PCV jar not working as expected

[Flatland2D]

I made a PCV jar out of some PVC using silica and some BB's as the catalyst. The problem is the hose going from the jar to the PCV valve is collasped under vacuum. Shouldn't this line be under positive pressure? Also, air is coming out of the hose from the manifold to the jar. Essentially it's flowing backwards. Do I have the concept wrong? Shouldn't air be flowing from the PCV valve to the intake manifold? After a bit of driving the inside of the canister was pretty much spotless with no oily residue that it should be collecting. It smelled like exhaust but that was it. What's wrong with my setup?

[Matt Timion]

Hey Flatland2d, and welcome to the board.

Since I've never made the catch can using the BB method, I'm not totally sure. Would you care to post pictures?

The airflow should be going from the PVC to the intake manifold, and not the other way around. This is one of the reasons I'm going to get the water filter for an air compressor and use it. I should be leaving in a few minutes to get it. It has a directional arrow on it so people like me can't install it backwards.

As for the BBs being clean, not all people will have oil residue in their catch can. It really only happens when the seals are a bit worn out and oil creeps past them. If your seals are good, and your engine is in good shape, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing accumulated in the catch can at all.

I will think a little about your problem and hopefully come up with something.

[Flatland2D]

Thanks for the quick reply. I drove a few more miles (30, mostly highway) and checked the canister again. This time suction was coming from the right place. I have no idea what happened earlier. Maybe I had the inlet/outlet ports confused in my mind? The canister had a very small amount of dust at the bottom, most likely small particles of the silica I'm using (the crystal kitty litter). No liquids though.

I took some pictures anyway. The design is a lot more complicated than it needs to be, but being engineering minded I had to come up with something of my own. There's not much different conceptually. Air comes in the top barb, flows down a 3" nipple that connects to the catalyst canister which is filled with kitty litter and zinc coated BB's. They are held in place by window screen wrapped around a few times and in different directions so the grids don't line up. There is a small drain hole in the bottom of the catalyst canister for oil and sludge to drip into the main canister. The output is the side barb. The input, output, and drain hole are also filtered with the window screen to prevent any pieces of catalyst from leaving the canister. However, the kitty litter is not of uniform size and the very small dust sized pieces will fall through. The ring clamp is what holds it in the engine bay. I have it located against the firewall behind the intake (not the manifold), just to the right of the battery. It's the only space large enough (and close enough) where I could still get a screwdriver down there to install it. I can give better explanations and more pictures if anyone wants them.

<img src="http://www.morlinos.com/delsol/pcvjar1.jpg">

<img src="http://www.morlinos.com/delsol/pcvjar2.jpg">

I was expecting more sludge in there because my engine does burn oil and either the rings or head gasket or both are going out. The engine has a little over 70k miles. I'm also running Mobil 1 Sythetic and I've heard that's harder to break down. Maybe I just need to drive around more or test some higher rpm's where I really burn the oil. It's a good thing it doesn't fill up as fast as I expected. Dumping it requires a cool engine and some time. I was thinking of plumbing a needle valve to the bottom of the canister and some tubing so my car can "take a whiz" when it gets full.

Thanks again for the help. I'm looking forward to trying out some of the ideas out there. Specifically, hydrogen, EFIE and water injection.

[SVOboy]

Well, that is definately a beautiful thing there. I'm glad your problem got worked out, and welcome to the site, it'll be good to have you around here. Hopefully you can also help settle our water injection stuffness. I'd write more. I have a lot I need to post about, but I need to finish some homework first.

[Matt Timion]

your device looks nice. It really does. if you have the time, please do a writeup on how you built that and I'll include it in the article.

I've read two theories on this catch can. One says to put it in series with the PCV line, and the other says to put it on the line leading from the valve cover to the intake manifold. Some people put one on both. I've tried two hardware stores now and I can't find the air filter to make mine. I need to try Home depot now as it is my last hope.

People all around are interested in the PCV catch can, as turbo'd people use it too. More into is always better to help attract people here.

BTW, how is the B-series in the Del Sol?

