128 mpg car

[diamondlarry]

Since there wasn't a diesel section I decided to put this here. This was in a Yahoo group.
Hi all,

I've just been a member of this group for a few days but I'd like to
throw something out for comments. In the 70's Mechanix Illustrated/
Quincy-Lynn Enterprises offered plans for a converted vehicle called
Centurion. The conversion amounted to a Triumph Spitfire with an owner
built fiber-glass body weighing 1200lbs. and a "17 hp, 3 cylinder
Kubota" garden tractor diesel engine.

With this combination they claimed and still do(plans are still
available from Robert Q. Riley Enterprises)128mpg@35mph, 103mpg@45mph
and 85mpg@55mph. Here it is some thirty years of technology later and
these appear to be outstanding numbers for a factory effort let alone a
simple backyard build.

Does anyone in the group think that a simple car like this could be
built and achieve this kind of performance?

Stan

[Sludgy]

Yup, there is no mystery to building fuel efficient cars. Light weight and small engine displacement can produce amazing mileage.

There IS demand for high mileage, inexpensive cars. I'd buy one for commuting. Why won't the automakers import them from Europe or Asia?

Maybe I should go to Europe myself and buy a vintage Citroen 2CV.

[Matt Timion]

I've heard of this story before, and mentioned it a few times on this forum. I originally heard, however, it was popular mechanics, but I could be wrong.

I would be very interested in trying to do something like this. This would be a perfect "around the town" car.

Do we have any idea if there are ways to reduce emissions with diesel? I guess running bio-diesel is an option.

The downside of this conversion is that the kubota motors are rather pricey. I think I remember seeing one for around $4000 once on ebay. It would be pretty cool though to convert an older car (old honda anyone?) to use a diesel 3cylinder engine and just cruise around town.

[Matt Timion]

Yup, there is no mystery to building fuel efficient cars. Light weight and small engine displacement can produce amazing mileage.

There IS demand for high mileage, inexpensive cars. I'd buy one for commuting. Why won't the automakers import them from Europe or Asia?

Maybe I should go to Europe myself and buy a vintage Citroen 2CV.

Honestly for a while I was considering opening up a car dealership here in Salt Lake City that ONLY sold fuel efficient cars. Older imports, hybrids, and Metros would all be sold. If the car didn't get good gas mileage, we could make modifications and then sell it that way. We could fix up an old civic so it could get over 40mpg, or an old metro. Sticker price would be about $4000 per car.

If I had the time and the money, I'd do it. The title of the dealership would be "Gas Savers." Maybe when I strike it rich I can do it.

[diamondlarry]

I've heard of this story before, and mentioned it a few times on this forum. I originally heard, however, it was popular mechanics, but I could be wrong.

I would be very interested in trying to do something like this. This would be a perfect "around the town" car.

Do we have any idea if there are ways to reduce emissions with diesel? I guess running bio-diesel is an option.

The downside of this conversion is that the kubota motors are rather pricey. I think I remember seeing one for around $4000 once on ebay. It would be pretty cool though to convert an older car (old honda anyone?) to use a diesel 3cylinder engine and just cruise around town.

You're right Matt. The story did appear in PM. I did some digging and found the link to the plans. http://www.rqriley.com/cent.html Now that you mention it, I do remember you mentioning something like this. I just didn't put the two together. Maybe I'm sniffing the acetone too long before I put it in my tank.:D

[Matt Timion]

You're right Matt. The story did appear in PM. I did some digging and found the link to the plans. http://www.rqriley.com/cent.html Now that you mention it, I do remember you mentioning something like this. I just didn't put the two together. Maybe I'm sniffing the acetone too long before I put it in my tank.:D


It's better to be redundant IMO.

I would personally love to do something like this. Maybe I'll do this when my engine dies in the n600. Throw a small diesel engine in it... I could get 60mpg EASY in that setup.

[Matt Timion]

Wow...

When I look at this car, all I think of is "1980's version of the future."

http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/cent1.jpg
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/cent2.jpg
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/cent3.jpg
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/cent4.jpg

[MetroMPG]

When I look at this car, all I think of is "1980's version of the future."

that's hilarious. and so true.

