diesel woes

[Erdrick]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/us/03truckers.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Boo hoo. You can't cut down your trees to build over-sized houses for folks with magazine and newspaper subscriptions who don't give a damn how many trees it takes to satisfy their greedy lifestyle? Yeah, that may have crossed a line or two, but seriously, why are these people complaining? What is it with Americans that they instantly have to blame someone and can not take responsibility for their actions? The state of Maine shouldn't lose tax dollars because the truckers made a bad choice when they entered their profession! Don't expect people to save you when your decisions backfire on you. America never was and never could become a socialist/communist state that supports people regardless of the circumstances. America loves capitalism, where it is survival of the fittest. I don't personally like this system, but it is fact that this is what America practices.

Bottom line is, prices are rising, and they will continue to rise. Plan accordingly.

[lovemysan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/us/03truckers.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Bottom line is, prices are rising, and they will continue to rise. Plan accordingly.

I agree, you can't expect the government to "fix" supply and demand.

[DarbyWalters]

Maybe you guys need to realize that taxes on Diesel right now are higher than on Gas. It is not the cost of the fuel but the cost of the taxes. I do agree that in the long run things tend to work out...higher prices for everything...then someone else will be complaining. As for weight....that needs to stay constant.

[DaX]

I agree, you can't expect the government to "fix" supply and demand.

Sure, we can do something like Zimbabwean president Robert Mugabe and outlaw inflation. :p

[Erdrick]

DarbyWalters: No one understands that point greater than me. Living in Japan, diesel is much cheaper than gas. To this end, I researched up on why that is. As you said, it is because of taxes. Diesel is easier to refine than gasoline. This would naturally make it cheaper than gasoline, which is the case in Japan. I can only guess that Japan does this to promote industry. Japan has always had a thinking that you take care of business and screw the consumer. Business profitability is the best way to build a great country. America on the other hand is quite the opposite. Protect the consumer from the evil corporation. Anyways, looking at the diesel situation in America, as everyone knows, it is more expensive than gasoline.

So there you go.. diesel price is not inflated in Japan, and it is inflated in America. Wait.. everyone is following my piecemeal logic right? Japan protects business, and business uses diesel (barely any average people drive diesels in Japan -- can't buy them), so the prices on diesel are cheap. America protects the consumer, and consumers use gasoline (other than the TDI, there aren't many diesel choices in consumer cars in America), so it is less taxed than diesel. Simple as that. And I connected these dots AS I was typing. Amazing what some good British gin will do for the ole noggin.

[4bfox]

theclencher: "Or put in more rail."

Funny you mention this....I was talking with a retired SantaFe RR guy a week or so ago, he thinks economically towns/cities WITH rail service will survive, those WITHOUT will dry up. Kind of like when rail went in, in the 1800's.

I remember when SantaFe and MoPac removed rail service to our town in the 80's...all the landowners thought it was a great deal. Now I'm not so sure.

[Erdrick]

Still, America is too spread out to have a really excellent rail system like that of Europe and Japan. We have absolutely no high-speed rail connections, and have to rely purely on inefficient and overly expensive air travel to get around the country. I doubt if America could ever catch up to the other countries in the world in regards to rail transportation. People will have to get by on cars alone, until the day comes where cars are prohibitively expensive to operate.

[DarbyWalters]

Agricultural Diesel (with red dye) is much cheaper for farmers...under $2.00 last time I checked but nobody says raise it and the price of food!

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Agricultural Diesel (with red dye) is much cheaper for farmers...under $2.00 last time I checked but nobody says raise it and the price of food!That also happens to be good for business. I mean, if anyone is gonna take to VO as a fuel source en masse, it would be farmers. In the future, we may even see a freeze on diesel prices for farmers.

[flash7210]

Still, America is too spread out to have a really excellent rail system like that of Europe and Japan. We have absolutely no high-speed rail connections, and have to rely purely on inefficient and overly expensive air travel to get around the country. I doubt if America could ever catch up to the other countries in the world in regards to rail transportation. People will have to get by on cars alone, until the day comes where cars are prohibitively expensive to operate.