[Flatland2D]

Thanks for the compliments. I haven't heard about the valve cover method. I did play around with that some today though. I removed the little filter that covers the barb on the valve cover. I had heard things like this filter doesn't allow the PCV valve to do its job properly because it changes the pressure inside the engine. Well, I put some duct tape over the barb, then put the filter on over it simply to hold it on better (heat kills the glue). I started it up and there was a weird noise coming from my engine. I took off the filter and the duct tape was being sucked in really bad, like a reverse bubble. I shut it off and put the filter back on and didn't mess with it anymore. Needless to say there is a strong vacuum there. The intake barb is also at a vacuum, so I don't see how that idea would work.

I will consider writing about it in more detail when I have the time. I may just model the device in SolidWorks instead of buying parts to make another that I wouldn't use. That way I could explain the construction better than showing a completed unit. There's a few things that have to be done in a certain order so it comes out right.

I will post back in this thread after I drive more to report any sludge buildup.

The B18C1 is awesome. I bought it about two and a half months ago. It already had all those upgrades listed below. It's such a fun car to drive. My previous car was a '91 Buick Skylark granny car that drove like a boat. Not to mention the gas mileage sucked.

<img src="http://www.morlinos.com/delsol/delsol2.jpg">
I've since removed those stickers put there by the previous owner

Tanabe Hyper Medallion full catback exhaust
Short air intake
Moroso aluminum oil pan
Carbon fiber hood (painted to match car)
14" MB Motoring wheels
Wings West Racing Series polyurethane body kit
Black tail lights
Stealth box with two 8" subs and 300W amp

[Matt Timion]

your car looks nice man. I used to hate del sols, but they've really grown on me. A lot of people don't realize that the "Del Sol" was marketed outside of the US as the CRX. I guess insurance companies were charging too much for the name "CRX" so Honda changed the name to Del Sol in the USA.

Correctly me if I'm wrong, but arn't Del Sols much heavier than their EF counterparts? I guess I could go and check myself, but what fun would that be?

Oh, I want to commend you for painting your CF hood. Too many people forget that the purpose of CF was weight reduction, not the "CF" look. a lot of people will get CF hoods that weight more than the stock hood just for looks.

[Flatland2D]

A lot of people seem to either love or hate del sols. I started looking at them because I wanted something more sporty than my Buick (though I completely understand it's not a "sports car") and really good fuel economy. The S model got up to 41mpg highway. Even though the engine swapped in mine brings in about 64 more horsepower, the drop in mpg isn't that much.

A del sol is about 2300lbs. I think it's kind of heavy for it's size, but it's really not that big to begin with. They could have been made lighter. That's the nice thing about CRX's.

Thanks but I can't take credit for painting the hood. I would have done it myself given I had the money for a CF hood and paint. The previous owner bought the car pretty much stock and made it into what it is. He's a general manager at a body shop so he at least knew what he was doing when putting on the body kit. The choice of polyurethane over fiberglass was a good one, too. He told me he was selling it to pay off an Impala he was fixing up. I think i got a pretty good deal out if it.

[Matt Timion]

2300 pounds is pretty heavy for that little car. I guess they did add a few features since the CRX to account for the weight. The engine is larger, and I'm sure it has some power features (locks and windows?) that the CRX does not.

My 89 four door sedan weighs in at 2200lbs bone stock. The more I see these CRXs cruising around the more I want one. Then again, I feel the same way about 92-95 hatchbacks. the more I look at them the sexier they are.

I'm essentially turning my 89 Sedan into a VX with my motor swap. The good thing, however, is that I'll have power windows, locks, and four doors where the VX didn't have any of these things.

[SVOboy]

It's awesome. This is my second time on the thread cuz I saw it first in C++ II with my friend and he also commented that it was "hot." In any case, I also like the painted cf, I'm not a big two-toner. Also, I think I might add that power steering prolly adds a bit of weight to the newer stuff, and I would say a little less fun. I dunno about a nice suspension with power steering to be honest, the damn crx is pretty nice except I need to do some more tie rod end work and prolly rack end bushing, and then tires cuz I totally hydroplaned and almost wrecked today my tires are so old and crappy. It's a nice looking ride, and the gas mileage beats most out there to boot.

