Electric conversion: Project ForkenSwiift

[MetroMPG]

[edit:

[Matt Timion]

I'll move this to the electric forum.

If you want we can start fishing for people on the internet to come here and maybe help us figure some stuff out. I would be interested in doing this conversion too. There is a n600 available in SEattle I might want to get for this conversion.

[Matt Timion]

If at all possible please report back here with anything you find. The more I Think about it the more I want to get this going with another small honda (n600 would be cool). This would be a great project for next year, or maybe this summer if I'm up to it.

[Matt Timion]

A friend of mine in high school made his own EV. It only had a 20 mile range, so it was only used to go to school and back. I would personally love a 100 mile range, but it isn't really needed. I guess 50 would be fine too. I could go pretty darn far with 50 miles.

Depending on the cost, however, I wouldn't be opposed to getting the more expensive batteries.

100 lbs of batteries isn't that much. Remember this guY?

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/325.html

By subtracting the stock weight of the car, he has around 700 lbs of batteries. My understanding is this is normal for EVs.

Another reason to go with the lighter batteries is that they have faster recharge times, longer lives, and will reduce the weight of the car (which also means more miles). The downside however is the price.

[MetroMPG]

A friend of mine in high school made his own EV. It only had a 20 mile range, so it was only used to go to school and back.

you remember any of the details? i'd like to hear about it. tell us a story, matt.

[Matt Timion]

I think if I did this I would get a metro. They are very abundant and cheap to buy.

I am curious however about a few things, one of which I'll address right now.

Can you explain to me how the gearbox works with an electric motor? You don't need the flywheel, but you DO need the clutch disc, right? I'm assuming the same about the pressure plate. You said before that some people don't keep their clutch. How is that possible?

Can you point me towards any references that might help me understand this?

[MetroMPG]

A friend of mine in high school made his own EV. It only had a 20 mile range, so it was only used to go to school and back.

details, matt. details!

[SVOboy]

Damn, this is all very interesting. Are there any parts you haven't sourced or wanna source more cheaply? I have a knack for getting stuff free or close to it.

[MetroMPG]

i haven't really sourced anything. i just made a shopping list, and went around various sites getting new/used estima

[Matt Timion]

A friend of mine in high school made his own EV. It only had a 20 mile range, so it was only used to go to school and back.

details, matt. details!


I just did an internet search and here is what I found about him:

Bio: I bought my 1984 Fiero 2m4 sport coupe in January 1992.

Purchased as a salvaged car with a thrashed 2.5, the previous owner had smashed the front end in a collision and made a mess of the wiring. When I found it, the owner's front lawn had grown into the engine compartment. The car was one of the first Fieros for roll off the line, and has power windows and locks, as well as the optional spoke aluminum wheels. Over the next two years I worked to convert the car to electric power as well as restoring it to a decent condition.
I used an Advanced DC 63 hp electric motor, and a Curtis 1231C 500 amp
controller. The batteries are made by US battery there are 10 6-volt
batteries in the back (trunk and engine compartment) and 5 12-volt batteries in the front where the spare tire once was. The battery trays are fit into the frame of the car on welded-in brackets. I also installed a 5-speed manual transaxle off of an '85 Fiero.

I began driving my custom made electric fiero last spring. Normally I get 40 to 45 miles on a charge, and the acceleration is not as shabby as some would expect from an electric car. Time for a full charge on the K&W charge unit is 8 hours (over night), running on household 120vac current. I had a custom paint job done, metallic blue, and a Pioneer AM/FM cass. stereo put in. Thecar has been written up in the LA times, featured on OCN (Orange county newschannel), and will appear next issue in Fiero Owner magazine.

This was back in 1996, so I'm certain the technology is much better by now.

[SVOboy]

85 crx hf = 1713, also.

[Matt Timion]

I'm actually considering using a metro if I actually do an EV conversion. Metros are just so abundant, lightweight, and have been used many many times before.

Check out all of the EVs here:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/

[SVOboy]

Are there any of those online insurance companies that have good rates but ****ty service in canada? esurance.com comes to mind for me.

[SVOboy]

The deductable might me more than the value of the car, don't you think? It'll prolly get totalled from a fender bender (as would my car), so meh.

[SVOboy]

Doooooo eeeet, it's so cute.

100 CDN or USD?

[SVOboy]

Holy EF, I'll buy it.

[MetroMPG]

this swift is the 1.3 4-cyl, though, not the 1.0 3-pot. what would you want with a fuel hog like that?

ps - there are lots of these $100-500 near death units around if you really want one. the swift/metros were as popular in their day as the aveo now is in its class.

[SVOboy]

I don't see them for sale in NJ though, so I'm just amazed. I'd buy one for 50 USD to just do something really neat with it.

[SVOboy]

Yeah, all of them I see for sale are like 2k around here, I'll have to keep my eye out for some beat up stuff.

[JanGeo]

Man that is exactly where mine rusted out too - the right side. Damn that is just too scary - my personal injury lawyer friend was saying too bad I didn't get injured he could have sued the manufacturer BIG TIME. Frames are not supposed to rust out like that especially at a critical suspension point.

[JanGeo]

Just so you know I built a scooter with 67lbs of lead Hawker batteries and a frame about 48lbs added to that is my weight and you get about 300lbs and I can go about 25 miles on a charge 36 volts 25 amp hours. This is with a 92%+ efficiency motor. The Advanced DC motors are in the 70% and lower sometimes depending upon RPM and current - it amazes me how poor they are yet everyone uses them. I have to wonder when I putt around town in my Geo just how much HP I am generating in the motor at really low rpms - I shift into 5th at 25mph.... You could probably run around town a lot in first gear with a 6000 rpm motor and have plenty of torque - will have to plug the numbers into my spread sheet sometime and see what I get.

[MetroMPG]

what motor are you using?

my friend and i considered the idea of doing mopeds or motorcycles, but it came down to wanting something that could be used in all weather with an additional passenger, and which is also street legal. which means metro EV.

[JanGeo]

www.eCycle.com MG13 but you should consider some of the newer motors they are building maybe a solid slot double stack and a 400 amp controller with your lower voltage and bigger batteries. It's always tricky when dealing with higher power levels but they have the efficiency way up so you don't have to deal with a lot of cooling. If you wanted something smaller then stick with two or three wheels and keep it clasified as a motorcycle then enclose it in a full body.

[JanGeo]

Yup they are pricy but you can pay now or push your electric car later when you run out of energy . . . They are going to be really light if that is a factor plus they freewheel / spin pretty well with the controller turned off but it depends upon the controller driving it. Don't forget that they are brushless and have no cooling holes for air to carry dirt into the motor and the water cooling option could provide you with some cabin heat. It also makes a great generator so depending upon how you regulate the power to the motor input would determine power/loading. Typically the switching buck-boost stage driving the motor input has fets pulling up to the battery voltage and down to ground at some duty cycle determined by the throttle and current limiting. Now if you can get it to just pull up to the battery voltage you would have a "freewheel" drive effect and if you have it pull down you would have a braking/regen effect. Of course you could always just pop it into neutral. One thing you would want is a smart motor speed controller so that you could monitor the transmission input shaft speed and regulate the motor speed to match when shifting into gears - maybe a button on the top of the shifter that you press which would make the motor run at the speed that the transmission is in and allow you to pop it out of gear with no loading and then speed up or slow down to motor as you move it towards the next gear to allow it to shift right into gear without grinding and thus not require a clutch.

[Matt Timion]

some good news: persistence on the phone paid off with a local forklift service company. i finally talked to one of their service technicians who says they have a complete 48V used forklift that they'll sell for $500. this would be a great source for not only the motor (10hp continuous series wound), but for switches, fuses, contactor, controller, potbox, gauges...

That is awesome news. Does it have a controller as well? I imagine this would give you everything you need, including some batteries.

[SVOboy]

If he's 450km south I might want it, :)

[JanGeo]

Yeah they are made heavy to lift and not tip over - consider driving it to where it has to go or towing it there. Do you have AAA up there or maybe the back end of a Tractor Trailer. Sounds like NOT the way to go for parts - they are all designed to be heavy not efficient for car vehicle use.

Those electric cars sound interesting - if RI ever passed the NEV law they could be used around town here. I would consider converting one over to one of my more efficient motors and then maybe a different Li-Ion battery pack and really make it go. When they first rented something simular to them in town many years ago they went for $20,000 each.

[Sludgy]

This site has some great information regarding low speed electric vehicles, motor vehicle laws and technology. AC motors and inverters are coming soon to electric vehicles near you.

http://www.golfcarcatalog.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=check_this_archive&step=3&archive_id=112

[MetroMPG]

yeah - ac would be good - more efficient.

AC is not for the faint of heart or for the frugal owner.

but that second point rules me out on this project!

[Compaq888]

<img src="http://img.shopping.com/cctool/PrdImg/images/pr/177X150/00/01/4a/61/82/21651842.JPG" align="right">

found another beater: 91 firefly 4 door. red. owner says it runs and only needs brakes to pass safety. i suspect it needs more than that since it's been parked for more than a year.

the suspension mounts are OK, but there's a hole in the floor.

i offered $100, she countered with $200. i said i'd get back to her.

the 4 door weighs a little more - just shy of 1700 lbs.

