New HHO Gen...need help wiring...

[Nightwish]

I'm about to build my first HHO gen...

Based on what i saw, I built the inside with 4 SS plates all connected with SS screws. But now someone said that it will short out and never work.

How is the INSIDE plates put together and wired? I have fuses and a switch and a check valve , but am worried about the plates. Should they have rubber spacers?

here it is:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/scooterl/Dogs-March-08-8009-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/scooterl/Dogs-March-08-8010-1.jpg

The canister...PVC tubing with caps...

Thanks

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

Perhaps this will clear things up:
http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxPQdrfSySI&feature=PlayList&p=ED253DD0C8EADC5B&index=0&playnext=1
Do some more research before you wire up this dangerous device; it is apparent that you need to learn the physics and safety rules available at this time.

[Nightwish]

OK...

Here's what one skeptic said...I do believe he is trying to help:

Nightwish, would you like for me to explain to you the problem with your device before you blow too many fuses?

Your metal plates are all connected electrically. The current will flow through the plates, not through the water. The plates have no resistance. Your current is going to be very high. Basically, you are installing a short to ground. Better hope your fuses blow before you burn up your electrical system.

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You only need 2 plates, and they cannot be connected together by anything conductive. One wire hooked to each plate. You can use rubber grommets inserted into the holes, with a bolt run through them, so long as the bolt isn't contacting both plates.

----------------------------------------------

The plates won't do you any good the way you have them connected. Heck, all you've built is a big stainless steel wire. If you are trying to increase your surface area, you need to hook every other plate up in parallel. Every other plate needs to be positive, and every other plate needs to be negative, and the negative plates need to be isolated electrically from the positive plates.

But you go with your way. I just want to be there when you explain the electrical fire to your insurance adjuster.

[RoadWarrior]

The current path is through ionic exchange with the electrolyte, the positive and negative plates must be insulated from each other for this to happen.

[Nightwish]

Good stuff...SMACK knows his stuff !!!!!!

I'm gonna study, re-work the unit and try it tomoorow....

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

I have another question as I'm building a Smack unit for our 4banger. Why not rubber grommet the holes on one hole and turn each plate upside down to it's neighbor - giving a pass-through for one plate and connecting the next, using SS bolts instead of nylon. So you would have say, the end plate "hot", pass thru the next, and "hot" at the next and so forth. Each alternate plate would be opposing polarity. I think there were some units done like this non-floating arrangement, but I'm seeing a difference in the voltage drop (and corresponding amperage) since it's basically just two large pos and neg areas next to each other. Smack's loses voltage across the water voids and through the plate series.
I want to understand how this hot arrangement could work if it's been done. Surely it would produce more gas, or is the, what, 3v limit true? If so, then why not transform down to 6v of feed?

[ZugyNA]

The Smack himself...recommends following his design exactly. That's the only way I'd do it to get the expected performance. His design... like the water4gas.. is the result of a lot of testing and tweaking. :thumbup:

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

I'm also a bit of and inventor myself. Smack said his unit was middle-of-the-road for ease of build, cost, etc. He went on to explain some of the reasons why - one of which was the plates touching, so he used 2mm spacers when 1mm would work much better. I found a way around that and will be using 1mm in mine.
You have to keep in mind that Smack set up for success and gave his formula and expects most folks to screw it up if they tweak it. But all this stuff is pretty experimental right now and with some diligent reading you can get sort of a feel for what works and what doesn't, outside of mathmatical interpretations. I also had an idea for an easier container that may wind up with more than a 3" wide plate array. Eleven bucks at Lowe's gets you a 6x4" plastic Electrical tag box, complete with lid and gasket, plus two mounting tabs. My electrician says they're static resistant too, if that's of any use.

[ZugyNA]

From what I know now...I'd only use 316 ss or better...if my real world experience is any indication...the 304 switch plates are not going to last too long.

http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Other_Peoples_Projects/fixaze

You see a lot of before pics...but not too many AFTER? :rolleyes:

I seen several people make the smackbooster and end up disappointed because they thought they knew better...variations are OK...but they need to be well thought out?

These electrolysers are fairly simple...except for the details. :D

Is that box ABS plastic?

Do you have a link?

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=10030-223-E987R-CAR&lpage=none

You'd probably need to find a way to maintain the fluid level?

[RoadWarrior]

Yeah, I'm gonna be "doing my own thing" somewhat, because I reckon normal grades of stainless steel are a bit of a compromise. It would appear that high proportions of nickel to low proportions of iron in an alloy needs less over-potential for H2 generation, what this means is that you might be able to use 12-20 cells across battery voltage instead of 6-7. So I'm looking at pulling apart microwaves, dead disk drives, vcrs, etc for scraps of mu-metal, monel, permalloy etc... Or I might just nickel plate some sheet steel and heat it red hot for a while and maybe enough iron would bleed into the nickel surface to get the right effect...

If you get a minimum voltage setup, that doesn't make much heat, it should then be possible to scavenge coolant heat into the process without boiling your electrolyte dry...

HOWEVER... if you're learning basic electrics, physics and chemistry as you go along, you should stick rigidly to a design like the smackbooster, let it teach you stuff, and figure out a better way next time.

