Lawn Mower Fuel Brand Experiment

[n0rt0npr0]

I have the test "set-up" :

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_2848.af5.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=IMG_2848.af5.jpg)
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_2850.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=IMG_2850.jpg)
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_2852.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=IMG_2852.jpg)
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_2853.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=IMG_2853.jpg)
Now I just need to locate the jug I will use to bring home my first sample.

Mower is Toro 450 Model #20434

Funnel has cut-off valve on it, measurements will be taken in ml or in pints. I need help deciding how much fuel to test per run. How about 200ml? (I can guess that that much is about an hour run)

I marked the ground so mower can be brought back to the exact same spot (in case it rains and so I can put it back in garage overnight)

I will keep my window cracked so I can hear the mower sputtering when its running out of fuel. I will hand time the run, and time is stopped when mower is stalled.

Of course I will log all ambient temperatures as taken from the weather station one of my neighbors is runnning 900ft away.
*out in garage locating my jug to start the beginning of three runs of Shell*

[Compaq888]

I think you should do the following.

Shell
Chevron
76
Arco
Mobil

Those are the top brands.

[SVOboy]

I've never heard of arco, and I have traveled the northest for college visits, the midwest for family, and the mid atlantic for life.

Exxon-Mobil is the largest oil company in the world still, right?

[Matt Timion]

I've never heard of arco, and I have traveled the northest for college visits, the midwest for family, and the mid atlantic for life.

Exxon-Mobil is the largest oil company in the world still, right?

Arco is huge on the west coast. It's a cheap gas station. I would say to use it if you have one in the area.

[n0rt0npr0]

Gotta scratch Arco, Chevron & 76 off the list. No such things here.

Availible brands here are BP, Mobil, Shell, Marathon/Speedways, Sunoco and Citgo. Of course you have the Costco's, Meijers and Sam's Clubs fuel.
*EDIT 3-29-06*
Found out that MArathon is NOT the same as Speedway! Totally different! My bad!
I also have ONE BioPerformance Gas Pill, lol
If someone wants to figure out how we could test that in this experiment. ...and it does indeed smell like moth balls.

I found my jug and testing with Shell begins tonight.

[SVOboy]

I remember when I wanted to test moth balls. That would be something to test, just figure out the ratios. You could also do it with moth balls if it pleased you.

[n0rt0npr0]

yeah,

and it doesn't please me to test an expensive box of moth balls. Someone can send 4 of them to me if they want to for testing purposes :D.

As far as this test, the conditions outside here are very ideal right now. Calm wind. No sun shining on the gas funnel. Temp is 36.7

[SVOboy]

Aren't moth balls only like 99 cents a thing? I dunno, I have never even seen them for sale, nor do I know what their purpose is.

[n0rt0npr0]

last year or whenever you were talking about them on here last, I located them for $2.69 a box...
but yah I don't know much about them either

[diamondlarry]

People put mothballs in an onionbag or something like that and hang them in their closet to keep moths from eating their clothes. I'm not sure they are used as much anymore with all of the synthetic fibers being used for clothes nowadays.

[Compaq888]

Don't you have chevron over there????

[SVOboy]

I've seen one chevron ever, in kansas I think.

[Compaq888]

I've seen one chevron ever, in kansas I think.

I've seen them in Kansas too but I didn't have to click my high heels to get there.

[n0rt0npr0]

To start, I did as JanGeo suggested...I ran a warmup run 50ml of Shell fuel. And I took aproximately 15 minutes between runs to start the next.

The constants in this round are:
-Three 200ml runs
-Barometric Pressure remained constant at 29.42in
-No measurable windspeed

Run #1
-Length: 20:49.00 minutes
-Temp remained within 36°F
-Humidity was 39 to 40%

Run #2
-Length: 20:25.00 minutes
-Temp remained within 35°F
-Humidity: 40%

Run #3
-Length: 21:09.00 minutes
-Temp remained within 34°F
-Humidity: 42%

P.S.~There are no Chevrons around here...
And damn I was waaay off in estimating how long 200ml would run! lol

[Compaq888]

well this blows. Some of use can't really use this because we have different gas stations. I only use Chevron and shell because all the mechanics we've been to recommend it.

[Matt Timion]

well this blows. Some of use can't really use this because we have different gas stations. I only use Chevron and shell because all the mechanics we've been to recommend it.

The solution is to do it yourself. The more data we get the better, IMO. Some of the data will overlap and some will not. in the end we'll have a great set of data.

I might have to try to find an old lawn mower for this very purpose.

Nortonpro, are you emptying the gas tank between each run? I'm very impressed with the consistancy of the first three runs on the same gas.

[Compaq888]

well this blows. Some of use can't really use this because we have different gas stations. I only use Chevron and shell because all the mechanics we've been to recommend it.

The solution is to do it yourself. The more data we get the better, IMO. Some of the data will overlap and some will not. in the end we'll have a great set of data.

I might have to try to find an old lawn mower for this very purpose.

Nortonpro, are you emptying the gas tank between each run? I'm very impressed with the consistancy of the first three runs on the same gas.


I don't own a lawnmover and doing this experiment on a car will produce different results due to driving conditions, other drivers, weather and etc.

[n0rt0npr0]

Yes, gravity clears the whole fuel line and stalls the mower out for the next run. All the way down to the last drop of fuel.

And there were many constants during this round. I may have to get a normal measuring cup to truly measure 200ml out on a perfectly level surface, rather than this funnel to get any closer consistancy.

There are no leaks and with no wind this round, no measurable evaporation.

[JanGeo]

apparently it increases performance like nitro and produces some nasty acids in the motor that will distroy it.

[JanGeo]

results of test look good - you will find that if several people do the same test who has the best lawnmower! LOL! Anyone want to ship you some other brands of gas to test?

[n0rt0npr0]

I located the CLOSEST Chevron! It's 165 miles away in Amsterdam, Ohio. I'm up for road trips but not the expense of that long a drive. Donations appreciated...lol, cuz I'm crazy enough to go get it:P

The nearest 76 is 63 miles away in Howell, Mi.

