Electric conversion: Project ForkenSwiift

[nathan]

How much are you asking for that torque monster?

[MetroMPG]

I'm going to have it "remotely" evaluated by motor guru

[SVOboy]

Its the weekend! Time for some work, *whipsdarin*

[The Toecutter]

We're not going to use it. Need to start thinking about building a battery fund, or something.

Good shape - was serviced in '02. Smooth, clean commutator, good brushes. 4 external terminals (easily reversible). Tailshaft. Comes with big lovejoy coupler which you can modify for your project...

@ 240 lbs, shipping's not going to be cheap though

I'd be especially interested in it if I could get at least 100 HP peak from it.

[nathan]

I'd be especially interested in it if it came installed;)

[MetroMPG]

Sorry, "some assembly required". :)

[Silveredwings]

Anybody wanna buy a 12 inch torque monster?

We're not going to use it. Need to start thinking about building a battery fund, or something.

Good shape - was serviced in '02. Smooth, clean commutator, good brushes. 4 external terminals (easily reversible). Tailshaft. Comes with big lovejoy coupler which you can modify for your project...

@ 240 lbs, shipping's not going to be cheap though ;)

What else can you tell us about it (voltage, V-max, amps, shaft type/size, etc.) ? Even the etc.? ;)

If the motor isn't marked, do you know what the original system voltage was?

[MetroMPG]

he forklift was a 36/48v

[MetroMPG]

ell, that wasn't too hard. Got the monster in the garage and took it apart. With 4 major chunks - 2 end caps, the body, and the rotor - shipping may not be impossible after all. Just do it with separate parcels.

Ivan's visiting his out-laws today, and he has a better camera than the antique 1 MP unit I've got. So the quality pics will have to wait until he's back.

[MetroMPG]

Played a little this evening with the ammeter.

[rh77]

So I dead shorted a coat hanger between jumper cables :eek:. Call me Sparky.

Man be careful -- don't end up MetroToast!

[SVOboy]

Darins gone mad! La la la.

I've been talking you up to people around campus, how famous you've become. If you want to visit and speak I can get you 3000 bucks for speakers budget...

[MetroMPG]

I read just recently there's a Dartmouth prof who has a solar-powered EV (panels on the roof of his barn). Of course I can't find the reference now...

[SVOboy]

If you do tell me the name...might be jim merkel? I know a few have grease machines.

[MetroMPG]

I don't think there was a name - just "a Dartmouth professor". Sorry.

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Some drive motor pics:

[lemmiwinks]

Yes, I've read that about both Australia and NZ. What's up with you folks down there? And all the trouble that the little REVA EV stirred up? Wow.

It's our ADR (Australian Design Rules). They're very strict and rigidly enforced. Like everything, it's nothing money (and lots of it) can't fix, but it makes it a real PITA to get new kinds of vehicles on the road. When they do get on the road, they often end up costing a lot more than they probably should to cover the cost of DOTARS approval.

Cool - you're the first one who recognized it! :thumbup: (Or at least said so.)

I'm a massive EV1 junkie. I was amazed when I found out about it, then even more amazed when I found out it was all done 10 years ago. Gets me pretty cranky when I think about the advances in EV's that could have been made in 10 years worth of development if GM hadn't killed it off. Ah well, if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself! Looking forward to more updates as they become available :D

[MetroMPG]

What's even more amazing (to me) is the EV1's were still on the road just a few short years ago. "The last private EV1 lease expired in August of 2004".

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[SVOboy]

Mad props to you, darin. I'm serious, come speak here, we'll pay you...

[MetroMPG]

You're closest to what I'd actually like to do: I want to use a bicycle bell. Maybe hooked to a solenoid to sound it.

I'm actually already fairly concientious towards pedestrians since 40-50% of the time the Blackfly is moving, its engine is off. I often tap the horn to let people know I'm there.

How about half a door bell? :)

Hoo ha! Someone with a Xebra beat me to it:

http://sjl-static2.sjl.youtube.com/vi/TertK0dKkjU/2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZpwnfzQKwc&NR=1

Awesome.

[Wobblybob]

It was fate I tell you! It was meant to be.

For a couple years I have been enthused about converting a Metro to either pure electric or hybrid (Mother Earth News like). Then last July my wife made the mistake of leaving me at home alone for a few days to go on a cluck-cluck trip with her girfriends. And an ebay auction for a '93 Geo Metro (with a bad engine) was closing while she was gone!

I mean that can't be a coincidence can it? I didn't have a choice did I?

But, sadly, it has been sitting out back ever since, cause I'm building a house. Then you come along and do exactly what I'd love to be doing, the same way I'd do it too - on the cheap, but worst of all with a Metro that looks exactly like mine! And it works!

Thanks a lot!:) Now what am I going to do? Finish the house or start piddling with the Metro?

Seriously, great work and great scrounging. Best of luck. I'll be checking the thread probably twice a day.

[MetroMPG]

Hey, WobblyBob.

That is one heck of a coincidence!

You just made me think of something. How many people here have heard of Grassroots Racing? The concept is something like: build up a $2000 car (total cost), then race it against everyone else who entered the contest.

Maybe we need to have a Cheap EV Build-Off competition. Like $1500 US max expenditure, cars judged on top speed, range, creativity, safety, aesthetics... :)

Anyway - best of luck to you, too. I say forget the house and start on your Metro. What's the saying... You can't drive your house, but you can live in your car.

[MetroMPG]

Tomorrow the recently-neglected FS

[trebuchet03]

Wow... You're the man Metro :) Errr.. well, that is... if you're a man... the point is, I mean that in a good way - or something o.0

[SVOboy]

Wow... You're the man Metro :) Errr.. well, that is... if you're a man... the point is, I mean that in a good way - or something o.0
He is a he.

[MetroMPG]

Ha! Funny comment just posted at YouTube: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDERyAILOak)

Has anyone offered to donate money to you for batteries? Maybe you should ask for donations and just keep an account of it on your video....Keep up your save the earth tour.The idea of setting up a carbon offset program to fund the build did occur to me... :D

BTW, does anyone know what's up with YouTube's comments? I'd say 4 out of 5 times I try to reply to someone's comment, my reply never appears (even though I get the javascript alert saying it has been posted).

(PS - over 2k views. This one's popular.)

[MetroMPG]

De-exhausted the

[SVOboy]

How did you stop the car then!!?!??

[MetroMPG]

Hand brake. Wasn't going very fast (that goes without saying :D)

[landspeed]

The 36v idea sounds good - and surely it would cause less Peukert effect rather than more?. Because, from the viewpoint of each 12v battery, less current will be being used (because there are 12 rather than 8 batteries), so the current gets spread out?

[MetroMPG]

See, landspeed, now you've got me in unfamiliar territory.

[MetroMPG]

So, I bungeed one of the cooked floodies onto my

[MetroMPG]

Oh - and further to the 36v parallel / 72v series idea, I have been recently talking to folks

[Bill in Houston]

Chicken!

;-)

[MetroMPG]

Not chicken - cheap!

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[Brock]

I believe (but am not certain) that two 36v strings in parallel will halve the amps that each string sees, so yes, it might reduce Peukert's and extend range. (In series, I think each battery sees full amps.) On the other hand, at 36v, you need more amps to do the same work.


In a loud announcer voice "You are correct sir!" ding ding ding.

Personally I would lean towards 48v bank at this point, like you noted it's less batteries overall and less load per battery for the same "speed" and more potential top end power ;) but not for as long as 2 strings of 36.

[Bill in Houston]

Not chicken - cheap!
Not wanting to tear up your stuff does not make you chicken or cheap. I was just teasing. This is such a cool project. Thanks for letting us all follow along.

[MetroMPG]

Brock - thanks for the confirmation.

