Help me DIY my old corroded brakes!!

[1993CivicVX]

I have a '93 Civic VX which I just bought. 175K miles. No squeaking or anything.

My friend and I just removed the rear drum to replace shoes and hardware after my mechanic told me I need new rear brakes.

Much to our horror, the innards of the rear brake system look like they have never been touched in the life of the car. The piston looks very corroded, and only one shoe moves when brake is applied.

The inner lip of the "housing," (not sure what this is actually called) is cracked in some places, looks like water can easily come in. Does this need to be replaced?
Does the piston need to be replaced?

In any case, the shop forgot to give us the hardware kit, so we couldn't do the job.

We're now wondering whether or not to let the mechanic do the entire job. He quoted my friend $475 to do the back brakes and fix the ebrake with two new cables, but we're not sure if his quote included replacing the piston and the housing.

If it's easy enough to replace the entire housing and pistons, we'd probably do it ourselves.

My friend has experience in just replacing shoes and hardware, which he is now pretty good at, but feels the other things are beyond his reach.
Could this be learned relatively easily?

Here's a link to pictures we just took of the brakes.
http://dynamitetraining.com/images/brake1.jpg

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http://dynamitetraining.com/images/brake2.jpg

The question is do I return all the hardware I just bought or do I buy the rest and try to do the job ourselves?

Thanks Jake and Ben.

[VetteOwner]

the "pistons and housing" is called a wheel cylinder. easily replaced should cost around $10 for a new one. just pop off the clip, screws, bolt or whatever holds it on the backing plate and your good to go. hardest part is getting the lines out (usually impossible) so be ready to replace some lines at the same time. if they aren't leaking, then their probably good. BUT try to get the bleeder screw loose, if it breaks (wont take much and 80% likely it will break) then deff get a new one. if it does come out, clean all the brake stuff off with brake cleaner (comes in cans) DO NOT! and i repeat DO NOT take an air hose to that dust!!! i know they stopped using asbestos lined shoes a while before that but either way, its still not good to breathe that stuff.

[1993CivicVX]

That yellow text on the second picture says: "under there the lip is cracked off" Do I not need a new backing plate and if I do how do I do that!?

[Danronian]

It depends who inspects the car really. That little lip does help with keeping some water out of the brakes, but the outer lip also helps. Either way, it doesn't seal it, so if you get water that high on the brakes, it will come in no matter what.

If you're planning to do this job yourself (which is entirely possible), first take off all of the drum hardware and use a wire wheel, or wire brush to clean the backing plate to see how bad the rest of it is. If the "pads" where the brake shoes rub against the backing plate are rusted through, that will tell you that you must replace the backing plate. If that lip is the only thing wrong with the backing plate, it shouldnt need to be replaced. Just be sure to clean it up very well, and paint it so that it at least looks decent for inspection.

If you talk to your inspection mechanic, which I suggest in your case, ask him about if he will pass it if you replace the brakes, wheel cylinders (what you call pistons I believe), brake hardware, and shoes. He probably will, but sometimes, if you are new to a mechanic, or if he is simply trying to rip you off, you might be given a hard time, and he might want to replace the backing plate before passing you for inspection.

It also looks to me like you will probably need to inspect the condition of your actual brake drums. The surface where the shoe contacts the drum is probably very scratched from the lack of pad material left on the shoe, so I would look into getting it "turned" to see if it can be salvaged. If not, you can find brake drums for relatively cheap, for new.

In my opinion, with a chiltons or haynes manual (or a honda one downloaded, probably your best option) by your side, you and your friend should be able to do this job with relative ease. You might want to invest in a brake spring remover and some very good vise grips, and be sure you have a small propane torch to heat up the brake lines, bleeder screws, and bolts that attach the wheel cylinders before attempting to remove them. You may also want to soak all of these parts (I strongly recommend this actually) with some PB Blaster for at least a day (best stuff I have ever used) before attempting to remove anything. With care, and heat, and PB Blaster, you might get away with just having to replace the wheel cylinders, and not the break lines.

While you're at this point, you should also inspect how the wheel bearing spins (and check for excessive in/out play) since this would be an optimal time to replace it if neccessary.

Good luck!

[1993CivicVX]

Thanks for that thorough reply. Yikes, sounds like maybe I should just have my mechanic do it! My friend pointed out that the wheel bearing does not spin well. You spin it but it only makes maybe a 1/2 to full rotation. Not very freewheeling.... what is excessive in/out play?

[Fourthbean]

Wow, I wonder what happened to cause that much rust. My 1963 doesn't look anywhere near that bad! Maybe mine has been serviced in it's lifetime though.