[Flatland2D]

Update: I opened up the PCV canister again today and again found no buildup of any kind. There was slightly more dust collected at the bottom, but no liquid or residue. This was after maybe 130 miles of driving. Everyone else that I've read about has noted a lot of sludge after a week's worth of driving. I don't have a single drop. Maybe the air in my crankcase is cleaner somehow. The car does burn oil somewhere inside the engine as I have to top off every-so-often. I really should do a compression test just to get a general idea of how my engine's running.

I'm about to go on a test drive to measure my mpg. I doubt I'll see any difference than without the PCV canister. I'm only going to drive for 2 to 3 gallons of gas, so it won't be incredibly accurate, but it should give me an idea. I'll be using the top-off method and measuring how much gas it takes to fill back up.

[Flatland2D]

Trip: 79.55 miles
Gas used: 2.295 gallons
Fuel economy: 34.7 mpg
Driving type: Highway
Target speed: 65 mph

Gas prices just dropped here so I decided to fill all the way up to test this. First off, I know 2.295 gallons is not a lot of gas to test with, but I think I got an accurate number. My measured mpg before the test was 35 mpg, so this somewhat verifies my result. I did not gain any mpg by adding my PCV canister. I wish I could say that it's at least keeping my engine cleaner by filtering out sludge but it doesn't look like it's doing that either. As of now I don't think it's serving any purpose on my car, but I will keep it on there. Other people with PCV canisters have reported a noticable increase in mpg, as well as sludge building up that needs to be emptied about every other tank.

Tire pressure was kind of low for this test. I didn't want to mess with them because then I'd be changing more than one variable at a time. I checked pressure a few days ago and the tires were around 30 psi or a little under that. I will fill them up to 40 psi and repeat the test. After that test I will try adding acetone.

[SVOboy]

Very interesting about the pcv can, hmm...

In any case, when you do tires and acetone make sure to post your results in the stuff in the experiments section. Right now I'm working on my tire test and then I'll be working on acetone.

[dfoxengr]

great thread on honda PCV systems.

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935

[Flatland2D]

Sorry to bring up this old thread, but I opened my PCV canister up a few days ago and wanted to give an update. After a little over two months of use, I had accumulated about one tablspoon of sludge. I don't know if the idea is really worth it on my car. I run Mobil 1 Sythetic which people say is harder to break down so it's more difficult to filter. I will continue to keep the canister on just for the heck of it, but as my first tests showed, it's not helping any in fuel economy. Maybe it's at least keeping my engine a tiny bit cleaner.

[Matt Timion]

Sorry to bring up this old thread, but I opened my PCV canister up a few days ago and wanted to give an update. After a little over two months of use, I had accumulated about one tablspoon of sludge. I don't know if the idea is really worth it on my car. I run Mobil 1 Sythetic which people say is harder to break down so it's more difficult to filter. I will continue to keep the canister on just for the heck of it, but as my first tests showed, it's not helping any in fuel economy. Maybe it's at least keeping my engine a tiny bit cleaner.

I actually bought all of the stuff to make the air filter PCV catch can a few months ago. I havn't installed it yet. I'm not even sure I know where it is. Perhaps I'll get to that soon so that I can get a mroe detailed "how to" section on this site. Even a tablespoon of sludge is better than nothing. At least you're saving your engine from that extra crap.

[SVOboy]

Indeed, I need to set this up too. I have a feeling my engine is more likely to need it that some others.

[rh77]

Indeed, I need to set this up too. I have a feeling my engine is more likely to need it that some others.

I just installed mine using the air compressor water collector (removed the filter) and I can see it working already. It was super easy to install - I just cut the PCV hose, installed the screw-in hose connectors for the ends, and plugged-in the hoses into the nipple ends (then I put hose clamps on each end for a good secure connection). I already have a visable amount of residue after a 25 mile trip. I can't believe this junk goes directly into the intake and basically burnt into the atmosphere -- and gunking up the works. This should be high on the list of things to do for mods. I have pics if anyone is interested...