God damn that is some cheap *** cars. You and SVOboy should work together. You get cars for cheap and he gets parts for cheap. You guys need to open a used dealership together.

[JanGeo]

Hey I have a 4 door too! Definately more useful for hauling stuff but didn't think the weight was that much different.

[kickflipjr]

<img src="http://img.shopping.com/cctool/PrdImg/images/pr/177X150/00/01/4a/61/82/21651842.JPG" align="right">

found another beater: 91 firefly 4 door. red. owner says it runs and only needs brakes to pass safety. i suspect it needs more than that since it's been parked for more than a year.

the suspension mounts are OK, but there's a hole in the floor.

i offered $100, she countered with $200. i said i'd get back to her.

the 4 door weighs a little more - just shy of 1700 lbs.

God damn that is some cheap *** cars. You and SVOboy should work together. You get cars for cheap and he gets parts for cheap. You guys need to open a used dealership together.


Hey I am the one driving a $170 car!

That is a good price metrompg

[MetroMPG]

you're really driving a $170 car? all in? wow.

none of these cars i've been looking at would be legal for $170 all in.

[kickflipjr]

Yep the $170 car was semi-drivable. It needed struts bad. No radio. non-working ac. leaking sunroof...

[JanGeo]

I may be doing it myself on my Geo also - Mig welder. Fortunately I have a good friend that will teach me. I also found out that the dealer registered my new xB for only 10 months . . . so by then I may give up on the Geo and get my original plates transferred to the xB.

[MetroMPG]

yeah, my brother knows how to weld, so he'll probably show me. and my partner in crime's brother has a welder. not sure what type though.

i've been buzzing around my neighbourhood in the swift. i actually like driving it more than my pontiac. even though in every objective sense the pontiac is a better car, the swift just feels more nimble. probably it's just the novelty of it.

[SVOboy]

Junkyard for old golf carts, I might think. I've seen a few in mine for sure.

[MetroMPG]

junkyard is a good idea. someone on another ev list suggested regular 12v starting batteries from a junkyard will also work.

on another note, stopped by my mechanic at lunch time and he gave me the green light: if the control arm mount is properly welded, it's OK for the safety certificate (other issues notwithstanding).

then i swung by the local dump and drove onto the scale. they guy said the car's weight is 782 kg / 1724 lbs.

[SVOboy]

Damn, that's pretty heavy for that little thing. Got some bodies in the back or something?

[MetroMPG]

might be the weight of the gigantic FOUR cylinder engine in the front. four ostentatious cylinders! shameless excess.

maybe that's why i'm liking driving it. it's practically a ferrari compared to the fireflea.

[Matt Timion]

I still say you part it out and make like 500% profit, but that's just because I've had some good luck with Ebay lately.

[krousdb]

might be the weight of the gigantic FOUR cylinder engine in the front. four ostentatious cylinders! shameless excess.

maybe that's why i'm liking driving it. it's practically a ferrari compared to the fireflea.

Shame indeed! All of those wasted ponies festering under your hood! Whats next? You gonna buy a Hummer? :-)

[MetroMPG]

oh, to live in pennsylvania.

there's a 1980 comutacar on ebay with 88 original miles. needs partial restoration and batteries, but still...

ebay link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4619524001&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT#ebayphotohosting)

http://i14.ebayimg.com/05/i/06/73/a4/17_0.JPG

--

on an unrelated note, i got the alarm working in the swift. now nobody will steal it. hilarious.

[JanGeo]

Hey I was looking at my Geo today with a guy that may be welding it for me - the left side looked pretty rusty too. Damn thing started right up after a couple of weeks of sitting. Looks like that wheel is back too far just like mine is right now.

[SVOboy]

How much was the delivery charge again? That thing looks pretty badass, you should put a manequin in it and scare people driving by at night.

[Matt Timion]

delivery was $125. we haven't decided if we'll have to have the trucking co. come back for the chassis to take it to the recycler, or whether we'll tow it ourselves (a friend has a 4wd hemi ram). the recycler is about 3 km from the house (2 mi.) we'll get about $200 for the scrap metal.

I'd also check ebay. YOu might be able to sell a few of the knick-knacks on that thing.

I'm jealous :(

[JanGeo]

Kind of makes you think about the fork lift driving into a bunch of boxes in a movie - more likely it continues through the boxes and through the wall and the wall after that too! Imagine driving that thing on the road and hitting something - BAM! Hey keep the lift and use it to raise cars to work under them!! Easy way to do a belly pan!

[MetroMPG]

you know, looking at that thing has me thinking similar thoughts. except more like: man, how flimsy our little cars are!

definitely easy to do a belly pan with this. i wish we could somehow use it to lift *itself* up so get at the motors. they have to come out from underneath. the technician says that's how they take them out at work - use another truck to lift up the back end and then block it. my buddy is tracking down some heavy duty jacks tomorrow. i'm going to start tracing wires to figure out how it's put together.

[JanGeo]

ramps - drive it up some ramps on a stack of boards or bricks - if you have down force on the forks then press down on a stack of bricks/blocks to lift the body up.

[SVOboy]

CT eh? You think it'll get picked up quickly?

[Matt Timion]

irony of the week: took delivery of the forklift on wednesday.

thursday: geo metro conversion offered on the EV discussion list (EVDL) - for FREE to whoever comes and picks it up (in connecticut). needs batteries and cosmetic work (had been vandalized - windows, dents).

I'd find a way to get it if I were you. YOu can still break even on the forklift, and even make a profit on the other metro.

But then there is the issue of getting it from CT. how far is it from you?

Then again, taking a free one would definately not help with the "learning" issue. Maybe you can get someone to pull all of the parts and ship them to you.

[MetroMPG]

ct is probably 10-12 hrs away from here.

but the free metro ev was claimed within an hour of that post going up.

we will stay the course! onwards to frankenswift! suzukistein!

[JanGeo]

The Scion 1500cc motor dressed is 187 lbs all aluminum and plastic.

The Geo stock motor is probably in the 150 lbs range I would guess - it is really small. The major weight in a motor is the crank.

[SVOboy]

My engine with tranny with fluids would weigh about 180 I'd say. I can pick it up by myself but of course I hurt myself in the process. I did it the other day, :p

[JanGeo]

Yeah - but maybe you end up with a very efficient motor . . . then again I have a 8 HP electric brushless that weighs 15 lbs. and the 16 HP version only weighs about 22 lbs. with efficiency over 92%

[MetroMPG]

jangeo, does size of a brushed motor relate directly to efficiency?

i understand that motor heat is a symptom of inefficiency, and a large motor like this is much less succeptible to overheating.

but is its low heating a result of some inherently more efficient design, or because it's just a better heat sink?

[JanGeo]

Usually the bigger the motor the more core material there is which supports the magnetic fields needed. The real indicator of efficency is the amount of copper in the motor - the heavier the wire the more efficient it will be. The extra mass helps with cooling but the real indicator is how much air flow it needs - if completely sealed then it is better - the more air slots the poorer the design as it will tend to get hot and needs a lot of cooling if run at high power levels. There is also peak load as in lifting in a fork lift and moving plus it is not getting any high speed air moving under the hood and it may be inside in a hot warehouse. So I don't think you will have cooling issues - you can probably push the power way up in this motor too for short durations. Hopefully the brushes are ok too!

[rh77]

"diesel and locomotive cable". how cool will that look under the hood of a suzuki swift.

I just had a recurring idea. I grew up around locomotives with my father being an engineer. Long story short, I got to know how they worked from the time I was like 3 years old.

For those who don't know, it's an interesting process, which has worked well for over 50 years. The "Prime Mover" is the big Diesel engine that you hear rumbling. This engine ranges in number of cylinders 12-16, and the pistons are larger than you or I. Redline is around 500 RPM.

The Diesel engine turns a huge generator, which produces a schload of electricity. The electric power from the generator goes to the "Traction Motors", which is what moves the locomotive (some have 4, some 6). When slowing or going down a large hill, instead of burning up the brakes or losing air, many loco models have what's called "Dynamic Braking". The traction motor's polarity is reversed, and turned into generators. The resistance slows the train and sends the electricity to huge capacitors where the juice is lost in heat dissipation.

I've thought many times how this would work to power a car. Could a small engine and generator, in team with some batteries, use the same concept to make a car that's FE? The purpose of the batteries could be used to get the vehicle going, then the engine kicks in to get the power flowing to recharge the batteries and power the traction motor on the vehicle. In addition, regenerative/dynamic braking could charge the batteries. The question would be whether the generator and small engine would weigh more than the additional batteries on an electric-only setup. The range would definitely increase, as would the speed (depending on your electric motor). A plug-in system could re-charge the batts overnight. Almost like a hybrid, but perhaps more efficient.

Sorry to beat on GM again, but half locomotives out there are made by a division of GM, and the other half by GE. GM has the technology -- modify it into cars!

RH77

[Matt Timion]

If you want to guess it's weight, do this:

While holding it, stand on a scale. Then stand on the scale without it and subtract the difference.

What? You can't hold 400lbs? Pansy!

http://danacarveylvr.1colony.com/images/hansnfranz.jpg

<--goofy mood.

