What is wrong??

[Wild Willie]

Hello fellow consumers. I would like to ask, what is wrong with Americans!? I just visited www.chevrolet.com and saw, how GM advertized its products with a slogan: 30mpg! That sounds like an economical disaster to me! To be economical, any car should nearly double that! No wonder American cars are sold almost exclusively in America. They are out-dated. Why do American people buy American cars? Is your fuel still too cheap? Gallon of gas costs here (Finland, EU) 5.25€ ($7.72). My car takes me 50 miles with one gallon of diesel and it does it comfortably.... and it is 12 years old!
Wild Willie

[Erdrick]

You answered your own question. Gas is cheap in America. While Americans are freaking out about $3.00 gas, most of the rest of the world would praise the heavens for gas that cheap. I think that gas needs to at least hit $5/gal before Americans make a real commitment to FE-focused cars.

You mention your car is a diesel. Unfortunately, those are pretty rare in America, and fetch a high premium over their gas-based siblings. Americans generally have no foresight, so something that costs more today is not worth the added cost, regardless if it saves them money in the future. Americans live in the present. No real hindsight or foresight. Anyways, other than VW TDis, there are no real diesels in America that offer decent FE.

Oh yeah, and the thing is that Americans DON'T buy American cars. Nowhere else in the world can you find people driving so many foreign cars... that I am aware of anyways. Here in Japan, almost everyone drives a Japanese car. Some opt for European cars, but the American car is a rare sight indeed.

You could really put the blame on any number of factors as to why America still hasn't gotten with the program in the FE department... but it all comes down to cheap gas in the end.

[SD26]

US EPA continues to crush diesels. Even European manufacturers are struggling to meet the current standards.

And don't forget about European taxes that are dramatic on the purchase of engines over 1000cc's, 1600cc, etc., in addition to licensing/registration fees thereafter. But that's what the European market bears.

Does the US have more private enterprise? Remember the F150 is the best selling American "car" in America. It's a pick up truck, and that reflects some needs of individuals to do work with their vehicle either at home or work.

Don't Opal's sell well in Europe? GM does still own them, right? Volvo still does well being owned by Ford. There are also a good number of Japanese manufacturers that design and build their vehicles in the US for import to other markets.


Anyway, smaller cars don't sell as well here because there's no volume in customers for them.

[brucepick]

For Americans, the sad part is that the total cost of fuel for automobile transportation is going to be at least as much as now, and probably much more.

We will not have very fuel efficient cars at the current gas prices. Since only much higher gas prices will get us to buy gas-sipping cars, we can predict that we will have 40-60 mpg cars with gas at $5-6 per gallon. We will then be paying roughly the same per mile as we are now. And we find this level painful.

Between 1980 - 2000 my wife and I drove small Japanese cars that got 25-30 mpg (I believe) and gas was maybe $1.25-$1.75. So mpg will increase by only 50-100%, if we are lucky, but fuel prices are increasing 3x to 4x compared to that level we were used to for such a long time.

Transportation will cost us much more than we have been paying, and it can hurt our economy seriously.

[SD26]

Fuel prices will change. In March of 2001 or March of 2002, I was paying $0.69 for gasoline in Georgia. A lot of the current price is based on a couple things: the USD having a lower value and increased global demand for the supply of petroleum.

I many ways, that's great. Why? Because it's financially viable to make changes for businesses or personal use. Finally, there's a new gasoline refinery being built in the US, and one hasn't been built since the 70's even though, obviously, the demand and the need for gasoline has continued to increase. I'd love a good diesel car, but there are so few options here. Small cars aren't an option. If I have to take my kids and the neighbor kids to school, that's five kids and an adult, I can't do it in a Smart Car. I can't even to it in our Ford Focus.

So, Wild Willie, Americans do buy a ton of Japanese cars too. They get similar mileage. Very few are Yari's or Fit's. The Toyota's, Honda's, and Chevrolet's still have to build what sells. Don't for get about manufacturers like Lexus, Infinity, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo. Their cars that sell here are models that aren't on the top of economy, and they certainly aren't anywhere near 60MPG.

[Mr Incredible]

The issue is really the American mindset. Big, brash, wide open and hard working America. It takes a big vehicle to make America comfortable with all the stuff we carry over the many miles we carry it. Americans are can-do DIYers and haul gravel, lumber, toys, cabinets, furniture, bags of cement, tools, and trash...not just the always-mentioned soccer kids.

They don't always have room for more than one or two cars in the driveway, nor the money to title/license/insure/repair them. They buy for the work that will inevitably need accomplished on their owned or rented properties and then live with them the rest of the time. I think it would be over-generalization (and not just a little bit elitist) to proclaim these people as fools or pigs.

The price of gasoline is irrelevent in this scenario until it REALLY crimps a person's style of living.

I have my big truck for work stuff, a fast car for fun and style, and a cheap beater for MPGs. Not everyone can afford all that.

[SD26]

The price of gasoline is irrelevent in this scenario until it REALLY crimps a person's style of living.

Only on the surface. Transportation costs affect other prices and profits. Milk prices are incredible compared to a couple of years ago. That's related to two things: transportation costs (affected by petro costs) and food costs for animals (directly affected by ethanol subsidies and the demand and use of a feed product for food).

[Mr Incredible]

I concur that the price of gas proper is only one factor, and that it affects every other part of our economy. But my base assumption is one that is still relevant, IMHO.

Let us not forget that the price of gas today is artificially inflated and not the actual effect of primary availability. Between OPEC, the loan "crisis", restrictive eco-policies and the lack of domestic production, and the whims of futures traders, consumers are being bent over a stump.

If the planets were in alignment and the true supply/demand price of oil & gas were in place there would be no hue&cry across the land. The only people that would be concerned would be those solely concerned with pollution & Peak Oilers.

[Project84]

I'm going to voice my ignorance here...