[Compaq888]

It's always been true that low body weight and small displacement= more mpgs. SVOboy seems to be on the right track, I'd bet if he does his stuff right we could see a 70mpg car from him.

[SVOboy]

It's always been true that low body weight and small displacement= more mpgs. SVOboy seems to be on the right track, I'd bet if he does his stuff right we could see a 70mpg car from him.

Haha. I'd love to get a 1.2 for my car but the engine won't mount up. Mehbe when I get to custom-land with welding I will do it and use the vtec-e head on it.

Anywho, I thought the PM article was using an MG Midget and a kubota engine to make good mpg?

[Compaq888]

You don't need a smaller motor to accomplish your goal. You need a better way to use the fuel. Like fuel cutoff, fuel heaters and engine management.

[SVOboy]

I've got fuel cut off like all the newer hondas and stuff, so that's there. I have engine management also. Fuel heaters don't work according to diamond larry which makes sense to me but meh.

I think the 1.2 versus 1.5 would be a huge difference in mileage.

[Matt Timion]

I think the 1.2 versus 1.5 would be a huge difference in mileage.

I agree. You should sleeve your engine and use smaller pistons. That would be sick. A 4 cylinder 1.0L engine. :)

[SVOboy]

Sleeving (at least in its normal sense) does not affect displacement. The sleeves are the gaps outside of the piston.

http://www.drwtransmission.com/images/Chads%20engine/010403/Darton%20sleeves.jpg

The sleeves would be the junk with the holes which replace the just empty area:

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0112tur_stroker04_zoom.jpg

[diamondlarry]

I've got fuel cut off like all the newer hondas and stuff, so that's there. I have engine management also. Fuel heaters don't work according to diamond larry which makes sense to me but meh.

I think the 1.2 versus 1.5 would be a huge difference in mileage.

I been doing some reading on fuel heaters and I think my problem may be that I'm running too hot. I'm running straight out of the lower radiator hose and with my 195 thermostat it's probably too much. I've heard that there is a relatively narrow window of temperature that is most effective; like 140-160 or so. I heard from too many people that they do work so it about has to be my setup.

[Compaq888]

See I told you fuel heaters work, it just needs to be adjusted. Megasquirt would at least improve fuel economy by 2mpg. But spending a crap load just to get 2mpg is pointless.

[SVOboy]

Megasquirt would at least improve fuel economy by 2mpg. But spending a crap load just to get 2mpg is pointless.

I can do everything megasquirt can do with my stock ecu for free, plus a lot more megasquirt can't do, plus with more support, plus with just all around awesomeness.

[krousdb]

Megasquirt would at least improve fuel economy by 2mpg. But spending a crap load just to get 2mpg is pointless.

I can do everything megasquirt can do with my stock ecu for free, plus a lot more megasquirt can't do, plus with more support, plus with just all around awesomeness.

Soon I will have awesomeness too! Hopefully with support!
w00000t!

[DaX]

Sleeving (at least in its normal sense) does not affect displacement. The sleeves are the gaps outside of the piston.

http://www.drwtransmission.com/images/Chads%20engine/010403/Darton%20sleeves.jpg

The sleeves would be the junk with the holes which replace the just empty area:

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0112tur_stroker04_zoom.jpg

Actually that's incorrect, SVO. What you are referring to is a block guard [as demonstrated in the first picture]. This essentially makes the engine a 'closed deck' design. Aftermarket sleeves appear to be fitted to the engine in the lower picture. Sleeving an engine is basically replacing the cylinder walls with stronger walls, and while doing this, you can either put in larger or smaller diameter bores. I actually had a covnersation with Earl Laskey and Dan Benson about sleeving my 1.5L down to a 1.3L or smaller. They discouraged me from doing so, as the sleeves would have to be custom. They make their sleeve blanks at a diameter larger than the diameter I would need to get below a 1.4L engine. Not to mention, custom pistons would need to be made, which would be $$$.

Wow...

When I look at this car, all I think of is "1980's version of the future."