[SVOboy]

The "Prime Mover" is the big Diesel engine that you hear rumbling.

Nice aristotle joke there, bud.

[rh77]

The "Prime Mover" is the big Diesel engine that you hear rumbling.

Nice aristotle joke there, bud.

Well smarty pants, that's actually what the industry calls it. So, did you get anything else out of the post???

RH77

[SVOboy]

So, did you get anything else out of the post???

I did sir, I was just to busy with my ****ed up car and my mountains of homework to say something intelligent about it.

[rh77]

I did sir, I was just to busy with my ****ed up car and my mountains of homework to say something intelligent about it.

I'm just bustin' your chops. I'm actually trying to multitask with work reports and this darn addictive site as well :-) No need for Sir, I haven't been Knighted by the Queen of England yet. But thanks anyways. Just call me...

RH77

[SVOboy]

I think sir is a very gallant name, and I will use it for all eternity. I wonder when I'll get my homework done...

[rh77]

I think sir is a very gallant name, and I will use it for all eternity. I wonder when I'll get my homework done...

Well then, Sir, I agree, and I thank you for your gallantry (if that's even a word. If it isn't, it is now). I'm getting nothing done either. ;-) I mean, you work all day, or you take classes all day, in the evening, sometimes you just want to indulge in a hobby like gassavers and the History channel. I'm stuck at a Hotel as usual, so my options are limited. Like I'm going to work out at the fitness center -- I won't have connectivity! I could take the Aveo LS for a spin in Little Rock, Arkansas (yay). Finally I got a bargain-basement rental complete with crank windows and manual locks. New cars are just getting too big. This "small car" seems big enough to me. But more on that when I get the time to write my review on it. I still have a few in the queue to enter...

RH77

[JanGeo]

I've thought many times how this would work to power a car.

FORGETABOUTIT - the losses in a car would cost you too much mpg - a loco needs it to do it that way because it can not make gears and a clutch big enough to move that kind of load with direct drive. They spend a lot of $$ on making the motors cheeper and more efficient and have the space to play with and the need for extra weight.

Best config is a parallel hybrid so that either ice or electric or both can move the car.

[rh77]

FORGETABOUTIT - the losses in a car would cost you too much mpg - a loco needs it to do it that way because it can not make gears and a clutch big enough to move that kind of load with direct drive. They spend a lot of $$ on making the motors cheeper and more efficient and have the space to play with and the need for extra weight.

Best config is a parallel hybrid so that either ice or electric or both can move the car.

I considered that. I asked this question about 20 years ago, of course with the answer that we have plenty of oil, why change the current powertrain design.

I agree with you on a few points, but also have some rebuttal. It's true that a loco doesn't have a series of gears: some are geared for high-speed, some are for raw power, low-speed, and in-between, etc. But with the absence of a transmission in a vehicle, that's additional weight savings. A parallel engine/motor idea is pretty efficient, but my goal is weight reduction. With Metro's setup, many heavy batteries may be required to store a decent charge to get around. I'm not saying to stick a 0.7L Diesel hooked to a separate generator, but an all-in-one design like a larger household generator -- those little things can power a house. It's only a theory, and I'm sure the current draw would bog it down, but it's an idea. The forklift motor itself looks pretty darn heavy by itself.

RH77

P.S. Say Hi to my In-Laws -- they're staying in Newport and visiting family in Bristol.

[JanGeo]

Try to find a small high efficiency ICE - that is the problem - the 2.5HP honda motor I have (Yeah I own a honda!) is only rated at 25% efficiency. Been through this with some experts that know electric motor and fuel engines - even thought of converting to propane. The best setup is a small motor and battery to drive the vehicle when moving already and the small and efficient motor to power the car under other driving conditions. Any other combination requires too much weight for the electic parts. Another recent post about an AIR powered hybrid was very interesting - the engineer changed the valve to electric hydralic and could shut off fuel to the cylinders and have them compress and run on air but only because they had complete computer control of the valve timing.

[rh77]

Another recent post about an AIR powered...

Hey, I made one of those in high school! Yes, I am and was a science nerd. For a competition we ran a small dune-buggy sized vehicle on compressed air. The "transmission" was an impact wrench hooked to a few compressed air tanks and welded to a low-resistance bicycle wheel. After it got going, it really started to take off, until we ran out of air :-( It had to be hydraulic as well, so we pumped our way around with pressurized transmission fluid. We're lucky that nothing blew up. Anyways, off-topic stuff.

Metro- any updates? Kind of excited to see this come together. The motor sounds like a ball-buster, though. Could you raise it up from under the car to it's mounts, using a jack or platform/jack?

RH77

[rh77]

rh77 - good train post. the house is not far from a shunting yard, and i used to cross the tracks (illegally - but never got busted.. or busted up) when i worked at a nortel factory on the other side of the tracks.

the yard engines are icons of corporate wastefulness: they NEVER turn them off, from november through march. they idle continuously all winter. i suppose they're hard to start when cold, but thats' ridiculous.

as for why GM doesn't apply their train know-how to road vehicles? they actually are: Ten GM Diesel Hybrid Buses to Oahu

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/10/ten_gm_diesel_h.html

gm's hybrid strategy is interesting to say the least: focusing on the most "wasteful" vehicles first. there is some logic in it (more fuel is saved by improving a bus' mpg from 4 to 5 mpg, than a subcompacts' mpg from 40 to 50.) but it's not helping their green image.

You know, I do recall seeing that on "MotorWeek" TV. They're also working on vehicles like FedEx delivery trucks. On the GM-Allison test track they had the vehicle stopped, got up to about 10 mph on the electric motor, then the Diesel engine would start, ramp-up, and take-over automatically. We all know that from a standing stop, a huge amount of particulates are belched out of a Diesel truck. That was the focus. The question still remains (maybe I should research this first) but is a CNG bus less pollutive (another word that I probably made up -- I'm sticking with it). At any rate, I'm probably hard on GM because I was forced to buy one as my first car and after 4 senseless failures, I went down the Honda road and never looked back. In Northeastern Ohio, you get bad-mouthed for buying a "foreign" car, with all of the GM and Ford assembly plants around there. And of course we all knew someone who worked for them, so you had to buy one. I was fed up during college when my second Beretta started mixing the oil and coolant due to a blown head gasket. In a heated rage I dumped the Chevy and bought a Barebones Civic DX. The whole family gasped in horror! "Yeah, but it's made in Marysville, Ohio". That was the saving grace. Then when I bought my Evo, my Dad was like, "you know Mitsubishi made planes for the Japanese during World War II" -- mostly razzing me. Some generations just don't give up on International grudges. But for me, GM has rubbed me the wrong way in my generation four times, so I'm bitter. The 4 Honda/Acuras that we've had -- best investment. They've earned my trust.

Anyways, on my Dad's railroad, they shut down the locos at night -- in the Winter they plugged them into a 220V outlet to maintain heat for a slick start. I'm guessing the yard near your house has small "switch" engines, which are hard to start unless plugged-in. Another thing to consider is that they may operate them 24/7 by continuously putting trains together for the open "road", and idle between shifts or during lunchtime. The railroad is a strange employer. Time of day doesn't matter much when you work, and your shift could really vary. If they didn't have a 3rd shift and let them idle all night, that's just, well, not a good idea.

Thanks for the thumbs-up on the post...it's been a while ;-) Honestly I had it coming on some of those as I look back on them.

Anyways, do you know if it's possible to export a vehicle to the 'States? I really wan't an Acura 1.7EL or CSX.

RH77

[MetroMPG]

Anyways, do you know if it's possible to export a vehicle to the 'States? I really wan't an Acura 1.7EL or CSX.

i know from my own research it's much easier to get one from the U.S. into canada than the other way around.

don't hold me to this, but i think if the model is not available in the US market, you can't import it until it's 25 years old. in canada, the rule is 15 years.

[rh77]

Anyways, do you know if it's possible to export a vehicle to the 'States? I really wan't an Acura 1.7EL or CSX.

i know from my own research it's much easier to get one from the U.S. into canada than the other way around.

don't hold me to this, but i think if the model is not available in the US market, you can't import it until it's 25 years old. in canada, the rule is 15 years.

Freakin' Buggah.
Wicked Pissah.
Crapola.
Shoot.

Anyways congrats on your drive motor! And with the cigars, there's no embargo on Cuba up there, so send us some good stuff ;-)

RH77

[JanGeo]

the yard engines are icons of corporate wastefulness: they NEVER turn them off,

Price of fuel to idle them vs getting them stuck on a track and not start, very cold to be in one when cold, wear and tear on a massive motor like that getting cold and then trying to start it may easily be offset by a few hundred gallons of fuel for the winter.

[MetroMPG]

true, jangeo, but we just had the warmest winter *on record*, and still these things were idling away... likely out of habit more than necessity, i would say.

[JanGeo]

wonder what the rate of fuel use is for an engine that size idling . . .

[MetroMPG]

not sure. it's harder to figure out for a diesel since they don't rely on stoich to run, right?

[rh77]

arrivederci amigo! thanks for not crushing me!

I'm tearing-up man. That Baker was (sniffle) such an inspiration.

Seriously, great turn-around on the sale of the scrap unit and not getting squashed in the process. What's next?