My big idea is that vehicle age and technology advances should create a linear MPG increase.

It was my recent argument that american automakers are focusing too much on "top of the line" high-end, big horsepower cars (Cadillac's focus on RWD V8's, the V-Series, Chevrolet laying millions of dollars on the line to bring back to Camaro, producing the GTO in the states rather than Australia, even though sales numbers were less than impressive, Charger/Challenger reintroduction, and lets not forget the Mustang) and not enough focus is being made to improve commuter cars, which is why the American Auto Market is FLOODED with high resale value imports.

Recently, while digging around local junkyards, I've noticed an ever increasing amount of domestics there, and they generally sit, unmolested, for quite some time. When I see a new import, a week later, it's been salvaged for every part, leaving only the shell.

My recent arguement was based around my parent's car, a 1992 Pontiac Bonneville 3.8L FWD. It gets 28mpg highway. Used to get 30mpg, but at 240k mi. its getting less efficient. So I said, take a car 15 years older than that, 1977. I guessed that an "average sedan" like the Bonneville, in 1977 would only get 15mpg... which is a safe bet. 15 years later, in 1992, that fuel economy had doubled, just as the timeline had. So why hasn't this continued? It's now 2008, 16 years later, the same "average sedan" isn't getting 45 mpg like I think it should.

I was approached about "american's don't want bubble cars, they love stylish cars".... aerodynamics arguement. A 1977 car is a boat. Plain and simple. 1992 cars were getting more rounded styling, more efficient aero. 2007 cars are boxy again, sharp angled, aggressive styling. It looks nice, yes. But what about modding the grill for aero? What about belly pans and rear diffusers? What about seeing less spoilers added to cars and more aero-friendly side mirrors? Small things like these take nothing away from styling (especially a belly pan) and the american public can still be pleased.

After that, the argument switched to horsepower. Someone said, in 1977 cars weren't choked like they are now with regulations. True, kinda. But as regulations have tightened, so has our technology. The opposer stated that a 1992 Bonneville is "weak" with only 170 hp, and used the new Pontiac G6 as a comparison to state, "the 2007 G6 gets 36 mpg and has 230 hp!".

My reply:

If in 1992, a 170hp sedan like the Bonneville was able to get to highway speeds and not impeed safety while obtaining that speed, why not apply all the "new technology" of the "more efficient" 230hp 36mpg Pontiac G6, to a more refined 170hp Pontiac G6 capable of 45mpg? Seems logical to me.


This all happened on a Camaro forum I'm part of, which my attendance is dwindling to less and less. Muscle headed jackasses. They (and many other people) don't think the automakers have the technology of making more efficent cars. Their big arguments revolve around increasing HP to keep the american public happy. Who says we all need 300 horsepower 5.3L FWD torque steering monsters like the Impala SS or Grand Prix GXP? I for one, love the styling of those cars, but by no means do I require such horsepower. The speedlimits have stayed the same throughout the years, so why increase HP when we can't even use it and don't need to use it for safety reasons.

I'm fed up with the American Auto Industry and the simple minded followers. I don't want to buy an import, but I wish american automakers would bring more efficient cars to the US.

[scribbler]

http://www.closetheenronloophole.com/

[JanGeo]

Blame it on the marketing people who determine what is built - they have that "get ahead" attitude which requires performance and HP at any cost, the ability to pass a big truck as in the commercials. Plus I think the car makers are in the pockets of big oil.

[kamesama980]

because bigger, more, cheaper is so ingrained in the american mindset. people go for the big numbers, manufactureres find ways to put the big numbers on the paper, and increase them a smidge every year just enough to keep ahead of everyone else but not to bury them or themselves. I don't know how many people I know that have talked about how they like the visibility of a truck or SUV because of the high stance...meanwhile this is coming from a single woman who weighs in at a whopping 140 lbs. My counterarguement is that any new cars out in the last 5 years feel like a pillbox to me. HUGE pillars blocking the horizontal, low rooflines to restrict upward view (stoplights) the windshield is feet in front of me so the entire field is restricted...for safety? It's got 15 airbags so when the driver runs over a compact car they coudln't see because of the pillars (airbags) and roll over, the driver will be safe.

better comparison than an old bonneville vs new G6...old honda civic vs new honda civic. half again or more the mileage, similar acceleration, etc. more more more

[cfg83]

Wild Willie -

The US auto companies did it in the late 1990's with reduced weight + aerodynamics + hybrid drivetrains :

Do wheel skirts really work?


Originally Posted by theclencher

Ford Prodigy: .20 Cd (With big wheel wells and open-spoked wheels too! And look at all that ground clearance!)

1154


Very good points. Do you have anymore pic of the Prodigy? I find it hard to believe that it has a .20 Cd. Looks sure are decieving:eek: The front end looks like a MAC truck and it sits high enough to go 4 wheeling. Although it looks like they removed the mirrors.

Edit:
This car (http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=3481) was made in 1999 and got 70 MPG. Why the heck is it not on the road. Looking at it you would think that it was just another sedan. Ford blew it on this one. Same space as the Taurus but 2400 pounds.

This research by US car companies is one of the reasons why Toyota and Honda introduced hybrids. They didn't want to get caught with their pants down. In my opinion, the only argument against these concept cars is the cost of the lighter materials, but I think that this company may be on the road to solving that problem :

Fiberforge - What We Do
http://www.fiberforge.com/PAGES/what.html
Fiberforge is developing and commercializing a breakthrough manufacturing process for the production of lower-cost advanced-composite parts.

TAILORED BLANKS are the focus and foundation. They are a semi-finished good made from pre-preg thermoplastic tapes. Through tailorability they achieve scrap reduction and material optimization over their competition - both result in superior economics and performance.

CarloSW2

[101mpg]

I totally agreee with this. I'd buy the Ford Prodigy if they even made the thing because it gets 70 MPG and can hold an actual family.

