running car. Oh, and the torque is nice too.

[Blackbug1]

I am new to this forum and yes I belong to the TDICLUB.com great site. I have owned my TDI since 8-4-06 and just LUV my BUG. My last tank I averaged 59.437 MPG that was 876.4 mile on 14.745 gals. Right now I have 608.5 mile on it with 7/16s of a tank left, trying to get 1000 miles out of this tank! I owned a new 81 Rabbit with a diesel it back then and I must say the new diesels are nothing like them, the ones now are turbo and have all kinds of power and are fun to drive. Now on the timing belt issue I had mine replaced by a Guru on the forum and I must say these people are the most helpful bunch of people I have ever meet. Since then one of my friends bought a 99 NB TDI with 172000 miles on it and we replaced his timing belt, he is getting somewhere around 55 MPG. To get this kind of mileage you have to drive 55 to 60 MPH. Now finding a TDI is not easy right now, I had looked and looked for a long time before I found mine. A 98 NB with only 31000 miles on it I now have 58000. All I can say is keep looking or if you know a auto dealer let him know you are looking for one. Would I recommend one YES

[stinkindiesel]

I drive a 2000 Jetta TDi 5-speed with 140K on the clock, 104K of which has been on self-brewed biodiesel. The car has been phenomenal; no problems or issues that I didn't see coming- like brakes and rotors, antenna coming loose, my 3-yr-old breaking off the center console door, and the glow plug relay failed (in the summer- do we count that?).
This car has never let me down, runs like a Swiss watch, and has 10K oil change intervals. How often are you gassers changing oil?
The last fill was 8.4 gallons at 410 miles- that's 48.8 MPG. Couple that with fuel that costs me .65 cents a gallon to make, and it's dollar-equivalent to getting 235 MPG.
It's also enviromentally friendlier, biodegradable, better for the fuel pump and injectors and smells better.
And the hippies love me for it, even though I'm definitely not one of them.
Put the TDi's on a pedestal where they belong... gas cars- even the revered Insight- tread heavier on the resources than the TDi. I mean, what's the amortized cost of batteries? The last 104K cost me less than $1600 in fuel, and I didn't dump any lead, acid or plastic into the recycling stream.
By the way, my commute is 40 miles one-way, half in crawling traffic, half near speed limits; my weekends usually see me rolling another 200 miles at 80 MPH+ to San Diego and back (especially when the albacore are running).
I'm trying to change my lead-footed ways and see the magic 60 MPG.

[Bill in Houston]

and has 10K oil change intervals. How often are you gassers changing oil?
gas cars- even the revered Insight- tread heavier on the resources than the TDi. I mean, what's the amortized cost of batteries? The last 104K cost me less than $1600 in fuel, and I didn't dump any lead, acid or plastic into the recycling stream.
There's no need to even go down this road, is there? When TDI people sit around and wonder why everyone thinks they are so smug, just show them this post.

Sounds like a fun car. I hope it continues to do well for you, and that you get 60 mpg.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Couple that with fuel that costs me .65 cents a gallon to make, and it's dollar-equivalent to getting 235 MPG.
*cough*roadtax*cough* ;)

[skewbe]

Bill, stinkindiesel is correct in his statement, his "thoughts" about TDI and their advantages. I think it is a definate thing to put in the plus side for a TDI. Also I read that vegtable oil (renewable diesel fuel) is significantly more productive than ethanol, it returns 190% of energy put in v/s 125% for ethanol IIRC. And there's that Algae thing to consider too.

Most people don't want to think and figure priusus will fix everything, truth is that they make some new problems in the process.

[Bill in Houston]

Bill, stinkindiesel is correct in his statement, .Really? How much lead and acid is there in an Insight battery pack? I was pretty much with him until then. Even though my gas powered car also has a 10,000 mile OCI and holds less oil than his TDI. I was willing to let that slide.

[jcp123]

There's no need to even go down this road, is there? When TDI people sit around and wonder why everyone thinks they are so smug, just show them this post.


Then again, hybrid owners, by and large, are no better in my experience. Same for Chevy, Shelby, and BMW fans. Point being, smugness is not isolated to TDi fans...


One more thing I'd like to add: VW's have THE BEST instrument backlighting I've ever seen. The blue-and-red theme is fresh-looking, easy to read, easy on the eyes...and frankly, I just think it looks cool. :thumbup:

[Bill in Houston]

Then again, hybrid owners, by and large, are no better in my experience. Same for Chevy, Shelby, and BMW fans. Point being, smugness is not isolated to TDi fans...Totally.

[Sludgy]

Really? How much lead and acid is there in an Insight battery pack? I was pretty much with him until then. Even though my gas powered car also has a 10,000 mile OCI and holds less oil than his TDI. I was willing to let that slide.

I may be wrong about this particular case (i.e., the Insight), but most hybrids use non-toxic NiMH batteries.

And, the next generation of HEV/PHEV/EVs will use non-toxic, cheap and abundant LiFePO4 batteries. TDI owners will then have to find something else to be smug about.

Of course, the best of all possible worlds would be a hybrid with a small 20 kW diesel engine with a 100 kW electric motor and battery pack.