RH77

[The Toecutter]

One question, what voltage/current is the EV1 controller rated at?

I'll read through the rest of this topic(and respond with some suggestions) when I get the time. I've been to yuor site many months ago and frequently stop by to see what is written, so I'm sure you know the effect extensive aero mods will have on your range and performance. Make use of them! They are key to 100+ miles range on cheap lead acid batteries.

I'm currently converting my Triumph GT6+ to electric, starting on the cheap(~$2,000, 65 mph top speed, 50 miles range), but will eventually upgrade to make it a high performance car(~$12,000, 140 mph top speed, 0-60 mph in 5.5 seconds, 100 miles range).

I'm looking for cheap parts to source, and have looked in a few places with moderate success.

[The Toecutter]

***edit, double posted

[JanGeo]

Only 68.2mpg?? - just kidding - warmer weather today I drove 17 miles and got 53.5mpg in the xB. I also got my first door ding from someone in my front left fender above the wheel well.

I posted a new topic on the Geo Suspension / Welding and just signed up for hosting the photos and put a bunch there - check the rust out.

[MetroMPG]

53.5? nice!

yeah, parking lots suck. i hosed down my car this weekend (first time since last fall) and also noticed a good sized scrape on the rear bumper that wasn't there before.

i'll go head over to your rusty thread now...

[MetroMPG]

my friend and i still haven't had a discussion about the rusty swift. i spent an hour poking around this afternoon, pulling the front carpet up, pulling loose rust off.

i can say this: good thing this car didn't have a stronger engine, or it would have pulled its own front end right off! okay, maybe not, but it's pretty bad.

at least now with the extent of the rust fully exposed, we can make a better informed decision.

[SVOboy]

I h8 rust, noooo! It's the biggest fear in my life right now, :p

[JanGeo]

I used to get under the car every Fall and spray the bare spots with undercoat - guess I should have hit the suspension area where it rotted out. The suspension arms were amazingly thin metal and needed a lot of coating to protect them.

After the first couple of days I had the xB I got in the garage and pulled each wheel off and sprayed every bare piece of metal in the wheel wells with undercoat - I can't believe they expect a bare brake line not to rust out in a few years when exposed to wheel well junk and spray from the roads. Oh yeah the owners manual expects me to power wash the underside weekly DUH!

[rh77]

Speaking of the engine breaking loose, a family member was driving her almost new '05 VW Jetta Automatic, stopped at a stop sign and BICKETY BAM! The engine blasted through the firewall on the passenger side. No joke. Luckily no-one was in the passenger seat or they would've had a broken foot/ankle/leg. The dealer towed it in, and was like, "Crap, another one". Turns out it was a faulty engine mount. I guess it's a common issue -- kinda scary.

RH77

[Matt Timion]

wow. i'd expect this car to do that, but a new one?

well, put on your funeral clothes people, because we've decided the little red swift just isn't worth the work. there's too much daylight shining through where it shouldn't be. we're going to scrap it.

i'll post a couple of pics now that i pulled the carpet up.

so the hunt is back on for another host vehicle. i have a feeling it's going to be tough to find another one for $75. well, another one that looks this shiny up top for $75.

it would be nice if we could find a swift, since i already registered "forkenswift.com" in hopes of documenting the process on a dedicated site :) and forkenswift has a nice ring to it.

What year is your swift again? From what I've read you can easily part that thing out for a few hundred dollars on ebay. If you have a 96+ each rear view mirror can go for around $50. If your gauge cluster has a tach, that's another $70ish. Each price is USD, of course.

[JanGeo]

Bet the gas shocks in the rear hatch are dead - I could use those. Never has a rear wiper for mine either.

[rh77]

well, put on your funeral clothes people, because we've decided the little red swift just isn't worth the work...we're going to scrap it.

I'm tearing-up man. That Swift was (sniffle) such an inspiration.

Good luck parting it out. I saw one the other day and got to thinking -- how would the Ford Festiva handle the swap (too bad we don't get the Ford "Ka" over here, although they do sell them in Mexico). If millions of people can sneak across the borders, a Ford Ka could make it.

RH77

[MetroMPG]

I'm tearing-up man. That Swift was (sniffle) such an inspiration.

deja vue! (deja lu?)

how would the Ford Festiva handle the swap (too bad we don't get the Ford "Ka" over here

yeah, the festiva was another somewhat popular lightweight host car.

i'd do something more interesting if the opportunity arose. rust sucks! there are probably lots of cheap, dead, interesting, rust-free, lightweight cars to choose from in the southern US.

there's another metro sitting in someone's yard a couple of blocks away. i think it was retired recently from daily driver status to lawn ornament status. i'll go knock on their door tomorrow.

[Matt Timion]

there's another metro sitting in someone's yard a couple of blocks away. i think it was retired recently from daily driver status to lawn ornament status. i'll go knock on their door tomorrow.

Are you sure we don't live in the same neighborhood?

[JanGeo]

Hey I can cut holes in glass but my brother has done it already - takes lots of water and a diamond bit. What I really could use is the suspension mount for the right swing arm . . . no wait that rotted out on yours too WAAAAAA! My gas shocks are at a point where they hold up the hatch if it is warm out - cold they come back down unless you wait a minute then it stays up - tricky devil sometimes decides to close a minute later and WHAM on the head.

[SVOboy]

That low rider is looking pimp, y0.

[MetroMPG]

pimpin, yeah, mainly because it's sunk 3 inches into ruts in her yard!

[krousdb]

Eeeeelectric blue! I think the color fits! :)

[JanGeo]

WOW looks like they let a lot of water onto the floor and rotted it out - carpet is plastic backed and water tight.

[MetroMPG]

Eeeeelectric blue! I think the color fits! :)

you got the "eeeeee!" part right. too bad the red car didn't have the good floor! ah well, beggars and choosers, and all that.

jangeo - it looks like the rust came through from the outside first, but once water had a way in, the carpet wicked and held it and it spread like crazy.

[JanGeo]

hummm came throught the floor did it . . . yeah the undercoat is not too thick in many places.

On a side note since I did not see a recent post with this topic . . . took a trip last night to Stamford CT and back to attend a meet. I got 40.1 mpg going down 41.3 coming back - just about all highway with some rain - really heavy at times. The xB handles pretty good in the highway but oddly it seems to turn into the side wind. It really feels weird driving on these roads now sitting up so high after so many years in a lower car on the same roads.

[The Toecutter]

If you think a Geo Metro is low to the ground, you've never driven a Triumph GT6 or ridden in a Lotus Europa. Your head is right at the height of the bumpers of all those oversized trucks and SUVs on the road. It's comforting to know you can nail the accelerator to the floor if the need arises, and wake the dead with the engine roar while you're at it. People may not see you, but they'll certainly hear you.

[JanGeo]

my brother had a TR-3 and you could drag your knuckles on the ground if you stuck your arm over the door. your butt was almost on the floor. In the Geo I have looked up at the tops of tires on SUVs.

[XFi]

Had two MG Midgets...smallest/lowest cars I have ever had.

[SVOboy]

When I dropped my CRX 3" I felt like I was the lowest person in the world, loved it. Need to get my shocks in so I can drop back to 2.5 or so.

[rh77]

This is completely random (as you know I tend to be), but has anyone considered a demolishion derby for vehicles like the Red Swift? Maybe it's the 4-years of living in the middle of nowhere and attending tractor pulls, but I yearn to experience a demo-derby. Big, rear-drive tanks are the norm, but what about a little maneuverable "firefly" with some un-drivable rust to buzz around the course and use the inertia to take out the opponents rad. Yeah, I have strange goals...

RH77

[JanGeo]

Hey just wondering what those FL motors draw at 12 volts no load in amps.

[MetroMPG]

good question. unfortunately, they haven't seen any juice since i pulled them out of the forklift.

and what would it tell you?

and.. while i'm in an inquisitive mood, what would i use to measure the current draw? my brother has an induction ammeter, but i think it's an AC unit. (does that matter?)

i love revealing my ignorance!

[krousdb]

while i'm in an inquisitive mood, what would i use to measure the current draw? my brother has an induction ammeter, but i think it's an AC unit.

The AC ammeter wont be much help if you are measuring DC. A clamp type meter would be easiest, just make sure you clamp over only the positive or negative, not both as they will negate each other.

I have a DC clamp meter collecting dust in my junk drawer. I would be happy to send it to Canada for a vacation if you are interested.

[MetroMPG]

thanks for the offer, krousdb.

my friend is an industrial electrician, so he may have access to the meters we need. but he does AC work almost exclusively, so i'm not sure. i'll let you know.

[JanGeo]

So you are building an electric car and know nothing about electric motors - god no wonder you are trying it - if you knew what I know you wouldn't even think of getting started. This is what keeps me from becoming successful. Anyway you need to measure the amps from the battery - a clamp on meter probably will not work unless it can measure DC current - most are only for 60 hertz AC measurements. If you have a shunt from the parts the rating on it indicates the voltage that develops across it when the amps are going through it. A 50amp 50mv shunt will generate 50 millivolts across it when 50 amps is flowing through it. If you have a DMM that has a 200mv scale like the $2.99 ones from Harbor Freight the lowest DC Voltage scale will show you up to 199.9 amps on the meter when connected to the shunt. Chances are the motor will draw about 5-20 amps but it will tell you how efficient the motor is and how much no load current it will draw. Which will tell you how much power you will loose driving around that doesn't get to the wheels.