[krousdb]

well this blows. Some of use can't really use this because we have different gas stations. I only use Chevron and shell because all the mechanics we've been to recommend it.

First things first. Lets prove that there is a statistically significant difference between several fuels. Then lets worry about testing the different brands. Since gasoline generally travels through a pipeline to get to different parts of the country, any difference would be in the additives that are mixed in at the terminals.

Another thing to consider.... Right about now, there is a change from the winter blend to the summer blend of fuel, 112,500 BTU to 114,500 BTU. You need to be sure that you are testing the same blends or your results will be inaccurate. There is also a change from MTBE to RFG? Lots of variables here with the boutique blends. Driving to another state to get a particular brand of fuel might result in a different blend. So in addition to testing Shell, BP, Chevron, etc, we also must state winter or summer blend, RFG, CBG, etc...

[krousdb]

Yes, gravity clears the whole fuel line and stalls the mower out for the next run. All the way down to the last drop of fuel.

And there were many constants during this round. I may have to get a normal measuring cup to truly measure 200ml out on a perfectly level surface, rather than this inverted cup to get any closer consistancy.

There are no leaks and with no wind this round, no measurable evaporation.

You might want to try one of those syrnge like things for measuring medicine for children. I have a 50ml one. Also, are you running at idle or low or high throttle?

[Compaq888]

krousdb is right you might be using winter bland for one gas and summer gas for another brand. You might want to wait a month till everybody uses summer gas.

[n0rt0npr0]

I did consider that but I doubt 2000 btu is statistically significant inside of a 200ml run.

Also, this area uses massive amounts of gasoline. Our public transportation system is one of the worst (smallest) in the country. We are slow to switch to the more expensive summer blend. They won't allow that to come around until May 1st. AND my impression from last year is right before labor day weekend will they release it to the stations. This can be proven upon request.

MTBE? They've talked about that here. Since the 80's there has not even been a chance of it here though. MTBE is an oxygenate as is ethanol, current states with cities using an oxygenate are: Texas, Colorado, Montana, Utah, Alaska, Oregon, California, Nevada, Arizona, Minnesota and Washington. No RFG either here.

The mower is on "fixed" full/high throttle. I never move it, and its zip tied in place.

I aquired a 60ml syringe. Retesting using that for the sole measuring.

[krousdb]

I guess maybe Matt can tell us if 2000 BTU, approx 2% is statistically significant. I was thinking that if one brand consistantly showed a 2% increase in run time over the others that it would be significant. I am expecting no difference.

But it sounds like you have the winter blend so your results will be interesting. Are you retesting with 200 ml or with 60 ml? Good idea with the zip tie.

[n0rt0npr0]

Thanks for the syringe idea, I am testing now and have some very close times. I must be very very close to 200ml this time around.

Yes, staying with 200ml for all the runs. Thanks for the ziptie comment.

My last test will be over in 30 minutes(its 2:45 now), and five minutes later I will post the results.

[krousdb]

My last test will be over in 30 minutes(its 2:45 now), and five minutes later I will post the results. The suspense is killing me! What brand is next?

[n0rt0npr0]

Okay first, Mobil is the fuel to be tested next.

Again, I took aproximately 15 minutes between runs to restart.

The constants in this round are:
-Three 200ml runs (warm runs)
-Barometric Pressure remained statisticly constant at 29.35in - 29.37in
-No measurable windspeed on first two runs, change listed on third
-Same Shell Gasoline as first run

Run #1
-Length: 22:00.00 minutes
-Temp remained within 46°F
-Humidity was 38%

Run #2
-Length: 22:17.00 minutes
-Temp remained within 46°F
-Humidity: 38%

Run #3
-Length: 21:49.00 minutes
-Temp remained within 47°F
-Humidity: 37%
-2.33mph average windspeed

[krousdb]

OK, but does 21.49 mean 21 minutes 49 seconds or 21.49 minutes?

[n0rt0npr0]

yeah this gasoline has been "effecting" me...

look now...
see if that makes more sense...

[krousdb]

ok, three runs, average 1322 seconds +/- 1.1%. Very nice. Should prove as a good basis for comparison. Compaq says Shell is the best. If so, it should get worse from here.

[n0rt0npr0]

It should yes.

And man I can't take it, I'm doing a warm-up run right now, I am going to test acetone and coleman fuel together with the rest of this Shell fuel I have. I may not come up with three 200ml runs, but I just wanna see what it does.

[zpiloto]

The run times are quite a bit longer than the first attempt. Do you think this is because of the accuracy of measuring or the 10 degree increase in temperature? If it temp, thats a new factor to look at. I think CITGO will give the longest run time.

[krousdb]

Im thinking by adding acetone and coleman, you are changing two variables. Can you do one run with each?

[n0rt0npr0]

The run times are quite a bit longer than the first attempt. Do you think this is because of the accuracy of measuring or the 10 degree increase in temperature? If it temp, thats a new factor to look at. I think CITGO will give the longest run time.

Yes they are but its too early to even start guessimating. :p

Im thinking by adding acetone and coleman, you are changing two variables. Can you do one run with each?

Okay I will do one test with every combo. I have enough fuel. One with acetone, one with coleman, one with both. We've been graced with seriously calm weather, I had to take advantage!

[Compaq888]

this is weird. Mobil runs longer than Shell, really weird.

[krousdb]

this is weird. Mobil runs longer than Shell, really weird.

I think all of the tests so far have been Shell. Mobil is next. I'm betting no significant difference between any brand, except for Sunoco. IIRC, Sunoco uses 5 or 10% Ethanol. At least that is what is shown on the pump in my town. If so, I expect it to run 21 - 21.5 minutes.

[Compaq888]

this is weird. Mobil runs longer than Shell, really weird.

I think all of the tests so far have been Shell. Mobil is next. I'm betting no significant difference between any brand, except for Sunoco. IIRC, Sunoco uses 5 or 10% Ethanol. At least that is what is shown on the pump in my town. If so, I expect it to run 21 - 21.5 minutes.


you're right. He just made the test better.