[stinkindiesel]

I've been driving almost exclusively diesels for the last 10 years, and it's easy to seem smug when you compare them to their gas counterparts. Who drives an F-250 with a gas 7.5 liter and DOESN'T gives envious glances to a Dodge 2500 with a 5.9 Cummins? (mine gets 19/21MPG) Are there any Honda Civic or Accord drivers who haven't looked with jealousy at the TDIs? I'm reading these forums, and it seems that there are alot of people bashing the TDIs and I can't understand it. They are great, competent cars that return incredible fuel mileage with minimal fuss. No staying in the right lane at 50mph, or shifting at 2317rpm because that's the most efficient shiftpoint. Just regular driving gets you 45+ MPG. Smug? Naaaah. Grateful? YESSIR. Thank God for great mileage and cheap biodiesel.

[stinkindiesel]

Just read Sludgy's post, and I've been PRAYING for somebody to develop a diesel/electric hybrid. Locomotives, tugboats, ships- they all got 'em... I want a scaled down version of the big boy's toys. Imagine moped MPG's from a car you could cruise to Vegas and back with 4 people. And luggage. We'll get there, eventually.
Whatever you build a battery with, you still can't just toss one in the trash- at least not in California. Not even an AAA. I'm curious, though- what does it take to make a NiMh battery in terms of resources, starting at the mine, through the smelter, the manufacturer and finally to the user. And what do they do with them when they've been exhausted? I'm not baiting anyone, I'm actually curious. I'd drop some coin on a diesel hybrid.
Robbo

[skewbe]

I may be wrong about this particular case (i.e., the Insight), but most hybrids use non-toxic NiMH batteries.

The only thing you would be wrong about is labelling NIMH as "non-toxic". People talk about NIMH batteries like they are going to grind them into baby food. Aside from nasty things used in their manufacture, they contain:
oxide of nickel, cobalt, aluminum,. lanthanum, cerium, neodymium, and praseodymium. The Material Data sheet says it may release toxic materials, so lets just stop acting like nimh is an environmental free ride.

http://www.mahaenergy.com/download/pdf/batterycell_msds.pdf

[stinkindiesel]

I just read omgwtfbyobbq's post about road tax. It gets better. Filing to pay the .19 cent excise gets me a .50 cent "blenders credit" against my fed return. Talk to your accountant. There's also a one-time fed credit available for the purchase of a biodiesel processor or the components to build one.

[Lug_Nut]

You state things just as deceptively, without actually talking about the issues you seem to bring up.
Gasoline engines are much better for air quality, you do not seem to debate that.
However, for GHG emissions, you claims "diesels are better." This is deceptive because CO2 emissions correlate directly to fuel used and the carbon content of the fuel, so, for example, when you compare two cars, you cannot simpy say diesel is better, because my car gets better gas mileage than yours, and allowing that the carbon content of the fuels is not too much different, has lower GHG emissions than yours. On top of that, it also has less sulfur and particulate emissions than yours.

However, unfortunately for TDIs, diesel has a higher carbon content than gasoline (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/420f05001.pdf), so, my car has even lower GHG emissions than yours.

If you want to count "ALL" emissions (as you say), I guess VW may win once we factor in the BS emission levels.

Well, from the top: I don't know just how much detail is needed to my assertions. The same government whose EPA you use to back up your selective claims, I believe funds the Argonne National Laboratories I use to back up my wider claim. Is that deceptive, or letting those that know make the claims. Just as you haven't done measurements yourself, and trust the government agencies given the responsibility to produce data to be truthful, so I also use a different agency of that same government for my data.

Air quality? What specifically is being quantified and measured? Particulate count? Gasoline engine emissions have a higher count of particulates. Diesel particulates are larger in size but fewer in number, so you pick one and I'll pick the other and we'll continue forever and both be wrong. There are claims that the smaller size particulates of gasoline combustion get deeper into the lungs and are harder to cough out. I can't debate that diesel particulate is larger in size than gasoline particulate.

because my car gets better gas mileage than yours, and allowing that the carbon content of the fuels is not too much different, has lower GHG emissions than yours. On top of that, it also has less sulfur and particulate emissions than yours.I see from your 'garage' that you get 40.17 mpg on gasoline. You can see from my garage that I get 46.29 on roughly an annual blend of B90.

A gallon of gasoline has the energy of 115,500 BTU. A gallon of petroleum diesel has 128,500 BTU, a gallon of B100 biodiesel has 117,090 BTU. My annual B90 would have an average of 118,231 BTU per gallon. My miles per gallon would have to be 2.36% better to be the same BTU/mile efficiency. Instead it is 15% better.

The same 115,500 BTU gallon of gasoline releases enough fossil carbon to create 10.874 kilograms of CO2. The same BTU equivalent in petrodiesel (.899 gallon) releases enough fossil carbon to produce 10.963 kilogram of CO2. The 115,500 BTU biodiesel equivalent (.986 gallon) releases a net of 2.746 kilograms of CO2 made from fossil carbon. My own B90 annual average contributes 3.568 Kg of fossil sourced CO2 to the atmosphere for each 115,500 BTU of work.

My 'work' is being performed 15% more efficiently and yet produces one third the GHG emission of you.