What is with the ganster slit vehicles? They look ridiculous. Some even make me motion sick. Like the HHR - "High head Room?" WTH? I am 6'3" and have the legs of someone 5'8" so I NEED that headroom. Except that I am up so high I can't see down to that slit of a stupid winshield!!

because bigger, more, cheaper is so ingrained in the american mindset. people go for the big numbers, manufactureres find ways to put the big numbers on the paper, and increase them a smidge every year just enough to keep ahead of everyone else but not to bury them or themselves. I don't know how many people I know that have talked about how they like the visibility of a truck or SUV because of the high stance...meanwhile this is coming from a single woman who weighs in at a whopping 140 lbs. My counterarguement is that any new cars out in the last 5 years feel like a pillbox to me. HUGE pillars blocking the horizontal, low rooflines to restrict upward view (stoplights) the windshield is feet in front of me so the entire field is restricted...for safety? It's got 15 airbags so when the driver runs over a compact car they coudln't see because of the pillars (airbags) and roll over, the driver will be safe.

[JanGeo]

You want an xB but one of the older 2006 models - plenty of windshield and head room and you can lower the seat plenty and get even more headroom.

[kamesama980]

I totally agreee with this. I'd buy the Ford Prodigy if they even made the thing because it gets 70 MPG and can hold an actual family.

What is with the ganster slit vehicles? They look ridiculous. Some even make me motion sick. Like the HHR - "High head Room?" WTH? I am 6'3" and have the legs of someone 5'8" so I NEED that headroom. Except that I am up so high I can't see down to that slit of a stupid winshield!!

You actually fit in? I'm 6-4 and too tall for them by 3". As in I hunch till my chin is shoulder height (and the top of my head is against the roof) and my knees are beside the steering wheel....with everything fully adjusted.

ganster slits....you mean like everything made by chrysler? With the other big 2 following close behind.

[Minger]

Meh, I hate the American mindset. About half of the cars I see are trucks or SUV's, and half of those have only one person in them. I mean...right now, my family pretty much drives 3 vehicles (2 owned, and one is a company truck) - my dad has a chevy van for work, and they pay for gas. My mom drives an Acura MDX - prior to me driving, she drove the civic, which made a lot more sense.

But the thing is, my parents aren't willing to make the cut (or buy me a cheap car) to stop driving the MDX - it gets ~18 mpg on average, and my mom has ~18 miles to work...and then another 18 back again. I don't know what t hat has to do wtih anything, but whatever.

On the other hand, my family is asian and we basically don't buy American cars, besides my dad wanting another 'vette...which not buying American is kidna nice, because at least I have my civic (and my dad was trying to convince me to get something like a Jeep Wrangler...because they're 'fun' cars. So is a miata!)

But...Americans just don't seem to give a crap about MPG, but will complain to the ends of the earth about having to pay $50-60 when they have to f ill up because they get 15 mpg and have a 17 gallon tank or something. bleh :p

And whats with the new American cars looking so ugly? My friend's dad has a Chrysler 300...and its a 'luxery' car or something...one of t he ugliest things I've seen in my life. I'm tired, I'll go to sleep and shut up now :)

[Sporkman]

Fuel prices will change. In March of 2001 or March of 2002, I was paying $0.69 for gasoline in Georgia.

Those days are long gone. :)

[Rick Rae]

About half of the cars I see are trucks or SUV's, and half of those have only one person in them.
My neighbors across the street (a young couple with one child) had an SUV and a small car. Just this week they got rid of the small car. Parked in their driveway now?

Two SUVs. :eek: :thumbdown::(

Rick

[4bfox]

On the flip side of the coin....my wife KO'd an 8-point buck a couple weeks ago on the way home from school at night in her Ford Explorer. Took out the left headlight and the grill, but she drove it on home.

Probably wouldn't have been driving my `92 VX home after hitting a deer......or maybe he would have just slid on over the top!


My arguments for her getting rid of the "gas hog" and getting a Civic hybrid are falling on deaf ears now.

[Sporkman]

On the flip side of the coin....my wife KO'd an 8-point buck a couple weeks ago on the way home from school at night in her Ford Explorer. Took out the left headlight and the grill, but she drove it on home.
...
My arguments for her getting rid of the "gas hog" and getting a Civic hybrid are falling on deaf ears now.

Just tell her not to hit any more deer & she'll be fine. :)

[kamesama980]

How often do you hit deer? maybe drive a little slower in deer areas.

[SD26]

Those days are long gone. :)

That's what we said in 1997.

[SD26]

My mom drives an Acura MDX - prior to me driving, she drove the civic, which made a lot more sense.

But the thing is, my parents aren't willing to make the cut (or buy me a cheap car) to stop driving the MDX - it gets ~18 mpg on average, and my mom has ~18 miles to work...and then another 18 back again. I don't know what t hat has to do wtih anything, but whatever.

On the other hand, my family is asian and we basically don't buy American cars, besides my dad wanting another 'vette...which not buying American is kidna nice, because at least I have my civic (and my dad was trying to convince me to get something like a Jeep Wrangler...because they're 'fun' cars. So is a miata!)

But...Americans just don't seem to give a crap about MPG, but will complain to the ends of the earth about having to pay $50-60 when they have to f ill up because they get 15 mpg and have a 17 gallon tank or something. bleh :p


What an interesting post. The Honda MDX isn't a car that I like personally, but people buy it. It's a Honda, designed and developed in the US, assembled in Canada (http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/honda-mdx-2007.htm), so people buy it for the backing that they feel is Honda engineering in addition to fitting their budget, needs, and wants. Even Honda recognizes what's necessary in the market place to sell vehicles that continue to generate profits and keep the company moving forward and employing the good people they have. Doesn't every business want to be successful?