[n0rt0npr0]

Damn. I truly did not think things would get so close. No more rounding up...

The constants in this round are:
-Three 200ml runs (warm runs)
-Barometric Pressure remained statisticly constant at 29.33in - 29.35in
-Measurable windspeed stays between 2.5mph and 1.6mph
-Same Shell gasoline
-15 minutes between runs to restart.

Run #1 Coleman&Acetone
-Length: 22:05.00 minutes
-Temp remained within 48°F
-Humidity was 33% - 34%

Run #2 Coleman Fuel alone
-Length: 22:03.94 minutes
-Temp is exactly 49°F throughout
-Humidity: 32%

Run #3 Acetone only
-Length: 22:04.43 minutes
-Temp spread is 48.5°F - 49.2°F
-Humidity: 32%

Interesting.

[krousdb]

I'm thinking that pretty much debunks the acetone theory. Keep the results coming. Awesome work!

[Compaq888]

^^^
and the coleman too.

you should do a test with warming up the fuel lines.

[n0rt0npr0]

1.8% improvement @ 1oz/10gal ratio of acetone. If the weather is like todays tommorow, I will do a three ounce acetone test. 1 ounce has never done anything measureable for my car.
2oz - 3.5oz might have more of an impact.

*EDIT* Whoops. *thinks to himself* Yeah move the decimal point Will...
The right percentage is 0.18% improvement. :p


And I think the coleman fuel did something like lubricate the mower engine...obviously it made it run freaky consistant. Lubrication is the only thing I can forsee doing something to smooth out consistancy. So obviously more testing is required.

[krousdb]

1.8% improvement @ 1oz/10gal ratio of acetone.
1.8% improvement? How did you calculate that?

EDIT: I agree, 0.18% looks like the right number.

[Compaq888]

eager to see results. :)

[SVOboy]

Ya rly, I've been out of the loop all day running around and I wanna know!

[JanGeo]

Neato results on the additive mix and definately add a little more acetone - get up on the crest of the curve for more gain . . . 3/10
Some Torco GP-7 testing should be done last as it will lubricate the engine and change further results. If you can't see enough of a difference in the run time then you have to increase the amount of fuel being used say double it to get longer run times with more resolution. You may also see more gains at a lower throttle setting when running acetone than at full throttle.

[n0rt0npr0]

Mobil testing:
Now usually I take aproximately 15 minutes between runs to restart. BUT, the wind was freezing today and was cooling the mower very very rapidly. So all these restarts were under ten minutes. I also did seven runs because I could not get close numbers today for some reason. I have kept the funnel covered with foil during all runs but am still scared something got in there due to these numbers being all over the place. So I am going to spray out the fuel line to see if anything comes out...
And I guess if I am off by 1ml of fuel then thats equal to about 6.6 seconds of run time ain't it?

The constants in this round are:
-Seven 200ml runs (warm runs)
-Mobil Gasoline

RAW DATA no conclusion
Run #1
-Length: 22:14.62 minutes
-Temp remained within 44°F
-Humidity was 39%
-3mph average windspeed
-29.466 inches of pressure

Run #2
-Length: 22:03.96 minutes
-Temp remained exactly 45°F
-Humidity: 39%
-3mph average windspeed
-29.464 inches pressure

Run #3
-Length: 22:25.03 minutes
-Temp remained within 44°F
-Humidity: 38%
-3.6mph average windspeed
-29.464 inches pressure

Run #4
-Length: 22:15.90 minutes
-Temp remained exactly 42.9°F
-Humidity: 39%
-4.2mph average windspeed
-29.454 inches pressure

Run #5
-Length: 21:47.50 minutes
-Temp remained inside 40°F
-Humidity: 37%
-6.8mph average windspeed
-29.44 inches pressure

Run #6
-Length: 22:03.01 minutes
-Temp remained inside 38°F
-Humidity: 39%
-5.6mph average windspeed
-29.45 inches pressure

Run #7
-Length: 20:45.65 minutes
-Temp remained inside 37°F
-Humidity: 39%
-4mph average windspeed
-29.44 inches pressure

[krousdb]

Typo on run #7? Less than 3 minutes? Lets come up with an average. The variation is not that bad. Looks like good results to me.

[kickflipjr]

I didn't expect Coleman fule & Acetone to be so close. I guess there is no significant increase/ decrease.

[n0rt0npr0]

Dan what are you talking about?!?! :p What typo?? lol


And Damn. Someone want to number crunch my raw data from the testing? I've been looking at this data and you can flip it a TON of ways. Does it tell us anything?

Looks like:
Shell averaged 1322 seconds at +/- 1.02%

Mobil averaged 1316.52 seconds at +/- 1.08%
BUT not if you take the first three entries to directly compare to Shell which would be 1334.54!

So on one side Shell wins by 1%
On the other Mobil wins by 1.01%

I'll start more testing once I get a cheap graduated cylinder to make this more accurate and easier on me.

Oh and one more thing, today inside of a quarter mile distance Shell prices were 1.02% higher than Mobil's

[JanGeo]

I would say use a seringe but the gas reacts with the rubber seal and makes it stick like crazy - acetone makes it move freely - go figure. I think you may need to measure the revolutions and not the time the motor runs otherwise a little different speed will cause more or less rpm and vary the run time inversely. I just heard on the news tonight that winter blend gasoline reserve supplies are running low and that is why the price shot up - they are supposed to be switching over to summer blends already too! WOO WOO!

[Matt Timion]

Dan what are you talking about?!?! :p What typo?? lol


And Damn. Someone want to number crunch my raw data from the testing? I've been looking at this data and you can flip it a TON of ways. Does it tell us anything?

Looks like:
Shell averaged 1322 seconds at +/- 1.02%

Mobil averaged 1316.52 seconds at +/- 1.08%
BUT not if you take the first three entries to directly compare to Shell which would be 1334.54!