Petrodiesel has a maximum of 15 ppm sulfur. B100 biodiesel has zero. My 10% use of petrodiesel puts my average sulfur content at 1.5 ppm or less. Sorry, I don't know what gasoline sulfur content is so I can't debate this point.

When I talk of "all" emissions or "total" emissions, I want you to remember that the EPA regulated emissions are but a tiny fraction of the total environmental impact. NOx and CO and HC are measured in grams, the CO2 contribution is in the thousands of grams.

And I've just looked at the EPA site to which you link. They have neglected the emission impact of getting the fuel out of the ground, processing it, shipping it and such. That is why the number I use from the Argonne labs are higher than your numbers from the EPA. Must be some more of that "all" and "total" to which I keep referring...

Another thing, nobody mentioned the "Ego" emissions of the Passat :sigh:

RH77Guilty as charged

[skewbe]

I see whats going on here, you folks are JEALOUS of the TDI :). Hey, can't say as I blame you. I even find myself jonesing for the old diesel rabbit sometimes, really would like to know what it could do with p&g/etc...

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I may have the answer to that in a bit.

[Nerds laugh at me]

SVOboy : Why the name SVO as in "straight vegetable oil " ( biodiesel ) if you own a gas car ? : )
( Not dissin' the CRX dude. Just curious )

Personally, what I want is the cleanest car that I can afford.
If this meant installing a part that reduced my emissions 50% but ended up costing me more money when I fill up, I'd still do it !
I'm considering buying a TDI Golf that would run SVO. I could still get 40+ MPG and be clean at the same time ( and flip the finger to Big Oil too ).
The only reason that I don't own a TDI yet is that the emissions that my current car would produce would - in the hands of its new owner ( if I trade the car in ) far outweigh what I normally produce with the car.
I'd really like to see how much of a difference there would be emissions wise between a SVO TDI Golf getting 45-50 MPG on biodiesel vs. an Insight getting 60-65 MPG.
Wasn't the Insight ( manual transmission ) rated as an LEV ?? ( strangely enough, the auto got worse FE, yet has a ULEV rating )

I wonder how that a biodiesel would rate - LEV,ULEV,SULEV, or better.

Going off topic ( sorta ) What's up with the all new VW Rabbit ? 30 miles per gallon on the highway ....WTF !!! That just sucks !!!

VeganPowa ? hell yeah !!!

I've seen the " This car is a vegetarian" bumper stickers for SVO TDIs , but I'd want to modify mine to say "This car is a VEGAN " since actually the car doesn't consume dairy either. I would run soybean oil instead of that grease from places like KFC or McDonalds.

[Bill in Houston]

Wasn't the Insight ( manual transmission ) rated as an LEV ?? ( strangely enough, the auto got worse FE, yet has a ULEV rating )

Going off topic ( sorta ) What's up with the all new VW Rabbit ? 30 miles per gallon on the highway ....WTF !!! That just sucks !!!


The MT Insight had lean burn which disqualified it for ULEV. The CVT did not have lean burn.

About a year ago I was going to buy a new car to commute a long distance. I was stunned by how badly the VWs did in the comparison. I didn't include the TDI because they weren't making them. The gassers were just abysmal.

[CO ZX2]

The only reason that I don't own a TDI yet is that the emissions that my current car would produce would - in the hands of its new owner ( if I trade the car in ) far outweigh what I normally produce with the car.


N.l.a.m. You could drive your Civic over a cliff, I guess.;) Do TDIs not produce emissions? They sure smell like they do and burn my eyes besides.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Hmm... Sounds like some TDI owners is messing w/ their vehicle. AFAIK, they shouldn't produce enough NOx to burn anyone's eyes. Iirc, my bunny doesn't make enough NOx to burn eyes.

[Bill in Houston]

Maybe using high-sulfur fuel...

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Could be, but that shouldn't be available any more, and definitely isn't legal.

[SVOboy]

Well, from the top: I don't know just how much detail is needed to my assertions. The same government whose EPA you use to back up your selective claims, I believe funds the Argonne National Laboratories I use to back up my wider claim. Is that deceptive, or letting those that know make the claims. Just as you haven't done measurements yourself, and trust the government agencies given the responsibility to produce data to be truthful, so I also use a different agency of that same government for my data.

Air quality? What specifically is being quantified and measured? Particulate count? Gasoline engine emissions have a higher count of particulates. Diesel particulates are larger in size but fewer in number, so you pick one and I'll pick the other and we'll continue forever and both be wrong. There are claims that the smaller size particulates of gasoline combustion get deeper into the lungs and are harder to cough out. I can't debate that diesel particulate is larger in size than gasoline particulate.

I see from your 'garage' that you get 40.17 mpg on gasoline. You can see from my garage that I get 46.29 on roughly an annual blend of B90.

A gallon of gasoline has the energy of 115,500 BTU. A gallon of petroleum diesel has 128,500 BTU, a gallon of B100 biodiesel has 117,090 BTU. My annual B90 would have an average of 118,231 BTU per gallon. My miles per gallon would have to be 2.36% better to be the same BTU/mile efficiency. Instead it is 15% better.

