I hate my Civic

[psyshack]

man ooo man,,, I could not for the life of me get the Civic on its game today for the drive home. No amount of P&G,,, fas'ing,,, distance drafting.... Nothing worked! Im fighting for 46 MPG for most of the way home. 46 MPG for a day with just a southeast 3 mph head wind. Temps in the mid 80's. And a car as smooth as glass,,, and it would'nt put out. I came home and jacked its worthless over priced Honda *** 3' in the air and then dropped the jack on it!!!! I wanted to take a masions bar to it!!! The trip home should have been a easy 52 MPG run.

I think Honda has **** well lost its way. If this car dosent settle down on me Im going to trade its over priced worthless sheet metal in on a I4, 5mt Fusion,,, and match its worthless over priced sh***t metal to a freaking ford.

I swear Hondas marketing college numb nuts made this car. And Im postive its over all worthless MPG is why we dont have any other members trying to get good MPG out of a marketing college,, boy greed fest.

Im the only only one beating a dead fricking horse. Honda needs *** whoopin over this car......

Big whoop it will run with if not beat a EP3 last gen Si. The tranny sucks,,,, and to keep a r-18 in its so called vtec at 1.5L is a joke! Honda needs to pull there head out! Im just about ready to send this car back to Ohio and ask that Honda never desigen or builds a car in the USA. Who ever OK'ed this car for production needs to meet me on my front porch.... I bet they wet themsleves and claim they are just ponds in a college boy war. Just like the idiot Nazi's....
__________________

[rh77]

Well, if you have to sell it under book value...

I'm here to help :thumbup: :D

At any rate, I hear ya. The new Civics aren't what they used to be (I miss my '97 DX)...

But today was also a steamer (at least up here). IATs were pretty high and power just wasn't there -- had to give-in to quite a bit of speed loss on hills. At least your 1.8 pollutes less. :)

Regarding the Ford Fusion -- I just rented one and drove about 400+ miles. You may want to reconsider. The first rental was brand new (about 2 months ago) -- drove great, good FE. The accelerated aging of rentals shows quite a bit of wear at 17K miles. Last weekend, on the second rental, the front suspension seemed to age BADLY...if you hit a pothole, it felt like the whole engine and transaxle bounced on underinflated basketballs. Definitely don't go for the automatic -- ratios WAY off and the gear selector had D and L for 5 forward gears -- what happened to choice???

Not to mention the electrical gremlins -- unlocking the doors randomly (nobody was close to the switch during the malfunction) and the turn signals started blinking randomly during one point of the trip. Not a good sign of predicted reliability.

Honda has a good product -- it might not be great for the hypermiler, but for the masses, it helps with overall consumption and emissions. Whatever's made for the American market today isn't going to cut it for FE out of the box.

If it's any consolation, your GasLog shows an awesome effort. Get back on that horse tomorrow...

RH77

[mrmad]

Considering your Civic is probably bigger then the 90's Accord, I think the mpg you are getting is pretty good.

[psyshack]

Considering your Civic is probably bigger then the 90's Accord, I think the mpg you are getting is pretty good.


My wife turned in a 38.5 mpg tank today in her I4, 5at, 05, Accord EX Sedan. SHE DOESNT HYPERMILE. And she fights Tulsa traffic I would'nt take a job for. As it is Im about to quit my Tulsa job,,, and Im a half mile away from hwy 169....

I screwed up real bad,,, I knew I should have bought the Accord LXse, I4, 5mt sedan for the same money..... I can get 44 mpg out of the at Accord no problem.... I figure I could do about the same with a mt Accord as Im doing with a looser Civic....

Honda screwed the world with the R-18... It lacks lean burns and its sp. cats that the oil burning Accord will get.... But hey,,, they have worthless IMA.... The bone heads....

[omgwtfbyobbq]

My wife turned in a 38.5 mpg tank today in her I4, 5at, 05, Accord EX Sedan. SHE DOESNT HYPERMILE. And she fights Tulsa traffic I would'nt take a job for. As it is Im about to quit my Tulsa job,,, and Im a half mile away from hwy 169....

I screwed up real bad,,, I knew I should have bought the Accord LXse, I4, 5mt sedan for the same money..... I can get 44 mpg out of the at Accord no problem.... I figure I could do about the same with a mt Accord as Im doing with a looser Civic....

Honda screwed the world with the R-18... It lacks lean burns and its sp. cats that the oil burning Accord will get.... But hey,,, they have worthless IMA.... The bone heads....

It's not about lean burn, it's about gearing. My V6 auto Camry is the same way compared to the I4s because of the gearing. Manufacturers these days design cars so there really isn't much variance between them. They'll have shorter ratios on a I4 so it accelerates better, and taller ratios on a V6 so it gets better mileage. In your case, the MT Civic has a 5th*R&P=2.92 with a 1668cc engine and 195/60R15 wheels, while the AT five speed 05 Accord has a 5th*R&P=2.51 with a 2354cc engine and 205/60R16 wheels. So, for all intents and purposes, even though the Accord's engine is ~1.41 times larger than the Civic's, The Civic's engine is rotating 1.23 times faster, meaning that Civic only has a displacement advantage of ~1.14 cruising on the highway, which evidently only results in a ~10% (or less) difference in mileage. Out of all the Accord models, the 5sp AT would probably be the best highway cruiser, since it has the tallest gear ratio in OD. :thumbup:

[96hb]

Dang calm down man. Honda makes some of the best cars on the planet, IMHO, and you are getting lots more mpg over the EPA rating, so what are you crying for? If you want Prius mileage, buy a Prius. And get used to the fact that mileage will vary from tank to tank. I have been as low as 46 and as high as 50mpg in my little hatchback. It's not the end of the world. :rolleyes:

[88HF]

selling? do I hear owner financing? j/j I wish they reproduced the Crx.

[Spule 4]

I must be missing somethng, those numbers look good to me. The new Civics are much bigger and nicer than the older Civics, and a bit more heavy.

I think we forget how small, buzzy and underpowered the previous Civics are/were. I never onwed one for these reasons, worked on several, and always thought they were not as nice as the Corolla. Now that has changed.

[cfg83]

mrmad -

Considering your Civic is probably bigger then the 90's Accord, I think the mpg you are getting is pretty good.

Bingo. If you ever see an early 90's Accord alongside a current Civic, they are very close in size. A 1993 Accord weighs 2733 lbs, while Psy's Civic is 2740.

CarloSW2

[CO ZX2]

psy. Careful what you say. Were you in reverse?