[JanGeo]

Before eCycle would sell me a motor I had to prove that I knew what I was doing. Calculate torque gearing hill climbing ability etc. with fixed single speed gearing the design is much more critical. With the tranny gearing in your Geo(s) you should do ok.

[MetroMPG]

had the flu this week, so didn't get much done on the forkenswift project (or any project).

but... as of today i've sold enough stuff from the red swift that we've made our money back on it. (and there's still a perfectly good motor - with decent compression even - that nobody seems to want.) i think it's reasonable to expect that by the time i'm done parting out the unnecessary stuff from both cars, they will be "free" or pretty close.

[SVOboy]

Sweet, that's awesome. I love when that happens for me, :p

A lot of stuff can be picked up for cheap and with a bit of effort parted for some reasonable money/parts you want.

This project is like, the best thing ever. You'll be the envy of the site pretty soon, Matt will have to make a chargelog, ;)

[Matt Timion]

Matt will have to make a chargelog, ;)

HAHA... That's not a bad idea. Is there a way to quantify how many Kilowatt hours are used to charge a char?

[JanGeo]

Hey you ever heard of a Kill-a-watt meter? It plugs into a regular outlet and measures amp hours, Kilowatt hours, voltage, frequency, amps, watts, power factor, volt amps, and time connected to the outlet.

[The Toecutter]

but... as of today i've sold enough stuff from the red swift that we've made our money back on it. (and there's still a perfectly good motor - with decent compression even - that nobody seems to want.)

Ebay.

[krousdb]

Yup, the kill-o-wat meter is the bomb. I had it from when I grid charged the Prius to record kwh. Now I use it here and there to see how much juice things draw. I got it on ebay for like $25 shipped. The only caveat is that it is rated at 120V, 1875 watts. If you are using standard 12V chargers then you should have no problems.

[MetroMPG]

chargelog. that's funny.

eventually if we want to truly compare our vehicles' efficiencies, we'll have to convert to common energy units. diesel will lose some of its apparent mpg advantage over gasoline, etc.

ebay the motor, eh? has anyone here ever shipped a motor? or received one shipped to them (you have, right matt)? i've specified preferred pick-up on teamswift - that may be part of why it hasn't sold (in addition to being the least desired motor in the suzukiclone pecking order after the 1.3 dohc and the 1.0).

thing is, i have no idea how to "package" it properly and would have to check international issues, since the buyer would probably be south of the border.

[MetroMPG]

Yup, the kill-o-wat meter is the bomb. The only caveat is that it is rated at 120V, 1875 watts. If you are using standard 12V chargers then you should have no problems.

i think we'd blow it up. even if we stick to automotive dumb 6A chargers on a 4 12v battery setup, that would be 120V x 6A x 4 chargers = 2880 watts. could do the calcs manually i suppose; just time how long we're charging for.

of course, then we have to debate whether to base calcs on total energy pulled from the grid or actual energy used that was stored in the batts...

[krousdb]

[i think we'd blow it up. even if we stick to automotive dumb 6A chargers on a 4 12v battery setup, that would be 120V x 6A x 4 chargers = 2880 watts. could do the calcs manually i suppose; just time how long we're charging for.

Methinks your calcs might be wrong. Is the 6A an input or output number. I think it is an output number. So 12V x 6A x 4 = 288W.

Edit: I just checked my 10A, 12V output charger. The input numbers are 120V, 1.9A. So 4 of these would be 120V x 1.9A * 4 = 912W. You could run eight 10A, 12V chargers off of one kill-o-watt meter.

[krousdb]

Also interesting to note is the conversion efficiency of 12V battery chargers.

Input: 120V x 1.9A = 228W
Output: 12V x 10A = 120W

Efficiency = 120/228 = 52.6%

[MetroMPG]

Methinks your calcs might be wrong. Is the 6A an input or output number. I think it is an output number. So 12V x 6A x 4 = 288W.

you're right. thanks for the correction.

and, what nasty charger inefficiency. very interesting. also, not surprising now that i think of how hot the charger gets when it's in use for any length of time.

[JanGeo]

If you are charging the 12 volt batteries in series in the EV then you are better off charging them with a single high voltage charger so you only get a diode drop power loss for one diode instead of many. I run a Variac/autotransformer rated at 20 amps through a 35 amp bridge directly to the battery and dial up the voltage and current for 3 or 4 - 12 volt batteries and run some Powercheq balancer modules between them to keep them balanced charged the same. This charger, although heavy to carry at around 30-35 lbs, get about 89-90% efficency which is just a little below (1-3%) the efficiency of the much more expensive chargers.

[krousdb]

Methinks your calcs might be wrong. Is the 6A an input or output number. I think it is an output number. So 12V x 6A x 4 = 288W.

you're right. thanks for the correction.

and, what nasty charger inefficiency. very interesting. also, not surprising now that i think of how hot the charger gets when it's in use for any length of time.

Actually, the output is more like 13.5V while charging so the efficiency is closer to 59%

[Matt Timion]

has anyone here ever shipped a motor? or received one shipped to them (you have, right matt)? i've specified preferred pick-up on teamswift - that may be part of why it hasn't sold (in addition to being the least desired motor in the suzukiclone pecking order after the 1.3 dohc and the 1.0).

thing is, i have no idea how to "package" it properly and would have to check international issues, since the buyer would probably be south of the border.

I purchased a motor from a company in Southern California. They charged me $200 to ship, but I'm certain I was ripped of there.

You want to look into a freight service. DHL, FedEX, and UPS all offer freight services. It's cheaper to deliever to a business than residential when using freight.

When the guy delievered my engine he was so relieved that I was actually home. I looked on the street and he was driving a GIANT truck. I swear it was a semi, but I can't remember. The engine was on a pallete, which it still sits on.

This is why engines are so expensive to ship on ebay, but if you're willing to do it (and the buyer is as well) then I say you go for it.

You also have two possible scenarios. You could part the engine out (sell the head, the pistons, etc.) which woudl make it much easier to ship. You could also just keep the engine as a spare for when your engine dies.

OR, build a kick-*** go-kart.

[The Toecutter]

OR, build a kick-*** go-kart.

I've considered doing this, but it would be so damn difficult to get it road legal. I mean, what fun is a go-kart if you can't scare the **** out of unsuspecting security moms in their SUVs and minivans by suddenly shooting out from beside them at over double the legal speed limit?

[Matt Timion]

OR, build a kick-*** go-kart.

I've considered doing this, but it would be so damn difficult to get it road legal. I mean, what fun is a go-kart if you can't scare the **** out of unsuspecting security moms in their SUVs and minivans by suddenly shooting out from beside them at over double the legal speed limit?

It would be way cool though, and you know it.

A 700 lbs go-kart with a 90 HP engine.

That was be so freaking cool. I bet it would get awesome gas mileage too.

[SVOboy]

I'm surprised metro motors even sell. I guess honda motors are so free because there're powerful replacements to them, *shrug*

[The Toecutter]

It would be way cool though, and you know it.

A 700 lbs go-kart with a 90 HP engine.

That was be so freaking cool. I bet it would get awesome gas mileage too.

Would one build a streamlined body with roughly a .18 drag coefficient and 8 square foot frontal area, it would be very reasonable to expect 150 mpg.

[Matt Timion]

I purchased a motor from a company in Southern California. They charged me $200 to ship, but I'm certain I was ripped of there.

ow. yeah, it's not going to be practical to ship it. i think my asking price is now down to around $95 for the motor, and still nobody wants it. so i can't see it selling, even if shipping is going to be 1/2 what you paid. i guess i'll just keep dropping the price and see what happens.

the 1.0 out of the blue car should sell easier, even though it doesn't seem to run as well.

Do you have a craigslist in your area? It's a great place to advertise.

[Matt Timion]

small town. no craigslist. closest list is for ottawa - 100 km away. but i posted an ad there anyway, thanks for the idea.

and while i was writing up the ad, someone contacted me through teamswift looking for the 1.3 for his sidekick. it's the first bite so far, and he signed up on teamswift just to contact me. so maybe that will work out.

That's a good thing. Odds are he signed up just to contact you. i know I've done that more than once before on some forums. I'm sure it annoys the admins, but whatever.

Good luck selling it. The thing I've learned is that sometimes you just have to have patience with these things. I'm still having people contact me for items I listed on other sites for sale last September.

[JanGeo]

Heat the area up to be welded a little first then wire brush the undercoating off so you don't breath the fumes and start fires.

[JanGeo]

Good deal on the curtis! Definately you should use it, control is important when using this kind of power and it will control the load put on your batteries better.

Puddy knife on the undercoat - the stuff is designed to stay on and not be easy to remove, maybe some compressed air from a long metal hose with a nozzle when it starts smoking and burning to blow it off.

[MetroMPG]

compressed air is a great idea for blowing out the flames. i noticed today a couple of times i got a mouth-full of fumes when i took in a good breath to blow out the fire.

the only thing about the curtis is i'm not sure what its amp limit is. it's probably kind of low. the controller that came with the forklift has a high rating - around 500A. but you're right - its design (SCR) is harder on batteries than the modern controller style.