Last election ('06) here in FL there was a vote to repeal the High-Speed-Rail Act. It passed, no more plans to start a high speed rail line in FL (I voted to keep it). I researched all the plans at that time and found that every state south of VA (NC, SC, GA,FL) had similar plans. You see, VA, MD, PA, NY, CT, NJ and MA already have high speed rail, in some form. If all the southern states had it too then there could be continuous high-speed rail line all the way from Boston to Miami (at least in theory). There was a big push to convince voters that it was all a waste of money and no one was ever going to ride it. Nobody saw the big picture or understood the benefits. Or believed that gas would get over $3 a gallon.

[SD26]

Agricultural Diesel (with red dye) is much cheaper for farmers...under $2.00 last time I checked but nobody says raise it and the price of food!
I think off road diesel is about $0.40 cents cheaper, really depends upon the state tax. Wisconsin has high fuel taxes. Off road diesel is used by construction companies and landscapers for their equipment that isn't used on road.

Diesel fuel is one of those unique things that has a direct affect on everything consumable. Milk, computers, cars, food, toys. They are built, processed, grown, and transfers from some place, then it's got to go to other places before it gets to the end user. That gets transported by truck or rail in the US, both of which use diesel.

With ever increasing demand for products, regardless of what individuals say about the US economy, things have to get places, and diesel's demand continues to move lots and lots of product. The price rises as a result of that demand for the supply.

Biodiesel has been touted as a savior, but as demand for biodiesel has increased, so has it's price also.

As for the price of food prices, we buy milk for our kids. It's up a lot. Additionally, a project I'm working on requires the purchase of some farm land. The cost per acre has gone through the roof compared to about five years ago. Of course, that makes the land valuable to an owner, but then the taxes go up too, so...

Oh, and rail travel will get me no where. It's a nice thing when I'm in Chicago, but outside of crowded places, a bus is still less expensive to put into use, operate, and the routes can change too.

[Erdrick]

Last election ('06) here in FL there was a vote to repeal the High-Speed-Rail Act. It passed, no more plans to start a high speed rail line in FL (I voted to keep it). I researched all the plans at that time and found that every state south of VA (NC, SC, GA,FL) had similar plans. You see, VA, MD, PA, NY, CT, NJ and MA already have high speed rail, in some form. If all the southern states had it too then there could be continuous high-speed rail line all the way from Boston to Miami (at least in theory). There was a big push to convince voters that it was all a waste of money and no one was ever going to ride it. Nobody saw the big picture or understood the benefits. Or believed that gas would get over $3 a gallon.

Yeah, the real problem is that it still is handled by states like that. We need a federal-run program that could tie the country together with rail. I still think that Americans are too spread out for that to ever work though. Our population density just isn't suited to rail.

SD26: Over here in Japan, the prices on many items are set to increase next year. These are based on percents, fixed costs, and a couple other ways. End result is the same though... I get to pay more for everything. Oh, to put things in perspective... I pay about $1.50 for a liter of milk here. That works out to a little under $6.00 for a gallon. When was the last time you paid anywhere near that? Oh, and this is just average run of the mill cheapo milk. Nothing fancy. You make do though, and life goes on. Out of curiosity, what are you paying now for a gallon? I used to be able to pick one up for about $1.80 a couple years ago.

[SD26]

Milk? Well, I don't do all the shopping all the time, and I'm not a milk guy.

But, it wasn't so long ago, two years ago, that a lot of stores would offer "a free gallon of milk" with a $20 purchase. Well, we don't have that anymore. I know that a gallon of chocolate milk is over $5 now, where it was about $3. I wanna say that milk is just above $3 a gallon. Again, nothing special, just plain ol' no name, least expensive milk in the fridge.

I agree that the US population isn't suited to rail. People are mobile, and they work at different places or have to carry stuff to work. Lots of manufacturing isn't around anymore either, so that makes it less likely that there will be people that need to be transported to a factory or something.

I've spent some time in Chicago, and I've used the trains there. I like it when I need it, which has been about nine times. Oh, and they need a $1 Billion dollar upgrade so it's being reported. As an investment, I'd rather they do something to the roads there. I use those freqently, as do others, and it would do more for local and interstate commerce.

[niiloma]

the bigger the car the more benefits there are from a diesel car.

[landon]

the bigger the car the more benefits there are from a diesel car.

And those would be...?

I'd like something like a Lupo myself.