Bill - but not wanting to spend the extra bucks for components that can handle more than 48v is. :)

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[Gary Palmer]

MetroMPG: I am following your project and progress with great interest. Thanks for keeping us posted. You could consider your recovery and recycling of the dead batteries as purchasing some more green energy credits.

On the junction, you can use a acetylene torch to heat up the nut and the junction, so that you can get it loose. Pretty freaky thing when the brake lines are rusted enough their breaking open, but you can't get the stinkin fittings loose. Best of Luck.

[MetroMPG]

Gary - yes, I should try the torch before monkeying with the splice idea. I do own one now, after all (my brother & I share one).

You're right: the situation with the nuts & rusted lines - it's irony defined. :D

[Bill in Houston]

Ivan's dad has a flare tool, so I think we're going to try to splice in repairs without removing the ends of the lines.Oooo, don't get dead or anything.

I like that giant motor. Surely someone is trying to build an electric small pickup truck and could make good use of it. Or something really cool, like a 240Z... :-)

[Gary Palmer]

On testing the loading on the batteries, could you just get a set of jumper cables and put your coat hanger load across the other ends of the cables, so that your not trying to hold anything with your hands?

And yes, don't get dead or anything.

[MetroMPG]

Bill - actually, someone doing a 240 conversion inquired about it. And I agree - I would think a small pickup conversion would be an ideal candidate for this motor. Or a Volvo - had an inqury from a someone thinking of de-icing an old Volvo 240 wagon as well.


Gary - yup, that's how I did it. We may build a dedicated rig for load testing. Something we could put on a shelf, rather than a tangle of jumper cables & coat hangers...

[MetroMPG]

Took a 35 minute break before lunch and aimed the torch at the frozen brake line nuts.

[DaX]

Took a 35 minute break before lunch and aimed the torch at the frozen brake line nuts. Worked like a charm.

I got both brake lines off, and I've been to the parts store for the right number of new lines, nuts & unions to reassemble it.

We'll still be using the flare tool to re-use the forwardmost section of the original lines (because that area wasn't corroded, and has a bunch of jigsaw bends & turns in it that would be hard to duplicate).

38 bucks later... it'll take a trunkload of recycled batteries to recoup the cost of this repair! :p

This brings up something to me - maybe it's been asked before and I overlooked it - is it difficult driving without the power booster on the brakes? How do manufactured EV's overcome this? Do they use a non-assisted master cylinder that has a large diameter?

[MetroMPG]

A lot of conversions use electric vacuum pumps & larger reservoirs

[SVOboy]

Sweet deal on the motor! I wish you luck with it. Perhaps I will update my own project...but I'm tired. Working on it much this weekend?

[MetroMPG]

Yes, please update the scoot thread.

I heard from the prospective motor guy again tonight - sounds promising. But I'm not going to say another word about it until I have the cash. :) Don't want to jinx it.

It's supposed to rain tomorrow, so that would be good "garage" weather. I'd like to get the tranny oil leaks completely sorted out. Plus need to remove the e-motor and rotate it 90 degrees to get its terminals out of the way of the battery rack that will sit over top.

Once that's done, we can look at continuing with rack fabrication. Now that the welder is broken in, I'm eager.

And of course: drive it around the neighbourhood to "test" each little repair/mod ;)

[nathan]

If you decide to go with a vacuum pump from a VW diesel for the brake booster let me know, i should be able to find one.

[MetroMPG]

Thanks nathan - noted.

--

One axle seal and 2 other gaskets later, the transmission leaks are fixed. Henceforth, no driveway shall fear the ForkenSwift!

[MetroMPG]

Project cost update: brake

[MetroMPG]

Didn't do any more work to the FS today,

[MetroMPG]

Had a very productive visit to the Ottawa EV association meeting last night.

[SVOboy]

You lucky dawg! With all the batteries you'll be making money on this damn thing soon enough!

[MetroMPG]

Yeah. That's funny eh?

There are other people in the group who might be able to use some of the leftover batts (we can't use more than 12 max, and more likely only 8). So we probably won't just turn in the extra ones for the recycling fee in a desperate attempt to reduce the build cost :)

[eric_twinturbo]

your video has inspired me to do the same ! i found two forklift for free but one is 24v and the other is 36v could it work ?

[MetroMPG]

Hi Eric -

Depends on what your goals are. Can you make a highway capable car with only the parts from a 36v forklift? No. Can you make something similar to what we have made (low speed, slow acceleration)? Sure.

The advantage of used parts is they're cheap (or free). The disadvantage is their voltage ratings are lower, plus you end up doing more "custom" work to make things fit together (e.g. non-standard motor shafts, etc.)

It's too bad there is no EV club in the Montreal area. If I recall, there seems to be a few cars in that area in the EV Album.

[lovemysan]

If your going to be driving on the highway with a load of 50lb+ batteries I'd at least stand a piece of 3/4" plywood at the front of the bed to cover the rear glass. Just in case. I've seen my fair share of people seriously injured by there cargo in small accidents.

[MetroMPG]

Yes - that happened to a friend of mine carrying a load in a small pickup. He was injured by his load crushing the back of the cab, not the collision with the other car.

[CO ZX2]

Metro, I have an SAE paper on automotive electric motors.

SAE 1999-01-1152.
Effect on Vehicle Performance of Extending the
Constant Power Region of Electric Drive Motors


If you think it would be of any use to you, I will get it to you.

[MetroMPG]

Hi, CO - is it as technical as it sounds? Would it cause me to stray from the path of "winging-it-ness"? :)

[CO ZX2]

Hi, CO - is it as technical as it sounds? Would it cause me to stray from the path of "winging-it-ness"? :)

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:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

This is a 5 page pdf only 65 KB. I could understand some of what they were talking about and I know very little on this subject. With what you have been thru in the last year, you should have a pretty good understanding of it. Interesting comparisons and graphs even if you don't use it.

Tell me how to get it to you and I will get it done.

[MetroMPG]

Sure thing: fire it off to darin [at] forkenswift.com. Thanks!

[MetroMPG]

Just noticed 2 separate visits from "Shanghai Kowin Automotive Components Co. Ltd" in the forkenswift.com traffic log.

First ever visitor I can recall seeing from China on any of my sites (that I monitor).

I sure hope we're not giving anyone any ideas for production vehicles! :)

[rh77]

Just noticed 2 separate visits from "Shanghai Kowin Automotive Components Co. Ltd" in the forkenswift.com traffic log.

First ever visitor I can recall seeing from China on any of my sites (that I monitor).

I sure hope we're not giving anyone any ideas for production vehicles! :)

Even with the censorship -- not bad! But yeah beware, they tend to take ideas and manufacture their own version (limited International patent enforcement). But -- if it helps keep them from buying a bunch of Cadillacs to reduce their Carbon footprint, then I guess "by all means".

[Bill in Houston]

Ya, they'll start buying up rusty old Swifts and drive up the prices for the rest of us. :-)

[MetroMPG]

Or worse: cornering the market on used 6v batteries!

[Bill in Houston]

Nah, they could never afford the freight. ;-)

[MetroMPG]

So I forget whether I mentioned: we're going to take the car up to the

[MetroMPG]

I've been chipping away (literally) at the body

[trebuchet03]

Sadly, paint supplies ($45) finally pushed the total built cost past the $1000 CDN mark. :(

Meh, it's safe to say body paint isn't part of an EV conversion :p EV or not, you'd be doing the same thing :D

[Bill in Houston]

Sadly, paint supplies ($45) finally pushed the total built cost past the $1000 CDN mark. :(Time to recycle more batteries!!

[MetroMPG]

There will be some more batteries to recycle soon. I still haven't tried the "new to us" Ranger EV batteries in the car yet, but there's no doubt a number of the old forklift co. floodies will be recycled.

