Propane power?

[Javarod]

Well, since there's no forum that this seems to quite fit this, guess here'll do.

Basic question, what do y'all think about propane power? Setting aside the conversion price, from what I'm reading, it looks like a good idea. Cheaper fuel, cleaner burning, better for the engine (reduces maintenance costs), usually little to no change in mileage or power. Oh, and the supply is domestic, so it appears to be all good, but...

[thecheese429]

I have a friend who says that it isn't all that difficult to convert a car to use propane. I believe you just run the liquid propane in place of the gas in the fuel line. may be it would even work on an fuel injected car. he said he would run off his one tank in the back of the little pickup for months at a time.
yeah, it'll be hard to see the mileage difference, but really you're looking into economy. how far you can go on a dollar. that should be fairly easy to figure.

another thing: you never have to worry about running out of gas at a camp out/grill party!

[Javarod]

Well, its sort of easy, EPA regs require only approved technicians to do the conversion, and it has to pass an emissions test (poorly done conversions can pollute badly). Plus points as I mentioned are that properly done, its a high octane clean burning fuel, relatively cheap (definitely more so than gas). Basically its carried as a liquid in the tank, then run through a regulator and into a vaporizer, then the vapor is sent to the engine. It works with fuel injection, and in fact, current conversions are required to work with OBD II systems.

I'm lucky about the location of vehicle fueling stations out here in Phoenix. There's one at 3131 NW Grand Ave, which I go by or within a quarter mile of ever M-F, and there's two more along Bell Road that I pass M-F as well. Aside from those, there's around a half dozen that are sorta on my way, for example, a regular route I take is Northern Ave across to I-17 then up to Bell Rd. One station is on 19th Ave near Dunlap, so I'd simply veer off Northern, go up 19th to the station, then take Dunlap to I-17. No wasted mileage, although a little wasted time.

Overall, this looks like the winning combination, a domestically produced fuel that is a byproduct of gas and natural gas refining that costs less than gasoline, gets similar mileage and power (one article mentioned that at worst, you'd lose 7% of your engine's power), and basically operates the same. CNG on the other hand, you can lose over 50% of your engine's power apparently. I'd known that power density was rather poor with CNG, and the tanks are heavier, but I hadn't realized it was that bad.

[civic lover]

Here is my 2 cents. When I went to Vegas one of the taxi companies were running around with all propane driven cars. You could maybe research that company and get some information on conversions throught them if you aren't sure which direction to go. Another side note is I drive forklifts and clamp trucks daily. They run on propane. We beat the hell out of the trucks and to top it off they never get an oil change. WIth over 5000 hours on most of the trucks and the engine at nearly wide open all the time; the propane fuel definetly helps out when it comes to maintanence.

[86bigred]

i have had two propane vehicles,they don't get the same fuel economy as a gas motor.if propane is half the cost of gasoline you will be ahead.if your valve seats are not hardened those will be toast in no time.the octane rating is about 115 and it has less btu than gasoline,resulting in a slower burn witch equals less power,unless the engine was built for propane. good luck

[Javarod]

I have to check the price, last time I noticed the price of propane, it was running 25 to 30% behind that of unleaded regular. As long as the loss of mileage isn't significant, and it reduces maintenance needs, I should be ahead as I drive 250+ miles a day, so even a small savings in both areas is significant.

[RoadWarrior]

Unfortunately, propane is only cheap until everyone catches on. It's "byproduct" nature means there's a ceiling to the supply, there is meant to be a biofuel/renewable way of making it, but I'm not sure how commercially and ecologically viable it is.

I regard this as unfortunate because I've been thinking of an even more efficient way to use propane... it's a good refrigerant... so I was wondering about converting a motor to run liquid propane through it's coolant channels, then burning some of the hot gas, running the rest through a condensor/radiator then an exhaust driven compressor... could make a very efficient motor like that.. but it ain't ready for primetime unless the biofuel propane supply works out.

[Dust]

I have heard, at least from the oil burners, that as a supplemental fuel it only works out if it is 33 percent cheaper than diesel, so I would figure in a 33% reduction in power/mileage.

[93dagsr]

what about a propane/gas hybrid??

[acetone marty]

I have been running propane on my vehicles for over 20 years it is the best fuel going with the new prins and echo propane injection kits you actually gain power, my 2003 hemi was dynoed stock at 345 hp and 362 on propane. You will lose mileage i get 22 mpg on gas and 17.9 on propane, your motor will last forever. We converted a loomis courier van that ran from vancouver canada to seattle washington everyday and had over 1,000,000 kms on original motor G.M heard this and gave him a new van free.

[soletek]

I know one problem in CA with propane, there is now a road tax making it cost just as much if not more than gasoline. Of course, if you find a way to fill without them knowing, in other words from your home propane tank without triggering any red flags through your propane provider, your fuel would cost much less. As for the power potential: Propane generates 18,000 btus per lb at a stoich. air fuel ration of 15.5:1 compared to Iso-octane (the standard that all fuels are measured against) 19,100 btus per lb at a stoich. air fuel ration of 15.1:1. The most desirable difference is the MON of 104 and RON of 112 that equals an average octane rating of 108. That allows an increase in either static compression and/or a dynamic cylinder pressure increase with turbos, blowers and the like to offset the btu variance with gasoline. It is known to actually increase both performance and mileage. As a side note: Since the system never allows the fuel to enter the engine in liquid form there is no washing of cylinder walls and engine wear diminishes to a degree that surpasses even diesel engines. On the negative side, it does have a greater tendency to cause valve recession due to higher combustion temperatures and no dampening characteristics for valve-to-seat contact. As a point of interest: Unlike gasoline the richer the propane mixture, the hotter the combustion temperature, the leaner/the cooler. I would run propane if the government would stay out of it, but they don't want people to run propane. It's a much cleaner fuel, and weighs less, as well.