The same 115,500 BTU gallon of gasoline releases enough fossil carbon to create 10.874 kilograms of CO2. The same BTU equivalent in petrodiesel (.899 gallon) releases enough fossil carbon to produce 10.963 kilogram of CO2. The 115,500 BTU biodiesel equivalent (.986 gallon) releases a net of 2.746 kilograms of CO2 made from fossil carbon. My own B90 annual average contributes 3.568 Kg of fossil sourced CO2 to the atmosphere for each 115,500 BTU of work.

My 'work' is being performed 15% more efficiently and yet produces one third the GHG emission of you.

Petrodiesel has a maximum of 15 ppm sulfur. B100 biodiesel has zero. My 10% use of petrodiesel puts my average sulfur content at 1.5 ppm or less. Sorry, I don't know what gasoline sulfur content is so I can't debate this point.

When I talk of "all" emissions or "total" emissions, I want you to remember that the EPA regulated emissions are but a tiny fraction of the total environmental impact. NOx and CO and HC are measured in grams, the CO2 contribution is in the thousands of grams.

And I've just looked at the EPA site to which you link. They have neglected the emission impact of getting the fuel out of the ground, processing it, shipping it and such. That is why the number I use from the Argonne labs are higher than your numbers from the EPA. Must be some more of that "all" and "total" to which I keep referring...


I, for my part, see no reason to distrust the public entity known as the EPA and have not become aware of any reason they might lie or conspire against the use of diesel, so I will not assume they are likely to test in a way that would create results detrimental to the environment in order to make diesels look bad.

Also, I was not quoting my mileage when my car had an automatic transmission, but my mileage since, which has been better than yours. I am not quoting the BTU/gallon, but co2/gallon, which I consider more relevant (not that I remember where I got the figures right now). If you want to play the "I'm-better-because-I-emit-less-carbon-from-automobile-fuels" game, you can look at how much I drive and figure it out for yourself. Personally, I don't care. I feel no desire to engage in petty contests as such.

The units used to measure pollutants is irrelevant here...I think we would agree 1 gram of mercury is worse than 1 kilogram of carbon dioxide.

In any case, drive your tdi. I am not insulting you or diesel fuel. I would gladly drive one of the newer cars with lower emissions, but seeing as I have no room to work with WVO and don't drive nearly enough to bother, I won't be doing it.

I was never arguing against BD or WVO, which I think are fine ventures and would prefer myself, just cautioning the use of diesel cars as such in general. In any situation, a one side discussion with important, unvoiced concerns is a dangerous one to have.

Anyway...

Nerds: It's a holdover from my first forum membership at vwvortex...

[Sludgy]

The only thing you would be wrong about is labelling NIMH as "non-toxic". People talk about NIMH batteries like they are going to grind them into baby food. Aside from nasty things used in their manufacture, they contain:
oxide of nickel, cobalt, aluminum,. lanthanum, cerium, neodymium, and praseodymium. The Material Data sheet says it may release toxic materials, so lets just stop acting like nimh is an environmental free ride.

http://www.mahaenergy.com/download/pdf/batterycell_msds.pdf

Everything, including air and water, is toxic when taken in excessive quantities. More people are killed by water every year than any other chemical. (Not just by drowning. There is actually a condition called hyponatremia that is caused by drinking too much water.) And excessive nitrogen (in air) can cause narcosis and "the bends".

My point is relative toxicity. Lead is more toxic than the metals in NiMH battteries. And new-generation LiFePO4 batteries contain only Lithium, Iron and Phosphorous, all "non-toxic".

[stinkindiesel]

Hey, I just realized... the guy's original thingie was asking people's thoughts on VW TDI's. I don't think he was setting out some bait to start a "my dog's smarter than your dog" war. We each have our favorite "pet". Mine is a black Jetta TDI (52.2 MPG last tank/B100- no forign oil needed). I thinks they's great.
Another thing- even horses emit greenhouse gasses. So do you. Yeah, I know your GHGs are less detrimental to the enviroment (unless your "enviroment" is upwind of my enviroment) than ANY car's, but at least the guy's not asking if there's anything he can do to keep his 1972 Buick 225 from smoking so much, and maybe get the MPG's into the double digits. Right?
At least he's interested. Save the planet, save some money... win/win.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Filing to pay the .19 cent excise gets me a .50 cent "blenders credit" against my fed return. Talk to your accountant. There's also a one-time fed credit available for the purchase of a biodiesel processor or the components to build one.*cough*CAroadtax*cough* ;)

[bigblue]

just for a reference, I paid $2400 for a '97 passat tdi in poor condition with 220,000 miles. Personally I don't really like the engineering of the chassis and the car itself, or many other VW models but I'm glad I bought it and would definitely buy another.
I do the work myself and for $300 in parts (and the help of some great people on tdiclub) I got it to run reliably. I have $2700 into it with a fresh timing belt, filters, water pump, and many other little wearable replacement items.

Now with the AC on and driving aggressively my last tank was 40mpg but I have had it up to 43mpg. It's got issues, my Check engine light is on and occasionally goes into limp mode but it has been very reliable for 10,000miles so far.