[MetroMPG]

Here's a thought for anyone else considering a conversion. If you're going to try hypermiling your EV, you might want to=

[MetroMPG]

Meh, it's safe to say body paint isn't part of an EV conversion :p EV or not, you'd be doing the same thing :D

True enough. If I exclude all costs that aren't strictly EV parts related, we're WELL under $1k!

[Bill in Houston]

So you don't normally shift when you drive it? You just pick a gear and stay in it?

[MetroMPG]

I shift, but upshifting seems much easier than

[MetroMPG]

Should add: some "proper" conversions don't need to be

[Bill in Houston]

Okay, I see. I'm sure that it would be easier with a tach. Have you thought about putting one in?

[MetroMPG]

Thought about it, yes. It would be useful in more ways than one. Question is: how to do it on the cheap? :D

---

Good news on the build cost front!

[MetroMPG]

For anyone counting (I am!), that brings the net cost of the parts we kept from the old Baker (2 pump motors, cabling, EV-1 controller, fuses, contactors etc) to $34.95 after recycling refund & the drive motor sale.

[Bill in Houston]

Thought about it, yes. It would be useful in more ways than one. Question is: how to do it on the cheap? :DDon't ask me! You're the smart one! :-)

I think that some really smart guy would say something about sticking a rare earth magnet somewhere as a pickup, and then some sort of chip, and some sort of counter circuit, and some sort of display. It was really easy for the Electrical Engineering geniuses on the Prius groups, but it made no sense to me.

Personally, I'd be searching junkyards for an old timey mechanical tach, and then figuring out where to hook it to the motor...

Oh, and great news on the torque monster...

[SVOboy]

Yay for 700th post, looks like everything is going okay for you, darin.

This thing is ending up so cheap, perhaps you can upgrade it's range/top speed a bit?

[MetroMPG]

Personally, I'd be searching junkyards for an old timey mechanical tach, and then figuring out where to hook it to the motor...

One thing I was thinking: just attach a tiny dc motor (or a magnet and coil pickup) to the drive motor's end shaft and calibrate its voltage to the motor RPM (which we can back-calculate based on vehicle speed, knowing the transmission ratios). Then make up an analog volt gauge that ties it all together....

[Silveredwings]

One thing I was thinking: just attach a tiny dc motor (or a magnet and coil pickup) to the drive motor's end shaft and calibrate its voltage to the motor RPM (which we can back-calculate based on vehicle speed, knowing the transmission ratios). Then make up an analog volt gauge that ties it all together....
If the car came with a tach, then it probably is an analog votmeter. The way they worked with mechanical points is that the low voltage coil wire would send pulses to the tach. Inside the tach is a capacitor with a bleed resistor. The pulses would charge the cap and the resistor would discharge the cap. The faster the pulses charge the cap, the higher the voltage and resulting needle indication. As the pulses slow down, the continuouse discharge through the resistor allows the voltage (and needle) to fall. It's so simple that something similar must exist on electronic systems using a hall-effect device that gives the ECU it's engine position information. The ECU probably sends a cleaned-up pulse from the hall-effect device to the tach (that's my guess).

Since there's no ECU, you may be able to simulate the pulses by using an optoisolater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Opto-couplers.jpg) which is a colocated LED and photo-transistor with a small separating gap between them. Mount the optoisolator close to a rotating part of the motor (like the coupler) and some kind of shutter glued to that part so that as the 'fin' revolves, it interrupts the gap. To avoid balancing issues with the rotating mass, the shutter should be made out of something opaque but lightweight like a small piece of aluminum flashing. The tach is calibarated to a specific number of pulses per revolution according to the number of cylinders the ICE had. You would want that same number of interruptions (pulses) per revolution. Does any of this make any sense??

[MetroMPG]

Yeah, that makes sense. Unfortunately neither the red or blue cars had tachs. I'm pretty sure some computer mice used optocouplers connected to the ball to detect movement - was thinking if I were just a bit smarter/more motivated, I could hack one of those to do something useful :)

Say... how's the Healey?

[Silveredwings]

Yeah, that makes sense. Unfortunately neither the red or blue cars had tachs. I'm pretty sure some computer mice used optocouplers connected to the ball to detect movement - was thinking if I were just a bit smarter/more motivated, I could hack one of those to do something useful :)

Say... how's the Healey?
The Healey patiently waits. My oil pressurization attempt didn't work (20W50 with stabilizors was too thick) and I seem to need to rebuild the starter...but the lakehouse has a new roof and life goes on... ;)

So... is a junkyard tach an option? If so, I'm fairly certain you could make one work. The advantage (besides asthetics of an oem part) is the nice big 270 degree sweep of a tach movement. Also, if the inertia of the movement is high enough, you can skip the capacitor and resistor I mentioned above. See this most helpful article: http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/CheapTricks/Tachometer/index.shtml#Theory

[MetroMPG]

Cool - thanks for the link. Glad to hear about the new roof too :)

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[pauldl63]

hello,this is my first post on this forum and i would like to hello to everybody.after reading what's been done to build the forkenswift I too are considering the same sort of project,while looking through the US ebay sight I came across the listing which I thought might be of some interest to somebody.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230132757298&rd=1,1
anyway all the best,cheers---palu

[MetroMPG]

Hi Paul - welcome to the site.

That motor would be fine for a large vehicle - it's a beast @ 375 lbs! (I thought the Torque Monster was heavy @ 240.) The main challenge would be finding / making a controller for it, since the field is separately excited, rather than the more common series setup (some people run 2 controllers - one for the armature, one for the field. You can also buy dedicated Sep Ex controllers).

The shipping cost will be the other big challenge.

Funny: I've had 3 inquiries about the Torque Monster since receiving the deposit for it. Which makes me think that, as usual when I sell stuff, the price was probably a bit too low :o

[Silveredwings]

So I had to replace the Healey starter. It was a crude little series-wound motor that could be rebuilt, which I attempted, but the commutator was WAY out-of-round so I surrendered after almost a day of effort. Maybe I'll log it as training for some future EV work. :)

As for the rest of it, it'll have new: carbs(x3), fuel & water pumps, belt, door latches & strike plates, trunk lock (its the only thing that does lock), hoses, thermostat, cap, rotor, condensor, plugs, points(x2), and fuel filter. Rebuilt starter, speedo, temp/oil combo guage, gas tank, and a whole lot of et cetera.

BTW, congrats on your 4,000th post. ;)

[MetroMPG]

I don't know that 4000 posts is a thing to be celebrated! :confused:

So, do you have to come up with another means of pressurizing the oil now? Could you pressurize it with something lighter just to get it lubed & turning over, and then drain & refill for the big fire-up?

[SVOboy]

Pictures! I demand pictures...

[MetroMPG]

I'll take some on Sat at the EVent. :)

[Silveredwings]

So, do you have to come up with another means of pressurizing the oil now? Could you pressurize it with something lighter just to get it lubed & turning over, and then drain & refill for the big fire-up?
That's probably what I'll do but I need a container that I can easily pressurize (only about 20 psi). I tried a big liquid laundry detergent container but the plastic stretches and looks like it's going to pop. :(

Those stripes and paint detailing sounds great. I can't wait to see it. :thumbup:

[Bill in Houston]

A 2-liter bottle can take a lot of pressure. If it worries you, put it into a 5-gallon bucket of water to contain any "blast force". Like they do when they are filling SCUBA tanks, if you have ever seen that.

Something I heave read about on small block chevy engines is to remove the distributor, attach a drill to the distributor/oil pump shaft, and spin it with a drill.

[SVOboy]

Will we be seeing more pictures, Mister CBR125 Exporter Sir

[Silveredwings]

Is that an old picture? It looks like autumn.