He says it drinks gas. Granted he drives as fast as he can with it and not get tickets. Also runs the A/C alot. But in his words 27 mpg sucks. I dont think I could get that in my Civic going backwards at redline. :)

Seriously, maybe you had more wind than you thought. Slight headwinds can make a big difference. Up here the weather stations are on top of mountains sometimes 20 miles away and the internet weather reports bear little resemblance to the local real weather. Wind direction especially, often are directly opposite.

I like a man who cares. Most would just have another beer.

[psyshack]

Well, if you have to sell it under book value...

I'm here to help :thumbup: :D

At any rate, I hear ya. The new Civics aren't what they used to be (I miss my '97 DX)...

But today was also a steamer (at least up here). IATs were pretty high and power just wasn't there -- had to give-in to quite a bit of speed loss on hills. At least your 1.8 pollutes less. :)

Regarding the Ford Fusion -- I just rented one and drove about 400+ miles. You may want to reconsider. The first rental was brand new (about 2 months ago) -- drove great, good FE. The accelerated aging of rentals shows quite a bit of wear at 17K miles. Last weekend, on the second rental, the front suspension seemed to age BADLY...if you hit a pothole, it felt like the whole engine and transaxle bounced on underinflated basketballs. Definitely don't go for the automatic -- ratios WAY off and the gear selector had D and L for 5 forward gears -- what happened to choice???

Not to mention the electrical gremlins -- unlocking the doors randomly (nobody was close to the switch during the malfunction) and the turn signals started blinking randomly during one point of the trip. Not a good sign of predicted reliability.

Honda has a good product -- it might not be great for the hypermiler, but for the masses, it helps with overall consumption and emissions. Whatever's made for the American market today isn't going to cut it for FE out of the box.

If it's any consolation, your GasLog shows an awesome effort. Get back on that horse tomorrow...

RH77

Just got back from the local Ford dealer. They don't have a I4, 5MT Fusion. And there doesn't seem to be one in the state. :( They there for felt they couldn't even quote me. I found this very strange with Fords huge push right now on Fusion. All they wanted to talk about was the basic rebate crap. That wont cut it for me... Im a near invoice or under invoice type purchaser. Fusion would be a under invoice type deal. And they know Accord can be had right now way under invoice. :) I didn't mention that the Civic was up for trade. Approached them as a outright purchase. Ive purchased four new cars from them over the years and only traded one in. Im sure they knew something was up but didn't push it. They know we have the Accord, Civic and Rangealturd. And I honestly think there still mad at me for not buying the Rangealturd from them. One of the few drawbacks of small town life. :)

As for gremlins. The Civic has them. Its funny you bring up the Fusion auto locking the doors. My Civic has started doing that. I can be washing the car, waxing it,,, changing the oil or just setting on the front porch and you will hear it lock the doors. The keys can be in the ignition, on the hook in the house or setting on a table on the porch. And then out of the blue you will hear it lock them.

OOO well
psy

[psyshack]

It's not about lean burn, it's about gearing. My V6 auto Camry is the same way compared to the I4s because of the gearing. Manufacturers these days design cars so there really isn't much variance between them. They'll have shorter ratios on a I4 so it accelerates better, and taller ratios on a V6 so it gets better mileage. In your case, the MT Civic has a 5th*R&P=2.92 with a 1668cc engine and 195/60R15 wheels, while the AT five speed 05 Accord has a 5th*R&P=2.51 with a 2354cc engine and 205/60R16 wheels. So, for all intents and purposes, even though the Accord's engine is ~1.41 times larger than the Civic's, The Civic's engine is rotating 1.23 times faster, meaning that Civic only has a displacement advantage of ~1.14 cruising on the highway, which evidently only results in a ~10% (or less) difference in mileage. Out of all the Accord models, the 5sp AT would probably be the best highway cruiser, since it has the tallest gear ratio in OD. :thumbup:


Gear ratios and such do play a major roll. But the Accord and Civic basically cant be compared. In the above manor. Sure there are elements that are true.

The Accords ivtec is a diff. animal then that of the Civics. The Accord's IMO is better. And there is the 5th gear/lockup in the AT. It will hit vtec and roar to life. And not complain a bit about the tach sailing up. It has the ability to go from normal to high output and adjust cam timing. Couple that with the lock ability of the tranny and you have something. But playing with the lockup and low rpms has its disablitys. Ours locks up between 45mph and 47mph. One can then drift it back down to right at 42mph and keep it locked up. MPG can get stupid high at this point. But let it drop any lower and mpg goes to the gutter. At that point you have the ECU, TCU and ivtec at there lower limits. And it appear they go into default mode. And the engine isn't laboring at all. Do this in a MT, I4 Accord and you can hold on to the great mpg. The lower gear helps alot.

The Civic's R-18 on the other hand was originally designed to be the next VX. Its my understanding the lean burn code is in the ECU. Its just turned off. Thus to date it doesn't look like Hondadata will ever make or mod a R-18 ECU. Nothing more is needed other than the code to be allowed to run and the Cats in place. And its my opinion the cats are there. Just look at the heads single exhaust port dumping into Cats right off the head. It goes into a 1.5L fuel air ratio combustion pattern when in low load between 1500rpm and 3500rpm. The 1.5L is valve control trickery. Couple that with the two stage intake manifold with long or short paths. There on to something. Then throw in a 10.5:1 compression ratio with piston oilers on regular unleaded. There is alot of crap going on under the hood. A over all higher gear helps this engine stay in its low load config. And its a major reason why the AT's dont get the mpg the MT's get. The lower torque of the R-18 really hurts its self in this area with a AT.