So on one side Shell wins by 1%
On the other Mobil wins by 1.01%

I'll start more testing once I get a cheap graduated cylinder to make this more accurate and easier on me.


When I run the test I'll check for outliers. I have a feeling test #7 MAY be an outlier and will not count towards the data. We'll see what the stats program says.

Oh and one more thing, today inside of a quarter mile distance Shell prices were 1.02% higher than Mobil's

LOL. Funny coincidence!

[n0rt0npr0]

Woah.

I called a small engine shop in the town I live this morning and inquired about what the technicians and mechanics thought about this experiments merit and the conversation started with testing fuels, then to oils, then to additives...

They did say that the carburation system of the mower would compensate for load, which I was unsure. So if the fuel is better, the engine will realize it and use less. Same thing with oil/additives... I just needed to hear that is all.

So they questioned whether RPM could be monitered... I sadly said no. Then they asked if the oil looks dirty. I said yes. They said change it, it MAY affect the current testing in some way. Then they gave me the number to thier distributer of an additive they sell called MT-10. (http://www.mpc-home.com/products-automotive-mt10.php)

I called and he came up with some suggestions: What if a second mower was involved using identical procedures? That could even give the experiment more merit...(no mower donation!):p
And then I mentioned additives. He personally holds the opinion that has been expressed here before that all oils are equal in lubricity performance. But then he said there is MT-10, and requested I use it at the very end of the experiment.(due to its clinging quality, he said it would absolutely affect all other testing) He has arranged for me to recieve an 8oz bottle for free, as long as he recieves my all results obtained from this experiment. So...

Would this group help me compile my results into something tangible? I don't have much experiance in creating a presentable paper report. Maybe just some tips when the time comes...

sidenote: he also owns a friction brake. I don't know what it is exactly but using it to test the MT-10 has made him a believer.
And I guess I wish I would have known that in small engines, oil is EXPIRED when it LOOKS dirty. It's not suposed to look dirty. I now also know the drain interval which is 25 hours...
*EDIT* 3-23-06
I called another shop and asked again about the oil thing....they said the 25 hours but at 0 (testing) load that can increase by 50%. They also said that the motor is old so I can expect it looking dirty after three hours of run time. So I am not going to change the oil until fuel testing has completed. Then maybe we can test oil? I will test mobil dino oil vs mobil one...

[Matt Timion]

Would this group help me compile my results into something tangible? I don't have much experiance in creating a presentable paper report. Maybe just some tips when the time comes...


I'll volunteer to write an actual report for this when you are done. I can put it into PDF format so you can print it out and send it out. I'm very excited about this.

[JanGeo]

My test proceedure for oil is if it is slippery between the fingers it is good if it makes your fingers stick when you press a drop of oil between them then the oil is shot. Dirty is just dirt but also can be broken down oil. Reading about oil in the www.synlube.com site really make it clear that we are all getting screwed by the oil companies.

cool beans on the free additive - gassavers.org lab testing has BEGUN!

[SVOboy]

cool beans on the free additive - gassavers.org lab testing has BEGUN!

Ya rly, this is a great thread! Once it warms up and the weather regularizes around here I will do the same type of testing, it seems very fun to me!

[n0rt0npr0]

First of all Thank You Matt for volunteering the creation of the final report! :D And on crunching the numbers.

Well Dan wanted to know how Speedway fuel did, eh? (we both get the same formulation according to Exxons map) definately check my math (but I think I am getting better lol) :p
This round was LOADS better due to having a better measuring device.

I had leftover Mobil fuel and thought doing a side-by-side test session would be effective. I cleaned the fuel line out with carb cleaner and found 6 mosquitoes! Michigan is crazy! Reconnected the funnel and topped the oil off, then I ran 300ml of Mobil through it to warm it up real good. So the new measuring cup allows me to restart runs waaaay faster, and the mower is burn-your-fingers hot at the start of each and every run this time. We're talking five minutes or so to restart.

The constants in this round are:
-Eight 200ml runs (HOT runs)
-Speedway VS Mobil Gasoline (Alternating!)

Run #1 Speedway
-Length: 22:49.88 minutes OR 1369.88sec
-Temp remained inside 47°F
-Humidity was 47%
-1mph average windspeed
-29.30 inches of pressure

Run #2 Mobil
-Length: 23:04.28 minutes OR 1384.28sec
-Temp remained inside 46°F
-Humidity: 45%
-2.8mph average windspeed
-29.30 inches pressure

Run #3 Speedway
-Length: 22:10.78 minutes OR 1330.78sec
-Temp remained within 45°F
-Humidity: 44%
-2mph average windspeed
-29.30 inches pressure

Run #4 Mobil
-Length: 23:21.53 minutes OR 1401.53sec
-Temp remained exactly 45°F
-Humidity: 44%
-no wind
-29.29 inches pressure

Run #5 Speedway
-Length: 21:49.69 minutes OR 1309.69sec
-Temp remained 45°F exactly
-Humidity: 45%
-2.6mph average windspeed
-29.29 inches pressure

Run #6 Mobil
-Length: 22:53.78 minutes OR 1433.78sec
-Temp remained inside 44°F
-Humidity: 46%
-no wind
-29.29 inches pressure

Run #7 Speedway
-Length: 21:57.32 minutes OR 1317.32sec
-Temp remained inside 43°F
-Humidity: 48%
-1mph average windspeed
-29.29 inches pressure

Run #8 Mobil
-Length: 22:35.22 minutes OR 1355.22sec
-Temp remained inside 41°F
-Humidity: 50%
-no wind
-29.30 inches pressure

So...
Mobil Average=1393.70 minus
Speedway Average=1331.92
=61.78sec difference / 1331.92 * 100 = 4.64%

Mobil does 4.64% better than Speedway fuel in a carburated lawn mower. :D

[krousdb]

Hmmmm, I was hoping for no difference at all. Matt, will you be doing a statistical analysis of these results? I would like to get your perspective.

n0rt0npr0, great work and thanks for your effort! I am now wondering if the Speedway gas is E10. I know that the Sunoco's here say 10% ethanol on the pump. Since ethanol has about 2/3 the energy of gasoline, that might account for the 4.6% difference.