[MetroMPG]

Mr. CBR 125 exporter says:

- Ivan took his camera.

[CO ZX2]

Forkenswift sure is shiny now. Wheels, tires, underside of hood is amazing; must have spent hours scrubbing and polishing there alone. Kept looking for the stripes, must be along the bottom sides??

Looks like you had a warm, sunshiney day and a lot of people.

Should of had a Low $$$ prize. I'll bet no one would else was close.

Congratulations on getting it spiffed and running for the show. Proud of you.

[MetroMPG]

It looks like autumn.

Ah - now I see what you were getting at.

It's recent as in sometime in the past couple of years.

--

[MetroMPG]

Yee haw: the "new" used batts are going

[MetroMPG]

b) record the time of the test

[SVOboy]

You're so very, very cool, good CBR125 sir.

What do you think you'll be ending up with as a final range when you're done?

[SVOboy]

PS: I might be parting out my scoot and I'll prolly end up with a frame...what do you think the electric potential is like?

[MetroMPG]

CBR125R person replies:

On these batteries, looks like range to 100% depth of discharge in slow/hypermiling mode

[MetroMPG]

Probably could end up with something like this (functionally) for not too much money:

http://www.twobikes.ottawa.on.ca/share/photos/2007-05-26-EV-Expo/070526-145854-156-1d_thm.jpg

http://www.twobikes.ottawa.on.ca/share/photos/2007-05-26-EV-Expo/070526-145854-156-1d.htm

I didn't get a chance to look at this e-scoot, but I believe it's legally an electric bicycle in Ontario. Which would mean 500w motor max continuous rating, and probably 36 or 48v worth of gel batteries. Max speed would be electronically limited to 30 km/h. Don't know about range...

[SVOboy]

Interesting, interesting to the max.

And ssh on the r, we don't want to scare the mpgs away.

[MetroMPG]

Almost forgot: while I was out lapping the neighbourhood today, I went past the house where I bought the blue car, and the lady was getting out of her "new" car

[pauldl63]

hello,just wanted to say the EV Expo looked like a great day,great weather as well,looked like the type Sydney(Australia) is now enjoying.from some of the listed pics I didn't how bad some of the cars suffer some cancer(rust).what's the normal life span of cars in north america that live in snowy areas?
enjoying the site as well,cheers---palu

[MetroMPG]

Weather was fantastic. Sunny but not too hot: 25 C.

Re: rust - depends on whether they salt or sand the roads in winter. Cars in salty areas that aren't regularly rust treated (or are badly designed) will be toast in about 12 years, I'd say.

[CO ZX2]

Sharp!!!

Wanna borrow my car for about a week???

[MetroMPG]

Sure! Question is: do you extend the stripes into the wheel skirts or not..

[SVOboy]

Haha, do it! Make them seem stock. Hell, make them metal and weld on brackets for them to attach to...

[caprice]

- 89-94 metro: 1650 lbs
- 84-87 civic: 1797 lbs
- 95-99 metro: 1830 lbs
- 94-97 aspire: 2004 lbs
- early fiero: 2500 lbs


My high school had a class that built 2 VW rabbits EV. I wonder what the weights are on those

[pauldl63]

Congrats on job well done.looks a treat.whats the go with insuring an EV car in north america and when it comes to rego time is there any reductions in the cost compared to the average car.I ask this because in queensland australia there is some sort reduction in annual rego costs.cheers---paul

[MetroMPG]

The Rabbits were pretty light (for their time): between 1800-1900 lbs is the most accurate I could come up with from a quick search. They were very popular as a conversion vehicle.

Paul: registration is the same cost here in Ontario, but there's no emissions test for an EV, so you save a bit there. As for insurance, it can be tricky, but it's possible to get. We'll find out just how tricky in a couple of months...

(Drat - there I go making progress predictions again - standard disclaimer applies...)

[Snax]

As far as insurance goes for most EVs, I suggest shopping around for a 'declared value' policy. And just because one agent says no, that doesn't mean another won't say yes - even selling the same company's insurance.

Forkenswift can probably get by with a standard policy given the low cost of parts involved.

[MetroMPG]

The inquiries I'd made so far were for liability only - don't think we're planning to insure the vehicle for loss. $35/month was the best quote I got so far.

[MetroMPG]

Oh man, I love driving the ForkenSwift.

[MetroMPG]

2 more photo galleries posted of the EV Expo

[jwxr7]

Wow, I haven't checked this thread for a while. Nice job:thumbup: . That car looks great.

I'm inspired to try a pushmower electric conversion :) .

[MetroMPG]

This evening I rotated the motor

[MetroMPG]

Wow - just found a PDF from the company who makes the 24v/10A charger. They state 16 hrs required to recharge 100 amp hours! This is probably conservative, but still...

[Snax]

I am by no means an expert on EV stuff, but what I've picked up from the EVDL list is that there is one part of an EV not to skimp on if you want to limit headaches, and that is the charger(s).

I know the whole idea of Forkenswift is to keep costs down, but be sure to get a charger with good current and voltage limiting, as even a mediocre charger can dust quality batteries well before their time. I am leaning toward multiple parallel chargers myself for optimal battery balancing.

[MetroMPG]

Agreed. If I were building a proper EV with a pile of cash invested in a new set of balanced batteries, I think I'd also go the individual charger route. Soneil comes to mind. Otherwise I'd get balancers/charge regulators. Unfortunately, 8 soneils cost more than the total invested in the project.

[MetroMPG]

I just took the ForkenSwift for a spin around the block - fresh off the charger

[SVOboy]

Pretty sweet, what's your timeline for this thing going into actual use and what % of gas-powered miles do you think it will be able to offset?

[MetroMPG]

I don't do project timeline estimates any more :)

It's actually bound to offset very little of my ICE driving, because I bike everywhere local, unless it's raining. I can only think of 2 trips in the past couple of weeks where I would have used the FS. It's far more likely that I'll be driving it because it's so cool to drive. (I feel so dirty.)

Ivan, on the other hand, drives more. So it'll offset more of his ICE use when he has it.

[SVOboy]

Well...I guess it'll be useful, :p

[MetroMPG]

Correction: I will be offsetting other people's ICE driving. Forgot about this.

I'm pretty sure I'll be volunteering to chauffeur my family & friends around, where they would otherwise be using their ICE vehicle. EG my mom typically drives her Camry around 20 km a day for errands. I bet I'll be showing up to take her to the grocery store...

I mentioned this to her and she said: "why can't I just drive it myself?" :thumbup:

[SVOboy]

Do you ever actually work? Moving into the limo service?

[MetroMPG]

Do you ever actually work?

Funny... my customers keep asking me that too.

[SVOboy]

Well, keep it up. You're direction in life is set! Up up and away!

[MetroMPG]

Canada's most widely read auto publication is the Toronto Star's weekend "Wheels" section. They just launched a new web site with a "reader's wheels" photo gallery.

Care to guess what's been added to the gallery among the high power muscle cars & blingmobiles?

[OdieTurbo]

Dude yer famous now!

[SVOboy]

Your name is spelled incorrectly, Mr. Corgrove!

[MetroMPG]

Well, the Vulcan 24/10 charger isn't quite as smart as I thought it was. I wrote to the company (just down the highway in Toronto) and got this reply:

The EA24/10 does not use a 3-stage charging
algorithm. It is a simple taper type charger
meaning that as the battery voltage rises the
charging current drops off. When the battery
voltage reaches about 29.2V an electronic finish
timer is activated, and after 3 hours the
charger will shut down. If the charger is
sized appropriately for the batteries to be
recharged then the batteries will finish
properly during the gassing phase.

---

In other news, started work on the front battery racks this evening. Nothing special to report yet, but I'll take pics when I've got something to show.

