How to make the intake air more humid to save gas.

[chasgood]

<p>Back in the 70's&nbsp; gas crunch water injection kits were sold to increase mpg. The theory is humid air expands more when heated than dry air so less fuel is used to make the same power. The theory is sound but the kits made back then didnt work well. </p><p>Ever notice your car runs better in cool foggy weather?<br /></p><p>I was thinking about this when I saw a room humidifier at my sisters house. It uses some sort of pezo electric dodad to turn water into a cool vapor. I am not mechaniclly handy but thought could one of those things be put in a cars intake with a tube running to a bottle of water?</p><p>I hope someone out there handy with cars can give this a try. what do ya think?<br /></p>

[Matt Timion]

<p>Hopefully some of the experts can chime in here.&nbsp; I've heard arguements for WARM air helping gas mileage, as well as COLD air.&nbsp; Now we can throw HUMID air into the mix.&nbsp; Let me poke around and see what I can find out about it.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;I'm certain it wouldn't be difficult at all to manufacture a HAI (Humid Air Intake), but you'd have to somehow account for the air filter.&nbsp; Standard air filters would disolve, and race filters (like K&amp;N filters) would probably clog up pretty fast with the extra moisture.</p><p>Perhaps add the water AFTER the air filter?<br />&nbsp;</p>

[chasgood]

<p>Food for thought.</p><p>The Air Force used to have planes that had water injection to boost power. the jet engines in the first B52's needed water injection just to get off the ground. Later models had better engines and didnt need it. In the begining KC135's used water injection too. They have all been modified with bigger engines.<br /></p><p>Some prop planes during WWII used water injection as well. No jets back then.&nbsp;</p><p>Up intill 5 or 10 years ago bases had to have demineralized water on hand for these beasts.&nbsp;</p>

[Matt Timion]

<p>I was thinking about this last night and I had a few questions.&nbsp; First of all, weren't all cars carburated when the last gas crisis occured? Would the Humid Air Intake work better on carburated engines than fuel injection?</p><p>Secondly, isn't water in the gas typically something that is considered a bad thing?&nbsp; I mean, you get water in your gas tank and your car dies.&nbsp; How would putting water in the air intake be any different?&nbsp; See if you can find any information on the net about this, as I'd love to read more about it. &nbsp;&nbsp;</p>

[SVOboy]

There are a bunch of things out on the market right now that do just this. You hook them up to your intake and they shoot some liquid in their for a better leaner mix. Those things don't work. They've been reviewed by a lot of consumer groups and they say they are all bunk. However, water may be different because this other injection things might just use some crap to get you to buy it. Mehbe you could retrofit one of those crappy kits to inject wudder instead and see what happens.

[chasgood]

Putting moisture in the intake air is different than putting water in the gas.
Humid air when heated expands more than dry air. When your spark plug fires and starts the combustion of the fuel air mixture it is the expansion of the gases that forces the piston down making hp and torque. more power per unit of fuel means you can let off the gas pedel a bit.

[SVOboy]

This sounds like a pretty sound theory, do you have any idea how to rig this up xor how to store the water and that type of thing?

[Matt Timion]

This sounds like a pretty sound theory, do you have any idea how to rig this up xor how to store the water and that type of thing?

Why not have the air pass throught a water "filter" of sorts? you know, kind of like a water bong? This could actually server as a air filter too.

Or would could just put a hole in the air intake hose and feed some moisture in that way. It could siphon off of a spare wiper fluid container modified for this very reason.

[SVOboy]

Hell, I could just rewire my rear windshield wiper to shoot some junk in there, but the motor is awfully powerful for the situation, and it'd have to work all the time, so that idea actually sucks. But the storage idea is good. Could just hang a thing in there like when you wanna put a dangerous fish in a tank with other fish and not have it kill them all.

[signalautosupra]

yes water injection kits are very popular with the racing community also they use ethenaol injetion.

The main function of these systems is to suppress detonation caused by high temperature and pressure developed within the combustion chamber when the effective compression ratio has
been taken beyond the auto-ignition point by either a turbo or a supercharger.
Water, with its high latent heat content, is extremely effective for controlling
not only the onset of detonation but also the production of oxides of nitrogen in
the modern leanburn engines.