[RoadWarrior]

I would run propane if the government would stay out of it, but they don't want people to run propane. It's a much cleaner fuel, and weighs less, as well.

Well at the present time they can't encourage people to run propane, because there's not enough propane. That's probably why they "don't want" people to run it. If demand for propane went silly, they'd be flashing off millions of BTUs of natural gas at the rigs for the thousands of BTUs of propane that came with it.

[acetone marty]

With the new propane injection systems they have their own separate computer set up for propane to take advantage of the hi octane thats why you can make more power on propane than gas,but it comes with a cost lower fuel economy to make that power but it is the smoothest power, my hemi pulls so hard and smooth on propane but gets about 4 mpg less but considering the price difference 3.58 gallon versus 5.77 gallon for gas still worth it.

[Project84]

I work as a maintenance technician/mechanic for an airline catering company... our dominant catering truck is a Ford F700 with 429ci PROPANE powered engine.

Its not all as easy as your thinking.

There is a propane regulator consisting of a dozen or so diaphragms, there is a propane lock-off which is electronically controlled and told when to open (essentially operates like a throttle body), then there is the carburetor... basically sits on top of a 4 bbl carb + a stacker, it too consists of about 6 diaphragms and is a very tall piece to give the right amount of venturi effect.

In winter, the regulators freeze and the vehicle is uselss for hours... we run HD block heaters to prevent this, but below 15*F, they will still freeze up if not ridiculously maintained.

There really is no troubleshooting... you have a fuel problem.... you spend 2 hours and rebuilt the lock-off and regulator assembly because of ONE microscopic tear in one of the dozen or so diaphragms has caused a leak.

also, you must have a rated tank, and an emergency lock-off valve in the fuel line as well as a high press. emergency relief valve on the tank.

Unless you're a mechanic, with a minor in engineering, I would just leave the whole idea alone... its ugly.

[acetone marty]

This is where people give propane a bad name, I live in northern B.C Canada where it will hit -35 celcius and i have used propane for more than 20 years with none of the problems you talk about The liquid propane turns to vapour with engine coolant when you start the motor you need to let it warm up a while before you get in and drill it. Propane remains a liquid till -44 celcius above that it will begin to vaporize on its own. If you have an old system they had problems but when impco came out with theirs it was basically flawless i ran 350,000 on my chev pickup and its still running flawless Now they have the new echo and prins propane injection system which is totally flawless with more power and economy i now have 195,000 kms on my dodge hemi truck and havent even looked at it. If you do have any problems they are no more than using a gas engine but the benifits far outway the negatives. more power less emissions at least double to triple the engine life. The trick is to find a good propane mechanic someone that specializes in alternative fuels.I m fortunate that i have worked on them for a long time and can do my own work.

[Project84]

Actually, all my vehicles are equipped w/ Impco parts and I'm routinely changing one diaphragm so often that I know the part number!!

AD1-28-1

I'm just saying, personally I accept the fact that it extends engine life and is relatively easy to work on, but I wouldn't dare try converting an engine over due to the strict maintenance requirements I deal w/ at work.

[acetone marty]

I could see how you would have to maintain your systems regularly especially around aircraft. Its too bad that you have to keep changing the diapraghm in the vaporizer, in all the years we worked on them we only rebuilt 2 and they were really old. When you take apart the vaporizer is there a lot of oil [mercaptan the odoerant added to give propane a smell] sometimes if the tank is real old the oil builds up and plugs the vaporizer or lockoff. Change the lockoff filter once a year as when this is plugged it will cause the vaporizer to freeze up also low coolant levels will too. I would never recommend anyone to do their own conversion unless you have extensive knowledge of mechanics and gas ticket.I didnt convert my latest truck on the injected system too complicated for me too much wiring.

[brelandt]

Glad I ran across this...
I retired my 1992 Suzuki Sidekick after picking up my sister's 2002 Cavalier (cold A/C vs no A/C!).
Now that the Sidekick is sitting in the yard, but otherwise in good working order I want to play around with it.
It's the single injection T/B 1.6 liter monster that I'm looking into converting into propane.
I am interested in completely removing the gas system and going strickly propane.
However, I can not find a "cheap" kit for F.I.'s.
Gopropane has a kit to switch the 1.3L carb Samari's over for off road use.
Can this be done on my 1.6? I think if I swapped in the 1.3 intake manifold and older vaccum distributor then cut out the ECU it might work......? Also the EGR looks like it's vaccumed into the T/B, might not work afterwards?
Anyhow, just had to add my thoughts on this.
BTW the Sidekick has over 200,000 miles and no license plate to deal with.
Might be a BIG job?