This has been tested. A buddy of mine owns a 06 silver Civic Coupe. http://www.psyshack.com/twoofakind.jpg
We used a section of road we both have driven a lot. Used the SG with the same setting in both cars. Mine a MT his a AT. We used 57 mph as our cruising test point. At 57 mph mines turning 2500 rpm. His at 57 mph turns 2000 rpm. As seen on the dash tach and the SG. At this point my instant mpg is 60 to 62 mpg. His 57 to 59 mpg. Humm his is wanting to act like the Accord. So we then bring his tach up to 2500 rpm. Yep speed comes up. But mpg goes down because we have now entered into aero load. The SG is very clear on this. Both cars had 44 psi in the tires. Now was the a TEST!!! As some would like to think. "NO" But it did explain alot to us as to why his car barely gets over epa. Hes not a hard driver. Truth be known. Hes a mild hypermiler. I just reframe from telling him that. :) Thus it became clear to us that the taller gear could be hurting him. He has since moved to Germany and took his Civic with him. He is home right now. Hes a bomb maker for the US goverment. :) ( cool job :) ) And has told me hes glad we did a bit of testing. But is still is hard to get much over epa mpg in it. This is a common complaint of AT owners.

psy

[MnFocus]

The Civic's R-18 on the other hand was originally designed to be the next VX. Its my understanding the lean burn code is in the ECU. Its just turned off. Thus to date it doesn't look like Hondadata will ever make or mod a R-18 ECU. Nothing more is needed other than the code to be allowed to run and the Cats in place.
psy

psy , if in fact the VX code is there (most important the actual code in a 'known' ) it should be able to be unlocked and usable shouldn't it ? Someone with a laptop and software would be able to get this done or better yet a dyno tune for FE ? - whether or not at this stage in your ownership ,it's worth it to you ? It will take finding out which software can read the Honda ECU - since I've been a Ford-a-phile for some time now ,I'm not in tune with other manufaturer's tuning . I may be very off-base . I also believe it could mess up any future warranty issues . I'd also recommend researching a bit more before choosing a Fusion ...but that's me ...

[psyshack]

Dang calm down man. Honda makes some of the best cars on the planet, IMHO, and you are getting lots more mpg over the EPA rating, so what are you crying for? If you want Prius mileage, buy a Prius. And get used to the fact that mileage will vary from tank to tank. I have been as low as 46 and as high as 50mpg in my little hatchback. It's not the end of the world. :rolleyes:

I wont calm down.

Hondas aren't as good as they use to be. So let me run down the warranty issues of my two Hondas.

05 Accord.
Center consoul lid and trays replaced.
Dash came loose from firewall. Fixed
Engine Hood bows up in the sun making for hood to fender seams big enough to stick your fingers in. Honda will replace the hood,, but not the vin/serial number tag on the hood. Its not been fixed.
Top panel on center stack of dash. You can see the plastic molded injection support pattern. Has a waffle look. Honda wont replace.
Passenger air bag cover in the dash has sagged to the point you could feed a cat milk out of it. Honda wont replace.
All four door panels flex out when a window in rolled up and seated. I refer to it as breathing door panels. Honda wouldn't fix this. I guess its ok for there cars to flex like GM junk. So I welded strap metal to the inner door panels. Door panels dont move now when the window seats. Turns out this was the first step in Hondas so called ACE body design elements and cheaper construction. Covered up under the shield of better pedestrian safety. The Civics loaded up with this BS.

06 Civic.
Sagged right rear spring. Fixed
Right rear tire worn on the inner edge. Alignment issue. Cant be fixed by Honda. Theres not a problem. I fixed it. Of note Coupes have this problem in spades. Canada plant really blew it at one point. Honda,,, theres not a problem. Honda replaced both rear tires.
Trunk liners on each side replaced.
Power steering pump replaced. The leak turned out to be more than a fitting.
Cowling between engine hood, wipers and windshield came loose. Replaced twice. Broke a third time. I fixed it.
Dash insert around top pod/speed-o popped up. Fixed by a dealer. Done so bad I made them replace it again and the top panel of the dash. They left tool marks all over the dash top panel. Idiots! Then a Honda regional guy swore up and down my 8th gen was a modded 7th gen. I about kicked his worthless college boy *** when he bent over to check the door tag. My service adviser jumped in front of me. knowing I wouldn't kick a lady.... grrrrr. :mad: I was going to kick his stupid butt into next week. :thumbup:
ECU has been replaced.
I replaced both rear wheel bearing. The right one failed. I just couldnt stand the thought of another dealer warranty issue. I ordered them from Majestic and installed. Yes I replaced both. Wheel bearing are like light bulbs. One fails in a two light fixture. Replace both.

So don't tell ME about Honda quality!!! Ive had more issues with these two cars than the sum total of the last five new cars Ive purchased. For a bit of contrast. My mother owns a CRX Si. It only had one warranty issue. My father owns a 4th gen Accord EX, I4, AT. It never had a warranty issue. Park either of our cars beside them and its like night and day. Honda quality use to be a bench mark. Its clear. Hondas idea of quality and consumers idea of quality have been lowered.

Don't tell me about tank or segment diff's. My daily grind hasn't changed more than 8 miles of road in 20 years. 30 miles of my daily grind are unchanged. Diff. being I use to go to downtown Tulsa to TRMC off the IDL. And now I go to east Tulsa off the Crap ( Creek ) Nation Turnpike. I understand the road conditions, traffic,,, weather and wind better than most. When you live in Oklahoma.... you understand wind at a level most cant even begin to think about.

If I wanted a PII or a HCHII I would have gotten one. And Im very clear on the mpg diff. concerns between the cars and mine.

I was also taught by my father the tactics of FE driving as a child. Yes Ive been driving since the age of six years old. My father thought it to be imperative that his children by god knew how to drive. We where schooled in the art of FE driving, high speed driving, emergency maneuvers. Driving in weather conditions of all types. To this day its a continuing education. Hes in his early 70's and still one of the best drivers Ive ever seen. A smoothness thats mind binding. And a ability to make a car,,,any car a extension of his mind, feet, hands and butt. I to this day marvel at his ability to take his Accord out and just smoke the crap out of folks at a auto-x. Or yank 50 mpg out of it at will.

maybe this post will give you some insight into my drive to do what I do to the best of my ability when I choose to do it. And understand why Im so very critical of my cars and how they put out.....

psy

[psyshack]

psy , if in fact the VX code is there (most important the actual code in a 'known' ) it should be able to be unlocked and usable shouldn't it ? Someone with a laptop and software would be able to get this done or better yet a dyno tune for FE ? - whether or not at this stage in your ownership ,it's worth it to you ? It will take finding out which software can read the Honda ECU - since I've been a Ford-a-phile for some time now ,I'm not in tune with other manufaturer's tuning . I may be very off-base . I also believe it could mess up any future warranty issues . I'd also recommend researching a bit more before choosing a Fusion ...but that's me ...

Thats the crux of the matter.

Hondadata is one of the leaders in Honda ECU retune's. You can send them your ECU and have it redone to there known specs. Or spec hardware and known dyno work and they return your ECU to you modded. The Accord's ECU responds to this very well. As does most older Civics, Accords, TSX, Teg's, TL's, S2000's,, on and on. Or you can buy there tuning stuff and go nuts with it. And many others out there. But when it comes to VX and R-18 ECU management. The doors industry wide slam shut.