[JanGeo]

there should be a lot of info on the curtis online - check the model number - and you don't need a lot of amps if you uses the gear box.

[DaX]

patched up some more holes tonight. more fires! more fun.

Are you using coat hangers for filler rod? :) I can TIG weld, and I hear braze welding is somewhat similar in skill to TIGin'.

[MetroMPG]

i've been using flux-coated brass rods. i've heard you can use coat hanger wire, but i haven't tried it. i'll give it a shot today and let you know what happens.

[MetroMPG]

yup, coat hanger works, but its melting point is higher, so it's a bit harder to work (more of a chance i'll melt the car). also you'd need to add flux. but if you ever run out of brazing rods...

and the rods i'm using are bronze - i said brass by mistake.

[rh77]

Wow, great DIY-ing. I guess if you haven't welded much before, you just have to try it, right? This is a great thread, BTW! Keep us posted...

[SVOboy]

Indeed, this gives me hope for my own welding experimentation. I might buy another CRX with my friend that needs hella work just to get practice in with fixing rust and painting and ****.

Mehbe we'll make it an EV while we're at it, :p

[JanGeo]

Make sure the drains work!! I may have to learn welding on my Geo to fix it - doesn't sound like my brother is going to be working on it much - would probably only take a few hours of welding now that it is in about the right position but he doesn't see it that way yet I work for hours on his computer making it run well. Why don't people see that balance of time for time....well anyway - anyone know of some alignment tricks to get things lined up properly on the Geo before I weld everything in place let me know!

[MetroMPG]

Make sure the drains work!!

you know, i think it was the 2 open drains at the bottom of the firewall (they're actually in the underbody, just after the transition from firewall to underbody) that caused the rust i've been fixing.

the outboard drain is perfectly positioned to receive tire spray directly into it, and once the water (salty water in the winter) is inside, it's not going to dry up quickly. the inside floor, firewall, and underbody of the car form a roughly triangular shaped cavity accessed by those drain holes.

anyone know of some alignment tricks to get things lined up properly on the Geo before I weld everything in place let me know!

if you decide to go ahead with fixing your geo, and you want me to take measurements on the blue car that will help, let me know.

[MetroMPG]

Wow, great DIY-ing. I guess if you haven't welded much before, you just have to try it, right?

yup, i'd always wanted to try it. can check that one off the list now.

[JanGeo]

if you decide to go ahead with fixing your geo, and you want me to take measurements on the blue car that will help, let me know.
The distance from the center of the A-Arm pivot pins measured in front and back may work for starters - problem is that the motor gets in the way. I don't know if it will be easy to measure that exactly, maybe a right triangle on a 2x4 between the left and right sides would be possible. Will have to wait for the week of rain to stop here before getting under the front end and see how it is. Then probably the angle of the wheels at the left and right stops may tell something also. Any ideas appreciated . . . Thanks!

[JanGeo]

Looking good! I might have fiberglassed it instead of brazing it but a metal floor is preferred in a car.

Bad news is that there has been a lot of rust found on new xB's all over the country in the wetter climates including mine. The door seam at the top rear corner under the weather stripping gets rusty and one owner pulled up the floor carpeting and found bare metal at a rib rusting badly.

[DaX]

Any word on the inspection?

Spiders hatching from the passenger door. I believe Tammara would have jumped into oncoming traffic had that happend while she was sitting in that seat when they hatched.

[Matt Timion]

Spiders hatching from the passenger door. I believe Tammara would have jumped into oncoming traffic had that happend while she was sitting in that seat when they hatched.

LOL, I have a feeling Jenny would probably scream and then jump into the back seat.

We just had a patch of spiders hatch on our shed the other day, which I'm now using as the main storage for car parts. Let's just say that a homemade torch with a lighter and an aerosol can can easily kill baby spiders :)

[SVOboy]

no, not really one by one. you can't see in the pic, but they're on a very fine web "mat" of their own making. i just grabbed a corner and the whole lot of them peeled off to be carried away.

Ben says yay, :)

Good luck on the project though. I feel so dirty worrying about my own project when you're totally owning me.

[JanGeo]

Hey the editing of the word fibergl a s s is pretty funny.

Your loose rack should be adjustable - there should be a set screw and lock nut on the end of the steering shaft into the rack. My Geo is still tight and was very tight when new.

[krousdb]

the forkenswift passed inspection! :D:D:D

woohoo!!

i think that is insanely funny, considering the net cost both cars is currently $89.85 (and dropping - sold a radiator today).

Wooot! Congrats on the forkenswift!

[SVOboy]

Wooot! Congrats on the forkenswift!
Yeah, for serious. I'm so jealous, I h8 this whole gasoline thing.

[MetroMPG]

thanks! i was getting a bit tired of working on it, so i'm looking forward to taking a break this weekend.

[MetroMPG]

one of the things the cahttp://images6.theimagehosting.com/metro-hybrid-branding.jpg

[Matt Timion]

why bother electrifying the car when it's already a hybrid?

a hybrid mix of suzuki, geo and pontiac!

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/metro-hybrid-branding.th.jpg (http://images6.theimagehosting.com/metro-hybrid-branding.jpg)

This cracks me up. Kinda makes me wish I didn't paint my car last year and just left it with parts from 4 different cars on it.

One thing is for certain, no one would steal it like that :P

[MetroMPG]

Dropped the torch off at

[MetroMPG]

Update o' the day:

Spent another hour today

[MetroMPG]

Drivetrain is out of the re

[DaX]

Offsetting might be the best bet.

For the single drive wheel option, you can weld the differential to create a "spool." I think a lot of rally cars have a spool so that they can finish the race even with a broken axle. The disadvantage of this option should be aparent - if you lose traction on your drive wheel, you loose all traction.

[95metro]

One thing I was wondering about was if it would affect handling - ie. would the steering "pull" all the time? Just when accelerating? Would it behave oddly in tight turns? (In one direction, the motor would run faster than the opposite turn.)

The differential simply makes certain that the driving wheels are able to turn at different speeds during cornering. It's pretty interesting, howstuffworks.com has some good Flash animations.

I know there used to be some 1-wheel-drive RC cars, but they were generally RWD. Hard to say how a FWD would react. It probably would pull to the power side and you probably have to give it more gas around the corners where the drive wheel is on the outside, but I don't know for certain.

[MetroMPG]

Offsetting: one concern that comes to mind is that it puts some lateral load (what's the proper term for that, engineering folks?) on both shafts. I wonder if that might have a negative effect on shaft bearings & seals.

[95metro]

The "spool" idea becomes clear when you see a diff in motion. There's a good flash animation on this page:

Hahaha, you beat me to it...:D

[DaX]

Offsetting: one concern that comes to mind is that it puts some lateral load (what's the proper term for that, engineering folks?) on both shafts. I wonder if that might have a negative effect on shaft bearings & seals.

Are you talking about a thrust load (parallel to the turning shafts) or a radial load (perpendicular to the turning shafts)? Both can be compensated for - the former with some form of thrust bearing, the latter with a good quality ball bearing.

[MetroMPG]

I think doing the offset would add

[SVOboy]

You're so crazy, I love the mirror image shot.

*jealous*

[Matt Timion]

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/wind-turbine-truck-2.th.jpg (http://images6.theimagehosting.com/wind-turbine-truck-2.jpg)

Oversize load, eh? that's the understatement of the year.

BTW, I love the tow bar :P

[SVOboy]

Sooo cheap, sooo jealous.

Keep up the good work. Do you have an estimated date of completion?

[MetroMPG]

Not really sure about dates.

[SVOboy]

Well shoot, I'll be up around canada by september, mehbe you can gimme a ride.

[MetroMPG]

No real news to report, but I did start up and move the blue car today, so tackling the next stage of the project is on the radar anyway.

[MetroMPG]

Actually did 20 min

[DaX]

Also talked shaft coupler ideas. This guy will likely be involved in helping us mate the electric motor to the tranny, due to the non-standard motor shaft issue (it being internally splined, as pump motors are, apparently).

Whatever kind of coupler you come up with, I would consider getting it case hardened...at least see how expensive the process is.

[MetroMPG]

Adapter

[JanGeo]

hey was the red cars right suspension horn A-arm mount area rusted out?
Looks like my Old Geo is going to end up in Doug's junk yard at this rate - can't justify the cost of owning it for the fuel savings now that the xB is getting such high mileage. It is either fix it safely and sell it or junk yard time.

[MetroMPG]

The red car was rusted & patched exactly where yours is - sorry. Guess it's sayonara Suzukiclone for you too, eh?

Have you been riding/driving your electric scooter this year? You really ought to post a thread about it (with pics, naturally). :)

[JanGeo]

I thought that was the one you patched, so I guess the other side is not the same either huh?

Nope getting tired of fixing the broken controllers but I am working on an old mountain bike that I now have 2 20" eGo wheels on a 26 inch frame making it a low rider stretch bike that I will mount an eCycle motor on and maybe 2 or 4 - 26ah batteries on a spring mount and end up with a pretty fast low sitdown easy rolling street bike - no suspension with high pressure ringworm tires.