[Matt Timion]

Hmmmm, I was hoping for no difference at all. Matt, will you be doing a statistical analysis of these results? I would like to get your perspective.

n0rt0npr0, great work and thanks for your effort! I am now wondering if the Speedway gas is E10. I know that the Sunoco's here say 10% ethanol on the pump. Since ethanol has about 2/3 the energy of gasoline, that might account for the 4.6% difference.

I will be doing an analysis on this, but i plan on waiting until all of the data is completed. I can add future results from other users to this if anyone else begins with this experiment.

[n0rt0npr0]

n0rt0npr0, great work and thanks for your effort! I am now wondering if the Speedway gas is E10. I know that the Sunoco's here say 10% ethanol on the pump. Since ethanol has about 2/3 the energy of gasoline, that might account for the 4.6% difference.

Answer:
March 27, 2006

Dear Mr. Hill,

This is an acknowledgement of your E-mail. All of our fuel contains
ethanol.

Thank you for taking the time to write us. We are always interested in
hearing from our customers whatever the reason.

Sincerely
Speedway SuperAmerica LLC Customer Service
ADDENDUM:
Speedway SuperAmerica's gasoline is blended with 10% ethanol.

Sincerely,
Customer Service

[diamondlarry]

This looks almost identical to the email I got from them a few months ago.

[n0rt0npr0]

Well zpiloto wanted to know how Citgo fuel did? And I did not have much data on Shell so I retested it back to back with Citgo

The constants in this round are:
-Eight 200ml runs (HOT runs)
-Shell VS Citgo Gasoline (Alternating!)
-Barometric Pressure was ONLY different on very last run: 7 runs with 30.17inches pressure then last run was 30.16inches
-of course fuel funnel is covered right after fill (like always)
-and restarts were around 4-6min apart

Run #1 Shell
-Length: 21:58.56 minutes OR 1318.56sec
-Temp remained exactly 48.9°F
-Humidity was 40%
-4.6mph average windspeed


Run #2 Citgo
-Length: 21:54.84 minutes OR 1314.84sec
-Temp remained exactly 48.8°F
-Humidity: 40%
-2.4mph average windspeed

Run #3 Shell
-Length: 21:54.07 minutes OR 1314.07sec
-Temp remained exactly 48.3°F
-Humidity was 40%
-2mph average windspeed

Run #4 Citgo
-Length: 21:32.16 minutes OR 1292.16sec
-Temp remained inside 47°F
-Humidity was 41%
-5.2mph average windspeed

Run #5 Shell
-Length: 21:50.44 minutes OR 1310.44sec
-Temp remained exactly 46.9°F
-Humidity was 43%
-1.8mph average windspeed

Run #6 Citgo
-Length: 21:23.81 minutes OR 1283.81sec
-Temp remained inside 45°F
-Humidity was 46.5%
-2.5mph average windspeed

Run #7 Shell <I had 30ml of shell fuel that had sat uncovered that I added to 170ml of fresh shell fuel to produce this effect, I don't know...the uncovered fuel slightly concentrated due to evaporation?>
-Length: 22:31.44 minutes OR 1350.44sec
-Temp remained inside 43°F
-Humidity was 51%
-1.7mph average windspeed
...so I am not really counting this one...its here for matt

Run #8 Citgo
-Length: 21:36.50 minutes OR 1296.50sec
-Temp remained inside 42°F
-Humidity was 51%
-2mph average windspeed

Run #9 Shell
-Length: 22:10.25 minutes OR 1330.25sec
-Temp remained exactly 42.1°F
-Humidity was 52%
-1mph average windspeed

preliminary conclusion
Shell=1318.33 minus
Citgo=1296.83 = 21.5sec / 1296.83 * 100 =

Shell did better than Citgo by 1.66%
EDIT *3-29-06*
According to that Exxon map, Michigan does NOT have reformulated gasoline. So it was an equal test. 100% Gasoline to 100% Gasoline

Also...From Citgo's Website (Thanks Larry!)Q: Do CITGO products contain ethanol or methanol?
A: CITGO does not use methanol in its gasoline. CITGO gasoline may contain ethanol, but primarily only in select areas where it's the oxygenate of choice to meet federal regulations for reformulated gasoline. Regulations require that if a gasoline contains ethanol, that fact must be posted clearly on the retail dispenser. If you don't see this or a similar posting, the gasoline shouldn't contain ethanol.

Also


Q: If I am purchasing an ethanol gasoline, what is the percentage of ethanol?
A: The percentage of ethanol (if any) may vary at individual locations. An ethanol gasoline can contain up to 10 percent ethanol. If you purchase ethanol gasoline where there is an ethanol posting, the location or marketer supplying the location should be able to tell you the exact percentage.
Just offering that as food for thought.

[zpiloto]

Wow that's a reversal of what I found in the south. Just goes to show you the inconsistancies of taking a week or more to run through a tank and all the effects of weather during that time. Good work n0rt0npr0! I'll have to rethink the Citgo.

[SVOboy]

Is there any way to compare a few generic brands that're local versus the big ones (you've covered them I think), just to see a general difference? I imagine all generic local stuff uses roughly the same business strategy when blending the gas to make it cheaper, might not be exact, but just for idea's sake.

[krousdb]

I get my gas at GetGo, which is owned by a supermarket chain. I average 70 cents/gal discount every time I fill because we buy groceries. Yesterday I sent a message asking about the content of the fuel. Here is the reply:

Dear Mr.. Kroushl:

Currently none of our GetGo stations carry ethanol blended gasoline. If stations do carry ethanol blended gasoline, it is a 90/10 mix (90%gasoline/10%ethanol). There is also E85, which is 15%gasoline/85%ethanol. E85 requires a vehicle specifically designed for such a mix. You will need to contact your dealership to find out if your vehicle is a FFV (Fuel Flexible Vehicle). E85 is not currently available in PA. Due to state labeling requirements pertaining to ethanol, pumps in PA must be labeled that it is blended with ethanol.