So one thinks. Hey the R-18 has a 10.5:1 compression ratio. Heck thats super unleaded compression. WOW lets let this engine run right. Put 91 or 93 in it during the winter and it comes alive. Its like a diff. engine. With a SG you can see it advance the timing. It comes alive! Mpg holds for the given temps. Its a win, win. Then sumer comes and the bottom falls out. The car gets sluggish. MPG suffers. "Damn" wtf is going on? I feel rh77 and I know that current late model Hondas truly don't like high IAT temps. Sure a warm AIT helps in the winter as long as you don't push them above 105f and no more,,, period above 115f. Get up into the 120f to 130f areas and they get sluggish. And from a drivers stand point near useless.

I could go on here with coolant temps and my recent on going summer grill blocks and the resulting ITA temps. Its looking like engine coolant temps can be managed. But one needs to also manage the intake air temps. Hondas are very fussy *****es. They seem to want there nails and boobs done just right! So its looking like a CAI is needed for summer driving for max FE and or grill blocks. Damn what a pain in the arse. And heat soak of the intake system needs to be managed. What PITA! So we know there best ITA temps need to be 60f to 105f or there about.

Bottom line is,,, we know some of these parameters can be pushed to extremes in other cars. Hondas as a whole are picky. VX and R-18 don't respond the same as other cars. IE >>>> the ECU's that are truly black boxen in the automotive world. We know one can do bolt on mods to a VX mill and get some more power from it. Hell you can turbo it and get sick on it and it will respond to the point that the open top deck block and ECU become a real problem. Same with the R-18. The open top block can be delt with. Its called topping the block. Then Hondas are ready for insane HP gains. But theres not a cure for modding the stock ECU's. There special. Not easy to read or mod.

If I thought I could mod or cut loose lean burn in my R-18 it would be done. But as of yet ,,, the best in the world wont touch it. Kinda like VX. Dont you think?

psy

[Bill in Houston]

I wont calm down.

Hondas aren't as good as they use to be. So let me run down the warranty issues of my two Hondas. It's CLEARLY time for you to own a Ford.

[psyshack]

It's CLEARLY time for you to own a Ford.

And if they had a Focus with a knock off PI or PII hybrid system in it on the lot today. I probably would own one today. They did have a FEH. But I have no use for a over priced SUV.

psy

[MnFocus]

I see(read that know) you've put a lot of thought into this - that where you're frustration starts ! Just wondering if Hondata is possibly slamming that door shut because they don't believe there is enough interest in unlocking the FE potential or if they know it will create a whole nuther set of problems ? Quite possible that the VX coding could make those IAT extremes much worse that they are already ? Maybe a a group of 8th gen owners could set up a group tune/field test through Hondata? I'm just throwing my .02 out - I'm positive you've already brain stormed this simple thought out too . There has to be a way to tune this correctly and inexpensively . That requires time and patience ...which wears thin too quickly .

[psyshack]

I see(read that know) you've put a lot of thought into this - that where you're frustration starts ! Just wondering if Hondata is possibly slamming that door shut because they don't believe there is enough interest in unlocking the FE potential or if they know it will create a whole nuther set of problems ? Quite possible that the VX coding could make those IAT extremes much worse that they are already ? Maybe a a group of 8th gen owners could set up a group tune/field test through Hondata? I'm just throwing my .02 out - I'm positive you've already brain stormed this simple thought out too . There has to be a way to tune this correctly and inexpensively . That requires time and patience ...which wears thin too quickly .

No,,,, I think and Ive chatted with folks that have worked with Hondas lean burn alga/programing. Its a complex witch to sort out. I think in the R-18 its as simple as throwing a digital switch. BUT I dont think anybody knows the syntax of that switch. And one wrong key stroke and you have ruined the ecu. Honda is crafty with this stuff. I wish it was as simple as slaving in a wide band and finding the switch. But nobodys been able to do that yet because a wideband slave can only interpret what its fed and mod that data. If the input isnt seen as active you have nothing to put out/mod.

When my ECU failed and went into default mode. And didnt throw a cel. I purchased a back up ECU. $900 bucks! Honda replaced the oem one. But my gut told me. Buy a back up. Ive let some of who I think are the very best code readers and hackers look at it. There are things in there they cant explain,,, at all. So it sets in its static bag and I dont trust its root code. One thing I do know is it has the updated Honda flash. But the flash only pertains to Si, and R-18, At's,,, Yes Si and R-18 use the same basic code. Just there parms. in the fuel rails and stuff are diff. also the prams for say vtec collect signal info from other control devices to know which set of data points it should run. Its a smart hunk of code. The flash fixes the rpm hang in Si and part of whats known as lug bug in the R-18 AT. And a dead spot off idle in the R-18 AT. The rest of lug bug is fixed by a change in the routing of the serpentine belt. The result of the belt change and its idler is a shift in low order harmonics that set up. All because that stupid 5AT locks up to soon and cause's a harmonic and does not give over all better mpg. Even tho the tach and epa says it should.

Tricky stuff going on in a R-18 and I think Honda blew it by trying to make a EP3 out of a lean burn. Well that and its pork....

psy

[MnFocus]

Just thinking about the summer time IAT and *having* to switch to a cai to lower those temps into a usable range . Does the R-18 have a coolant heated intake manifold / throttle body ? If it does - possibly fabbing a valved coolant bypass may help- off for summer,on for winter . I know it worked to keep air inlet temps down on my SHO's 3.4l V8 . Again just throwing an idea out there .

[lindermant]

...but is still is hard to get much over epa mpg in it. This is a common complaint of AT owners.
psy

not from this AT equipped Civic owner :D (granted mine's an '05)

...06 Civic
Right rear tire worn on the inner edge. Alignment issue. Cant be fixed by Honda. Theres not a problem. I fixed it. Of note Coupes have this problem in spades. Canada plant really blew it at one point. Honda,,, theres not a problem. Honda replaced both rear tires...
psy

thanks for jogging my memory - I noticed slight wear on one of my rear tires and have been meaning to take it in to the dealer to see what they say.

[cfg83]

psyshack -

Would a used previous-generation Civic Coupe HX + manual transmission be a "good enough" Honda in your eyes? The problem would be finding one with low mileage, I think.

CarloSW2

[psyshack]

psyshack -

Would a used previous-generation Civic Coupe HX + manual transmission be a "good enough" Honda in your eyes? The problem would be finding one with low mileage, I think.