Haha, it reminds me of that cheezy 80's movie, 'The Wraith'

http://www.brafilm.no/movie_images/h_304112.jpg

[SVOboy]

I suck. I think I was confused by the DIY sleeving article that's on honda-tech. Seems more like a DIY block guard I guess, :(

[Kraig]

Seems I recall reading about a guy in California that swapped a Kubota diesel into a Metro and he got 95 mpg ..............

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Looks like one of the chinese yanmar clones. (http://utterpower.com/10hp_chevy.htm) This must be the kubota. (http://www.ewire.com/display.cfm/Wire_ID/1305) Hell yeah! (http://my.opera.com/bhtooefr/blog/show.dml/91951)

[RandyW]

Years ago in a publication called Diesel Car Digets there was an article that told about a conversion using a 1970 Mazda R-100 and a Kubota 2 cyl diesel with a Toyota 5-speed transmission that would reach freeway speeds, rather slowly, and got 96 mpg to a gallon of diesel. The publication date was around 1974.

[Mike T]

A smart cdi engine in an aerodynamic and light car like an Insight would be a nice combo.

[Ryland]

It's possible to get 104mpg in a civic vx if you only go 20mph, or 116mpg in a metro xfi at the same speed.
Road And Track Article (http://nbtsc.org/%7Eryland/RoadAndTrackArticle/Page%204.jpg)
If I want to get 128mpg at 35mph I'll ride my moped, sure 85mpg at 55mph would be nice compared to the 65mpg that my motorcycle gets going that speed, but what's it get at 70mph freeway speeds, if it even goes that fast?

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Provided it goes that fast, probably high 60s. I dunno why anyone who's interested in efficiency would go faster than 55-60mph on the freeway...

[Ryland]

some people like to go over 65mph on the interstate to save time, or to keep from being run over, I know I've enjoyed my civic vx being able to merge on to a buissy freeway with 5 adults in to car on a number of occations, I also have ridden in vehicles that are governed to cut out the engine if you try to go over 85mph for more then about 5 seconds, to me it would make sense to drop that down to 80mph or so.
It's not very safe to drive alot slower then everyone else, I think being rearended is still the most commen form of trafic acident, and car accedents are the most commen way to be killed.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I dunno where this fear of being rear-ended comes from... Just stay on the right where you won't get people going 85mph up your butt. Iirc, 80% of all traffic fatalities are due to drunk driving and run off the road accidents, and even then I'd rather being going 55mph and have a drunk rear end me than go 85mph in the same situation. Braking distances are proportional to KE, and go like V^2. So at 55mph I can come to a stop roughly 2.3 times sooner than at 85mph, which is a lot of real estate I'd rather not cover in a panic situation given the choice. Merging is just a matter of checking your mirror ime, but I guess people feel more secure with more power?

[Brock]

Idling in 5th my car (diesel) runs about 28-29 mpg and SG indicates between 120 mpg and 180 mpg. Some day late at night I will try driving home that way ;)

[usedgeo]

This will go no where but...Briggs and Stratton makes nice little diesels. The price will scare you.

http://www.tulsaenginewarehouse.com/catalog/briggs/bshoriz/430447-580447.html

There are a lot of small diesels around but you need to get the engine at salvage price to make any sense of any conversion I could come up with.

Did you follow the earlier omgwtfbyobbq link to this link? This is one cute little bugger.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/gw/vw1litre.htm

I need to figure out and copy that front wheel treatment. If Boeing can go 500 mph wihout covering up their wheels I ought to be able to go 1/10 of that. Some planes don't completely cover the wheels when retracted.

[gasssaver87]

i do beleave that the car the thread is about is a diesel/electric hybrid, similar to a freight train. the diesel runs a generator at its most efficient speed.

[lca13]

>>I dunno where this fear of being rear-ended comes from... Just stay on the right where you won't get people going 85mph up your butt.

Wish that were true on the freeways in California :-)

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Wish that were true on the freeways in California :-)

10/15/91 baby! A year of going ~55mph w/ no problems. :D

[100MPG]

A smart cdi engine in an aerodynamic and light car like an Insight would be a nice combo.
You read my mind. And even though it would be a frankenhonda/smart, it would drive, ride like a normal car, a/c, stereo...I NEED my a/c!