Good luck on getting it fixed either way. Hopefully you can do it yourself and save a few bucks and not have too much of a headache doing it.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Get a line/flair wrench, or whatever they're called for the brake lines. A normal wrench usually won't cut it, and you'll thank yourself later...

[Sigifrith]

I had my brakes done in May. St. Louis dealers price for rear drums $65.73 each. I could have bought the drums from Majestic Honda online for $54.13 each + S&H. AutoZone ranged from $18.99 to $28.99 + Tax. You can input your VIN at HondaAutomotiveParts.com & find the prices on everything you need.
If you don't need the car right away, use this as a learning experience & do it yourself. If I had the time, I'd have done mine. For me its worth it to have genuine Honda parts installed by their mechanics. YMMV.

[1993CivicVX]

My friend and I think we are going to do the whole gamut on the brakes, including replacing the wheel bearings. Can anyone give some info on how to replace them?

[Danronian]

Thanks for that thorough reply. Yikes, sounds like maybe I should just have my mechanic do it! My friend pointed out that the wheel bearing does not spin well. You spin it but it only makes maybe a 1/2 to full rotation. Not very freewheeling.... what is excessive in/out play?

That is right...a flare wrench is a great tool to have when working on brake lines. I never ended up buying a metric set for myself since I could never find them cheap. It probably would benefit you to figure out what sizes you need for the bleeder and brake lines and buy the flare wrenches of that size since they could save your brake lines and bleeders from being rounded-off.

If it is hard to turn, it probably needs to be replaced. I'm not sure of the exact in and out play that is allowed, but if you look in an online Honda repair manual it should be able to tell you.

For how to replace the wheel bearings, just consult a repair manual. Having a how-to by your side while working on your car is pretty priceless. Good luck with the repairs.

[Sigifrith]

My friend and I think we are going to do the whole gamut on the brakes, including replacing the wheel bearings. Can anyone give some info on how to replace them?

Spend some quality time here.
http://www.honda.co.uk/car/owner/workshop.html
Click on the 1995-1997 Civic Manual link
This should help til you get your own manual.

Take a look here too.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html

[VetteOwner]

For how to replace the wheel bearings, just consult a repair manual. Having a how-to by your side while working on your car is pretty priceless. Good luck with the repairs.

yes i cant stress this enough! get at least one repair book, (i recomend haynes, very good general how too book for anyhting from engien to brakes to tranny to everyhting else, lots of pics too) they give lots of helpful hints along the way in step by step instructions.:thumbup:

[Ryland]

with a car that has had the brakes neglected for as long as it looks like they have, I would sugest that you check over the rest of the car very very carfully, and would be tempted to take the car back to the mechanic that gave you the origonal quote, because unless you are willing to deal with broken parts that have to be heated and so on then you might be better off just spending the money, of course a mecanice is working on time, and if they brake something then it broke and it needs to be replaced, so it gets slaped on the bill, so it's better for them to brake stuff and charge you more then to spend more time on it and make the parts that are their work, it all depends on how able you are to deal with problems that will come up.

[1993CivicVX]

Well, I'm hoping it's just the brakes. The rest of the car really is sound. I mean, it has a lot of things needing fixing, but on the other hand... many of them aren't really needing to be fixed, they're just convenience things

like exhaust rattle, speedo/odometer not working, and slightly stuttery acceleration and uneven high speed cruising throttle response. and isolated rust spot for inspection. mechanic did do a once over of the car - looking at the bottom - dunno what tipped him off on the rear brakes, he just made a comment that they never get done enough-- and asked if i would be willing to pay him $20 to have a look - I guess part of it was that I told him I needed the ebrake fixed.

Anyway, reason for this post is my latest question.... when people work on their cars, do you drive it up on a ramp or how do you get underneath the car? I'm thinking of building a makeshift ramp that will get the car several feet off the ground so we can have better access at the brake lines and the seized ebrake cables.

[VetteOwner]

you can do that or just jack it up, and eithe ruse STURDY jackstands or stack lots of wood blocks under the frame/subframe. or yes you can drive up on ramps. whatever floats your boat. just NEVER EVER get under the car only supported by the jack or cinder blocks, only use wood or jackstands.