[SVOboy]

You could cut an old cooling tray (like for baking) down to size, prolly pick one up from a junk sale or thrift store for cheap.

[MetroMPG]

That's a good idea - and it made me think of another one: a grill from an oven (the racks inside, you know?).

[vegasjetskier]

How about the mesh from an abandoned shopping cart?

[MetroMPG]

How about the mesh from an abandoned shopping cart?
No abandoned carts in my little town. But that's the idea I was thinking of. Even something like the mesh from an ironing board. (Some have a metal lattice under the pad & cover...) Something will turn up. If not, I could always go buy a roll of aluminum flashing and put on a double-ply's worth.

Anyway, the bike trailer is done. Turned out OK. I'll post a pic or 2 eventually.

[MetroMPG]

First, as promised,

[MetroMPG]

Second: back to the ForkenSwift.

After a too-long delay, Ivan and I spent an hour on it this morning. Hopefully the inertia will carry it along a little more regularl

[SVOboy]

How much did it cost for the tranny adapter plate?

[MetroMPG]

It was gratis for the metal. Scrap. Ivan cut it & we drilled it.

[SVOboy]

*getsangry*

Dude, that's awesome. that crap cost like 900 dollars for hondas. Make me one so I can use my tranny with the new L12!

[MetroMPG]

Make yer own! The material wouldn't have cost much - $60-70 CDN pesos, had we had to cough up the cash. Aluminum (the stuff we got, anyway) is very easy to work (soft).

We could have bought one from an EV supplier for roughly $150 US.

[SVOboy]

Yeah, I guessssss. Not gonna fool with serious fab work until I go EV.

[MetroMPG]

Well, Sketchup is neat, but it's not really appropriate for this task.

[SVOboy]

*swoonsoverdarin'sawesomeness*

Dude, you said it'd be done by september. I'm counting on you.

[MetroMPG]

Did I say DONE by Sept? :o

How 'bout September-ish for the first electric test drive. :D

If it were up to me alone, Sept. would be no problem. Unfortunately it's a two-person project and Ivan has a full-time+ job (and clearly, I don't!).

[SVOboy]

Don't blame everything on poor Ivan! :) Don't worry, you're doing just fine.

[MetroMPG]

No, not blaming. It's actually good that he can't work on it all the time, or I'd likely neglect my work (more than usual) and get the clients riled up. Keeps me in check ... unlike today, whiling away the afternoon writing GS messages. Enough! Back to work...

[SVOboy]

Indeed, back to work for me as well! (huh?)

[krousdb]

Happy Schoonering Darin. I will be doing a more mundane thing during the same time period. Yours sounds like more fun but at least I will see more cyotes, armadillos, skunks and turtles than you. :D

[MetroMPG]

Thanks Dan. Watch out for those armadillos - I hear they increase rolling resistance :D

I'll get to see, um... more whales, seals and porpoises than you!

[JanGeo]

WOW I know a lot of guy in Power-Assist that will be happy to hear that law being passed.

[MetroMPG]

The only downside is they're calling it a "pilot project". So it's open to review sometime down the road. Still, cool.

[DaX]

I love seeing updates on this Darin!

[Matt Timion]

Took the parts to the machinist today. May end up modifying the motor shaft rather than trying to incorporate the existing splined pump shaft into the coupler design.

The machinist hemmed and hawed about the pump shaft until I suggested we could change the motor shaft.

So maybe next week something will happen... One thing I know will happen is the total $ investment in the project will probably have increased by about 30-40% by the time we get out of there :D

This is an exciting part of the process... where all of the custom works really comes into play.

I was just thinking how useful this thread is going to be to a ton of people when you're done.

[MetroMPG]

Update-o-rama!

Picked up the motor & tranny fro

[MetroMPG]

Pics of the mystery parts I've been talking about...

[MetroMPG]

Well, the blue Forke

[The Toecutter]

Block heaters can make decent outlets to use to your advantage when you need a charge.

You should seriously consider aeromods to this thing to increase top speed and extend range.

[Silveredwings]

What is nominal shaft diameter of the armature? I would compare the adapter's diameter to that, not the tranny's. If it is smaller it could be a potential weak point... but really, how much torque is it going to be called upon to transfer?

It's hard to say because the emotor can put out so much instantaneous torque from a start that it can easily chew things up. Metro, maybe you should put some kind of damping circuit on the accelerator potentiometer to limit sudden increases (if your controller doesn't have this already). That "soft coupler" you have is very clever.

[MetroMPG]

The motor shaft is about

[MetroMPG]

You should seriously consider aeromods to this thing to increase top speed and extend range.

Don't forget this is only going to be a neighbourhood type vehicle. Average speed will probably be 30 km/h. :p

[MetroMPG]

Also... that motor adapter plate looks thick enough to withstand a 700 hp big-block Chevy!!! http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/images/smiles/shocked.gif

Which is exactly my plan when I get bored with the electric thing! Just saving on future machining costs...

[MetroMPG]

:D :D Lateral thinking. Gotta love it.

It'll cause lateral driving too.

[Silveredwings]

The forklift controller has an "acceleration ramp" built in, and I believe it's also adjustable via a pot. On the plus side (?) We're running relatively low voltage from a small pack, so we're not going to be putting out prodigous amps (relative to the Tesla roadster, for example).
I don't follow that volts-to-amps relationship.

I thought the soft coupler was pretty clever too, until I talked to a commercial EV builder last week. He suggested we were going to wear out/chew up that urethane spacer in short order, and actually said a fixed connection between the motor & input shaft would have been fine.
If there's any play at all, I would expect it to get bigger, especially if you're planning on supporting regen brakes (alternating torque in either direction - I didn't say it that time :) ).

I anticipate great things from this project. :thumbup:

[MetroMPG]

This evening: axles out, exhaust removed, shift linkage disconnected.

I don't follow that volts-to-amps relationship.

At what point did it become apparent that I'm completely winging this? :o

If there's any play at all, I would expect it to get bigger, especially if you're planning on supporting regen brakes (alternating torque in either direction - I didn't say it that time :) ).

No regen - just "go!" So the wear is in one direction.

I anticipate great things from this project. :thumbup:

I anticipate breaking things! All in good fun though.

[kickflipjr]

So how much more before you get that thing on the road?

[MetroMPG]

I don't want to predi

[Silveredwings]

Theoretically, inside 2 or 3 weeks we could have the electric drivetrain in, so we could hook jumper cables between a couple of batteries and the motor, and off we go! Does that count?
I think that does count. It's the current thing to do. :thumbup:

I don't think jumper cables have enough surface area in contact with the battery cables to handle the current you'd need (even in a test). The clips will probably heat up, and may even burn them at the contact points (you might be shocked to find the battery terminals burned as well), but I may be wrong. Don't let this impede your progress, just keep an eye on it. I read about many EV builders who regularly check and tighten their battery terminal connections because of the effects the high current has on them. One of the advantages of going with higher voltage is lower current:

Volts * Amps = Watts (Watts law)

But you may not be able to change the top voltage your motor/controller can take, so don't get too wired about it.

The other potential problem is the voltage drop across the jumper clips in proportion to the current:

Ohms * Amps = Volts (Ohms law)

So you want to minimize the ohms (unit of resistance) wherever you can: thick cable, heavy duty terminal connections, high surface area connections to your controller, fuse(s), motor, kill switch (eventually), etc. Try to have as little 'etc.' as possible. :)

[MetroMPG]

As a matter of fact, we a

[Silveredwings]

I too have read about the hazards of loose connections. You've no doubt also seen the current "lead" story on evconvert.com :)

Here's a question: can you go too thick with cabling, etc? Is too much of a good thing a bad thing in that regard?

No I hadn't seen the new evconvert article yet (I check it almost daily), thanks for letting me know.

Non-superconducting wires all have some finite amount of resistance and so will cause some amount of voltage drop across them (proportional to current). This loss of wattage amounts to loss as heat. Note that this wattage doesn't need much voltage when the current is high (ex. 1.88V * 400A = 752W or more than 1 hp).

Somewhere there exists well proven recommendations for the guage wire for a given current. As for voltage, thickness of wire is irrelevant, but thickness of insulation is, but you'll not likely exceed the wires' voltage ratings.

There's no electrical reason not to go too thick with your cables, but at some point it adds too much weight and expense (for both cables and connections). Copper is heavy and I don't recommend aluminum wires. Very heavy cables may also be more diffucult to work with.

[JanGeo]

Cables that are a little on the light side will protect you from overloading the batteries by providing you with a little series resistance and heat when things start to go wrong. The input shaft of the tranny is designed to handle the load of the clutch being dumped with a ICE reving so you have the torque load and the inertia load of the flywheel to consider. If you knew the torque output of the electric motor or at least the Torque constant NM/AMP or voltage constant rpm/volt you could get a good idea of the torque output. Chances are that you are NOT going to exceed the tranny limits unless you start pushing 1000+ amps into the motor. Actually if you know the rpm and watts you are pushing into the motor you can figure out the HP and the Torque but then you would be running it and would already know. Only consideration with the coupling is the shifting without the clutch when moving . . . them syncros are going to get a workout!

[Silveredwings]

Cables that are a little on the light side will protect you from overloading the batteries by providing you with a little series resistance and heat when things start to go wrong.