RH77

[SVOboy]

Pics pics! I love pics. I'm going to go the route of the air compressor thingy that you just splice into the pcv line. It looks good, no assembly besides the hose stuff, and it's clear so you can see what's going on without any dissasembly.

[Matt Timion]

Indeed, I need to set this up too. I have a feeling my engine is more likely to need it that some others.

I just installed mine using the air compressor water collector (removed the filter) and I can see it working already. It was super easy to install - I just cut the PCV hose, installed the screw-in hose connectors for the ends, and plugged-in the hoses into the nipple ends (then I put hose clamps on each end for a good secure connection). I already have a visable amount of residue after a 25 mile trip. I can't believe this junk goes directly into the intake and basically burnt into the atmosphere -- and gunking up the works. This should be high on the list of things to do for mods. I have pics if anyone is interested...

RH77

Care to do a write up? :)

[rh77]

Indeed, I need to set this up too. I have a feeling my engine is more likely to need it that some others.

I just installed mine using the air compressor water collector (removed the filter) and I can see it working already. It was super easy to install - I just cut the PCV hose, installed the screw-in hose connectors for the ends, and plugged-in the hoses into the nipple ends (then I put hose clamps on each end for a good secure connection). I already have a visable amount of residue after a 25 mile trip. I can't believe this junk goes directly into the intake and basically burnt into the atmosphere -- and gunking up the works. This should be high on the list of things to do for mods. I have pics if anyone is interested...

RH77

Care to do a write up? :)

I actually used your How-To as a guide using the Cambell Hausfeld moisture collector...

RH77

[SVOboy]

Damn pyramid quotes, disable them Matt!

http://http://www.geocities.com/frontsidesk8er/PCV_Catch.jpg

[KenS]

Hey group. I installed the campbell hausfeld compressor water separator on my vehicle. The installation was a cinch. Bought the filter at Walmart for 13 bucks. Went to the auto supply and bought proper hose and two screw on fittings to attach the hose. Installed the filter with the flow arrow aiming to the vacuum source(not the PCV) and have already seen results. In 400+ miles, I have found a brownish product of oil and stink associated with crankcase smell. No water, but product looks lighter than oil and darker than fuel. Looks like about every second refuel I will have to empty the jar. Cost about 22 bucks to install. Engine seems peppier. Mileage increase? Don't know yet. But the visual and seat of pants feel are good enough results for me. My vehicle is a PT Cruiser with 35,000 miles. No notable oil consumption. I figure the residue is oil diluted by wasted fuel bypassing cylinder combustion. Has anyone ever had their "sludge" tested?
One great thing about the cambell hausfeld separator is the way it works. The incoming flow enters the jar area in a swirl via a screw fixture in the separator head to direct the incoming charge to spin. This swirl helps the incoming vapor to contact the jar wall. This contact brings wet particals together to fall heavy to the bottom of the jar while the air/fume passes through the separator to the vacuum source in the engine. Only disappointment is its' size. Remember, the arrow points to the vacuum source. When the head is removed, it is visible why. The incoming charge enters the jar and leaves through the filter. I left the filter on mine. It hasn't posed a problem yet. For this contraption to work 100%, any oil level accumulated has to be drained before reaching the filter or the engine will receive a healthy dose of the residue and either misfire and smoke at the exhaust or worst yet, die.
I will be monitoring fuel economy. I figure there will be improvements in my case. I hope this info will help others waiting to install one on their vehicle. ken

[Matt Timion]

Hey Ken,

It's amazing how much this thing works. I have had the parts in my garage for a few months now and I've just been to lazy to put them on my car. Can you post a picture of the screw in hose connector you used? I want to make sure I'm using the right ones.

On an interesting side note, my HOnda n600 (1971) seems to have something like this built in. There is a tube that connects the cylinder head to the airbox and under the connection there is a small petcock valve to let oil out. Maybe something like this was much more helpful on carburated cars.

About mileage, the jury is still out on that one. At the very least you're keeping that crap out of your intake manifold and cylinders. It is cleaning the air and not promoting carbon buildup. This will help your enging run much longer and more efficiently.