[MetroMPG]

Your name is spelled incorrectly, Mr. Corgrove!

Yeah, funny. Well they got it right 2 out of 3 times, so on average they were correct.

[MetroMPG]

Tinkered a little more with the front racks on Saturday. Still nothing photo-worthy though. This week. Maybe I'll slack off tomorrow afternoon and do some more work on it.

I've been eBaying for a proper welding mask too, since there's going to be a need for that at this stage of the game.

[atomicradish]

Wow, the Forkenswift looks great.

Sometimes I pretend that I'm driving an EV Metro when I do ICE off coasting in my car.

[DaX]

Tinkered a little more with the front racks on Saturday. Still nothing photo-worthy though. This week. Maybe I'll slack off tomorrow afternoon and do some more work on it.

I've been eBaying for a proper welding mask too, since there's going to be a need for that at this stage of the game.

Are you looking for an autodark? If you're going to do any more welding after this project, I'd recommend getting a good one. I bought a cheapie first time around and after it went "light" on me during welding for about the 10th time, I sucked it up and bought a Miller Elite - haven't been flashed since - even on very low current settings.

I still have my cheapie eBay autodark in my shop - I pull it out when someone else wants to observe me welding.

[Silveredwings]

Anybody know if the harbor-freight ones are any good?

[MetroMPG]

Yep, I was looking for an autodark kind. I was planning on snatching up one like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300120181097&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020

[DaX]

For what you're doing, I guess that will work. That's like my eBay helmet. The problem with these helmets is that the light sensor is small and there is only one - what happens is that while you're welding, if your hand or something is blocking the light from getting to this sensor, it will flash clear. This also happens on low amp settings (which you probably won't use unless you're tigging something thin). My Miller helmet has four sensors and a larger viewing window. It is also capable of staying dark for inverter machine arcs, and will stay dark down to 5 amps of current. Another difference in the helmets is the material - my eBay one is very thick, stiff plastic and gets uncomfortable rather quickly. My Miller helmet is made of a thinner, softer plastic which is more flexible and comfortable.

In the light of this being a budget project and the small amount of welding you're doing, I think you will be fine with the eBay unit. If you think you'll be welding a lot more in the future, get a good helmet.

[MetroMPG]

Thanks - that's good info. Amount of welding will probably be minimal, and higher current as you guessed. So I'll see if I can snag one of these and I'll report back about how it turns out.

[MetroMPG]

It was welding day in ForkenSwiftland! Fun, fun.

[lemmiwinks]

Forgive my ignorace, but what's wrong with ye olde fashioned welding helmet?

http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture8/polison/04-welding-helmet.jpg

I got one for $10AU and it's great. I even used the crummy plastic lens for a while but it was a bit light so I replaced it with a glass lens and spatterguard (about another $10AU) which was even better.

Then again, I may be a retro grouch/tightarse since I also use an arc (stick if you prefer) welder :D

Nice to see your build is coming along well anyway.

**edit**
On closer inspection that first photo was of a crappy helmet without a flip up lens.

[RickyD]

Hello all I am a newb and started reading this thread... Wowo its long.. anyway what are the current specs on this car how fast will it go and how far?

Has there been any talk on adding solar panels or a diesel generator for extended range? Or maybe even a small gas motor for high way speeds?

[MetroMPG]

Discovered another Suzukiclone conversion today, just down the highway in Toronto:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/imgm.php?n=1219a.jpg&w=300&h=224

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1219

Looks like they did a 4wd conversion while they were at it!

[Bill in Houston]

With the hood closed, there's about 1.5 in between the tip of the forward battery posts & the hood.
I think I'd make sure to have electrical insulating materials on the underside of the hood just in case something shifted and altered that clearance.

As always, great work.

[MetroMPG]

Agreed.

Another option is to cut off the threaded part of the post, which will add another 3/4 in. of clearance, and use a standard automotive style connector on the fat part of the post for those 2 batteries.

Regardless, some kind of insulator will be fixed between the hood & those posts.

[MetroMPG]

New milestone: it

[MetroMPG]

Milestone! On Friday

[MetroMPG]

Almost forgot to mention: sold a couple more ICE parts. The 1.3L engine (finally) and misc stuff from the red car. $90. That sale represents a healthy portion of the net cost of the project to date!

Also have a deal pending (touch wood) on the gas tank from the blue car. (It was replaced a couple of years ago).

[DaX]

Man that coat hanger in the water trick is scary!!!!

[MetroMPG]

More parts sold...

Met up with Ray from South Carolina yesterday, who drove about 1000 miles to Ivan's dad's wood lot in Ontario to pick up the 1.3 engine,

[SVOboy]

Keep up the good work with it darin! Im interested in seeing it sometime and I hope youre keeping your ear to the ground for the motorcycle, :P

Someday when I have wicked free time Ill shoot you an email to discuss life, ;)

[MetroMPG]

Finished the ForkenSwift's minimum range requirement was originally made.

[Bill in Houston]

200 km daily commute (nutbar!) rather than the 8 km r.t. commute for which the ForkenSwift's minimum range requirement was originally made.You're going to need more batteries. :-)

[SVOboy]

Nutbar indeed, I guess it's your job to drive it then?

[MetroMPG]

Got out the stuff today to the old FS before I go.

[MetroMPG]

Got some more flux core wire and did a bit of welding from a "sudden stop".

[BigMouse]

Hey there. Yet another future EV-er your project has inspired. I just bought myself a Baker 12" motor almost exactly like the one you sold off recently. Look Familiar? (http://twigmouse.ipupdater.com/miscpics/listpics.asp?a=dl&ID=2699) Square drive and all. I'm hoping to swap it into an Audi Coupe GT. I've got a bit of an electrical background, so I am attempting to make my own 'home-brew' motor controller to run this beast. While I intend to use the car for commuting and require 30mile range and 65mph+ speed, I too am doing mine on 'the cheap'. Cost so far (haven't even gotten the car yet) is $291.75, and includes the motor, and everything I need for 2 PWM controllers (assuming they work).

Thanks for documenting your project so thoroughly! Perhaps when I have something to show, I'll start my own thread and do the same.

[itjstagame]

Hey there. Yet another future EV-er your project has inspired. I just bought myself a Baker 12" motor almost exactly like the one you sold off recently. Look Familiar? (http://twigmouse.ipupdater.com/miscpics/listpics.asp?a=dl&ID=2699) Square drive and all. I'm hoping to swap it into an Audi Coupe GT. I've got a bit of an electrical background, so I am attempting to make my own 'home-brew' motor controller to run this beast. While I intend to use the car for commuting and require 30mile range and 65mph+ speed, I too am doing mine on 'the cheap'. Cost so far (haven't even gotten the car yet) is $291.75, and includes the motor, and everything I need for 2 PWM controllers (assuming they work).

Thanks for documenting your project so thoroughly! Perhaps when I have something to show, I'll start my own thread and do the same.

Can you please create another thread or post to a link for your inspiration on the PWM? I found a couple schematics and bought all the stuff I need just haven't assembled it yet. But it'd be good if I understood the theory behind it a bit. For now I'm still trying to play with learning pic programming. This was going to be for an electric motorcycle job but now I'm thinking more about converting the front of an MR2 to electric and integrating my PWM controller with my megasquirt in someway to control when to turn the ICE on/off and blah. It will probably never happen but at least I'm assembling all the pieces.

[MetroMPG]

Hi BigMouse

Yup, that motor end cap looks very familiar! If you do go ahead with the project, I hope you'll post a thread.

Building a PWM controller is way over my head. A contactor controller perhaps... What kind of controller specs are you aiming for?