[stinkindiesel]

omgwtfbyobbq *cough*californiaalreadygetsenoughofmydangedmoney* cough*
Taxation without representation- and if you think Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstien represent MY interest, yer just nuts. I'm a college-educated heterosexual married white Christian male who owns guns and works- hard- for a living. I am veryveryvery low on the list of voters that matter to them. So, if either of them wants to sit down and go over an itemized list of what I owe and what I've paid, I'll be glad to lay it out.

[Hockey4mnhs]

lol jeez you guys :)

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Well stinkindiesel, if it makes you feel any better, homosexual devil worshiping single brown males who have never attended college are veryveryvery low on the list of voters who matter. In fact, unless you're a bidness, or the shee... ahem, consumers the bidness fl... er, has. You probably won't mean much to them. :D

[skewbe]

...I'm a college-educated heterosexual...

Suuure you are, now just hand me the gun...

[stinkindiesel]

HEY!!! I mean, hey, I'm ok, not even close to snapping.
Speaking of voters who matter to our Cali senators, my wife is on ALL their mail and email lists. She's Puerto Rican (in California, that's the same as Mexican- "Hispanic" or "Latino" are have geographic context; in NY it means Puerto Rican, in FL it means Cuban, and in CA it means Mexican) and at one point she identified herself on some form as a Hispanic female small-business owner. Thankyouverymuch.
And brown un-college educated men (hetero- or homo-) get May 1st and May 5th off. Or at least they take those days off. I worked.
I'm laughing with a tear in my eye.
Oh, and which gun did you mean? Pick a color.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Heh, stop being so naive guero. In CA we get people from Mexico and beyond. In Riverside the family living in front of me was from Ecuador iirc. And the **** they can give each other, man... Anyway, if I was working a crappy job, I'd take off a couple extra days too.

[stinkindiesel]

I'm not naiive, guerro, I'm facetious. I know not all brown people in Aztlan are Mexican, etc., it's just that in if you've got a name like "Ramirez" and live in NYC, there are those dullards that will assume you're Puerto Rican. If you've got that name in Florida, they'll think you're Cuban, blahblahblah and so on. My esposa is P.R. and DON'T call her Mezcan. My stepmother is Peruvian (that's in southern Mezco... duh) but she'll read you the riot act if you assume she's Mezcan.
And shame on you for thinking eveyone who took off those days had cruddy jobs;). Heck, the ones with cruddy jobs take off the whole week!:eek:
The family across from me is Cuban, the folks next door are Brazilian. The people on the other side two doors down are Philippino. A door to door salesman saw my shaved dome and assumed I would commiserate and said "Sure are a lot of Mexicans around here".
I explained, that as a Christian, there are no colors or races; we are all God's creation and to judge a brother by the outward manifestation of his genetic information is the truest, deepest and ugliest form of ignorance. God himself recognizes a man not by what is presented outwardly, but what he carries in his heart and what he does with it.
He did not make the sale. Judging books...

[omgwtfbyobbq]

OMGz, I misspelled guerro! Damn, that's what I get for living in this cracker town for too long... :( And no, you can't be facetious unless you explicitly tell others so they don't look like foo's! :D

[stinkindiesel]

Mojave is cracker?!? Last time I was there it was cracker the way Santa Ana is cracker! Ya spelled naiive rong, to. I'm being funny there; ya kin tell by me spellin Ya, to and rong rong. I'm not really banging on your spelling. I have to type everything two or three times and spellcheck constantly- part of it is a dodgy batch of brain cells in a critical neural pathway, part is big sasquatch fingers and little tiny typewriter keys.
By the way, I judge people not by their color, ethnicity or accent, but by their cuisine (and, as evidenced by my -ahem- middlethickness, I love everyone). Do I really have to tell folks when I'm funny? Honestly, I thought it was more evident than that, like I was prima facie funny. Dang. Hello... is this thing on?

[stinkindiesel]

AANNDDD if it was my responsibility to keep people from looking like foo's, I would be very very busy:D. Not with you. I've read your posts. You're one of the "keepers".

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Naw, not the city, the desert. Iono, probably just me. I guess I'm just really literal, and don't pick up these things. If you think I'm bad online, jeez, IRL is awful. Sumtimes, and I mean rarely and usually after the fact, I'll pick stuff up, but for the most part it's lost on me.

Editz- 80%+ Caucasian.

[stinkindiesel]

Wifey dear doesn't get me either. And I have scant hope of being appreciated after my death like Lenny Bruce or John Belushi. Wait, Belushi was appreciated before he died; never mind that one.
What's 80% cauc, you or Mojave?:)
I, myself, am some cauc (outside) part trash-dog (inside) and a bit chilisauce-American (attitude).
However you look at it, I am a distinct minority in California; as an American of European descent, aka European-American, aka melanin-challenged American, I demand my special-interest group (and don't you dare say the bunch on Capitol Hill are my special-interest group- I am NOT an amoral attorey-American)! Where are the protesters! Where are the public awareness marches!
I remember back on May 1st, 2006, it took me seven minutes to get an egg sandwich at Farmer Boys because there were only 3 "people of color" (to use Jesse Jackson's own divisive phrase) working in the joint. What if, as a protest, the "people of somewhat less color" (my own derivative phrase, spoofing Mr. Jackson's) didn't show up? Who'd unlock the place? ;) COME ON NOW!!! THAT WAS FREAKIN' FUNNY!!! I almost varmitted from laughin' so hard!