[signalautosupra]

thanks svoboy for the info on this site..

i got 48mpg out of my civic this week.........mostly pushing it stead of driving lol

[SVOboy]

thanks svoboy for the info on this site..

i got 48mpg out of my civic this week.........mostly pushing it stead of driving lol

Hot dang I am jealous, I'll be trying to hit those numbers after a transmission swap, hope I can get there. In any case, about your above post: Does that mean the best thing to do it do look for a performance water injection mechanism? Is it possible that they are not set up in the way that will help with mileage or does it not matter? And if it does is there a way to tweak the thing into acting the way we want. Great explanation by the way, you know your stuff pretty solidly.

PS: Are you running this by any chance?

[signalautosupra]

no i just keep tire's inflated and i have a 92 civic vx with vtec-e for getting up hills. 87 hp is alittle rough, but it's a 2100lbs car so that makes a diffrent. i also have a front lip that help deflects wind.

i need to reduce my wieght 245- 200 and drop the car 100lbs and i should get another 1mpg.

[signalautosupra]

car also has 170k on it and i'm getting a major tune up done on it next week.

[SVOboy]

Let us know what happens after the tune up, should be interesting to hear!

[signalautosupra]

Only engine i have seen this kit on it forced in duction and one has a 150 shot of no^2 the water injection would shoot the same time the no^2 did.

[signalautosupra]

Only engine i have seen this kit on it forced induction and one has a 150 shot of no^2 the water injection would shoot the same time the no^2 did.

[SVOboy]

That sounds pretty scary for me, as an mpg guy. Mehbe I'll ask my cousin, he boosts to 20 or 25 I think, but he doesn't use nos...

[Matt Timion]

I'll serve this file for a little while so everyone can download it. This is a step by step for creating one of these things. The author does not tell you how much of a gain you get in terms of mpg though.

http://www.gassavers.org/node/90

[SVOboy]

Yep, so pretty good. Can you emaill the guy who did it for some numbers on mpg and stuff? Also, fill up every five days, gosh, I wonder how many miles that is...

[Matt Timion]

Yep, so pretty good. Can you emaill the guy who did it for some numbers on mpg and stuff? Also, fill up every five days, gosh, I wonder how many miles that is...

I actually got that file from the yahoo group BetterMPG. I'll see what I can find about the guy who wrote it.

[Matt Timion]

http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1979_September_October/Water_Injection_Wizardry

[SVOboy]

http://users.frii.com/maphill/wi.html

[chasgood]

I think there used to be ads for kits in the back of Popular Science. likely in the late 70's too.

[SVOboy]

I think there used to be ads for kits in the back of Popular Science. likely in the late 70's too.

Haha, seems like a hard thing to dig up a kit for if it is indeed that old, but it doesn't look so hard to fabricate.

[chasgood]

Ok you guys. Can we take the info from the past and modernize it. Find a newer better way to get water vapor into the engine. maybe something like in my first post. Something like the room humidifiers use. I'm thinking a fog like vapor of water will work better than tiny droplets drom a spray nozzle.

[SVOboy]

Ok you guys. Can we take the info from the past and modernize it. Find a newer better way to get water vapor into the engine. maybe something like in my first post. Something like the room humidifiers use. I'm thinking a fog like vapor of water will work better than tiny droplets drom a spray nozzle.

Do you know how the thing actually vaporizes? This is what I am wondering, I know that it is really the only thing on a humifier that would require power, and the problem might be that addition of a powered element, and it's ability to withstand constant heat and use. I think the principle behind the old stuff that we need to keep with is that it is only injecting the wudder when the throttle is open, and that is why vacuum in the droplets works, when it might be hard to do some electrical thing to signal the humifier to draw and process its wudder, but I am not sure, I will look for some newer sources of info and how the turbo kits do it.

[Matt Timion]

Do you know how the thing actually vaporizes? This is what I am wondering, I know that it is really the only thing on a humifier that would require power, and the problem might be that addition of a powered element, and it's ability to withstand constant heat and use. I think the principle behind the old stuff that we need to keep with is that it is only injecting the wudder when the throttle is open, and that is why vacuum in the droplets works, when it might be hard to do some electrical thing to signal the humifier to draw and process its wudder, but I am not sure, I will look for some newer sources of info and how the turbo kits do it.

it actually might be totally possible to wire it up to the TPS sensor. The tps sensor detects when the throttle is open or closed. Hook up the TPS sensor to a relay that turns the humidifier on or off.

perhaps Diemaster can help with the electronics here. A humidifier isn't too complex. I'm sure if we took one apart we could EASILY get it to fit inside the air intake tube. Perhaps it can even be wired to the a switched power source that comes on when car starts.