[BigMouse]

Can you please create another thread or post to a link for your inspiration on the PWM? I found a couple schematics and bought all the stuff I need just haven't assembled it yet.

I'm not exactly an electrical engineer, but from my research, this is my plan for the controller:

I ordered a few of these chips:
The one on top. (http://69.89.31.80/~chapptro/chapp/Chapps_Chipps.htm)

I plan to build that per the schematic in the manual that includes the power supply, and use it to drive an IGBT.

Here's an example of an IGBT being used in an AC Variable frequency drive application (http://www.fairchildsemi.com/applications/motor_ctrl/). Basically, if you just take one branch from that (with the PWM circuit as the "controller"), you have what I'm going for.

What kind of controller specs are you aiming for?

With a small PWM circuit driving an IGBT, the capacity of the controller is dependant on the capacity of the IGBT, since that, and that alone is carrying the load of the motor (in theory). I ordered some 400A 1200V IGBT's on eBay. If I run two of them in parallel, I should have a capacity of 800A. The specs on the IGBT's are such that they will be able to handle the 16khz PWM frequency with no problem. And if not, they frequency is selectable with that chip. Really looks to be pretty simple. I hope it ends up being as simple in reality as it is in theory.

That MR2 project sounds very cool. I'm running megasquirt on my 1990 Audi Coupe Quattro with a turbo engine swap in it. Such an awesome little box that is.

[MetroMPG]

Have you discussed this on the EVDL? Someone got the regulars riled up recently discussing home-brew PWM controllers. Something about children building treehouses...

Definitely keep us posted here or in another thread.

[BigMouse]

Have you discussed this on the EVDL?

Nope, wasn't me. I haven't joined that list yet. I can't stand the old style mailing lists where everything gets forwarded to everybody. An online forum like this one is much preferred for me.

[MetroMPG]

Agreed - I'd much prefer a web-based EVDL.

But there are some incredibly smart, helpful & articulate people on there which make it worth following (if you can stand the volume of messages, which is another issue).

[itjstagame]

BigMouse: pregrommed PWM chips, that's cheap too. Much cheaper than me trying to figure out microprocessor programming myself... though maybe less robust.

Wow, looking through my gmail looks like it was last October since I last played with all this... I can't find any of my links either (which isn't helpful since I have a box of electrical bits based on those sites). I remember I had a couple sites, one for a converter to generate 200-300VAC and another for an inverter to output 3 phase with PWM. I was basically trying to build a variable frequency drive and use a throttle input and somehow decide what revs that should be and how much acceleration, etc. But like I said I have no idea what I'm talking about and at the time I even wanted to build my own motors in the wheels, I calculated I needed 0-16k or 0-20k rpms or so, which isn't really possible for a high HP motor.

I have too many projects....

[itjstagame]

Oh that's right, I meant to comment that another project was to put an MC1 into my '84 4000S Quattro. I already built the Megasquirt and have all the interfacing of using the MAC11b for spark hooked to the 4000 wiring but haven't done anything on it in over a year. Just out of money and time. Coupe Quattro's are awesome, I'd consider grabbing and hacking for either efficiency or electric a Coupe GT but I don't see them ever where I am. The '90 was the newer body style right? There's usually one at Rally NY every year, they're very nice.

[BigMouse]

Oh that's right, I meant to comment that another project was to put an MC1 into my '84 4000S Quattro. I already built the Megasquirt and have all the interfacing of using the MAC11b for spark hooked to the 4000 wiring but haven't done anything on it in over a year. Just out of money and time. Coupe Quattro's are awesome, I'd consider grabbing and hacking for either efficiency or electric a Coupe GT but I don't see them ever where I am. The '90 was the newer body style right? There's usually one at Rally NY every year, they're very nice.

Very cool. Glad to see another Audi nut on here. My Coupe Quattro has a 3B engine in it, Megasquirt running fuel and spark. It's not very hard to get it to do both. Get back to work on the 4k. Those cars need to be kept on the road!

Yes, my Coupe Quattro is the newer body style. I love it.

If you haven't already, sign up on the Audiworld.com forums. Should be a good source of inspiration for you.

[itjstagame]

I've been on Audiworld for quite a while. The 4k was my daily driver for 2 years or so and then started losing power so I found a 5ktq parts car for $300! But... I just didn't have the time so both Audis sit at my parents 1 hour away... I really miss it, especially anytime it rains or in winter. I've never gotten the tires to slip on pavenment, regardless of snow or rain, of course I had some nice aquatreds on it too so it really moved in the rain.

The problem is that if it had the MC1 in it I'd want to upgrade the brakes and if I'm doing that I'd like to upgrade to 5 lug so I can use my the nice rims that came on the 5ktq and if I'm doing that I should really upgrade the suspension because the body movement is absurd right now. But even with the stock under powered engine and semi sloppy suspension, it handles really awesome, though I'll admit for cornering stability nothing feels like the mk1 MR2, it's amazing. I shaved some weight and estimate I'm at 2500-2600, which for AWD is awesome (I think your coupe is about the same weight, but the 5k was like 3300lb!). The Audi will be my cure for the Turbo bug... whenever I actually finish it.

As for using the mac11b, I was told it's easier to tune gas and then remove the mac11b and try tuning spark once I've got gas pretty well dialed in. But I have an MS1 v3 with MSnS on it already and do plan to run spark eventually. Maybe if you had a base map you wanted to share... :-).

Is the 3B 2.3L? Or is it the 20v turbo version? Someday I'd like to pickup one of those up but I want to get this working for now. I still need to find an MC2 intake cam (because that adds a good amount) and a 200Q flywheel (because it's lighter and mates to the 4k tranny.

[BigMouse]

(...) Maybe if you had a base map you wanted to share... :-).

Is the 3B 2.3L? Or is it the 20v turbo version? (...)

I'd be happy to share my setup files with you. And the 3B is the 20v turbo. From a 1991 200tq.

[MetroMPG]

Spent a couple of hours tinkering today: worked on the rear batt rack.

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/albums/6909/batt-racks-rear2.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=batt-racks-rear2.jpg&album=6909)
(click, zoom)

This will hold four batts. It's positioned as far forward as possible, to try to keep the suspension level. Until this afternoon, the batts were piled (actually wedged in place with pieces of wood & empty gallon paint cans) against the rear of the hatch area, and the rear of the car was sitting lower than the front. Hopefully moving them forward and losing the cantilever effect will fix that. The rack will have them nearly in line with the rear shocks.

I was thinking of placing 2 of the 4 batts down in the spare tire well, but decided I wanted to retain that space for the tire.

Unfortunately the rack will prevent getting the tire out the usual way, so I'm thinking I'll cut out a section of the bottom of the well, and hinge it to get the wheel out from under the back of the car if needed.

[MetroMPG]

Put in some more time working on

[nathan]

If that rear seat folds forward you could put the batt rack on hinges and fold it forward as well to get at the spare tire. might be a bit heavy but how often do you need a spare anyway.

[MetroMPG]

That's a neat idea.

I'd have to get some good leverage to fold it forward though, since the rack, batts & cabling will weigh around 280 lbs together. But that's not impossible.

Another thing I'd have to check is the angle the batts need to be at to get the tire out from underneath - don't want to tip them so far that acid could leak from the caps.

[BigMouse]

That's a neat idea.

I'd have to get some good leverage to fold it forward though, since the rack, batts & cabling will weigh around 280 lbs together. But that's not impossible.

Another thing I'd have to check is the angle the batts need to be at to get the tire out from underneath - don't want to tip them so far that acid could leak from the caps.

If you put two hinges on them like this....

____
/.../

(periods are your floor, underscores are your battery tray, seatback is to the left)

Then you can move the batteries forward without tipping them at all. The leverage wouldn't have to be as much either.