CarloSW2


I know where ones at. My buddy that owns the 06 Coupe. :) His wife drives a HX, MT. Last year they where produced. Its red and a very clean car. I for the life of me do not know why he didn't take it to Germany. It has like 40k miles on it and looks just like a brand new car. I would purchase it in a heart beat if it was ever to be offered for sale.

psy

[96hb]

OT but everytime I see your name I have to chuckle. Makes me think of pussy shack! :D LOL!~

[ma4t]

We love our Acura TSX. One of the best purchases we've ever made as far as a car.

If you don't like your Honda, get a Yaris or a Prius. But, shack, maybe you really are ready for a Ford.

m

[lovemysan]

I gave up on honda after ignorantly buying an 02 TL-s. Beautiful car, impossible transmission. And it turns out that honda builds a lot of crummy transmissions in a lot of different models. I hate honda simply because I lost 2 grand by buying one of there junkers. Need I mention the 5.5 hour valve adjustment. Really honda, get a life! I'll take my orphaned saturn and my chances. At least when it munches a motor mount it won't cost $200

[VetteOwner]

lol dont worry i hate your civic too :D



I gave up on honda after ignorantly buying an 02 TL-s. Beautiful car, impossible transmission. And it turns out that honda builds a lot of crummy transmissions in a lot of different models. I hate honda simply because I lost 2 grand by buying one of there junkers. Need I mention the 5.5 hour valve adjustment. Really honda, get a life! I'll take my orphaned saturn and my chances. At least when it munches a motor mount it won't cost $200




that is the main reason why i will never buy a honda or toyota. sure they may seem reliable untill they break then it cost an arm and a leg to pay for a part...:thumbdown: while my GM car and truck sure somehting may break but meh part is cheap so whoopey do. most of the time i can get to everyhting with standard hand tools so it takes alot less time.

lol my dad already has his mind set on buying a manual ford focus soon. epa says 37 mpg so i bet if you tried to save gas you could easily see
40+:D

[MnFocus]

lol my dad already has his mind set on buying a manual ford focus soon. epa says 37 mpg so i bet if you tried to save gas you could easily see
40+:D

Ahem ...or higher . Low to mid 40's seem to be effortless - 50's are within reach with some ...but if the build quality of a modern Civic is bothersome get ready for a shiz storm by buying a Ford ! :D Yes they have a bad rap Yes they are improving BUT they're quite a ways into the backwoods and its going to be awhile before the Quality is*truly* Job1 . As an aside "they have this real great rebate" :p

[lovemysan]

I had two nissans, then a sunfire, then a acura, now a saturn. Guess which one was the best, most dependable, lowest maintenance, least cost of ownership.

[VetteOwner]

maybe saturn? sinfire maybe if it had the 2.2L

[88HF]

An Acura TL is an elaborate vehicle if you can't afford 2K to fix a transmission then you probably shouldn't have been driving one. Its like a Cadillac, no one says its gonna be cheap to fix all that extra crap when it breaks, and it will. I had a friend who bought a new focus, then had two replacements before buying a nissan. He called it the Ford *ucked us.

[white90crxhf]

please tell me all that crap with the accord happened after you bought the civic. I am saddened to hear that their quality has been americanized. yes i do remember my father constanly fixing our GM's & Fords when i was young, he owns 4 hondas now.)

Just buy a used crx, parts may be expensive but i'd rather fix my car once a year than once a month. Or you could convince your mother to trade cars :)

[cfg83]

lovemysan -

I had two nissans, then a sunfire, then a acura, now a saturn. Guess which one was the best, most dependable, lowest maintenance, least cost of ownership.

Saturn!

CarloSW2

[psyshack]

Didn't drive the Civic last friday. I drove the Rangealturd.

Drove the Civic to the Ford dealer Sat. No Fusion.

Reset the ECU Sunday.

Drove the Civic in Monday. 55 mpg in, 53 mpg home. Hummmm

Drove the Civic in Tuesday. 56 mpg in until wrecks on hwy 169 shut down the good mpg. After beep and creep finished with 51 mpg. :(
Home sucked. Worked late. Traffic was light. Weather better than expected. 47 mpg. :(

Its like Indian slot machines concerning the Civic.

psy

[psyshack]

please tell me all that crap with the accord happened after you bought the civic. I am saddened to hear that their quality has been americanized. yes i do remember my father constanly fixing our GM's & Fords when i was young, he owns 4 hondas now.)

Just buy a used crx, parts may be expensive but i'd rather fix my car once a year than once a month. Or you could convince your mother to trade cars :)

We purchased the Accord in May 2005. Then the Civic December 2005. All was fine until Accord hit 30k miles and Civic hit 10k miles.

psy

[96hb]

I don't know what you guys are doing to your cars, but IMO Honda's are the most reliable cars on the road. I have owned 2 Accord's and 2 Civic's and had no problems whatsoever out of any of them, outside of normal maintenance. I even beat the hell out of my last Civic (93 coupe) on a daily basis, blew a headgasket at 170k miles in the middle of nowhere, drove it about 20 miles smoking like a banshee (it still got me home), replaced hg, resurfaced head, and good as new. My current hatch has 171k miles on it and still regularly gets 47-50mpg. These cars can take a beating and keep on going well passed 200k miles. How many Ford's or Chevy's can you say that about? And parts for Honda's are not expensive. WTF? Especially Civic's and Accord's. And they are so easy to work on, do the work yourself! Of course the higher end Acura's are a different story. That is more of a luxury car than econobox Civic. And I see you are regularly getting mpg in the 50's, so IMHO, you should just hush and be satisfied. What are you expecting, 80mpg out of that heavy pig? If you want that, go buy a Metro and have fun fixing things on it weekly. Or drive that awesome Rangler that you speak so affecionately about. :rolleyes:

[ma4t]

I complained about my Mazda - it's made by Ford. It had electrical problems Sometimes it would start but not go into gear. Sometimes, my headlights wouldn't work. Then it would pop random fuses. I carried a box of spare fuses for when they burned out. Did I mention it had the worst case of static electricity I've ever seen in a car?

Finally, we went to tow a Uhaul trailer and the guy from the store came running after me down the street. "Your car's on fire!!!!" Yeah, I freaked. Turns out, the amateur who installed the non-Mazda towing package botched the wiring, and bare wires were touching bare metal in the tail lamp housing.

I shut the engine off, disconnected the battery, and they installed new wiring so I could tow the trailer. 1000 miles later, I smelled burning plastic and saw smoke coming from the same tail light. I disconnected the battery an immediately took off the tail lamp housing. Once again, bare wires touching metal. So I took off the crappy wiring and now I'm taking off the hitch to save weight.