[Bill in Houston]

Man, I must be slow too.

[skewbe]

Naw, Churchie is just nuts, Must be the methanol vapors ;)

[Spule 4]

Want to know, ask the man that works on them....

New VW are terrible. A shame, as I loved the older ones, even when I worked on them for a living.

I also love Diesel cars. But the days of getting 300K out of a motor with no work are gone with the new ones.

This comes from a friend that is a manager of a large independent import repair shop that has worked on and owned BMW, VW, Citroen, Peugoet, Mercedes, etc for a living for 35+ years both in the US and in Europe.

Ask him what new cars to buy now, he will tell you Hyundai or Kia.

[Spule 4]

I also love Diesel cars. But the days of getting 300K out of a motor with no work are gone with the new ones.

Case in point, I just got off the phone with another longtime friend, he was driving his "new" 1982 Peugeot 604.

The car has the original motor and automatic and has over 700,000 miles on it.......

[jcp123]

omgwtfbyobbq *cough*californiaalreadygetsenoughofmydangedmoney* cough*
Taxation without representation- and if you think Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstien represent MY interest, yer just nuts. I'm a college-educated heterosexual married white Christian male who owns guns and works- hard- for a living. I am veryveryvery low on the list of voters that matter to them. So, if either of them wants to sit down and go over an itemized list of what I owe and what I've paid, I'll be glad to lay it out.


We had some of the same problems. One of the reasons (besides not being able to afford taxes anymore) we moved away from CA to TX when my Dad retired. I'd love to come back to CA, but I'm completely mindful of the problems and pitfalls out there...

[stinkindiesel]

skewbe- don't blame the methanol vapors; it's a vaporless systaem, totally closed. No sir, this is what ya get when a totally logical, stable thinking man finds himself surrounded by California.
Lovely spokes-wife says we can move when her parents "are gone"...
yeah. I thought about it. Not seriously, but thought about it all the same.
California is great, it's the political climate that hurts.
Oh yeah, TDI's rule.

[stinkindiesel]

Latest tank-593 miles on 12.2 gallons= 48.6 MPG; and alot of the driving was with 2 adults, 2 kids and all the accoutrements that come with them. Not bad for 140k on everything original except brakes and tires. Thankyouberrymuch.

[brucepick]

...
Whatever you build a battery with, you still can't just toss one in the trash- at least not in California. Not even an AAA. I'm curious, though- what does it take to make a NiMh battery in terms of resources, starting at the mine, through the smelter, the manufacturer and finally to the user. And what do they do with them when they've been exhausted? I'm not baiting anyone, I'm actually curious. I'd drop some coin on a diesel hybrid.
Robbo

Somewhere I saw a report that PG&E (the huge California utility made infamous in the movie "Erin Brockovich") plans to buy up used/no longer fully serviceable hybrid batteries for use as energy banks. Charge them up at night when power is cheap and plentiful, discharge them into the grid during daytime when demand is high. Considering the quantity of batteries that should eventually become available this could have a significant effect on electrical demand. Here in the Northeast there's a facility that "banks" cheap late night power by pumping water up a mountain. Daytime they let it run downhill to generate power.

The report is at
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/08/01/100138830/index.htm?postversion=2007073006
about 2.3 of the way down the first page.

[stinkindiesel]

Sounds like a good idea, but they'll have to weed out the deads, the ones that won't hold a charge, etc., otherwise they'll just be turning money into heat energy. Speaking of which, don't the transformers that turn A/C current into D/C and verse-visa lose alot in heat radiation or has technology conquered that?

[brucepick]

Sounds like a good idea, but they'll have to weed out the deads, the ones that won't hold a charge, etc., otherwise they'll just be turning money into heat energy. Speaking of which, don't the transformers that turn A/C current into D/C and verse-visa lose alot in heat radiation or has technology conquered that?

Nah. Well - Typical AC/DC converters probably lose a significant amount. Usually the simple ones use just one half of the waveform and waste the other half, if I understand it right. They block the negative side of the waveform by using a diode. But a transformer only changes AC voltage, it's not converting from ac to dc. Transformer does not = ac/dc converter.

My guess is that for this scheme to charge batteries they'd use a more evolved design that captures the other half of the waveform and flips it around to make it "positive" again - that is - to match the other half of the wave. That way they can also direct that energy where they need it. I sure hope so, anway!

Transformers are strictly an a/c device.

A transformer is basically a huge electromagnet with two wire coils, where the input circuit has x number of coils and the output circuit has a larger or smaller number of coils. The a/c pulses on the input side create this pulsing electromagnetic field which causes voltage to be created in the output coils. Since there is a different number of coils the output voltage is higher or lower. But it's still a pulsing phenomena, ac current.

I've kinda reached the limit of my knowledge on that - if you need to more you'll need to ask wikipedia.

[repete86]

The old ones last forever and make great veggie cars. The new (ie - post-1987ish) VW's suck though. They are prone to all sorts of mechanical problems. I'm curious about the new TDI's though that supposedly finally burn clean.