[Ryland]

if you use wood, make sure it's solid and not tippy, screwing blocks together that are stacked can help, but jack stands really are a good idea, I use a hydralic floor jack with wheels, and jack stands, I never use ramps because they normaly prevent me from removing wheels, and it's easyer to reach almost everything under the car with the wheels off, but remember to read your owners manual! it will tell you a few of the places you can jack the car up, and will remind you to dubble up your suport befor getting under the car, never just trust a jack, or just a jack stand, alwas use both together befor getting under a car.

with your speedometer, didn't you say that it stays on when you turn the key off? if that is the case then I think someone screwed with your wiring going to it, as it should turn off when you turn the key off, it sounds almost like someone was trying to set it up for engine off coasting, and screwed up the wiring.

[1993CivicVX]

No, no, I said that when you turn the key off it turns off (which surprised me). The guy I bought it from said it was a $40 part to fix the speedo/odo "speedometer sensor" I think he said. Of course I naively believed him even though I knew I shouldn't. Mechanic said he'd have to replace the whole electronic cluster or something and it'd be in the neighborhood of $200. Well, maybe it is a $40 part, but until I learn how to do things myself, it will be $200.

[SVOboy]

If you just need a new cluster, you can get one for 20 bucks and it is VERY easy to replace. A few screws to take the plastic hood off and undo the cluster mounts and a few plugs to yank out of the back.

You can do it!

[TomO]

Just to clarify... on Hondas, when you turn the key from run to acc. the speedo is supposed to shut off. The VSS (vehicle speed sensor) only gets power when the key is in the run position as well as the tach only gets its power then.

[brucepick]

I've used concrete blocks for decades and nothing too heavy has fallen on my head. If you're not comfortable with it tho', don't do it.

I think the deal is, concrete blocks can crack. Not that often but when they do...

I cut some 2x10 lumber so I could stack two boards to make something to drive up onto. Of course I'm only stacking two layers; it's just enough for me to skinny under the car and work for a while. I think a stack of three would probably be OK too. More than that, I'd want 2x12s for more sideways stability.

If I had to get it a couple feet off the ground I don't think I'd be comfortable with anything but a full shop lift.

[Danronian]

The speedo not working generally is your VSS...which is just a little thing that plugs into the top of the tranny, and fairly easy to replace (but the issue with it is usually that the contacts on it become corroded).

I would get a used one off of ebay from someone with a good rating since I'm sure they cost a lot from the dealer. But just incase, check Majestic Honda´s website to see how much they are new. The speedo fix should not cost more than the VSS. If he is trying to replace your cluster, that will probably not fix the problem, but will cost a lot more, and will take a lot more time to replace.

Personally, I would never use cinder blocks (though I did when I didnt own jack stands). I have heard too many stories of them breaking from friends. Get a set of wide-based, short, jackstands from your local Walmart. They sell there for less than $20. I´ve been using cheap but sturdy jackstands for the last 5 years, and love them.

But if your budget absolutely does not allow for jack stands. Lay wood blocks on top of the cinder blocks, and they will probably be fine.

I would buy a decent hydraulic floor-jack from Sears, or from some other reputable hardware chain (From $75 on sale and up. It should last 20 years or so without giving you trouble). Don´t go with the walmart jack (cost about $25). They drop WAY too fast, and cause the car to hop-off of the jack, ruining whatever is in the way of the jack (personally I had one take out my rad. costing me over $200...).

[1993CivicVX]

Thanks for da help guys. I bought a $20 jack from Advance Auto Parts and it immediately started going down after jacking up the car. Returned it for the same jack with two jack stands, but perhaps I should have just gotten a refund and invested in a quality jack.

If you just need a new cluster, you can get one for 20 bucks and it is VERY easy to replace. A few screws to take the plastic hood off and undo the cluster mounts and a few plugs to yank out of the back.

You can do it!

Easier than installing a CD player that already has the wire harnesses? Because even something simple like that I need help with. :-/ But with practice I hopefully will become mechanically inclined.

[ZugyNA]

You'll probably need 2 new drums....shoes...hardware kit....2 wheel cylinders...in all less than $100. Be sure your e-brake cables slack off though...otherwise...dragging brakes.

NEVER use a trolley jack without a couple of jackstands as back up....if they get a little low on oil...they will just drop.

Concrete blocks can and will suddenly crack and ....you don't want to be under the car.

[Erik]

The rear wheel bearing replacement on my 87 civic was very easy. Just pry out that plate on the center of the wheel hub. You should see a big nut with a crimped spot to keep it from coming loose. Use a chisel to uncrimp that spot and then use an impact wrench or long breaker bar to take the nut off. The whole hub and bearing should slide off. Replace the hub and bearing with a new one (about $90 for my 87) and tighten the nut to the correct torque and recrimp it with a chisel.