Bottom line: Somebody botched a mod, and it manifested itself in random occurrences. I was just about to trade in the POS for having random electrical problems. But once I took off the bad wiring, I haven't had a single problem with it. Now, at 80,000 miles, I have no problems with the vehicle. I might just drive it until it falls apart.

m

[lovemysan]

The deal with the TL was honda knew the transmission was lemon and they orphaned it. They'll install all the "rebuilt by the lowest bidder transmissions" you want until a 100k. The 100k mile service and expensive valve adjustment were icing on the cake. Also there was high failure rates of the front motor mounts.

All in all there very solid cars. The trans just doesn't last and the maintenance is expensive. And yes I could afford it but why would you want to. The tranny was orphaned by honda and will go out. If you can get it rebuilt for $2k your looking at 36 month/36k warranty. Failure rates on the replacements are pointlessly excessive. Read thread below.

http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106818


The sunfire baring no other I've ever owned is the best car. 2.2l 3 speed auto. Mileage was dead consistant at 26city 32hwy at 180k original plugs, wires, timing chain etc. The only non maintenance repair was an a/c compressor, greased the rear brake self adjusters, and top motor mount. Less than $300 total.

[lovemysan]

I don't know what you guys are doing to your cars, but IMO Honda's are the most reliable cars on the road. I have owned 2 Accord's and 2 Civic's and had no problems whatsoever out of any of them, outside of normal maintenance. I even beat the hell out of my last Civic (93 coupe) on a daily basis, blew a headgasket at 170k miles in the middle of nowhere, drove it about 20 miles smoking like a banshee (it still got me home), replaced hg, resurfaced head, and good as new. My current hatch has 171k miles on it and still regularly gets 47-50mpg. These cars can take a beating and keep on going well passed 200k miles. How many Ford's or Chevy's can you say that about? And parts for Honda's are not expensive. WTF? Especially Civic's and Accord's. And they are so easy to work on, do the work yourself! Of course the higher end Acura's are a different story. That is more of a luxury car than econobox Civic. And I see you are regularly getting mpg in the 50's, so IMHO, you should just hush and be satisfied. What are you expecting, 80mpg out of that heavy pig? If you want that, go buy a Metro and have fun fixing things on it weekly. Or drive that awesome Rangler that you speak so affecionately about. :rolleyes:


Umm alot. I grew up poor, we drove everything to death. Lets see
1979 datsun over 200k $50
1982 sentra over 200k $150
2 VW vans not many miles and gave them away
1985 reliant 195k (put the wrong trans fluid in and killed it) $50
1986 ford aerostar 290k $50 3 transmissions(no surprise) running but replaced
1988 astro van 220k $50 still running good/ just replaced
1988 buick regal 250k $300 replaced
1990 ford aerostar 170k $50 puked front trans seal welded first gear clutches but hey still running great.

current
2001 astro 180k running strong
1991 danger ranger bought used wrecked 6 times no original body panels except roof, 200k+ running strong.
1992 civic $300 wonder running strong

Until about 5 years ago my parents did not properly maintain there vehicles. The 86 aerostar was the toughest and worst abused. It was lucky to get oil changes every 15k. Food stamps won't pay for oil changes.

[lovemysan]

I guess my beef with honda is you pay honda price you should get honda reliability, not orphaned transmissions.

We always drove what we could get cheap and we fixed them as they broke. I say some american cars are bargains. Like the saturn S-series.

[rh77]

Before the TSX, I lucked out and had the '99 TL (first year for the re-design, but the year in that generation with the 4-speed). 2000 onward had the terrible 5-speed auto (along with the MDX, etc.). Especially the type-S models failed.

They extended the warranty (even on mine) until 100K miles -- but I heard of several owners who had those fail after 20-30K miles. Ours must have been hanging on by a thread. The CEL came on for "Low fluid pressure -- 3rd gear" about every 6-months. We drove it well into the 130K mile range (bought it as a short-term replacement at 80K miles). After the motor mounts started acting-up, we traded it. It paid for itself with good resale value...

Which brings me to the Fusion. So many are dumped into the fleet market, that the resale value will plummet. In addition, I've seen the accelerated wear, electrical gremlins, and really got a feel for reliability. Psy- I'm not sure if you'd like it. As always, I recommend a quick check of Consumer Reports for reported problem areas. Also consider the Honda vs. Ford service department structure. It might be better, I dunno.

See if you can drive a new one (drives very well), and maybe one with at least 10K miles, like a rental (shows the wear, might be an auto, though). I had a real blast driving one on the backroads of Ohio when I visited my folks. The second experience showed good FE for its size, but the concerns that I noted...

Just my 2-pence.

RH77

The deal with the TL was honda knew the transmission was lemon and they orphaned it. They'll install all the "rebuilt by the lowest bidder transmissions" you want until a 100k. The 100k mile service and expensive valve adjustment were icing on the cake. Also there was high failure rates of the front motor mounts.

All in all there very solid cars. The trans just doesn't last and the maintenance is expensive. And yes I could afford it but why would you want to. The tranny was orphaned by honda and will go out. If you can get it rebuilt for $2k your looking at 36 month/36k warranty. Failure rates on the replacements are pointlessly excessive. Read thread below.

http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106818


The sunfire baring no other I've ever owned is the best car. 2.2l 3 speed auto. Mileage was dead consistant at 26city 32hwy at 180k original plugs, wires, timing chain etc. The only non maintenance repair was an a/c compressor, greased the rear brake self adjusters, and top motor mount. Less than $300 total.

[psyshack]

I don't know what you guys are doing to your cars, but IMO Honda's are the most reliable cars on the road. I have owned 2 Accord's and 2 Civic's and had no problems whatsoever out of any of them, outside of normal maintenance. I even beat the hell out of my last Civic (93 coupe) on a daily basis, blew a headgasket at 170k miles in the middle of nowhere, drove it about 20 miles smoking like a banshee (it still got me home), replaced hg, resurfaced head, and good as new. My current hatch has 171k miles on it and still regularly gets 47-50mpg. These cars can take a beating and keep on going well passed 200k miles. How many Ford's or Chevy's can you say that about? And parts for Honda's are not expensive. WTF? Especially Civic's and Accord's. And they are so easy to work on, do the work yourself! Of course the higher end Acura's are a different story. That is more of a luxury car than econobox Civic. And I see you are regularly getting mpg in the 50's, so IMHO, you should just hush and be satisfied. What are you expecting, 80mpg out of that heavy pig? If you want that, go buy a Metro and have fun fixing things on it weekly. Or drive that awesome Rangler that you speak so affecionately about. :rolleyes:

Ok fanboy.