[SVOboy]

<a href=http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html target=_blank>Wudder Injection</a>

Water injection systems are predominantly useful in forced induction (turbocharged or supercharged), internal combustion engines. Only in extreme cases such as very high compression ratios, very low octane fuel or too much ignition advance can it benefit a normally aspirated engine. The system has been around for a long time since it was already used in some World War II aircraft engines.

Does this mean bad things for the average car driver like us? I dunno much about advanced timing, so enlighten me if it is an issure, please.

[SVOboy]

<a href=http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html target=_blank>Wudder Injection</a>

As I collect them, I'll put some more links up here.

[chasgood]

I'm sure the thing is electric. My guess is it uses DC current so should be easy to power in a car. Using the throttle sensor is a great idea. If we could varry the vapor output to match the throttle it would be perfect.

[SVOboy]

I don't see what that isn't possible! We need to do some diagnosis I spose and rip apart a humidifier.

[Matt Timion]

http://better-mileage.com/memberadx.html

http://better-mileage.com/memberbonuswateradx.html

http://better-mileage.com/membervaporadx.html

I havn't had much time to look at this, but it seems to be what you're looking for.

[dfoxengr]

with water/alc injection kits, how do you go about tuning for better mileage? less fuel? timing retarded?

[SVOboy]

General bump for fresh ideas.

[JustMe]

Do-It-Yourself Water Injection
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me3.html

These guys were selling bags of water for $30 that you were supposed to place in air filter box. You could make your own cheaper.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ATG/#force
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ATG/jcwhitney.txt
Maybe if you set water with gelatin it would stay in place.

[SVOboy]

I'm thinking about doing water injection by drilling a hole on the throttle body and letting the vacuum do the work.

[diamondlarry]

I'm thinking about doing water injection by drilling a hole on the throttle body and letting the vacuum do the work.

Are you thinking of putting it before the throttle plate or after? If it is after, you'll get the most vaccum when you need it the least and the least when you need it most.

[SVOboy]

If it is after, you'll get the most vaccum when you need it the least and the least when you need it most.

I know this, I was thinking right before the butterfly. I might just set it up with a windshield washer pump and a fuel injector, then set it up with some sort of variable load valve that works off of a pressure sensor coming off the MAP line. I dunno though.

[diamondlarry]

I might just set it up with a windshield washer pump and a fuel injector, then set it up with some sort of variable load valve that works off of a pressure sensor coming off the MAP line. I dunno though.
I think I like the sound of that idea. I've heard of the washer pump thing before.

[Capcom]

Windshield washer pumps probably don't last too long.

[diamondlarry]

Windshield washer pumps probably don't last too long.
Actually, a small inverter and a fish aquarium pump might last longer. The problem is that it may not put out enough volume.

[maxc]

A lot of water injection systems flow to much. All you need is 1 to 3ml per min with a 2.0 liter engine at low engine speeds. Thats a .001 orifise or less at 10 to 17 inch of manifold vacuum pull. Or no.28 needle at medical supply store.

[mikefxu]

I know this, I was thinking right before the butterfly. I might just set it up with a windshield washer pump and a fuel injector, then set it up with some sort of variable load valve that works off of a pressure sensor coming off the MAP line. I dunno though.
Search on the internet someone already tried the injector trick and it will corrode and not open.

[SVOboy]

I've heard injectors are too big anyway, since I posted that more than half a year ago or whatev, :p, my learning curve is embarassing.

[mikefxu]

Opps didn't see how old post was.

[basjoos]

High humidity improves mileage for two reasons. The water molecule (atomic weight 18) is much lighter than nitrogen (28), oxygen (32) or carbon dioxide (44) molecules, so if there is lots of moisture in the atmosphere, it reduces the density of the air your car is plowing through. Also water molecules in the air displace some of the oxygen molecules that your engine would normally be combusting. So high humidity has the effect of reducing the amount of oxygen that your ICE can suck in, which also reduces the amount of gasoline burned and the amount of power produced by the ICE.