Be glad you don't have to replace the front wheel bearings- lots of work and you would need to take the spindles to a shop to have the bearings pressed out/new ones pressed in.

[TomO]

Just for reference, the axle nut in the front and the spindle nut in the rear are 32mm

[SVOboy]

Jacks and blocks are important. I use wood because I think it is least likely to tip or smush.

I'd say the cluster swap is about as hard as the cd player, mehbe less. I feel like it's more accessible. In any case, if you want to come down here and work with me, I would be very happy to show you the ropes on things.

:thumbup:

[1993CivicVX]

Thanks SVOboy. :) This weekend I do brake overhaul. Wish me luck everybody! Cause I'm sure as hell gonna need it....

Next weekend maybe I come down to NJ. Then we do IACV cleaning, VSS fix for the speedo, maybe an EGR cleaning/inspection. And whatever other tips and tricks you might have up your sleave. And maybe do some rust removal/seal and bondo work on the rust hole. How's that sound? :P And then maybe finally I can get the car inspected and start the slow but steady road to 109mpg! :D Actually, I should really fix the rust hole and get the car inspected before such a big trip. So maybe I squeeze that in sometime during the week.

On Monday the mechanic I believe is going to replace the throttle body, the timing belt and alternator belt, and do a valve adjustment. I don't think there is anything else I need him to do, since the rest I'm relying on this group to hold my hand through!

I'm really glad I stumbled upon this little community of fellow fuel sippers.:thumbup:

cheers everyone! :D

[Danronian]

Thanks for da help guys. I bought a $20 jack from Advance Auto Parts and it immediately started going down after jacking up the car. Returned it for the same jack with two jack stands, but perhaps I should have just gotten a refund and invested in a quality jack.



Easier than installing a CD player that already has the wire harnesses? Because even something simple like that I need help with. :-/ But with practice I hopefully will become mechanically inclined.

I would invest in a better jack. The cheapies just drop too fast, which can sometimes throw the car off the jack and ruin whatever is in the way.

The only hard part about replacing the cluster is removing the damn plastic for the dash that is around it. Once that is out of the way, it's much easier than a cd player install. You'll only need to undo a few screws, and unplug the old unit.

[SVOboy]

If the alternator belt is gonna cost you more than 10 bucks to have him do, I'd wait, since it's not very hard at all, but your plan sounds rather good.

Best of luck with the brakes. They can be a pain but you can do it. If you need pictures from the haynes manual, lemme know. I forgot I had one for the EGs, :)

[1993CivicVX]

I picked up a Haynes. The only tool that I know of that I don't have is a flair wrench for the brake lines which my friend is gonna try to pick up at Napa today. Tonight we will put the car up on the two car jacks I bought and then soak the rusty brakes with some stuff I bought (forget what it's called) and then tomorrow we start work. :)

[Danronian]

I picked up a Haynes. The only tool that I know of that I don't have is a flair wrench for the brake lines which my friend is gonna try to pick up at Napa today. Tonight we will put the car up on the two car jacks I bought and then soak the rusty brakes with some stuff I bought (forget what it's called) and then tomorrow we start work. :)

Great plan. Spray everything you'll have to take off with the PB blaster. Sometimes just a one-day soak will really really help.

Good luck with everything!

[1993CivicVX]

Well, we worked on the brakes all day today. We didn't end up soaking everything in PB Blaster over night--partly because we didn't know what to soak. But we soon understood what we should have soaked and why this was so important! The parts of the brakes that connect to the e-brake were so seized up that it took us a good hour hammering and prying the shoes to salvage the seized parts after having them soak in PB blaster for 2-3 hours. But we did finally. The e-brake springs were caked in corrosion but we scraped them relatively clean with the brake cleaning fluid and wire brushes until they sprung back to life. So it looks like we will succeed in getting the e-brake working again without having to replace the e-brake cables. But we had some trouble with reinstalling the rear brakes. When we bled them, which we did with the rotor off, everything sort of went off kilter and when we tried hammering the rotor back on to see if that would help we damaged the shoe because everything was slightly out of place. So I have to get new shoes tomorrow. But my friend thinks it shouldn't be more than an hour or two before we're up and running. We were very exhausted and kept pushing ourselves to finish today and only ended up causing our selves more problems in our beleaguered, bleary eyed state. But we should put the rotor back on before trying to bleed the brakes?