Sorry for the ACSII art. I hope it makes sense.

[Silveredwings]

Cool idea, especially if counterbalanced somehow. How much cable flex can you afford though? You don't want to change your flat tire only to knock a cable loose... or worse, break a terminal.

BTW, very elegant illustration, that ASCII art.

[MetroMPG]

One of Wayland's Datsuns actually has an entire rear tray that slides in and out of the trunk area electrically.

That parallelogram hinge idea is nice. But truth be told, I'm going to stick with plan A just to keep things moving along. I already work slow enough - don't need to be re-engineering things on top of that!

[Silveredwings]

...way to fend off creature feap.

[MetroMPG]

Nice to see you back, SW. Any Healey news? :)

[MetroMPG]

No rack progress to report

[brucepick]

Sorry to be coming in late.
Did you keep the tranny or what did you do for power transmission between the engine and the wheels?

I'd be OK with a reference to an earlier post #.
TIA.

[MetroMPG]

No prob.

Kept the stock tranny...

[MetroMPG]

Well, the car isn't moving any more until I get to work on the cabling tidy-up & connector-making. I cut one of the battery cables this evening to plan my approach - and I don't have any extras.

[Bill in Houston]

And I'll still shift, because it's more efficient (I think - could be wrong).It's just GOTTA be more efficient, huh? But I don't have any ideas what revs you would be shooting for...

[MetroMPG]

I've read in several EVDL threads that around 3000 rpm is a good target for e-motor max efficiency. But the only way to know for sure is to test it. Fortunately, it's not too hard to do.

[MetroMPG]

Futzed around some with the DIY cable lug idea

[skewbe]

Hmm, you probably have a lot of those cables to make. Do they all need to be flexibe?

[MetroMPG]

One of my first thoughts was to bend up a bunch of copper tubing and make buss bars for the interconnects for the batts that are grouped close together. But the impression I get from the EVDL is that solid buss bars are failure prone / loose prone, and that steered me off that path.

[Bill in Houston]

Can you tin the cable before you put it into the lug? Might keep it from wicking up so much of the solder in the lug.

[MetroMPG]

Might be a multi-step process to let things cool down in between.

[Gary Palmer]

You might try using a damp rag around the cable, to help keep the cable from getting hot enough to wick the solder up. You should also be careful to not use any more heat than just enough to get the solder to flow at the joint of the wire and the pipe. Any more heat than that and it seems to create a oxidation on the copper which is resistant to the solder sticking.

[MetroMPG]

Gary - good ideas. Can't use the cooling rag though, since the wire has heavy insulation above where it's stripped.

[MetroMPG]

Heard back from the forklift place. $7 CAD per lug - yikes!

I found similar ones on evparts.com for $3.60 US each, however there's shipping and currency exchange on top of that.

[skewbe]

Can you solder the heck out of the end of the cable then hammer it flat and drill it? (or pre-flatten then solder then flatten and drill?)

[MetroMPG]

We have a winner! I suggested exactly that to Ivan this evening. :D

PS - Ivan wasn't too happy with my home-made lugs (I will post some pics). He rightly pointed out that while the mechanical connection may be good, the flattened end of the copper pipe was much thinner than the lugs we have. So it wouldn't have had the same current capacity. Whether it would actually have been a problem or not in our application is another question...

[MetroMPG]

DIY vs OEM...

[MetroMPG]

OK, so directly flattening / soldering / flattening the cable end

[BigMouse]

OK, so directly flattening / soldering / flattening the cable end itself is the ticket. Weekend project - I'll have the FS operational again shortly (pun not intended).

Those cables look used. Where'd you get them? 20ft of 2/0 AWG welding cable is expensive :-(

[BigMouse]

Do you know offhand how people generally route cables from one end of the vehicle to the other? I'm assuming underneath the car, in the exhaust/transmission tunnel. I was thinking we could get some plastic conduit and run it inside that for protection from the elements.


I'm not sure what the common method is, but I was thinking of doing the conduit method as well. Seems to be a safe way to pull it off. Safer than running through the car at least. I look forward to seeing the pics of your lug-less cable ends.

[MetroMPG]

Rear flattened/soldered/flattened batt interconnects turned out well and are installed. Picked up 2 lengths of plastic 1 inch ID conduit as well. Continuing to plug away this afternoon...

[trebuchet03]

Rear flattened/soldered/flattened batt interconnects turned out well and are installed. Picked up 2 lengths of plastic 1 inch ID conduit as well. Continuing to plug away this afternoon...

Conduit is probably better than what I was going to suggest :p

Large garden hose :thumbup: It's flexible and you know it's water tight :thumbup:

[MetroMPG]

Ooooh. Garden hose is a good idea if you're using 2/0 gauge. It would be a little more saggy than the conduit, but you could work around that.

[skewbe]

Duh, I was worried about the exhaust pipe when you mentioned conduit under the car. LOL :)

Cool Cables, lets hope they don't melt :)

[MetroMPG]

I know... I kept firing up the torches at the back of the car this afternoon, and every time I did I thought, "wait! gas fumes!" :)

I don't think the cables will melt. Unless I really misunderstand what's going on, the 4/0 is WAAY overkill. The internal wiring inside the motor itself is more like 2/0 size. That's what I'm more concerned about melting...

In further "misunderstanding what's going on" news, today was the first time since the start of the project I mistakenly shorted out pack voltage. Freshly charged, too. !!!ZORCH!!! I vapourized the end of a 2/0 lug. :O

[lemmiwinks]

That soldered cable end that turns into a lug is fantastic! Really, really good. Could you post up a tutorial so we don't all have to go through the learning curve please? :)

[BigMouse]

(...) Could you post up a tutorial so we don't all have to go through the learning curve please? :)

I second this request!

[MetroMPG]

Will do. I'll take some pics of the process when I make another one, sometime this week.

[Fourthbean]

I didn't realize how expensive that cabling and lugs could be. I have 10 1ft lengths of 2/0 welding cable that was in the garage I got from a garage sale. I will have to see if I can list and sell them for a bit of extra cash :).

When you say vapourized the end of the lug, did it actually go away? That's some impressive power, glad you weren't hurt.

[DaX]

Looking good Darin - I'm really impressed with the way you made terminal lugs. :)

[MetroMPG]

Thanks DaX.

Field tested the new cables/lugs today.

[SVOboy]

Should I ask for range/speed predictions?

[MetroMPG]

We've already got a pretty good idea: around

[2TonJellyBean]

Why do I get the feeling that you'll throw a portable gas-powered electrical generator on it just to see how many MPG you can get that way?

Petrol-powered would sound so much better. We fill up most of our cars with a liquid we call gas. Ouch we must sound bad to foreigners.

[SVOboy]

Even on the new batteries you got from that pick up truck fella?

[MetroMPG]

2ton: I was snooping around generator websites just the other day.. :D But no serious plans.

Ben: yup, that's on our "good" batteries. Keep in mind he had already used them daily for 2 [edit - actually 3] years, and was essentially ready to recycle them.

[MetroMPG]

Also, using 5.25 as the lower limit effectively extends the car's range. Time for another range test!

[MetroMPG]

Time for another range test!

OK, just rolled in with

[SVOboy]

Nice job! You should make battery recycling into a business!

[MetroMPG]

Well, I thought about it, but apparently copper recycling is more profitable.

I've read several stories lately about thieves stealing copper. In Halifax harbour, someone cut up an 11 km long copper cable from a dock crane that will cost $100,000 to replace. They were only able to actually make off with about half of it though. Crazy.

[SVOboy]

Yes, I've seen stuff like that online, that's it's big and all.

Last year when I worked at the shop the new guy would always talk about how people would steal the rain gutters and things for aluminum scrap. Crazy times.