They used water injection in some supercharged WWII aircraft, but there is was mainly used under steady state (fixed throttle) conditions with about 80% to 90% throttle. Aircraft engines are operated very differently from the average car ICE, since aircraft engines are run closer the full power most of the time and the RPM's remain more constant. Unlike car ICE's that are run at low power settings most of the time and the RPM's are often rapidly changing.

A method to set up a constant high humidity entering the intake manifold may help to improve mileage, but a water injection (spraying jets of water into the intake) wouldn't. The peizo room humidifier may work provided it can produce enough mist to keep up with the ICE's air intake demands and if the electricity required to operate the peizo doesn't eat up your energy savings via heavier demands on your alternator. The peizo will also need to adjust its output to your ICE's air demands, otherwise if you spend some time idling in traffic with the peizo running full tilt, you may end up killing the engine with excess water.

[katman]

Every small block Chevy I've ever owned has ALWAYS run better in the wet damp weather!

[cheapybob]

I talked to my automotive engineer friend, and come to find out that the O2 sensor is going to see the additional oxygen from the water vapor and add more fuel to match it. The Mother Earth stuff was before the days of O2 sensors. With an EFIE and wideband O2 sensor it might be doable, he said.

[maxc]

I talked to my automotive engineer friend, and come to find out that the O2 sensor is going to see the additional oxygen from the water vapor and add more fuel to match it. The Mother Earth stuff was before the days of O2 sensors. With an EFIE and wideband O2 sensor it might be doable, he said. So what your friend is saying is water is being split into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydorgen is being burnt and there is oxygen still left over or there is no spitting and just air in the water is released?

[cheapybob]

No, he was basically saying that the O2 sensor would think the engine was running lean and add more fuel. If max fuel economy is your goal, that would be a bad thing, so you'd need a device like the EFIE to fake the readings so more fuel doesn't get added.

[SVOboy]

I don't know if the o2 sensor picks up oxygen that's bonded into a water molecule, *shrug*

[maxc]

I don't know if the o2 sensor picks up oxygen that's bonded into a water molecule, *shrug*I'll do a test sunday to see if the injector duty cycle increases with water injection.

[cheapybob]

I'm sure my buddy will be interested in the results.

Actually, the way it went was HE suggested water injection to allow me to run leaner without causing problems, but someone else said it would cause the O2 sensor to think it was lean and add more fuel, and he said that could be possible, and we started discussing a setup like an EFIE with a wideband O2 to avoid the problem. He was saying it would be necessary and ok to add quite a bit of water to keep things cool. I don't pretend to understand it, myself. I sort of dropped it because I don't really want to pile lots of money into it that won't get a reasonable payback in fuel savings.

I was hoping to do something low tech like using a K & N air filter, and instead of oiling it, keeping it moist with water and letting my 190f+ intake air absorb it, but he seemed to think it would take a lot more water than that to cool things enough to allow me to safely run lean without burning valves, etc.

[maxc]

I'm sure my buddy will be interested in the results.

Actually, the way it went was HE suggested water injection to allow me to run leaner without causing problems, but someone else said it would cause the O2 sensor to think it was lean and add more fuel, and he said that could be possible, and we started discussing a setup like an EFIE with a wideband O2 to avoid the problem. He was saying it would be necessary and ok to add quite a bit of water to keep things cool. I don't pretend to understand it, myself. I sort of dropped it because I don't really want to pile lots of money into it that won't get a reasonable payback in fuel savings.

I was hoping to do something low tech like using a K & N air filter, and instead of oiling it, keeping it moist with water and letting my 190f+ intake air absorb it, but he seemed to think it would take a lot more water than that to cool things enough to allow me to safely run lean without burning valves, etc. Not oiling it might cause some problems? The egr valve is a good place to injected it too as long as its working properly.:rolleyes:

[Bunger]

I've done a fair share of research on water injection in the past and found that you should be able to increase your mileage a decent amount. The reason being is that the water vapor in the combustion chamber absorbs a good amount of heat when converting to steam, which will then increase cylinder pressure, this does add some delay to the combustion process and thus lengthens the time pressure is applied to the piston. The overall effect greater torque, allowing you to cruise at the same speed with less throttle angle / fuel. Basically it increases the thermal efficiency of the engine.