[niiloma]

if you look at fuel consumption you see that since diesel has more torque its fuel consumption is RELATIVELY speaking lower in a bigger car. I don't mean, of course, that you should buy a bigger car but if you HAVE TO buy a bigger car diesel would be a good choice..

[Ryland]

ah yes, poor planing on their part... rail IS a much better way to move things but it's poor planing that keeps it from working, then look at the state of Oregon, great public transit, great rail transit for goods, why does it work for them and not the rest of us? urbon growth boundries, just like this thred started out saying, people don't plan ahead, and when it bites them in the *** they whine, if more cities/states had anti-sprawl laws we would all have a better life.

[Erdrick]

I am personally with landon on this. The Lupo with a three cylinder TDi would make a nice addition to my garage that currently contains a 2005 Prius and a 1998 Jetta TDi. In fact, it would blow these two top performing (in the US at least) cars out of the water. It is a shame that we have to be content with cars like the Prius and TDi-equipped large VW offerings while our neighbors on the other side of the Atlantic are getting cars that give 80mpg+ off the dealer's lot.

[Erdrick]

While niiloma is on the right track, diesel-fueled engines are not ONLY good for applications in large vehicles. They help ANY size vehicle to achieve better FE. Look at the Tiguan offerings to see how this works in big trucks. Look at some of the offerings in Europe (maker really doesn't matter) to see how this applies to small cars.

Whether diesel is the right choice or not, it only makes sense to put more of these cars on the market and let people buy them if they want them.

[maxxgraphix]

Perhaps one could build a LUPO. Get a Golf gasser then do a swap with the Lupo engine / trans?

OMG! Wait don't do that! It won't meet EPA standards. The engine will put out more NOx per gallon than the US version of a Golf TDI. Let's see the Golf TDI does around 0.052 g/mi of particulate matter [PM] and 0.82 g/mi of NOx.

Ok, let's say the Lupo is double that! (I doubt it) But it consumes half the fuel for the same distance. Hey, wouldn't that make it even with the Golf TDI?

Seriously, I say total BS. Freakin retards in the EPA and GOV.

Bring in the cars/trucks that get double the average FE then mix in 5% BioDiesel. That would reduce the overall fuel consumption, lower emissions, save consumers $, boost car sales, put people to work, maybe even boost the economy. It's a win / win.

[Lug_Nut]

Who checks NOx output once the model/engine combination passes manufacturer's EPA testing? Does even CA perform a sniff test of diesels? MA, one of the other four that have adopted CA's emissions standards does not. I haven't even been checked for opacity or percent smoke output, never mind CO, HC, CO2. And that in a gasser with a diesel swap.
The limits on other emissions for gasoline powered vehicles are in parts per hundred (%) or per million (ppm), not mass per mile.

[instarx]

Yeah, the real problem is that it still is handled by states like that. We need a federal-run program that could tie the country together with rail. I still think that Americans are too spread out for that to ever work though. Our population density just isn't suited to rail.

I agree with the Federal Rail system, but I think you have it entirely backwards that the US is too big for rail to be much use. Long distances are perfect for rail, and transcontinental rail is much cheaper than transcontinental trucking. If anything, the country is too big for trucks.

There are actualy truckers that drive cross country to deliver the equivalent of ONE rail car's worth of goods. That's simpy crazy.

I've often thought that a hybrid rail-truck system would be best. Ship trucks on trains and then offload them and use the trucks to deliver locally (or regionally). Of course the most efficient system would be to ship containers that became trailers to be delivered locally by local tractors, but the trucking industry is too conservative to give up their way of life. Loading trucks onto rail cars like those used to transport trucks through the Channel Tunnel would be a good compromise. The truckers could hang out in the club/sleeping cars and socialize rather than spending days clogging the roads and wasting fuel. When they get to a rail hub near thier destination their trucks are simply offloaded and new trucks loaded.

A truck getting 5 MPG travelling 2,000 miles uses 400 gallons of fuel. At $4/gallon that's $1,600 in fuel alone! The true cost (oil, tires, maintenance, depreciation, tolls, road taxes, tickets, etc) would probably be more like $4,000. What trucker wouldn't pay $1,000 to have him and his truck shipped the same distance (zero miles on the odometer) while watching satellite TV in the lounge car?

As for passenger cars, do the same for them. There used to be that service between NY and Florida called the CarTrain.