[SVOboy]

You think the old ones are better mechanically? Im not sure from a strict comparison, but I remember them being pretty bad when I was shopping for one way back when. Shoddy glow plugs, weird noises, rusty strut towers,　　rusty rust!

But I never had too much experience with it since I never owned them...

[stinkindiesel]

Brucepick- yow... 'lectricity sure is complicated stuff. I'm just glad it comes out of the outlets in my walls and I don't have to make it. I keep some in a battery in my car, too. Handy.
Are there any TDI owners who think they suck? I mean, I know they're a few TDI drivers who moan and groan about glitches here and there, but are there any folks out there who have owned a TDI and have said "they suck, I made a mistake and I'll never do it again!"?
I've heard stories about "relay 109" and the "check engine light" gremlins, but every car has its quirks. Except Hondas. Aside from the "plain vanilla" styling and the current lack of a diesel offering, Hondas are automotive anvils, right? Well... I've heard stories...
I've never owned a Honda, so let me speak from experience- TDI's rule!!

[Mike T]

I've heard stories about "relay 109" and the "check engine light" gremlins, but every car has its quirks. Except Hondas.

I worked with two women who bought new Honda civics, one in 2001 and one in 2006.....

The 2001 Civic broke down a few times, refusing to start....eventually the fuel pump was replaced and she dumped the car, being concerned about future no-starts out of warranty.

The 2006 is a regular one (not Hybrid) and she had two complaints: one: when shifting gear (it's a 5 speed), the linkage echoes inside the cabin (it sure does, I heard it) and while that's not a reliability issue, the next one might be: it hiccups unexpectedly at certain random times, like a brief misfire....the dealer can't figure it out.

So much for the perfect Honda myth! But yeah, on average, they're WAY more relaible electrically than VWs.

[Nerds laugh at me]

N.l.a.m. You could drive your Civic over a cliff, I guess.;) .

.

[stinkindiesel]

This just in: Riverside CA to Henderson NV on one tank, 733 miles on 13.2 gallons = 55.5 mpg with two passengers and 200lbs of luggage.

[halfish]

i have a 2006 Jetta TDI, ordered it with top of the line interior package, came to 26,500 (also ordered it without automatic transmission- this saved close to 1800)
Got it in August 06-it now has 28,000 miles. I get 48mpg driving 1/2 city and 1/2 highway on 35 mile commute to work, top speed about 65 for 10 miles (no interstate hgwy). Holds 14gal
My friends in Scotland have owned diesel BMWs for several years- same in Germany where all my friends who have a car have diesel. Diesel is MUCH more proven than hybred.
This car requires synthetic oil, changed every 5000miles.
Typical tank gets me about 600 miles (average 42-44mpg) where a lot of my driving is city miles.
I love driving this car. I hear horror stories about VW electrical and timing belt and brake issues, but so far absolutely no problems.

[keloyd]

I recently sold a 97 Jetta TDI bought new and driven 203k miles, still in pretty good mechanical and cosmetic shape. Like everyone else, I have lots of friends with Accords to compare.

Certain Honda's are on par with a TDI for fuel economy after adjusting for the increased cost of diesel. The Honda Civic HX (44 mpg hwy) is incredibly rare as a used car, but if you are patient, something on Ebay, cars.com, autotrader.com, or local may show up. I second the Insight comments above. The earliest Civic hybrids with high miles may also fall into your price range. In either case, the batteries last donkey's years and the consensus of blogs like this is that you can drive them without batteries when they finally die. You just have an efficient car with a safe but not exciting amount of power. Geo Metro's from the early 90's and other econoboxes of the 80's had less power to weight ratio than these without battery boost. That's not very sexy, but is the worst case scenario years off in the future, and the batteries may get cheaper.

VW is dropping the ball in several respects. Dealer quality is extremely variable. I was the victim of a brazen (attempted and failed) swindle at the Lubbock TX dealer while in warranty. Mission-critical things are as good as Honda - like the motor, manual tranny, clutch. Less vital things are made less well. Any electrical thing gets very flaky after age 10 or 100k miles. You must learn to ignore phantom signals to the check engine light, glow plug light, and random humming from resonating, aging circuitry. TDI maintenance is needlessly costly. A timing chain and 100k mile belts are common with the Japanese, not VW. My A3 Jetta was lighter than future generations, with better fuel economy. New Jettas take a hit from being bigger, then again from tighter emission standards. VW Power windows are notorious; do not even consider a VW unless it has crank windows. Oil filters are tricky to find. I once had a nonspecialist garage turn me away when I went in to ask about a blinking glow plug light. He couldn't help and was honest enough not to lie. No Honda problem will make a mechanic show you the door like that.

The new Jetta's are quieter than mine, but all Honda's are quieter still (except the insight, 75 db at 70 mph is pretty spartan per Road and Track).

You could put those groovy Insight wheels on a cheaper Civic and squeeze a few more mpg out of it?

[gee765]

I've had my tdi up to 106 mile per hour, and it seemed like I was going 60. I swear to god. These cars are built for the Autobahn where there is no speed limit. German engineering.