Thank you for your inquiry and your patronage. If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me.

Michelle L. Katrinak
Quality Assurance Manager, Corporate Brands
Giant Eagle, Inc.
101 Kappa Drive-RIDC Park
Pittsburgh, PA 15238
Phone: 412-968-1522
Fax: 412-968-1701
Cell: 412-225-2294
email: michelle.katrinak@gianteagle.com


It looks like I have not FE degradation due to ethanol.

[rh77]

I watched the local news in San Antonio this evening, and apparently they're to replace MTBE with Ethanol for their emissions blend (which I think is used in the summer-months instead of Winter). Local oil experts are concerned that the ethanol will cost more to truck-in, and that we don't have a sufficient supply to sustain the mix for the season.

Mixed feelings here:

Good: Ethanol is a renewable resource
Bad: Ethanol is less efficient per combustion
Good: Farmers help make Ethanol
Bad: Oil companies help make MTBE
Good: Ethanol emits less toxins when burnt
Bad: MTBE is a carcinogen, even after combusted
Good: MTBE is cheap and easily available
Bad: Ethanol may not be ready for nationwide release in this capacity

Who knows.

RH77

[n0rt0npr0]

yeah local news here had a segment on the ethanol thing tonight also. Kinda different than what you are seeing...

They interviewed some guy involved with the production of ethanol and he said that he is not personally worried what-so-ever about his and all the production companys meeting the demand for the ethanol needs across the country.
They talked about the logistic cost of ethanol transportation but did not say if it was going to raise prices for sure. lol, of course it will however. Every little thing increases gas prices. :p

To stay on topic, I've decided to test Marathon/Hess Fuel...but am undecided on what other one to test?

[krousdb]

I read an article a few days ago that E10 will lower FE by 1.5%, which is about the difference between the winter blend (112,500 BTU/gal) and the Summer blend (114,500 BTU/gal). I am wondering now if E10 is actually the winter blend. If not, why does energy content go down?

[rh77]

I am wondering now if E10 is actually the winter blend. If not, why does energy content go down?

Many places around the Country have already replaced their cold weather blend with E10 (like in my area), so the "Crapoline" yields lesser efficiency.

RH77

[Ryland]

ok, I have to comments about what is being talked about on this page,
first off, there is alot of corn that is grown around here, and yes, you can grow corn in a sustainable healthy way, but how corn is grown it errodes the soil, and poisons the ground water from all the chemicals that are used in growing it, and in killing pests, and if your tax dollars were not subsudising the production of ethonal it would cost something like $3.50 a gallon or more to produce, and it also only is a net loss of energy to produce ethonal, in otherwords if you were to try to run a ethonal factory on ethonal you would run out, sure some of the facory could be run off renewable energy, but NO ONE in the country is doing this yet on a large scale.

but my main comment is about the lawn mower exsperement, I've worked on small engines enough to know that a carburator puts a set amount of fuel in to the passing air, and lawn mower carburators do not, and can not self adjust for differnt fuels, motorcycle carburators are more adjustable, and much more advanced, but they still can not self adjust for differnt fuels, some of the last honda car carburators had a solinod that would adjust to a point the fuel/air mix, but even those had their limitations, and required a o2 sensor, and I have yet to see a lawn mower with an o2 sensor.
with all of that said, all that is happening is each rotation the engine sucks in air, and a mesured amount of fuel, if you filled it with water, and pulled the starter cord, it would suck in the exact same amount of water, lawn mowers don't care what liquid they have intheir fuel tank, the carburator will let the same 14:1 mix no matter what, the only thing is they will not run on water, so you would have to keep pulling the rope.
with a lawn mower engine the things that are going to change are the engine temp, the power produced, and the exaust, unburnt fuel, and other polution, and most of all the amount of power that the engine is producing is going to change, so to really test the engine it should be a generator, even a simple one with a car alternator and a light bulb as the load, set up so the engine is alwas producing the same amount of electrical power, just like you want the same amount of power from your car engine to propel you down the road, if the power is not there you press the gas pedal a little more, and your fuel ecconmy goes down hill, we did a test with one of our cars, a Geo-prisem and found that one gas station gave us 36mpg, and the other gas station gave us 39 mpg, same type of use every time, same grade of fuel, we would switch every other fill up useing the other station, and you would see the numbers in the log book change.

so I have a hard time taking this lawn mower test serusely because there is no real load, all that is being showen is that the engine is running about the same speed, so it is sucking in about the same amount of fuel, and with the govener that is on a lawn mower engine you could even lean out your fuel air mix, and it would self adjust the speed, the only self adjustment is speed on a lawn mower, and that is most likely what the mecanic was thought he was talking about.

modern cars with fuel injection self adjust fuel for all kinds of reasons, engine temp, o2 sensor readings, air temp readings, knock sensor readings, lawn mowers have non of these, but fuel additives affect alot of the engines sensors in their own way, either by fooling the sensor, or affecting how the engine runs and affecting the sensor in that way.

[n0rt0npr0]

You said it yourself, the engine is self-adjusting for speed. If that fuel is better, again, that mower will gain speed. It "sees" the additional speed, and self adjusts. Air is not what is adjusted. The fuel metering is adjusted. Better fuel = more speed = less metering = longer run times. Those differing times have allready shown themselves.

[n0rt0npr0]

Is there any way to compare a few generic brands that're local versus the big ones (you've covered them I think), just to see a general difference? I imagine all generic local stuff uses roughly the same business strategy when blending the gas to make it cheaper, might not be exact, but just for idea's sake.
Well I WAS going to resume testing today, but I asked the managers at the local cheapy stations(firebird and Miejers), and they said they just get whatever brand is cheapest.
One could conclude that there will be huge differences between these no-name cheapy brands because one may have found shell gas at a cheap price and the other may have found speedway at a cheap price.
The ONLY major brands that are left are MArathon and Sunoco(E10)

What should I do GasSavers?