Honda actually has been building cars in the US by US workers since 1982. Might want to find out where your Civic was actually made.

It's just about hysterical how you talk about the Wrangler and the Miata. Maybe the same reason why your parents decided to get the MDX. Make your decision to buy your car for yourself carefully.

[Project84]

I'm skeptic that fuel prices could ever go back down but I would like to point out the simple fact that if we lessen our demand for gasoline (produce more electric/hybrid cars... or just make N/A cars more efficient which I think could easily be done) the price would stay the same for a longer period of time, or possibly go down some.

Will we ever see less tha $1 a gallon again? I think not.

Do I think there's an outlook for $2 a gallon? Probably not.

$2.50 a gallon is where I think it COULD go again one day. Being that whether there's demand for it or not, the big oil companies have been shown the sky is the limit on what they profit, I doubt they'll let price ever dip much lower than mid $2 range, whether our demand for oil dropped by 5% or dropped by 20%.


Does anyone agree with my first post? I'm curious if I'm the only person thinking this way.

Like I said, if they make a "technologically advanced and more efficient" 230 horsepower Pontiac G6 capable of 36 mpg, why not apply that technology to a 170 horsepower Pontiac G6 and obtain 45 mpg?

This is my idea, and possibly I don't understand the details as to why it's not possible, but I can tell you I don't support where the american auto industry is going at all.

[SD26]

Gasoline was below $2 last January, yes, one year ago, here in heavily taxed Wisconsin. Wasn't for long, but it was nice to see.

As for pushing a vehicle through air like the theoretical G6 scenario...

I think it's relevant to think about the fact that you're not moving in a vacuum just moving a pulled object. You're moving through air. So, if you have less power to do the work, it's going to require more throttle to do so using an amount of fuel to do so.

You're not using all 230 HP to get 36MPG. Nor are you using 170 HP to do the same work. If you're gonna improve the mileage, something has to change. Aerodynammics, weight, etc.

[Sporkman]

That's what we said in 1997.

This isn't 1997. Lots more economic activity demanding energy, not much more oil production.

[striegel]

The U.S. market does strange things even to foreign auto companies. Every new generation of Honda and Toyota seems to get larger, heavier, with bigger engines and more horsepower. That's just the opposite of what I've been looking to buy.

My 2004 Scion xB is really good with its 1.5l engine, but apparently not powerful enough for the American market so the 2008 model has over 2 liters and even the lowest model in their line is equipped with a 1.8l engine now.

I feel the same way as some of you do: 30 or even 35 mpg is nothing to be so proud of. I want my next car to get an EPA rating of 40+.

[StorminMatt]

This isn't 1997. Lots more economic activity demanding energy, not much more oil production.

Actually, things are not to different when it comes to energy-demanding economic activity. BUT, lots more people are driving gass guzzlers these days than back then. AND, unlike 1997, more people are driving in places like India and China. This last factor is a MAJOR reason why oil as become SO expensive.

[Biffmeistro]

I know I'm likely to get lynched for this... But as a preface, I'm not one to believe that cars are causing global warming. (I acknowledge it exists, but c'mon. MARS is warming up, and they don't have people there, or SUV's)

That being said, my main reason for trying to hypermile is to save money out of my pocket. I can't quite afford to fuel a gas guzzler. But neither can I afford to buy a house.

I'm one to VERY much believe in the standard of living idea. If you can afford to be opulent... Then do it! I mean, they make cars that are as comfortable as a living room! With all the amenities you could want! That would make a long trip so wonderful!

Long trips is one of the main reasons small cars don't sell so well in America. I mean, with the distance that I had to drive to see my fiance once a month, I would be hard pressed to find a place in Europe where I could drive that far and remain in the same country. And big cars have a hard time fitting through quite a few old European city streets, so they aren't as practical as in America.

The primary reason why small cars aren't popular in America, it's a matter of standard of living. It is a lot easier to afford to buy and maintain a big car than in Europe, and so people want to live more comfortably. Even in Europe, how many rich people do you see in VW Lupos? Or any subcompact? (Smarts don't count, as they are a fasionable thing, and ALL about image). If you can afford to buy and gas a Mercedes C class, you're not going to buy a Vauxhall Astra.

Even with most lower income people, you can just as easily buy a ten year old Cadillac as buy a brand new civic. There just isn't a NEED for tiny cars... People can so easily afford better, more comfortable rides. Not to mention safer.

It's very hard to get a European subcompact to pass American safety regulations. I know everyone says that "Well, we just need to get the SUV's off the road" but you can't. You're always going to have SUV's on the road, be they owned by the lower middle class and up, or only the upper class. And what about 18 wheelers? You wont' EVER get those off the road. And not all crashes are with other cars, too. You're more likely to die plowing into a tree if you're in a subcompact than a full size car. Or the deer situation. I know you jest about the "just don't hit the deer" but your wife is right, man. Your VX would have been totaled by a deer, whilst her SUV was just damaged.

Not just safety, but emissions, too. American emissions regulations are the most stringent in the world. Those cars just can't pass US safety and emissions regulations...

I say, if someone wants to buy a big car, let them, if they want to use a lot of money to have a large, comfortable ride with peace of mind, let them. "Raise gas until they can't afford to drive an SUV" Why? Why are you going to force them out of the standard of living that America offers? Why do we need to lower our standard of living? In America, Its' CHEAP to live GOOD! You don't have to be rich to live like a king! Our lower middle class has a higher standard of living than most of the world's upper class! Why is that a bad thing?

I personally hypermile so I can afford a couple more computer games a month. But if the rest of the country wants to waste their gas, they're the ones paying for it, not me.

*runs and hides*

[theclencher]

Oil is a finite resource so those that squander it mess it up even for those of us who don't.

[Biffmeistro]

Oil may possibly be finite, but there's a lot more out there than most people think. We haven't even used a third of the oil that exists in the world. (According to more recent estimates.)