[DarbyWalters]

Actually that's incorrect, SVO. What you are referring to is a block guard [as demonstrated in the first picture]. This essentially makes the engine a 'closed deck' design. Aftermarket sleeves appear to be fitted to the engine in the lower picture. Sleeving an engine is basically replacing the cylinder walls with stronger walls, and while doing this, you can either put in larger or smaller diameter bores. I actually had a covnersation with Earl Laskey and Dan Benson about sleeving my 1.5L down to a 1.3L or smaller. They discouraged me from doing so, as the sleeves would have to be custom. They make their sleeve blanks at a diameter larger than the diameter I would need to get below a 1.4L engine. Not to mention, custom pistons would need to be made, which would be $$$.



Haha, it reminds me of that cheezy 80's movie, 'The Wraith'

http://www.brafilm.no/movie_images/h_304112.jpg

Might be easier to get a custom crank and shorter rods to reduce cubic inches...a De Stroker Motor

[DaX]

Wow...

When I look at this car, all I think of is "1980's version of the future."

http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/cent1.jpg
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/cent2.jpg
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/cent3.jpg
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/cent4.jpg

I actually got a chance to sit in one of these cars earlier this year. The guy I sold my Honda Beat to has one. :)

[OdieTurbo]

I agree. You should sleeve your engine and use smaller pistons. That would be sick. A 4 cylinder 1.0L engine. :)

Since we're bringing this thread back from the dead... ;) A Spitfire, at least my 1965 model had a 1.1 liter 4-cylinder! Awesome little car, but I have no idea what the mileage was.

I have had many thoughts about using another Spitfire for a chassis for FE testing ideas.

[Erik]

Its a small world- I had a 74 Triumph Spitfire about 15 years ago. Very light and very easy to work on with the flip up front end. I never bothered to check the mileage when I had it- I only cared about power and cornering back then.

Its weight and low frontal area would make it a great FE project car.

Here's a member with one: http://www.gassavers.org/garage/view/1043

I am puzzled by the new 600cc Honda car- is it the Fit? With such a small engine, I figured the mileage would be in the 70's or so, but it isn't- any thoughts as to why its not much higher than civics and metros?

[DaX]

the new 600cc Honda car
Link? I'm not aware of it...

[Erik]

I guess its not that new after all- the 660cc Honda Beat

http://www.kei-cars.com/index_files/beat_info.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Beat

But why do you all think it doesn't have better FE numbers? If it was geared to low for the highway, you'd think it would still get really good FE in the city.

[DaX]

I guess its not that new after all- the 660cc Honda Beat

http://www.kei-cars.com/index_files/beat_info.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Beat

But why do you all think it doesn't have better FE numbers? If it was geared to low for the highway, you'd think it would still get really good FE in the city.

Erik,

I owned a Honda Beat earlier this year, check out my gaslog for numbers:

http://www.gassavers.org/garage/viewgaslog/322

While the MPG isn't bad compared to other cars, it isn't quite what you'd think that small of a displacement engine could do. The gearing isn't just short, it's EXTREMELY short. Highway RPM's were 6,000 plus. This has a huge impact on FE.

[Nerobro]

Has anyone considered any of the other rqriley designs. The doran looks great. But the citycar is the one that has my attention. Something small, and light. It looks about perfect for my grocery, and trips to the train station. I'm not so fond of the CVT though.

[maxxgraphix]

There's a limit of what you can do with small displacement engines. Small CC's means low torque. With the limited power you need to lighten the vehicle to get higher speeds. Once you can't go any smaller, you change the gear ratio to produce more torque at the wheel. This interns increases the RPM and uses more fuel.

Hybrids work better since the motor can run at the perfect effiency. But then there's the battery problems. If you have a large electric motor to make speed then your batteries go dead faster.

Perhaps the solution is to get rid of the internal combustion engine design we have used since, 1700's?

If you have the skill and $$ + tools, you can build a nice little hybrid. Perhaps it would be cheaper to score a salvage Prius like another member here did.

For the rest of us in the U.S. there's the VX, HF, Metro.

How about this? It's small with a small engine? I wonder how this does on the Hwy.
http://www.corestore.org/boost.JPG