[diamondlarry]

I vote for Marathon. I started using that Saturday. It seems to be the lesser of all the evils out there. It could also be interesting to see the difference between E10 gas and regualr gas.

[n0rt0npr0]

Just to recap for this page; When I did Mobil VS Speedway...Speedway has 10% Ethanol or E10 blended into ALL of their fuels all the way across the board! Every location that sells Speedway is E10.
Results of the E10 VS 100% Gasoline which was speedway vs mobil...
Mobil Average=1393.70 minus
Speedway Average=1331.92
=61.78sec difference / 1331.92 * 100 = 4.64%

Mobil does 4.64% better than Speedway(E10) fuel in a carburated lawn mower.

[n0rt0npr0]

I recieved some additive samples from Larry in the mail, so I'll baseline with Marathon fuel and then add FFT to the mix to test.
Thank you Larry.

And the constants in this round are:
-Eight 200ml runs (HOT runs = restarts within 5 minutes)
-Marathon baseline VS Marathon with FFT added
-of course fuel funnel is covered right after fill to control evaporation (like always)


Run #1 Marathon
-Length: 22:25.47 minutes OR 1345.47sec
-Temp remained inside 54°F
-Humidity was 50%
-8mph average windspeed
-30.24 inches pressure

Run #2 Marathon
-Length: 22:37.94 minutes OR 1357.94sec
-Temp remained exactly 53.9°F
-Humidity: 51%
-6mph average windspeed
-30.22 inches pressure

Run #3 Marathon
-Length: 22:52.31 minutes OR 1372.31sec
-Temp remained exactly 53°F
-Humidity was 51%
-6mph average windspeed
-30.21 inches pressure

Run #4 Marathon
-Length: 22:21.41 minutes OR 1341.41sec
-Temp remained exactly 53.2°F
-Humidity was 52%
-6mph average windspeed
-30.21 inches pressure

Run #5 Marathon with FFT
-Length: 22:26.19 minutes OR 1346.19sec
-Temp remained exactly 52.8°F
-Humidity was 53%
-4.2mph average windspeed
-30.21 inches pressure

Run #6 Marathon with FFT
-Length: 23:16.00 minutes OR 1396sec
-Temp remained exactly 52.7°F
-Humidity was 53%
-6.2mph average windspeed
-30.21 inches pressure

Run #7 Marathon with FFT
-Length: 22:12.38 minutes OR 1332.38sec
-Temp remained inside 51°F
-Humidity was 55%
-6mph average windspeed
-30.21 inches pressure

Run #8 Marathon with FFT
-Length: 22:30.91 minutes OR 1350.91sec
-Temp remained inside 47°F
-Humidity was 56%
-4.6mph average windspeed
-30.20 inches pressure

Averages:
-Marathon = 1354.28 seconds
-FFT & Marathon = 1356.37 seconds

FFT does .15% better overall.

Only thing I noticed during this test session was that with the FFT added, the mower started effortlessly compared to without.

I'll test Ethos FR next :)
To keep things equal, I'll keep running Marathon baselines at beginning of sessions.

[krousdb]

Good stuff! Keep em coming!

So what is the verdict on FFT?

[SVOboy]

Sounds like the verdict, from this at least, is it doesn't do much, who knows in our cars though.

[DaX]

Man this thread makes me want to set up a test engine from one of my spare D15's to run experiments on. Excellent thread nortonpro!

[Ryland]

I wonder what kind of results you might get if you added some isopropyl alcohol to your fuel, the stufffrom a drug store that is 25% water, as they use 100% isopropyl to remove water from your gas, by pushing it thru the engine, seeing how much alcohol/water you can add, I sugest this because I don't trust these results complealy, and it seem that if you get simaler run times running a percentage of water as your fuel then you know that your engine is only useing a small percentage of the fuel to keep running, and that it doesn't care what the rest of the liquid is, because you are not asking the engine to do a set amount of work, you are just asking it to mantain a vauge speed, the more work you ask it to do, the bigger differince it should make, and the amount of work the engine is able to do will varry as well with fuels.

[n0rt0npr0]

I see what you are saying. I know Water and Gas will not mix and thats why Alcohol is added, it "helps" dissolve the water into the gasoline. Preventing it from floating assures it gets run through.

I can begin todays testing with 70% isopropyl alcohol added into the fuel(instead of a baseline run), then I'll follow with ethos fr to 100% marathon.Or maybe better to do this: four runs with isopropyl added, then one baseline run, then four runs with ethos fr added

I think I will use a high dose of isopropyl, how about 4oz to 10 gallon ratio?

Testing starts in an hour.

[n0rt0npr0]

Also the mower is doing "work" as it runs. It's a mulcher, so its creating a helluva lot of wind beneath it. As the air temps cool(among other things too), the air gets more dense, and that engine has to "work" harder to move that blade thru that air.

In other news, I now know what the max RPM of the test mower is: 3,454RPM

[n0rt0npr0]

This round was more complicated. I tried to complete it before dark.
Alternating lone marathon to marathon with isopropyl x3
Then four Marathon with Ethos FR runs.



Run #1 lone Marathon (baseline)
-Length: 23:18.66 minutes OR 1398.66sec
-Temp remained inside 63°F
-Humidity was 40%
-8.8mph average windspeed
-30.20 inches pressure

Run #2 Marathon with 70% isopropyl alcohol
-Length: 22:25.25 minutes OR 1345.25sec
-Temp remained inside 62°F
-Humidity: 40%
-6.4mph average windspeed
-30.20 inches pressure

Run #3 lone Marathon (baseline)
-Length: 23:08.14 minutes OR 1388.14sec
-Temp remained iside 61°F
-Humidity was 41%
-6.6mph average windspeed
-30.19 inches pressure

Run #4 Marathon with 70% isopropyl alcohol ( :( really hard to start!)
-Length: 21:59.56 minutes OR 1319.56sec
-Temp remained exactly 62.5°F
-Humidity was 39%
-8mph average windspeed
-30.18 inches pressure