And even the finite-ness of oil is debatable. There's a lot of evidence that points to oil being a byproduct of the mantle, not a fossil fuel. I've read of more than one case of an oil field (near a fault) being drained and capped, then re-opened a decade or more later to be found full once more.

[Hateful]

What's wrong? Oh I'd say Hollywood/Image. You have to understand we are all stars and need room for all our personal assistants and bodyguards. Also our big tough trucks make us manly men that can crush that guy in his little Cavalier like a bug ( as long as we keep the doors locked). If we park the truck near the bedroom window we may not even need Viagra tonight.

[theclencher]

Oil may possibly be finite, but there's a lot more out there than most people think. We haven't even used a third of the oil that exists in the world. (According to more recent estimates.)

And even the finite-ness of oil is debatable. There's a lot of evidence that points to oil being a byproduct of the mantle, not a fossil fuel. I've read of more than one case of an oil field (near a fault) being drained and capped, then re-opened a decade or more later to be found full once more.

I'm no geologist but I'd suspect if a dry well returned to some measure of productivity years later, it's because nature abhors a vacuum and a nearby oil deposit made it's way over to the <previously occupied> reserve.

If oil is still being produced (not just harvested) it better get it in gear! Cuz we're doing our darndest to burn it off!

So... in the space of maybe 100 years we've only managed to burn off 1/3 the global supply of a natural resource??? Wow... we're slackers! :rolleyes: Perhaps a review of this chart is in order?

http://gumption.org/1993/memo/landmarks/world_population.gif

Will production keep going up indefinitely? IMHO it won't, but if we're going to use oil in the manner to which we've become accustomed, it will have to!

http://www.theoildrum.com/uploads/12/world_context.jpg

[Sporkman]

I know I'm likely to get lynched for this... But as a preface, I'm not one to believe that cars are causing global warming. (I acknowledge it exists, but c'mon. MARS is warming up, and they don't have people there, or SUV's)


Bad logic & you know it. ;)

The fact is that CO2 absorbs infrared radiation. Now much CO2 that was previously locked up deep underground is being liberated into the atmosphere. Come to your own conclusions. :)

[VetteOwner]

yea the one thing thats keeping a majority of small cars out of america is part of our crash testing, the UN BUCKLED passenger has to be able to live after a crash of 30 mph!!! isnt almost every state have seatbelt laws now? then WHY are we still testing for this???? I say it should be up to the consumer of what car they buy with what safety feaures.

[Minger]

What an interesting post. The Honda MDX isn't a car that I like personally, but people buy it. It's a Honda, designed and developed in the US, assembled in Canada (http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/honda-mdx-2007.htm), so people buy it for the backing that they feel is Honda engineering in addition to fitting their budget, needs, and wants. Even Honda recognizes what's necessary in the market place to sell vehicles that continue to generate profits and keep the company moving forward and employing the good people they have. Doesn't every business want to be successful?

Honda actually has been building cars in the US by US workers since 1982. Might want to find out where your Civic was actually made.

It's just about hysterical how you talk about the Wrangler and the Miata. Maybe the same reason why your parents decided to get the MDX. Make your decision to buy your car for yourself carefully.

Yeah, I know that the MDX is an American one. I guess its stillb rand name afflicting us - I mean, I know the quality/reliability of American cars are getting better, but for me (maybe them as well), I'd prefer to drive Honda. My parents initially bought the MDX as something for long trips (my family (brother, parents and aunt) take 6 hour trips to Michigan once a year...) so we would be comfortable in it. And yes, I know that since the market wants it, they wiill make it...such is part of the case for Honda getting rid of the insight.


But...yeah. I just wouldn't like a wrangler (too big for me), and while I know the miata is not a very FE car (~30 or so mpg?) it's something I wouldn't mind driving. I mean, right now, I'm having a frustrating time getting my civic over 35 mpg (joys of winter) and fighting with the automatic transmission, as I just can't get it to shift sooner sometimes (usually into 4th gear at 35-40, unless uphill...then it will barely ever do it until it levels out or I'm going 50 and take my foot off the pedal).

I guess you mistook my notion of 'American' cars - I usually mean cars produced by the American companies. I wouldn't say stuff like Lexus and Acura count, as they're still essentially parts of the Japanese companies...my opinion I guess.

And my Civic is Canadian.

[jcp123]

US EPA continues to crush diesels.

Sad but true. And CARB (California Air Resources Board) is even harder on them.

As to what's wrong with Americans? If you have the money to buy an SUV and can afford the gas, then I have no problem with that. The only problem here is freedom...that's a problem I LOVE to have.

[Biffmeistro]

As to what's wrong with Americans? If you have the money to buy an SUV and can afford the gas, then I have no problem with that. The only problem here is freedom...that's a problem I LOVE to have.

THAT was my point. Why are we doing our best to crush the idea of a high standard of living?

[theclencher]

The mistake as I see it is equating waste, inefficiency, self-centeredness, and slobness with "a high standard of living".

[Biffmeistro]

Then what is a high standard of living? Especially as it relates to vehicles. Comfort? Safety? Features? What would you call a high standard of living?

[theclencher]

Good question- as it relates to vehicles.

I'd say if it isn't rusted out, smashed in, everything on it works, and you don't have to mortgage your whole future to have it, that is a high standard!

I know- my standards might not be... uh... typical?

Anywoo, in my book a high standard of living doesn't have to be costly and it doesn't have to scream "conspicuous consumption", "pretentiousness", and it doesn't really have to be a flagrant consumer of resources either. It doesn't have to scream "screw alla ya" either- by hogging the roads, hogging the parking spaces, hogging the gas stations, and generally having an aggression surrounding it that says "yeah, I'll mow you down and I don't particularly care". I think a high standard can still take into account reality. For example, reality is, we can't go 175 mph on the road so what purpose does it serve to have the capability?