[psyshack]

I complained about my Mazda - it's made by Ford. It had electrical problems Sometimes it would start but not go into gear. Sometimes, my headlights wouldn't work. Then it would pop random fuses. I carried a box of spare fuses for when they burned out. Did I mention it had the worst case of static electricity I've ever seen in a car?

Finally, we went to tow a Uhaul trailer and the guy from the store came running after me down the street. "Your car's on fire!!!!" Yeah, I freaked. Turns out, the amateur who installed the non-Mazda towing package botched the wiring, and bare wires were touching bare metal in the tail lamp housing.

I shut the engine off, disconnected the battery, and they installed new wiring so I could tow the trailer. 1000 miles later, I smelled burning plastic and saw smoke coming from the same tail light. I disconnected the battery an immediately took off the tail lamp housing. Once again, bare wires touching metal. So I took off the crappy wiring and now I'm taking off the hitch to save weight.

Bottom line: Somebody botched a mod, and it manifested itself in random occurrences. I was just about to trade in the POS for having random electrical problems. But once I took off the bad wiring, I haven't had a single problem with it. Now, at 80,000 miles, I have no problems with the vehicle. I might just drive it until it falls apart.

m

Ive owned Ford/Mazda's and Ford Kia. With no real problems at all.

The Ranger. Ford/Mazda,, Has had some issues. A constent labor knock. Ford could never get that fixed. I got it fixed 6 or 8 months ago myself. It developed a crack in a cab weld within two weeks of ownership. It did have a electrical problem. The wiring harness burned up for the fuel pump 2k miles out of warranty. Ford ended up fixing for free. Ford Motor Company Credit didnt like the thought of eating the Truck. :)

[96hb]

Ok fanboy.


Damn right! And if you are so dissatisfied with yours, why not get rid of it and buy something else? Complaining is useless. Do something about it! Oh and EVERY person I've ever known personally who owned a Kia had nothing but problems with it from the get-go. That's why they have those 100k warranties...YOU NEED IT! Those cars suck.

[psyshack]

Before the TSX, I lucked out and had the '99 TL (first year for the re-design, but the year in that generation with the 4-speed). 2000 onward had the terrible 5-speed auto (along with the MDX, etc.). Especially the type-S models failed.

They extended the warranty (even on mine) until 100K miles -- but I heard of several owners who had those fail after 20-30K miles. Ours must have been hanging on by a thread. The CEL came on for "Low fluid pressure -- 3rd gear" about every 6-months. We drove it well into the 130K mile range (bought it as a short-term replacement at 80K miles). After the motor mounts started acting-up, we traded it. It paid for itself with good resale value...

Which brings me to the Fusion. So many are dumped into the fleet market, that the resale value will plummet. In addition, I've seen the accelerated wear, electrical gremlins, and really got a feel for reliability. Psy- I'm not sure if you'd like it. As always, I recommend a quick check of Consumer Reports for reported problem areas. Also consider the Honda vs. Ford service department structure. It might be better, I dunno.

See if you can drive a new one (drives very well), and maybe one with at least 10K miles, like a rental (shows the wear, might be an auto, though). I had a real blast driving one on the backroads of Ohio when I visited my folks. The second experience showed good FE for its size, but the concerns that I noted...

Just my 2-pence.

RH77


We purchased the Hondas believing in there quality. Started at Yota dealers. But theres not enough KY on the planet to make going to one of our local Yota dealers anything but rape.

My brother has had great luck with Mitu's. My sister and her husband are Yota buyers come hell or highwater. They consider it a blessing to pay mark up over msrp. :eek:

I believe in Hondas engines. They are works of art IMO. But it would seem some of there controls and other things that make up a car are not as well thought out or produced.

Honda is known to make some great trannys and some bad ones. A 5MT your safe,, 5AT on a I4,,, OK. 6MT or 5AT on a V6. You might well have issues.

Its just dishearting to see the civic at times not do its best. When I know Im on the bubble and the weathers good.

I honestly believe the issues I have are a result of the north american supply chain. And north american labor. And to some it may seem petty to them. The wife and I thought about it long and hard before we jumped on the Honda band wagon. It hasnt turned out like we thought. She dosen't want to trade her Accord. She loves her car ,, problems and all. I like my Civic. From afar its a good looking car. And it drives good. But I dont trust it. Anybody ever want to drive it and play with a SG come to Tulsa. Bet you walk away with a twisted smile and scratching your head.

I have to go see some customers this afternoon. The weather is sucking, rain, wind and such. Si I will see how it behaves for this run and the drive home. I would expect mid 40's out of it in these conditions. Watch it go high 40's.

psy

[ma4t]

Ive owned Ford/Mazda's and Ford Kia. With no real problems at all.

The Ranger. Ford/Mazda,, Has had some issues. A constent labor knock. Ford could never get that fixed. I got it fixed 6 or 8 months ago myself. It developed a crack in a cab weld within two weeks of ownership. It did have a electrical problem. The wiring harness burned up for the fuel pump 2k miles out of warranty. Ford ended up fixing for free. Ford Motor Company Credit didnt like the thought of eating the Truck. :)
LOL. It all comes down to the $, doesn't it? Seriously, after fixing that crappy wiring job that back yard mechanic did, the Mazda has been a dream machine (except the paint which could be more a function of the salt we use here).

m

[VetteOwner]

The deal with the TL was honda knew the transmission was lemon and they orphaned it. They'll install all the "rebuilt by the lowest bidder transmissions" you want until a 100k. The 100k mile service and expensive valve adjustment were icing on the cake. Also there was high failure rates of the front motor mounts.

All in all there very solid cars. The trans just doesn't last and the maintenance is expensive. And yes I could afford it but why would you want to. The tranny was orphaned by honda and will go out. If you can get it rebuilt for $2k your looking at 36 month/36k warranty. Failure rates on the replacements are pointlessly excessive. Read thread below.

http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106818


The sunfire baring no other I've ever owned is the best car. 2.2l 3 speed auto. Mileage was dead consistant at 26city 32hwy at 180k original plugs, wires, timing chain etc. The only non maintenance repair was an a/c compressor, greased the rear brake self adjusters, and top motor mount. Less than $300 total.


lol i know the 2.2L will last forever! i have 137,000 on my 95 s-10 with a 2.2L and i have done absolutely nothing to it. only thing was starter but those can go out on anyhting:D all ive done to my truck for the past 3 years was regular oil changes. started up in -20*F weather starts up now in 90+*F humid weather.

lots of people in a forum for s-series i belong to have 100K trouble free miles, alot have over 200K miles and a few even have 300K with mostly basic maintinince. :D

[96hb]

Its just dishearting to see the civic at times not do its best. When I know Im on the bubble and the weathers good.
psy


Perhaps your expectations are too far out of whack? You claim to consistently get high 40's low 50's mpg. What more do you want? You are already well above what the car is supposed to do. Be grateful, or get rid of it and buy a manual tranny. That is all. The whining is getting to be a bit much.