Run #5 lone Marathon (baseline)
-Length: 23:00.40 minutes OR 1380.40sec
-Temp remained exactly 62.1°F
-Humidity was 39%
-6.2mph average windspeed
-30.18 inches pressure

Run #6 Marathon with 70% isopropyl alcohol
-Length: 22:06.76 minutes OR 1326.76sec
-Temp remained exactly 61.1°F
-Humidity was 40%
-6.8mph average windspeed
-30.17 inches pressure

Run #7 Marathon with Ethos FR (yay!! easy to start!)
-Length: 23:38.78 minutes OR 1410.78sec
-Temp remained exactly 60.9°F
-Humidity was 40%
-7.2mph average windspeed
-30.17 inches pressure

Run #8 Marathon with Ethos FR
-Length: 23:40.09 minutes OR 1420.09sec
-Temp remained inside 59°F
-Humidity was 41%
-6mph average windspeed
-30.17 inches pressure


Prelimz y0! (averages)
-Baseline Marathon = 1389.07sec
-Isopropyl added = 1330.52sec (4.4% less than baseline)
-Ethos FR (so far) = 1415.44sec (1.9% better than baseline)

And somewhere I heard that this Ethos won't work to its full ability till a couple tanks of it have been run through.

[Ryland]

ok, I'm convinced, and I agree, you've done some impressive work.
I guess the next step would be to find a car engine with all the knock sensors, and o2 sensors, and figure out a way to, in a controled enviroment, monitor the fuel usage, and of course that is going to varry a bit with car engine, just like they all react to differnt spark plugs differntly...

[SVOboy]

I considered the car engine idea and it's such a pain in the ***, because you'd have to wire the full harness, with ecu, with fuel supply and everything, just a huge not really possible for a normal person.

If someone would teach me how to build a go kart I'll make one out of a free engine I can get off one of jared's friends and just let it idle gas away, :p

[n0rt0npr0]

Thank you Ryland.

I've learned some crazy shyt from this forum. Props to all whom speak thier minds here. We're damn good at research around here.

[DaX]

I considered the car engine idea and it's such a pain in the ***, because you'd have to wire the full harness, with ecu, with fuel supply and everything, just a huge not really possible for a normal person.

If someone would teach me how to build a go kart I'll make one out of a free engine I can get off one of jared's friends and just let it idle gas away, :p

I may be willing to build a test engine setup in about a year or so, but it's definately going to have to wait until after I get married and settled into a house.

SORRY FOR THE OT, BUT:

As for the go-kart thing SVO, me and another guy on H-T have tentatively scheduled plans to build an insane gokart with my old VX motor:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte085u/pics/kart01.jpg

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte085u/pics/kart02.jpg

[kickflipjr]

That thing is going to be FAST! Very good power to weight ratio.

[Matt Timion]

I considered the car engine idea and it's such a pain in the ***, because you'd have to wire the full harness, with ecu, with fuel supply and everything, just a huge not really possible for a normal person.

If someone would teach me how to build a go kart I'll make one out of a free engine I can get off one of jared's friends and just let it idle gas away, :p

I may be willing to build a test engine setup in about a year or so, but it's definately going to have to wait until after I get married and settled into a house.

SORRY FOR THE OT, BUT:

As for the go-kart thing SVO, me and another guy on H-T have tentatively scheduled plans to build an insane gokart with my old VX motor:


You know, I will have a spare d15b2 in a month or so. I was considering parting it out, but I could save it and use it as a test motor. Not sure exactly where I'd keep it though.

[n0rt0npr0]

DI wrote:

>bikerscooby writes "Are Ford and BP against this "Top Tier" standard
>and have they allied together?"

Most things GM is for Ford is against and vice-versa.

GM = XM. Ford = Sirius.

In a more technical vein, the OBD-II connector (used for car debugging and emissions testing) has three data communications protocols: one for US GM, one for US Ford, and "the rest of the world" uses the third. Ford of Europe and GM of Europe use "the rest of the world" protocol over there, and it's also true about most of their captive imports.

Need I go further?

>I suspect that's a good explanation. BP doesn't seem to be willing
>to meet the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline standards with its lower
>grades so why not come up with a diversionary tactic.

BP has a good enough reputation (even though they've been messing it up by first the Texas City blast and then the pipeline leak) that they don't need TOP TIER as a marketing ploy.

Chevron has Techron, the ConocoPhillips brands tout ProCLEAN, and Shell talks on and on about V-POWER.

I'd suspect any high-end additive package would be TOP TIER if they did the paperwork.

So I suspect the companies that tout TOP TIER do so they can get the recommendation of GM, Honda, and Toyota. (#1, #4, and #2 car makers, respectively.) Around Houston, the price difference is slim to nonexistent if you stay away from Shell.

>Of course, given that BP doesn't have stations in the western states,
>one wonders how effective such a promo is.

They could get six additional states if they would change over the ARCO stations (basically, Utah west to the Pacific Ocean). ARCO is a brand name of "BP West Coast Products LLC" -- in other words, BP.

ARCO has a completely different marketing paradigm that's incompatible with BP. Arco is a low-price, cash-and-carry business. BP positions itself as the Lincoln (I was going to say "Cadillac" or "Lexus" but I realized their partnership with Ford Motor Company) of gasoline. They even want to sign me up even though I'm probably two tankfuls away from the nearest BP station. (I used to be a BP stockholder but I dumped it a while back.)

They make lots and lots of BP fuel in Texas but it all goes in pipelines to the other parts of the country. Unless, of course, they take it out, add somebody else's additive package, and sell it as some other brand. I wouldn't rule that out.
Arco is huge on the west coast. It's a cheap gas station. I would say to use it if you have one in the area.

[vegasjetskier]

:eek: Hey, DaX, how'd the gokart turn out? :D


SORRY FOR THE OT, BUT:

As for the go-kart thing SVO, me and another guy on H-T have tentatively scheduled plans to build an insane gokart with my old VX motor:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte085u/pics/kart01.jpg

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte085u/pics/kart02.jpg