Funny, people do often cite "comfort" as a reason for "needing" a barge, but I've ridden in plenty of barges that were no more comfortable than my smaller car; in fact some of them were less so.

P.S. I must be a wierdo as I think just because a guy can afford to do something, doesn't mean he should. I can afford to buy 100 gallons of gas several times a month, pour it on the ground, light it (or not)... but I don't think I should.

[4bfox]

I don't think you'll be slammed on this topic here....we're adults, right? You bring up an excellent point...we make the decision to drive what we want. I'm cheap, so I drive a 92 VX, and try to do whatever mechanical stuff I can. My wife teaches full time and has 2 part-time jobs, she wants the SUV. We both understand the consequences....I drive by the gas station about 4 more times than she does. She feels more secure (safer) in the SUV.

I haven't hit a deer in 35+ years of driving in rural Kansas. My wife hit her first one last month, after 30+ years of driving. So the odds of this happening aren't real high.

[VetteOwner]

Yeah, I know that the MDX is an American one. I guess its stillb rand name afflicting us - I mean, I know the quality/reliability of American cars are getting better, but for me (maybe them as well), I'd prefer to drive Honda. My parents initially bought the MDX as something for long trips (my family (brother, parents and aunt) take 6 hour trips to Michigan once a year...) so we would be comfortable in it. And yes, I know that since the market wants it, they wiill make it...such is part of the case for Honda getting rid of the insight.


But...yeah. I just wouldn't like a wrangler (too big for me), and while I know the miata is not a very FE car (~30 or so mpg?) it's something I wouldn't mind driving. I mean, right now, I'm having a frustrating time getting my civic over 35 mpg (joys of winter) and fighting with the automatic transmission, as I just can't get it to shift sooner sometimes (usually into 4th gear at 35-40, unless uphill...then it will barely ever do it until it levels out or I'm going 50 and take my foot off the pedal).

I guess you mistook my notion of 'American' cars - I usually mean cars produced by the American companies. I wouldn't say stuff like Lexus and Acura count, as they're still essentially parts of the Japanese companies...my opinion I guess.

And my Civic is Canadian.

just an FYI, wrangers arent big at all (stock ones)... thier about the same size (bit wider but not longer) than a chevette. same ammount of interior space too:D stock ones sit about the same height as a small base model pickup(s-10, ranger, dakota)

http://www.rvclearinghouse.com/images/Fozzbear/Jeep2.JPG pic of spretty base model jeep, they dont HAVE to have huge tires and a huge lift :D (wouldnt belive how hard it was to find a base model one) has a 2.5L engine with 5speed manual available, i dont know if all jeeps are 4wd... even then jeeps are just mechanical mountain goats:D

the cherokees are "midsized", then the grand cherokees are even bigger.

[Minger]

Well...how should I put it...I'm used to my civic and when I drive my aunt's TSX, that feels a bit bigger, adn the MDX just feels a lot higher/wider for me.

I just don't think I want a wrangler :P I'll stick to my ricers (without the annoying loud exhausts) that get pretty good mpg. I just hope the CRZ comes out soon...

[VetteOwner]

yes that is true, wranglers arent too good on mpg, BUT fun to drive none the less. and can tow alot. fun to go across cornfields and dirt roads too.

[Biffmeistro]

Well, for the hitting a deer... It's a lot more common in Indiana and heavily forested states. I mean, everyone in my family but me has hit a deer, Luckily most of them were going under 30 when it happened. My sister even hit one twice in 3 months... Her insurance rates have skyrocketed

[4bfox]

Actually, we've been lucky...I have friends that have hit 2 deer in a year. My wife was driving 45-50 on her accident...ice on the road. Damage would have been worse if she was doing her usual 65. Animal accidents really shouldn't count on your insurance....nothing the driver can do in most cases.

[Mr Incredible]

I drove 500,000 miles before I hit a deer. It was a night and I was going 70mph on a major highway. I saw it for only long enough to see what was going to happen so there was no time for avoidance.

Fortunately, I was in my F250. The only damage was to the bumper. I don't even want to think about what would have happened had I been in the CRX at the time. Everybody that runs into me seems to be uninsured...including that deer.

It's a no-brainer, really. If you're betting your life, whatever incident you have the odds favor you in a big truck than in a CRX-type weenie car. I'm sure somebody will think hard enough to come up with a low-odds type accident for a "what-if", but I'm talking odds-on favorite.

[VetteOwner]

ive never hit any animal (well besides a squirrel) but have come very close once or twice BUT i knew the deer would be out and about so i was extra cautios and saw them way ahead of time. that and where theres one deer bounding accross the road thiere ALWAYS another. my biggest problem isnt deer lately mostly large birds. almost smashed a huge turkey with my chevettes windshield(heard it hit my antenna which is less than a foot from my windshield) almost hit a hawk in it, almost drove thru a cluster of 14 turkeys...BUT i was payin attention and adoided them all. Now my sister who cant drive worth a crap has hit 4 or 5 deer in a neon and that car still ran...

[4bfox]

Right! That's the point....you knew the deer were out, and were cautious. I've had lots of close calls, but haven't nailed a deer yet. Now on my wife's deal, like Mr. Incredible said above, it was dark and the buck was jumped right in front of her. No avoidance possible.

[VetteOwner]

lol even at night its called turning the highbeams on when allowed and or having properly adjusted headlights, SO many cars i see have thier headlights down on the ground, in the middle of the road or up in the trees blinding everyone... sposta be left headlight aimed somewher ein the middle and the right one slightly to the right towards the shoulder FOR this deer hitting reason. that and if youve seen deer cross a certian area before there WILL be more sometime later on. or blind cornners, slow down and accually pretend there is a deer around the cornner or a stopped car etc.

[Mr Incredible]

Easy for you to say, VetteOwner, but sayin' it don't make it so.