That's an interesting point. There's also the internal resistance of each battery to add into the loop which also has a current limiting effect.

[MetroMPG]

[quote=JanGeo]The input shaft of the

[MetroMPG]

asdlkfjh

[Silveredwings]

Wow, out through the bottom? I haven't seen that since the old beetles.

I once took an engine out using an old swingset and a come-along, another with a chain over some garage rafters with the come-along, and a couple with a shop crane. The most memorable was the MGB engine I took out with another guy by looping a chain across some head bolts and sticking a long log through the chain. We lifted each end of the log up, and hurled the block up and over the radiator support and down into the dirt (I only wanted the the engine for the crankshaft).

[DaX]

Wow, out through the bottom? I haven't seen that since the old beetles.

It's how most shops remove engines...for Hondas anyhow.

I became familiar with the "out-from-under" trick with my 914...there is NO way to get it out from the top.

[onegammyleg]

It's how most shops remove engines...for Hondas anyhow.

I became familiar with the "out-from-under" trick with my 914...there is NO way to get it out from the top.

Most front wheel drives engine/transmisions go out the bottom.

[onegammyleg]

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/metro-rocker-R-fixed.jpg

This would fail a police examination immediately in Australia. :D

[Silveredwings]

Most front wheel drives engine/transmisions go out the bottom.

Huh. I definiately had to 'lift' the Passat engine to do the waterpump.

[MetroMPG]

The Metro drivetrain could have come out

[MetroMPG]

This would fail a police examination immediately in Australia. :D

Hmm... Based on past experience, I suspect a funny image is not showing up... :)

[Silveredwings]

The Metro drivetrain could have come out the top or the bottom. It only came out the way it did because we had the right tool for the job: Ivan happens to have a manual pallet lift rated for the weight. (If we'd had a swing-set it might have come out the top!)
All things considered, it probably is as easy to lift a metro off the motor than to remove the hood and lift out the engine. :)

Next step: re-install the transmission with the trans mounts, axles & shift linkage from the red 4-cyl. car - same transmission casing in both cars, but the 4-cyl mounts offset the transmission about 3 inches more to the left of the engine compartment. That'll leave us more room for the electric motor (which is slightly longer than the 3-cyl engine block, but not quite as long as the 4-cyl block).

Then we need to fabricate an engine mount for the e-motor.
I can't wait to see this thing come together. :thumbup:

[Silveredwings]

If you're going to put racks of batteries and/or the controller module above the motor/tranny in the engine compartment, you might want to mount them both so you can remove them from the bottom as with the oem ice (I know, you're waay ahead of me :) ). As I think you said, you expect to break things.

[MetroMPG]

That's a good idea.

In fact, the only reason we're

[Silveredwings]

That's a good idea.

In fact, the only reason we're going to the trouble of using the engine/tranny brackets from the 4-cyl car is so we can remove the electric motor later without having to remove the axles & transmission also.

I re-installed the transmission today with the 3-cyl mounts just to confirm measurements: we only have 1 inch of clearance between the end of the electric motor and the "frame" on the right side. Not enough room to wiggle the motor off the transmission inside the engine bay should we ever need to.
So are you saying that with the 4-cyl mounts, you do have enough room to slide the motor off the tranny? Does that mean it would come out the top or the bottom of the car? Just curious.

Where are the batteries going? Are you able to keep the CG low? There are so many less dense things taking up valuable space up front on a car like that (trans, rack, etc.). Or can you reclaim gas tank space?

But before I can locate everything in the 4-cyl spot, I have to head back out to the bush lot to take another part off the red car: apparently the driver's side tranny mount is different. Not just the bracket, but the mount that's bolted to the frame.

Hopefully it's a straight bolt-in. I don't think they would have used different holes, but I'll find out for sure tomorrow.

All this junk will become clear when I post photos, for those who care.
I'll be watching.

[MetroMPG]

So are you saying that with the 4-cyl mounts, you do have enough room to slide the motor off the tranny? Does that mean it would come out the top or the bottom of the car? Just curious.
That's it, yes - room to slide it off the tranny,

[MetroMPG]

I didn't actually install the motor. Ev

[MetroMPG]

BTW, apologies for the crappy picture quality. Antique 1 mega pixel camera. :p

[Silveredwings]

Great progress! It's taking shape!

If I had the garage space, I'd love to do something like that myself. In the meantime, it's all I can do to find time to breath some life back into my Austin-Healey. If I can get some pending projects done on that beast, I may 'free up' the space it's hogging in my garage. :)

[MetroMPG]

What's keeping the Healey off the road (aside from the fact that according to your avatar, one of your carbs is on the kitchen table :) )?

[Silveredwings]

What's keeping the Healey off the road (aside from the fact that according to your avatar, one of your carbs is on the kitchen table :) )?
OK, but remember that you asked. ;) That's one of the original 3 SUs that I couldn't get to lean out. They're a peculiar but faascinating design: they

actually alter the venturi size while metering the gas with a tapered needle to keep the mixture correct for all engine speeds. Usually the throttle shaft bushings get so worn that they let in too much air in and the carbs just won't work right. In this case, the needles and seats were worn as well. Compared to doing a rebuild myself, 3 brand new ones were only slightly more (about $1k in all), so I bought new ones from the SU factory while it still existed. When I got them, they didn't fit the existing linkage and I didn't want to alter the original parts. So, I chose to grind down the brand new parts.

Meanwhile, back at the oasis, the car has sat motionless for several years. I feared the inevitable varnish would plug up the new carbs, so I removed the whole fuel system from the tank forward. Now that that is done, I'm finally ready to install the new carbs and get them tuned up. Yay!! Then synchronizing all 3 is an iterative process of mixture adjustments and airflow measurements. It sounds harder than it really is, just time consuming. Before I get the brute started, I need to carefully make sure nothing (like a valve) is stuck, or I might do as my brother did and break something that requires an engine teardown.

The battery cables also needed replacing and are all set now. Oh, and the speedometer has been broken since I bought the car. It's off to a rebuilder.

...and I try to tell kids this today and they just give me the thousand-mile stare. :D

Blue car tranny is nearly fully hooked up now: spent an hour this AM re-installing the shifter & linkage from the 4-cyl car (different length control & shift rods compared to the 3-pot due to transmission offset).

I totally FUBAR'ed the speedometer cable "recepticle" on the trans housing (what they heck to you call the orifice it plugs into?). The end of the cable was corroded solidly in there, and I snapped the works right off. The mechanical "sending" unit is still functional - but I'll have to come up with a creative way to hold the replacement cable in place on top of it.

Bummer about the speedo drive. Sounds like the part of the cable that threads onto the trany twisted off the threaded part on the housing (is that right?). Is that part replaceable? If not, I'll be watching to see how you solve that one. :thumbup:

[MetroMPG]

Do you have an ETA?

...and I try to tell kids this today and they just give me the thousand-mile stare. :D

Ah, but this kid drew a picture of an Austin Healey as a 12 year old in grade 6 that he still remembers. ;)

Sounds like the part of the cable that threads onto the trany twisted off the threaded part on the housing (is that right?). Is that part replaceable? If not, I'll be watching to see how you solve that one. :thumbup:

That's the right idea, except it's not threaded. The cable end just slides in, and is held with a circlip type of fastener. It's replaceable, but only if I dig out the part of the part that broke off *below* the level of the main housing. I think we'll just MacGyver something instead. We have a bolt nearby we can use to hold the MacGyverness.

[Silveredwings]

Do you have an ETA?
Unless I'm delayed, I should get it started in the next week. Get it tuned about a week after, and get it mostly road ready by December (maybe).

Ah, but this kid drew a picture of an Austin Healey as a 12 year old in grade 6 that he still remembers. ;)
That's how I was!

[JanGeo]

I totally FUBAR'ed the speedometer cable "recepticle" on the trans housing (what they heck to you call the orifice it plugs into?). The end of the cable was corroded solidly in there, and I snapped the works right off. The mechanical "sending" unit is still functional - but I'll have to come up with a creative way to hold the replacement cable in place on top of it.

That would be a BOSS I believe. Yeah it just pops in the hole - that way it can be disconnected easier . . . maybe.

Hey I think you may know of this conversion but am not sure . . .

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/325

[MetroMPG]

Boss - that's it.

I have seen that Honda conversion before. Neat job. AND: under $2K US conversion cost (not sure if that included the car or not).

[MetroMPG]

Unless I'm delayed, I should get it started in the next week. Get it tuned about a week after, and get it mostly road ready by December (maybe).

Well, do keep us posted.

[MetroMPG]

This week/today:

[MetroMPG]

Started work on the bracket to

[Silveredwings]

Well, you seem to be making steady progress.

meanwhile...
Well, do keep us posted.
I got everything hooked up and ready. I was actually delayed because I needed to put some gas in the tank. My old container still had 6 year old gas in it and I wasn't about to use that, but I had to get rid of about 5 gal. :cool:

...anyway, I'm ready to test the pump and do the leak checks (so many fuel connections). I'm sure everything will work the first time. ;)

[MetroMPG]

Ooo! When?

I had 7 year old gas --- in my car --- when I bought it. That's how long it had sat in a garage. (I've probably told that story about ten times by now.)

Keep us posted