[rh77]

Perhaps your expectations are too far out of whack? You claim to consistently get high 40's low 50's mpg. What more do you want? You are already well above what the car is supposed to do. Be grateful, or get rid of it and buy a manual tranny. That is all. The whining is getting to be a bit much.

Let's not start a fight over it...

He has a right to complain if the vehicle isn't performing as it has in the past. I learned from the thread so far that an ECU reset might help during Weather or Seasonal changes.

RH77

[psyshack]

Perhaps your expectations are too far out of whack? You claim to consistently get high 40's low 50's mpg. What more do you want? You are already well above what the car is supposed to do. Be grateful, or get rid of it and buy a manual tranny. That is all. The whining is getting to be a bit much.

Have you driven a 8th gen Civic yet? Have you bought a Honda and the list of warranty issues Ive had? Have you even pushed your current ride or any other car as hard as Ive pushed this one? Have you not noticed what I do like about the car? I think you need to go to another thread! Fanboy

psy

[lovemysan]

Perhaps your expectations are too far out of whack? You claim to consistently get high 40's low 50's mpg. What more do you want? You are already well above what the car is supposed to do. Be grateful, or get rid of it and buy a manual tranny. That is all. The whining is getting to be a bit much.

He wants consistency! Honda reliability and honda fit and finish. Honda price should equal honda quality. He has a right to feel ripped off because in a few ways he has been. Honda's transmission issues run deeper than you think. Civics are not immune. More than half there product line gets the black dot for transmission from consumer reports 2000-2004.

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=1682&highlight=transmission+failure

[ma4t]

He wants consistency! Honda reliability and honda fit and finish. Honda price should equal honda quality. He has a right to feel ripped off because in a few ways he has been. Honda's transmission issues run deeper than you think. Civics are not immune. More than half there product line gets the black dot for transmission from consumer reports 2000-2004.

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=1682&highlight=transmission+failure

That's more than reasonable. If our TSX were giving us the same trouble, after what we're paying, I'd be steaming mad. I guess we got lucky.

m

[slurp812]

I guess my beef with honda is you pay honda price you should get honda reliability, not orphaned transmissions.

We always drove what we could get cheap and we fixed them as they broke. I say some american cars are bargains. Like the saturn S-series.

The manuals are always batter, I know it sucks, but even lowly accord auto trannies sucked...

[rh77]

That's more than reasonable. If our TSX were giving us the same trouble, after what we're paying, I'd be steaming mad. I guess we got lucky.

m

Same here -- the only trouble has been a sticking sunroof (IIRC around 25K miles so far). A big selling point was the 4-cylinder (had to have the 5-speed auto for the auto-only driver in the house :rolleyes:)

I've had fewer problems with Honda/Acura than each of Chevy, Olds, Pontiac, Plymouth, Nissan, and Mitsubishi. So far, we've had 5 Honda/Acuras with minimal problems. They've earned our trust with 4-cylinder vehicles. If I bought a new Civic and had several warranty issues, the disconnect between the past experience and present would sure be an unpleasant surprise.

RH77

[96hb]

Have you driven a 8th gen Civic yet? Have you bought a Honda and the list of warranty issues Ive had? Have you even pushed your current ride or any other car as hard as Ive pushed this one? Have you not noticed what I do like about the car? I think you need to go to another thread! Fanboy

psy


Nope. Don't like the 8th gen. Got a 6th gen myself and everything is lovely with it. Looks good, killer mileage, and if/when I decide to throw FE out the window, I can slap on a turbo kit, get it tuned, and run 12's. Honda engineering....it's a beautiful thing! :cool:

[lovemysan]

Nope. Don't like the 8th gen. Got a 6th gen myself and everything is lovely with it. Looks good, killer mileage, and if/when I decide to throw FE out the window, I can slap on a turbo kit, get it tuned, and run 12's. Honda engineering....it's a beautiful thing! :cool:

Unfortunately it ain't what it used to be. 6th gen civic is a great car but they don't make them anymore. My brothers 93 civic ex had seats made from recycled card board(my only complaint). Its a cruel world out there and detroit gets better everyday. The vast majority of the masses drive automatic cars and honda's not going to last by selling paper mache transmissions.

[lovemysan]

lol i know the 2.2L will last forever! i have 137,000 on my 95 s-10 with a 2.2L and i have done absolutely nothing to it. only thing was starter but those can go out on anyhting:D all ive done to my truck for the past 3 years was regular oil changes. started up in -20*F weather starts up now in 90+*F humid weather.

lots of people in a forum for s-series i belong to have 100K trouble free miles, alot have over 200K miles and a few even have 300K with mostly basic maintinince. :D

Way back in 02 I could have bought an 01 2.2 with 8k miles for $450. I didn't and I'm glad, what would I have needed it for.

[96hb]

Unfortunately it ain't what it used to be. 6th gen civic is a great car but they don't make them anymore. My brothers 93 civic ex had seats made from recycled card board(my only complaint). Its a cruel world out there and detroit gets better everyday. The vast majority of the masses drive automatic cars and honda's not going to last by selling paper mache transmissions.


Well of course they don't make them anymore, that's why you go buy a used one. Great car and no car payments FTW! :thumbup:

[VetteOwner]

Way back in 02 I could have bought an 01 2.2 with 8k miles for $450. I didn't and I'm glad, what would I have needed it for.


its come in quiet handy. i get 26 mpg (prolly nore now just "fixed" a leaky/malfunctioning egr valve and my mpg has shot up. 304 miles and still between 1/2 and 3/4 :D ) but the 98+ ones (gm made a head change and cam change that increased the mpg by about 5mpg or so yet kept the same power) people have seen anywhere from 30-38 mpg on interstate and im sure they werent even trying besides goign about 65-70mph:D damn good for a pickup i might say:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

i do use mine tho. i have to haul/tow a trailer full of lawnmowing stuff:)