[JanGeo]

How about just spraying a lot of water in a "water box" in front of the intake and the excess water would just settle out and drain back into the supply bottle. At small throttle openings not much air is pulled through the box but at full throttle more air flows through it taking more of the spray. Used a presurized bottle and pump the excess water back into the bottle under pressure. All that is needed is a small pin hole spray.

[cheapybob]

A little in the egr tube works fine. About 5 or 6 inches before it enters the intake. I stress "a little" "previous posts"

How will it affect the O2 sensor reading, if at all?

Was there any increase in MPG by adding water via the EGR?

How do you calculate the optimal amount of water to add?

I was thinking of using a small atomizer and spraying it at the underside of the K & N and maybe even having a return feed at the bottom of the airbox. Wouldn't a wet K & N filter similarly to an oiled one?

I think the humidifier setup will end up using a lot of power. They basically boil a small amount of water, I think.

[JanGeo]

no the ultrasonically atomize it however you should keep in mind the mineral content of the water - bubbling it is better than spraying it into the engine.

[Ryland]

mineral content of the water can be taken care of by useing distilled water, and you can collect distilled water (with a bit of soot) out of your exaust system, the humidity in the air is averages out to be nearly equal to the amount of fuel in the air, so for every gallon of fuel used, you are running around a gallon of water thru your engine as well, if you are adding more water to your intake air, that water is going out the exaust pipe, using a heat pipe in the exaust pipe should alow you to condence some water as the exaust exits, you will still have to fill up your distilled water tank, but I would guess this would dubble the miles per gallon of water used, then you simply filter out the solids and you are all set!

I would guess that the electronic vaporizer has an osolator to vibrate the quartz, altho that is a compleat guess, but really, something as simple as a old carburator with water fed in to it linked up to the throttle body, play around with the jet size a little to get the perfect mix at any engine speed.

what about the lawn mower testing? set up that same lawn mower with a humidifer next to it's air intake and see how long it will run.

[krousdb]

Very interesting idea about lawnmower testing. I havent seen nortonpro around lately though.

[ZugyNA]

LaPointe tested water injection to reduce power (test engine).

I tested 2% injection and found a power loss and no mpg gain.

All that might work would be steam...by running a line around the exhaust?

[JanGeo]

Yes the Ultrasonic vaporizers have a piezo electric transducer driven by high voltage high frequency signal to vibrate the water molecules into a mist and they do not take a lot of power since the transducer is very efficient - maybe 10's of watts not hundreds.

The steam idea is not going to work because you want water droplets in the intake that convert to steam and increase combustion pressure - they probably also cool the piston and walls and in so doing also increase pressure in the chamber on the power stroke. You could probably just run on water vapor for a little while and get a small quantity of energy out of the engine without any fuel injected. Ever hear of the 6 cycle engine? 4 stoke gas and 2 stokes water injection for cooling and heat to energy conversion.

Another thing to remember to prevent rusting in the engine only inject water when the engine is hot and not before shutting down.

[ZugyNA]

The water injection thing tends to attract people...I know I got into it. All that free power from steam. But I'm doubting that liquid injection (drip or spray) works....except to cool turbos.

I think maybe liquid water removes too much heat from the combustion process?

Feel free to prove me wrong.

I'm wanting to test routing the PCV flow around the exhaust in a copper tube and injecting a very small flow of water to also provide steam (vacuum). Possibly also try injecting some gas (vacuum).

A PCV jar is a GOOD thing to use if you are testing water injection...keeps the water out of the oil to some extent.

[n0rt0npr0]

lol! I'm such a slacker! I still have to do the winter/summer fuel testing too :rolleyes:
I have plenty equipment to measure ambient relative humidity compared to what the humidfier is shooting out into the mower intake. What I don't have is any humidifying device. Yard sales? And what sort of humidifier should I source?
~Will

Very interesting idea about lawnmower testing. I havent seen nortonpro around lately though.

[SVOboy]

You and your slacking, :p

Anyway, I'm in to here what you find out, though I have no idea about humidifiers. You could boil some wudder in front of the intake, :p

[n0rt0npr0]

I know! :p
And I think boiling some water is a decent idea, I could devise a cardboard "tent" to entrap and direct the charged air into the intake.
Since my mower is a mulcher, it produces a helluva lot of wind, so I'd just have to securely situate the hotplate and pot of water above the windstorm coming out from under the sides. Then also keep it away from any vibrations...

[SVOboy]

I'm so clever.