Oh, and welcome aboard. Hope to see more of you around. There is someone else on here with a PT Cruiser (chasgood) but he hasn't posted in a while. Feel free to send him a private message and ask him if he can help you with your specific vehicle.

[KenS]

Hey Matt. Those connectors come in two designs. One type is a screw on with a serrated swedged end that allows the hose to be pushed on and the serrated cuts will keep the hose from sliding off. A proper size hose will not come off by itself. The other is a screw on tube style connector that has an enlarged end where a hose can slip on the tube and then a clamp installed to hold the hose on the fitting. The enlarged end gives the clamp an area to squeeze the hose tight on the tube and not allow the clamped area of the hose to slide off the tubed fitting. A trip down to the friendly auto supply can show the differences. Either will work fine. Expect to pay as much as 3 to 4 bucks per fitting requiring two for the project. If anyone wants pics of my install I will gladly add them to this thread. Ken

[chesspirate]

after reading more and more about this catch can i read Matt's wright up and went out and got all the stuff i need, going to set it up next couple of days between PCV valve and intake, but on my V6 on the other side there is another hose that comes out of the valve cover into the other side of the intake, but no valve. I don't understand what the point of the valve is on the one side if the other isn't the same. I'll check my manuals tonight, but untill then, any thoughts?

[Matt Timion]

after reading more and more about this catch can i read Matt's wright up and went out and got all the stuff i need, going to set it up next couple of days between PCV valve and intake, but on my V6 on the other side there is another hose that comes out of the valve cover into the other side of the intake, but no valve. I don't understand what the point of the valve is on the one side if the other isn't the same. I'll check my manuals tonight, but untill then, any thoughts?

My car has another tube coming off of the valve cover going to the air tube BEFORE The throttle body. Some people install their catch can on this tube, others on the PCV tube, and some on both.

[chesspirate]

I guess we'll see how the one works, and if it's good then for under $25 i'd be willing to install another one.

[chesspirate]

Okay, bought the stuff, worried a little bit because the collection 'tank' is plastic, but it seemed pretty heavy duty. Bought the fittings and hose clamps and got so excited I installed it in the parking lot of Starbucks while my Fiance was inside (she happens to work there). Even with a small hiccup it took me just over 5 minutes! Just to review, this is the line that is going from the PCV valve to the intake, not 100% sure what part (it was dark) so, based on everyones comments i didn't expect to see/feel much difference.

I also topped off the oil to almost perfect. I may be crazy but the thing started better and hit it's idle faster, i don't know why but it did, doesn't make sense i know. Anyway, drove around a little bit on the streets and was really worried about it (actually more worried i screwed it up somehow) anyway, hit the freeway and things seemed smoother (placebo???) going home, uphill, felt like it had a tad more torque/held speed better (placebo??) but i got home after a 35 mile drive on the freeway 60-65 mph and parked it. Grabbed a flashlight and popped the hood.

There is stuff in there!!!

Just for reference, i am a nut and happen to have over 291,000 miles on my original engine so some things are to be expected, but i really didn't expect this much this fast, i kinda pride myself on my vehicle being in good operating shape, but y'know what, this rocks! I just installed a safeguard of sorts! For me, this is definately worth it already.

[chesspirate]

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/img_0002 (2)cropped.764.th.jpg (http://images6.theimagehosting.com/img_0002 (2)cropped.764.jpg)my engine!

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_0005 (2)cropped.81c.th.jpg (http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_0005 (2)cropped.81c.jpg) the setup

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_0013 (2)cropped.c7f.th.jpg (http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_0013 (2)cropped.c7f.jpg)
This is what collected after just 35 miles on the freeway!

[SVOboy]

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/img_0002 (2)cropped.764.th.jpg (http://images6.theimagehosting.com/img_0002 (2)cropped.764.jpg)my engine!

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_0005 (2)cropped.81c.th.jpg (http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_0005 (2)cropped.81c.jpg) the setup

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_0013 (2)cropped.c7f.th.jpg (http://images6.theimagehosting.com/IMG_0013 (2)cropped.c7f.jpg)
This is what collected after just 35 miles on the freeway!

.

[chesspirate]

Thanks for trying to clear that up for me, i eventually figured it out. Whadya think?