The don't recommend going that fast here in the US. It's probably considered reckless driving and many points off your driving record and of course the fines .... well.

But sadly, I am going to sell my golf to do some engineering on a car that has less value. So it's for sale --check the classified on here 03 golf.

[Brock]

I would agree of all the cars we have owed the VW seems to feel so solid and tight. I believe it is over engineered with respect to the steering, breaking and overall handling but it is really nice handling car.

I have also become a huge believer in tires. Not necessarily over sizing them, but going up a load grouping or two in both load rating and speed rating. My brother in law also has an almost identical TDI and his has 195 15 89S (89=1279lbs and S=112mph) tires on it. The car feels so must more loose, I know the tires are generic, but compared to the 195 15 91H (91=1356lbs and H=130mph) they are mushy. So many people think that the speed rating on a tire is just what it is rated up to, which is true, but if your running 80 mph on a tire rated to 112mph vs. a tire rated for 130mph which one do you think will handle better? I have felt the difference and appreciate it now.

[Big Dave]

The TDI engine is excellent. The VW cars they come wrapped in are junk.

Good luck finding a TDI of any description at any price. I did an Autotrader search and only found one within 200 miles and it was on a salvage title.

The Law of Supply and Demand is firewalled right now. There are simply no VW TDIs, Honda Insights, or hybrid Priuses out there on the used marget right now. You can get a heckova deal on a SUV though. They are offering $15,000 off sticker around here and still no takers.

I've even seen an old Chevy Vega on the road lately.

[halfish]

I have a 2006 Jetta manual 5 speed TDI. Had to order it to get the 5 speed manual.

This car has been incredible. Drives great. Sounds good.

Milage has been overall 49.5 mpg. On the highway i get at 75 53mpg with the AC.

I have 31,000 miles. (I have not seen the T shirts the one guy mentioned, but I can agree with him on this point- when stopped at a light or in a parking lot if two TDIs meet the owners usually talk and compare notes. Its like, we have to compare notes to make sure we are not dreaming. But the TDI is for real and is incredible. What is more INCREDIBLE is that DETROIT is so far behind in this area!!!!

Looking forward to seeing the 2008 TDI VWs available in August/Sept.

Hal

[halfish]

THe reason no VW TDIs are available is that the owners are not giving them up.

[McPatrick]

Those TDI's are very good and the package around them is pretty nice too I personally think. Maybe a little squeek here and there but very nice interiors and great seats that aren't too soft.
In western Europe about 30-50 percent of the cars are diesels and taxi's are always diesels. That tells you something about how long these engines last as well. They do make a bit more noise but once you owned one for a while you will actually start to enjoy that sound and miss it if you aren't driving a diesel anymore.

[93dagsr]

I drove a new Golf TDI 5-speed a couple years ago and nearly bought one -- I really liked the torque and FE, but a few concerns came up:


Reliability
Costly Maintenance Schedule
Emissions


-Check Consumer reports for the reliability odds on different components.
-It requires Full-Synthetic oil, and the timing belt change is more frequent than the average model.
-I used to be a big Diesel proponent, but as SVO mentioned, the emissions are terrible. The "Clean Diesel" emissions system is better (not available in VW cars in the U.S. yet) -- but it's a new technology (my guess is they'll put the Urea injection design in the next model -- which requires re-filling it periodically). Honda has a design in the works that requires no Urea.

For running costs, and emissions -- there are better choices.

RH77

whats urea??? how does the clean diesel emissions system work?

[Rick Rae]

The Law of Supply and Demand is firewalled right now. There are simply no VW TDIs, Honda Insights, or hybrid Priuses out there on the used marget right now.

Pardon? (http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=5580) :)

Honda Insight (http://atlanta.craigslist.org/car/482293963.html)

VW TDI (http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/car/489861579.html)

Two minutes with Craigslist. What am I missing?

Rick

[Lug_Nut]

whats urea??? how does the clean diesel emissions system work?The ammonia in the urea combines with the NOx to form something else. Works more effectively in bigger vehicles with bigger displacement engines (Touareg, Audi Q7, and such). I'm no chemist, and I can't remember what it transforms into, but ammonia is involved. It's just black magic, evil juju to me.
The smaller diesels (Jetta and Golf sized) won't have the urea injection systems. Their NOx production rate differs enough that they'll use an "afterburner" to periodically burn up the particulates and NOx captured in a trap. That one apparently still has teething problems that have delayed the early 2007 introduction of the 2008 TDI models until....2008.
Solving the diesel emissions 'problem' was forced by insisting that the diesel vehicles adhere to the same emissions requirements as gasoline engined vehicles, and about time. That means soot, particulate, and Nox emissions, formerly relatively lenient for diesels, are much tighter. VW's claim is that their emissions control system for the 2008 models, whenever they finally come out,will have their diesel at lower emissions than the 'traditional' hybrids of Prius and Insight.
I now have my 4th and 5th TDI, My first was totaled, second was sold at 300k miles (still running at 350k+ last time I spoke with the new owner), third was totaled, fourth is my present wagon ($3300), and I recently picked up a 98 Jetta TDI ($2500).
Problem cars? Not to me. Maybe I've just gotten better with all the practice.