[MetroMPG]

And that bungee cord connected to the top battery rack? It's holding up the forward end of the electrical conduit I put under the car on the weekend. Now that we know where the controller is going to be, it can be cut off at the proper length to run the cables where they need to go.

[SVOboy]

When's the date with the registration peeps?

[MetroMPG]

It would be nice to have it on the road (legally)

[SVOboy]

You're only about a year behind schedule then! Good job, governor.

[MetroMPG]

http://re3.mm-a7.yimg.com/image/3799019197

?

[Silveredwings]

http://re3.mm-a7.yimg.com/image/3799019197

?

I think you've found it (it cuts to the quick). ;)

[skewbe]

will 200 amps do? $16 currently
http://i18.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/9e/a8/37f1_1.JPG
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cutler-Hammer-2-Pole-100-Amp-Circuit-Breaker-Mdl-CH2100_W0QQitemZ150158557178QQihZ005QQcategoryZ104 232QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[BigMouse]

will 200 amps do? $16 currently
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cutler-Hammer-2-Pole-100-Amp-Circuit-Breaker-Mdl-CH2100_W0QQitemZ150158557178QQihZ005QQcategoryZ104 232QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Will an AC circuit breaker work for DC? There is 300A worth of service disconnect breakers at my local goodwill for $2 ea. Didn't buy them because I wasn't sure they'd work for DC.

[MetroMPG]

I honestly don't know.

I just read this yesterday, but can't comment on it:

DC and AC contacting stuff is radically different and shouldn’t be inter-changed!But then again, wouldn't a knife switch work on either AC or DC? It's just a simple switch. It would seem to me it's all about the current rating, and that's where you need to be careful. You probably can't apply AC ratings to a DC circuit.

[skewbe]

I don't see a problem using an AC switch in a DC circuit (though not the other way around).

The AC switch has to be over-engineered somewhat because it will see higher voltages. The 110v rating is actually the RMS rating (area under the curve basically), the AC voltage is actually a sinewave that goes all the way up to 170 volts (and higher peak current also).


If you had 110v dc and 110v ac (rms) and hooked them up to a heater coil, they would both produce the same amount of heat.

So, unless we find something that says there is more mojo to it, it *should* work fine.

[skewbe]

Apparently mr sharkey indicates greater arcing potential in DC (though AC is even better at arcing?!?)
http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/electrics/chapt9.htm

But you are at 48 volts, and this breaker regularly sees 170 volts. And you wanted cheap ;)

[BigMouse]

I honestly don't know.

I just read this yesterday, but can't comment on it:

But then again, wouldn't a knife switch work on either AC or DC? It's just a simple switch. It would seem to me it's all about the current rating, and that's where you need to be careful. You probably can't apply AC ratings to a DC circuit.

Hmm, I remember from A&P school that DC switches have to have a higher rating than an AC switch because of the arc caused by turning it on or off. AC is able to sustain an arc, but a DC arc does more damage. This is why TIG welders have an high frequency AC 'starter' circuit, then once an arc is established, it switches over to the high-current DC.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you made your terminal ends. I'm getting to the point where I will need some, and I'm planning on using your method.

[MetroMPG]

Turns out there's a discussion about this on the EVDL this week. The issue is DC arcing, and one of the old hands says:


A AC breaker at the same voltage of the DC source, does not have the larger
contact pads and spacing as a DC breaker. The spacing is contacts spacing
is wider in a DC breaker, so when a DC breaker is activated, there will be
less arc over.He recommends going 3x over the AC rating for DC use:

A circuit
breaker design for 3 hp load on AC is only good for 1 hp on DC. So it about
a 3 to 1 factor.http://www.nabble.com/Clearing-the-air-%28gap%29%2C-breaker-theory-question-tf4432711s25542.html#a12646307

Mouse: I'll post a description of the lug making process soon, and come back and add pics later. I haven't made any new ends since last weekend. This weekend will probably be spent figuring out how to mount contactors etc.

I did sneak out and replace my fried potentiometer today though. :)

[MetroMPG]

While tinkering on the potbox today, I got to thinking about the various sources for recycled parts used in the car so far.

[MetroMPG]

Quick cable end-making tutorial for lemmiwinks, Bigmouse... I'll add pics when I make my next batch of ends.

[MetroMPG]

Added a few pics to the cable end DIY, above.

Made a few more cables this weekend, and noted that the forklift cables we have used so far are all 3/0, not 4/0 as previously thought. The lugs all say 4/0 on them (the source of my confusion), but the cable itself is 3/0.

[MetroMPG]

Also, I made a cable end lug with coarser strand 3/0. It didn't turn out quite as well as the fine strand stuff - more prone to cracking when flattening/drilling as I suspected it would be. But it worked OK.

[BigMouse]

Also, I made a cable end lug with coarser strand 3/0. It didn't turn out quite as well as the fine strand stuff - more prone to cracking when flattening/drilling as I suspected it would be. But it worked OK.

I ordered myself 30 feet of 3/0 welding cable (fine stranded stuff). Hopefully I'll get enough area out of the end to drill the 1/2" holes for the lugs on the motor. I may just have to splurge on the the 6 or so cable ends I'll need. NiCad battery cells use solid interconnects, not cables, so I won't have all that many to do. Good info though!

[MetroMPG]

You should be able to get the area for 1/2 in. holes. It's up to you really - how much you flatten the end before/after dipping it in the "solder pot".

How much voltage have you collected so far?

[MetroMPG]

Added a refinement to the end-making DIY:

You don't have to pre-fill the solder pot/crucible. You can just feed solder into the side of the cable at the neck. It's heavy - it'll run down the strands as well as up.

[Silveredwings]

For someone with a lot more voltage & power in their pack, it's a problem.
Like a KillaSwift (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pM1j2d1RMU)? :eek:

[MetroMPG]

Yep! 'Cept that wasn't controller failure, that was full-on wetware failure! :)

Fortunately, neither he nor the bike (nor the minivan) were really hurt.

[trebuchet03]

The reason for the pedal-actuated contactor is: in case of controller failure, the driver's first instinct is to release the go pedal, theoretically cutting power pretty much instantly (assuming it doesn't weld). If we omit it, then a split second is lost, before jamming down the clutch pedal to mechanically shut things down.

Is this a problem? I've done a bit of EV reading (likely not as much as you) and I haven't come across a "WOT" controller failure (yet).

So theoretically, turning the ignition off (in this worst case scenario controller failure) would do the same thing on an ignition based contactor. I know, split second reaction time lost....

So is it really a problem?

[BigMouse]

You should be able to get the area for 1/2 in. holes. It's up to you really - how much you flatten the end before/after dipping it in the "solder pot".

How much voltage have you collected so far?

I'm up to about 68 volts worth. About half way there :-)

[MetroMPG]

Is this a problem? I've done a bit of EV reading (likely not as much as you) and I haven't come across a "WOT" controller failure (yet).

You know, in the year and a half I've been following the EVDL, 2 Cursit failure stories jump to mind (there are undoubtedly more) - and they were "fully closed throttle" failures.

I haven't actually read about a WOT controller failure, though I'm sure if you ask on the EVDL, you'll get some.

Still, everyone insists controllers will fail fully on, and they're basically ticking time bombs...

[MetroMPG]

Note re. controller failures: DC controllers may fail ON. Apparently this is one of the other benefits of AC, which fail OFF.

---

Clack, clack, clack! I hooked up a second, identical contactor, this one not bolted to the unibody, and it's much more reasonable in terms of noisyness. Still louder than nothing, but nowhere near the volume of the shock tower mounted one ... probably acceptable.

So it looks OK if we can soft mount the pack +ve contactor and run it off the low pedal potbox microswitch. I'll probably still try to insulate it to keep it as quiet as possible...