You can only slow down so much before you're a hazard to navigation. You can only adjust your headlamps so much before they become unusable. And for the record, my lights are just fine and the deer came from the left.

Whether it's a deer or a Civic or another large vehicle, you're better off in something bigger than or equal to what hits you. FE is only one part of this world.

[theclencher]

A dog hit me while I was riding motorcycle (yes- it ran into me) and let me tell you, that sucked.

[VetteOwner]

yes true but you can stop in a relatively short distance if your going 55 or less, especially true in a small car (less mass to stop). also typically small cars handle better than rollover land barges.

you can upgrade your headlights to something brighter and whiter also. that was one if the first thigns i did to my chevette. also rewired my trucks headlamps to have the lowbeams stay on with the highbeams on(its like lookin into daylight!!!) huge beam pattern in almost a 180* range.

also make the horn louder and tap it if you see an animal in the road or somehitng. i think (havent tested too much) i noticed that if i lay on the horn the deer seems to freeze in the road, but if i tap it and make a pulsed loud noise the deer seemed to run off quicker.

BUT

liek you said theres only so much you can do, maybe the deer was suicidal who knows :p

ALOT of it has to do with the driver, is he/she goign to freeze and keep going if they see a deer in the road or are the immediately going to try to stop/avoid/honk/ to get the deer to move.

and other idiot drivers out there. cant do too much but if you see yourself in a situation where your about to get creamed, try to avoid gettign hit(if it means making an illegal right turn when noones comming then do it!!!) or if your about to get rearended let your foot off the brake slightly so your car has some "give" so it doesnt make the shock go to your body as hard. but if you think your going to get shoved into cross traffic stomp that brake pedal!!!
Or if a hit is inevitable try to make it a glancing blow rather than a direct hit.

but the only way to do that is if your aware of whats around you and paying attention to the road (not your gps, 150+ radio stations, cellphone, food, newspaper, laptop, etc) its scary seeing someone driving next to you going 70+ in heavy city traffic reading a newspaper and drinking coffee while driving...

sorry about my rant/drivers ed lecture but id hate to see or hear about one of you getting into an advoidable accident, they dont teach much of anythign like this in drivers ed...

theres been several stories about people having thier GPS things telling them to turn right and theyve turned onto railroad tracks, into resturaunts, etc...sometimes i wonder just how many braincells they have and why they would think the GPS could control thier car...

[VetteOwner]

A dog hit me while I was riding motorcycle (yes- it ran into me) and let me tell you, that sucked.

ouch, yea my friends lab ran into the side of my parked truck...:confused: i dont even wanan know how that happened as it was parked there over night even...
then another time a dog tried to bite the tire of our 82 escort while we were driving, tried to then wanged its head on the bumper. got up and ran back to its house:confused:

[skewbe]

Whether it's a deer or a Civic or another large vehicle, you're better off in something bigger than or equal to what hits you.

I could see a smaller strong wedge shaped car as being a real good defense against SUVs.

[Mr Incredible]

VetteOwner, I've lived accident avoidance for decades. I've had two of the Motorcycle Safety Foundation safety courses and rode big bikes for about twenty years. Knowing what's going on around you 360* at all times becomes a way of life.

500,000 miles and never had anybody come zooming up from behind me reading a map and going 20mph faster than I was, until That Day. I had just enough time to see her coming up in my rear view and let pure reaction take me to the roadside and out of her way. No time to think, only to react. Again, first time it ever happened to me and I did it right. The deer, on the other hand, came out of the black night and ran right across the front of the truck. Simply no time to react.

There are times when you simply can't avoid what Fate has placed in your path. There are things you can do to mitigate the odds, but having mass surrounding you is very often a good thing.

I understand this forum is all about FE and that many of you hate big trucks and SUVs (and their drivers) with a passion. But there's no denying bigger is often better in an accident.

And that's all I got to say about that...

Skewbe, where is the windshield in that wedge shaped car? About where the truck's rear bumper height its? You'd have to have a solid wedge with maybe video cams for eyeballs to get away with that. Mostly you'd just wedge yourself underneath and be harder for the paramedics to get out.

We have to be realistic. Trucks especially, and SUVs (whose time will come and go like the station wagon) will always be around in some fashion. FE cars will have to be by their very nature small and light (and thus crunchable). To be FE you'll have to give up some portion of your safety just like you do when you hop on a motorcycle. You make the choice and you take your chances.

[VetteOwner]

VetteOwner, I've lived accident avoidance for decades. I've had two of the Motorcycle Safety Foundation safety courses and rode big bikes for about twenty years. Knowing what's going on around you 360* at all times becomes a way of life.

500,000 miles and never had anybody come zooming up from behind me reading a map and going 20mph faster than I was, until That Day. I had just enough time to see her coming up in my rear view and let pure reaction take me to the roadside and out of her way. No time to think, only to react. Again, first time it ever happened to me and I did it right. The deer, on the other hand, came out of the black night and ran right across the front of the truck. Simply no time to react.

There are times when you simply can't avoid what Fate has placed in your path. There are things you can do to mitigate the odds, but having mass surrounding you is very often a good thing.

I understand this forum is all about FE and that many of you hate big trucks and SUVs (and their drivers) with a passion. But there's no denying bigger is often better in an accident.

And that's all I got to say about that...

Skewbe, where is the windshield in that wedge shaped car? About where the truck's rear bumper height its? You'd have to have a solid wedge with maybe video cams for eyeballs to get away with that. Mostly you'd just wedge yourself underneath and be harder for the paramedics to get out.