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

Zugy: yeah, that's the box, unfortunately there seems to be someone who used that very idea allready, so I don't claim it. I'll put a Smack level tube on it, maybe with a T fitting to another tank, possibly a small float valve...I'd like to find something like a miniature toilet valve...and gravity feed from another tank? I worry about G-force, braking and all, but it should work as long as it doesn't stick.
aRWyew...interesting, especially at the price of SS. Smack said the plates would touch at 1mm...but I've cut the bevels off of half the plates and have burnished the edges round with a wire wheel...then re-flattened them with a rubber mallet and a straightedge...made washers from an innertube (1MM!) and put them to the beveled plates on the opposite side. They look fine, no touching, and you can check them for warping with a flashlight any time. I don't know what'll happen when it gets warm tho. No time for the build just yet, but I'm taking pics.
I'm tinkering with some ideas like motorcycle oil coolers and running tubes thru the box from them...a fish pond pump maybe to circulate? Of course for my truck I'll probably need a higher output unit and a VPM to keep it cooler, along with the dual-edge MAP sensor enhancer.
Right now I'm wondering if the little Toyota alternator is gonna handle even a Smack type unit.

[ZugyNA]

I got a gain running at only 5-6 amps hot...good idea to start somewhere around that and then move up in amps?

Heres an idea I found "out there" that might work:

"Keeping the water level up in a cell:

I have come up with a very simple method of keeping the water level above the plates in an electrolysis tank.

The basic idea is that you use a water tank placed above the electrolysis tank, and the inlet hose to the electrolysis tank feeds in at the same level as the top of the plates.

The water tank should have a sealed top, and just a single hose outlet at the bottom to feed the electrolysis tank.

When the water level in the electrolysis tank falls below the level of the inlet hose, gas or air bubbles will move up the feed hose and water will drop down until the water level blocks off the feed hose, at which time the flow will stop.

It sounds simple, but i've been using this method for years to water seedlings in a tray when I sprout them for my garden. I use an old water bottle with one hole in the bottom, fill it with water and stand it in the tray with the jiffy pots.

Has anyone tried applying this simple idea to an electrolysis cell yet? It is certainly better than installing pumps and floats.



No, it'd be hydrogen. The top of the water tank would pressurise to the same pressure as the electrolysis tank and balance out the water level.

Only when the pressure in the electrolyzer drops after that, the pressure in the top of the water tank will then push the water down.

In other words, as long as you don't radically go changing the pressure in either tank in short spaces of time, it should still work.

Another possibility to combat the pressurising effect would be to install a 2nd hose at the top of the water tank that goes to the top of the electrolysis tank, and has a one-way valve that only allows airflow from the water tank to the electrolyzer.

Under normal circumstances, The water in the water tank is held up by it's own vacuum.

I would suggest you try this anyway, I think you'll be surprised how well it works."

[RoadWarrior]

Smack said the plates would touch at 1mm...but I've cut the bevels off of half the plates and have burnished the edges round with a wire wheel...then re-flattened them with a rubber mallet and a straightedge...made washers from an innertube (1MM!) and put them to the beveled plates on the opposite side. They look fine, no touching, and you can check them for warping with a flashlight any time. I don't know what'll happen when it gets warm tho.

Throw the whole plate assembly deally in a pot of boiling water on the stove, then you'll know if it expands funny.

[cugir321]

You need nylon or plastic spacers between your plates of different polarity (+ or -)....they need to be electrically isolated. The design is okay. I have one similiar except it has an explosion relief valve on the top. It works but it's not the best design to take apart and to seal. Lowes has a water filter that's flat on top with two metal threaded fittings for hoses....you can use one for output and one for explosion relief. It also has a sealed screw on top. Very important because it will take you a while to understand the heat thing....stuff will loosen up in the process and you'll have to take it apart. also easy to clean.

Also, I believe you have 4 plates....correct me if I'm wrong. There's no gain to 4....you're better with 3 or 5. In a 4 plate system, the negative's give off hydrogen and the positives give off oxygen. There's no need for the extra oxygen plate. Just make two negative and one positive for a three plate system.

Be careful with what your doing....find someone who understands electrical stuff before you hook it up....hydrogen is very explosive. Believe me!!! I've seen it go bang. A small amount is like a shotgun blast. You're gonna be hell on fuses the way your hooked up.

I like a bubbler.....it's protection from backfire and it makes it easy to check if your system is working....look for the bubbles. A windshield reserve container or radiator reserve works nicely.

I'm about to build my first HHO gen...

Based on what i saw, I built the inside with 4 SS plates all connected with SS screws. But now someone said that it will short out and never work.

How is the INSIDE plates put together and wired? I have fuses and a switch and a check valve , but am worried about the plates. Should they have rubber spacers?

here it is:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/scooterl/Dogs-March-08-8009-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/scooterl/Dogs-March-08-8010-1.jpg

The canister...PVC tubing with caps...

Thanks

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb223/quadancer/Hobbies/TightSmackGrid-1.jpg
testing it any day now; I'm busy with work first.

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb223/quadancer/Hobbies/HHO010.jpg
Two bucks after searching thrift stores with a magnet. Also found
some SS pots, but as you get closer to the rims, they start showing ferrous material for some reason.

[RoadWarrior]

Has anyone tried applying this simple idea to an electrolysis cell yet? It is certainly better than installing pumps and floats.


I've thought about doing it like that... then realised I'd end up with a large container full of stochio mix of HHO.... I didn't like that idea.... so I'm back to looking for small pumps and float valves.

[quadancer@bellsouth.net]

wow, no kiddin'! I was liking the idea too, except that there is thermal expansion and contraction to some extent - and I have no idea what would actually happen. Probably overfilling. I found a plastic float valve fairly cheap here:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=6109&product%5Fid=12596&variant%5Fid=23077 -floatvalve$12.56
Now to figure out the height problems under the hood, and what to build my floatvalve tank out of - (pvc, probably) - and what to do about the excess water height needed in my generator (barely larger than the plates)...oh, and other considerations. At least it fits like a glove in the Silverado over the wheel well.