[VetteOwner]

lol sheesh you HAVE to have the rum/rotor on when bleeding brakes... and how hard did you hit the shoes to break them? it should only be a ight tap if that. should eb able to move them side to side with your hands.if you put new shoes on then you have to turn the star wheel (adjusting screw) in a bit to account for the new thicker pads.then once its all together (DRUM ON) put 2 lug nuts on the studs to hold the drum there. then bleed (starting at right rear, left rear, right front, left front) now test the firmness of the pedal. if it goes to the floor dont drive it. now i cant remember if hondas adjust the rear starwheel by pulling up on the parking brake lever a bunch of times or if you have to drive forward, hit the brakes hard and then back hit the brakes hard. when you do that you are alinging the shoes with the drum and getting everything setteled in. THIS IS A MUST!

[1993CivicVX]

We did all that- brakes are working well. The only thing is the whirring sound in the back is still there. I dunno if it has something to do with the wheel bearings as my friend's '94 civic spin a little better than mine. I thought by doing the rear brakes it would be gone but no such luck. But the brakes are working very well. Little more pedal travel than I was hoping for, but the car stops. But, yeah, we had to redo the right wheel because we tried bleeding it with the drum off. *oops* Last thing to do now is to adjust the e-brake cable so it actually applies some pressure to the brake pads. But it should work, we got all the parts moving again, unless the problem was more than the seized parts in the rear brakes.

[VetteOwner]

the pedal should be firmer, either you didnt seat the adjusters (from driving back and forth or yanking the parking brake a few times) or you still have air in the lines. how are you bleeding them? and what order did you bleed them in?

[TomO]

The whirring sound in the rear is more than likely the rear wheel bearing, easy replacement and not too expensive. Around $35 for a rear hub with studs and bearings installed on it and ready to bolt onto the car.

[1993CivicVX]

The whirring sound in the rear is more than likely the rear wheel bearing, easy replacement and not too expensive. Around $35 for a rear hub with studs and bearings installed on it and ready to bolt onto the car.

Nice! That would make the rear wheels fully overhauled seeing as I replaced the wheel drums as well. $35 for both sides? I will definitely look into that.

[TomO]

It's about $40 +shipping per side on Ebay HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/85-00-Honda-Civic-CRX-Del-Sol-rear-wheel-bearing-hub_W0QQitemZ220108239490QQihZ012QQcategoryZ42614Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)

[Danronian]

Great job on the brake work! It's easy to mess up your first time, but also much easier the next time.

I would make sure you're bleeding your brakes properly. With new brakes on the back, you should have less pedal travel, not more.

I agree, the whirring sounds is probably your wheel bearing.

Refer to the manual when adjusting your ebrake. There is a specific number of clicks that will tell you it's adjusted properly. Lucky for you, it's easy to adjust. You just need to take off the cover at the back of the ebrake console.

[1993CivicVX]

My friend admittedly did most of the work. Good to hear about the ebrake. Well, the noise actually is there when you apply the brakes. It's not a terrible noise, but doesn't sound normal. So there is a whirring noise, but there is also another noise when you apply the brakes. The Jiffy lube friend stopped by and test drove it and said the noise is normal and will go away in a week or two when the brakes have broken in a bit.

I thought I should have had less pedal travel, but it's about the same. I'm pretty sure we bled the brakes properly. We bled the backs and the fronts. The brake cylinder on the right side didn't look like it was sealing properly. There is a gap between the rubber and the metal. Is this normal? I believe the noise is coming from the right side more than the left. We had to do that side twice because the first time the cylinder was sticking (of course we tried bleeding the brakes with that drum off) when we reassembled everything looked right except the gap between the rubber part of the cylinder and the metal.

So let me just clarify. To adjust the ebrake I do not need to jack the car up? I can do it from inside the car on the brake lever?

[Danronian]

I think your "gap between rubber part and metal" is the dust cover. I don't know how critical it is, but it would bother me to know it's in there not seated properly. Ya just gotsatuz seat the lip of the seal into the groove on the slave cylinder.

I agree. I would seat it properly though since it will make it last a lot longer.

A lot of times wheel bearings will only make noise under a certain condition, and it only making noise when you brake, from one side, is probably normal.

Please refer to the manual for adjusting your ebrake. You're correct, no need to jack up the car to do it. It is adjusted from under the cover of what covers the ebrake lever in the car. You don't want to adjust it too tight or loose, so be sure you do it right.

If you did bleed your brakes properly, the pedal height should be about the same as before. Since the brakes are new, it will probably take a little bit of driving to get them to stop well. Try not to overheat them, or use them too much, until you have driven the car through about two tanks of gas. Like many car parts, they need to be broken-in before they will work great.

I know on my VX, I replaced just the rear shoes, and it took at least two tanks of gas for them to seat properly and stop as well as the old and worn-out shoes.