We have to be realistic. Trucks especially, and SUVs (whose time will come and go like the station wagon) will always be around in some fashion. FE cars will have to be by their very nature small and light (and thus crunchable). To be FE you'll have to give up some portion of your safety just like you do when you hop on a motorcycle. You make the choice and you take your chances.

ah yea seems liek you know exactly where everyone is withina 360* bubble. lol im the same way.:D granted i havent been driving as long but havent gotten into any accidents or hit another car.

i almost got rearended by someone once, was very close!!! stopped at a red light way back in traffic, cop had someone pulled over on the shoulder, guy come sup behind me and noticed he wasnt slowin down, i started flashing my brakelights and saw the nose of his car dive down and squealling of tires. came within liek 2feet of my bumper:mad: i tried following him to confront him but he was off like a bat outa hell...:thumbdown:


yea it will be awhile before SUV's are gone...minivans are on thier way out suv's moved in now these dumb crossover things are movin in. trucks are never going to go anywhere tho. been around since the dawn of car and havent dropped since.:p

yea i agree things just happen and nothign u can do can prevent it.

[8307c4]

Fuel prices will change. In March of 2001 or March of 2002, I was paying $0.69 for gasoline in Georgia.

Don't forget the reason for that was because the twin towers had just been dropped to the ground and folks were SO afraid of flying that airlines left a TON of planes grounded. That in itself resulted in far less fuel being consumed, and the prices dropped while the planes stayed on the ground, once the worst of the fear of shock was over, we saw a slow and steady increase.

No, I don't think we'll see another decrease in demand the likes of that, nor do I really wish for one, thou I do think the day we stop fooling around over in Iraq and Afghanistan we might see a small decrease in the price.

[jcp123]

THAT was my point. Why are we doing our best to crush the idea of a high standard of living?

Just don't do it by mandate. I am a libertarian when it comes to regulations, etc. If you can change the attitudes apart from using legislation, then that's great. It's also hard to "crush the idea of a high standard of living" - it's basic, biologically programmed nature to seek that.

[skewbe]

I question your concept of "freedom" and entitlement.

Lets make a loose comparison to the party we are having with oil right now.

What if you are in a canoe with someone else. You were fortunate to be able to have been taught how to swim, not so for the other person. You suddenly get a itch to boogie down (hey whats wrong with that?) and subsequently swamp the canoe and cause the other occupant the greatest of hardship. Does libertarianism mean you can ignore the effects your actions have on others?

Time for another visit from the wombat:
http://www.globalcommunity.org/flash/wombat.swf

[bzipitidoo]

First, what qualifies as "high standards" is purely subjective. If I wanted to drive a monster SUV, I could certainly afford to do so. But I like the numerous advantages of small cars. It's not just FE. They are more maneuverable, and easier to park. They feel faster (I think because of being lower to the ground and having the windows closer in so it looks like the scenery is whizzing by faster), so it helps me drive slower. You can easily reach across to the other side to open up doors. And they are actually quite safe. For one, it's a lot harder to roll a little, low center of gravity car. They can often stop in shorter distances. Contrary to what most people think, bigger is not always safer. There's a lot more to safety than mass and size.

Then there's the appearances angle. It just amazes me the value judgments people unconsciously make. Everyone thinks you're poor as dirt if they see you in a little old car, especially if it's dirty at the time. That suits me fine. If the guy with the chromed to the max shiny pickup that has two trailer balls hanging in a sack from the hitch stays as far away from me as possible so my car can't possibly sully his paint job, that's all to the good. See, the guys who drive monsters only think they have right of way. It's the most beat up worthless cars that have right of way in those sorts of pissing contests. They have a lot more to lose in a fender bender than I do. So they aren't going to try to push me around as much. If the Lexus driver keeps his distance because he fears I might be uninsured white trash, I like it. If the cops leave me alone out of pity that I'm "forced" to drive such a "crummy" car, that's great. The rare person who thinks well of me for being green is the best of all.

To me, "high standards" is the best little car I can find. And "best" does not mean most luxurious, it means most durable, easily maintained, and drivable. To me, the car is a tool, nothing more. It's not a status symbol. At times I've been stuck having to drive a Mercury Grand Marquis. Damn things wallow like a boat when turning a corner. Had stupid leather tops, which some people think is a bonus, but I know better. Leather tops are a maintenance nightmare. Give them tender loving care and they'll still be rotten in 10 to 20 years. Hated the feel of that car, the sense of waste and sluggish responsiveness in the way it lumbered its ungainly weight down the highway. The early pioneers made the same mistake. The earliest ones struck out on the Oregon Trail in the Cadillac of wagons, the Conestoga which was a big heavy lumbering wagon. After a day or two, those people were throwing out anything they could to lighten the load. Later pioneers learned from this and set out in much lighter and smaller wagons, taking only the real essentials, and were therefore able to travel faster and farther per day, and could negotiate obstacles more easily.

Some people can't understand why anyone would "waste" money tinting the windows of a little car. I have a cousin who thinks that way. It's taken him 20 years to get his notions about us right, and understand that we actually choose the little cars we have. Some of our neighbors have never seen past their preconceptions, and we sure aren't going to disabuse them. Was pretty funny when some yuppies lived next door. They'd strut past us like we were worms, and were always snitching to the city about the neighbors, us included of course. They were desperately trying to keep up appearances and most especially the all important "property values". Finally moved away to a "better" neighborhood.

[jcp123]

But here's the thing: I don't have any desire to take away your choice to buy a small, fuel efficient vehicle, nor do I believe I should have the right to if I wanted to do so. What makes anybody else think they are high and mighty enough to take away my choice or somebody else's choice to drive a bigger car?

It's a two way street that only looks attractive when the traffic's going your way. But on the road, like in life, you have to accept that there's going to be traffic that runs counter to your own.

[SD26]

Similarly, doesn't a manufacturer have a right to build vehicles that customers will buy? Certainly, they must conform to the rules and regulations that are set forth.

I'm all for better fuel economy, but a car the size of a Smart car won't fit a lot of my needs. I haven't seen electric cars that have the range that I would need for daily work.