Exhaust manifold Steam boiler?

[ShadowWorks]

This is off the cuff but hear me out.

My car has a turbocharger so it has a thick, heavy cast steel manifold, it gets ridiculously hot, I am thinking I could weld on a small, slim tank and fill it with water, this water would obviously boil and produce high pressure steam, I would then plumb this into the EGR system so this super heated steam goes into the intake manifold via specific Psi realise valve.


You must be thinking why would I put steam into the intake, I am asking myself that very same thing, well a HHO guy claimed it was the gas or steam from the HHO that turned into super heated steam in the chamber and produced more torque, part steam engine basically:D

That is the basic outline, what do you thing?

[hypermile]

According to this article (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/honda-researchi.html) it looks like honda is looking at this same kind of thing. The trick would be to make it small and effective enough to compensate the extra weight.

[fumesucker]

A Tesla turbine might be the right way to go for a shade tree version of something like the Honda/BMW gadget.. If you could get enough energy to power the AC and accessories such a gadget might be a worthwhile bolt-on mod that some forward looking entrepreneur could make a buck on..

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/dept/Courses/E-24/E-24Projects/Aquila/BladelessTurbine.htm

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/dept/Courses/E-24/E-24Projects/Aquila/turbine1.gif

[ShadowWorks]

A Tesla turbine might be the right way to go for a shade tree version of something like the Honda/BMW gadget..

Didn't some kids make a Tesla Turbine using a hard drive platter?

I believe all those systems would work, if we could convert some of the the 70% or 80% percentage of the heat loss in the exhaust system I would be pleased.

I don't want to use the steam to turn an alternator, I want to pump it back into the engine, a small amount of course but would this help FE?

[fumesucker]

Yep, people have made Tesla turbines from HD platters..

As for steam going into the intake manifold, I put a water injection unit made by either Holley or Edelbrock (I don't recall which) on a 327/350 hp Vette engine once (11.5:1 compression) to help control detonation at full throttle.. This was back sometime in the fairly early 70's..

I suspect that steam into the intake manifold might help efficiency if you were to combine it with a raised compression ratio.. Since you already have a turbo your compression ratio is probably not all that high and raising it would help efficiency, but with today's gas you couldn't do that without some means of suppressing detonation.. Steam might just do the job.

You could use the boost pressure from the turbo to control the water flow to the exhaust manifold/heater.. When there is no boost you wouldn't need the steam and as more boost comes on you get more steam generation pushed into the intake.. Just pressurize your water reservoir with boost pressure when the turbo is making boost..

A check valve would keep from sucking liquid water back into the intake under high vacuum operations..

[1cheap1]

Didn't some one come up with injecting water on the nonexplosive down stroke after purging the gases from the cylinder to create steam to make power? I know that on my twin turbo set up on my GT that i can inject water, methane or nitrous as these cool down the heat to make more power, they work better on cool days that hot. Actually make denser air for more power.

[beatr911]

I think we got off track here at the start. H-H-O when burned, releases heat and results in or combines to form H20. At the temperatures in the burning chamber the H20 would be a pressurized (by the heat generated) gas, steam if you will. That is where the claim from producing more mechanical energy comes from.

So you have the combining of cold gasses H-H and O creating a hot expanding gas of combined H20.

Creating steam before combustion is not necessarily creating additional cylinder pressure. There would be an incremental pressure increase from heating a low temp steam to a higher temp steam, but the energy used to heat the steam would be taken from the other gasses in the combustion chamber. As water vapor probably has a higher specific heat than the other gasses, absorbing more heat energy per volume than the other gasses the overall effect would be a smaller increase in cylinder pressure than without the water vapor.

This is the reason water mist injection is used to lower combustion temperatures preventing ping in high compression or forced induction engines. The water injection alone does not produce more power, it must be used with higher compression or increased forced induction.

The HHO guy is right, but this application isn't for the gain that is expected.

[eugeneg20]

you can directly inject water since your turbo produces enough heat to turn it into steam. BUt its mostly for high compression as already stated.

[beatr911]

Yeah, and if you really, really wanted to tinker, experiment with injecting the gas right before the turbo to use it to help atomize the mixture, a la Smokey Yunick. Here, an intercooler is not your friend, it would condense and precipitate the fuel out of the fuel/air mix.

But that's a whole 'nother thread.

[ShadowWorks]

How do we actually calculate the amount of heat available from the exhaust side?

Lets say we have a 200Hp engine, does this mean we have just wasted 800Hp as heat from the exhaust heat?

How hard can it be to convert that heat back into something kinetic usable?

[91CavGT]

How hard can it be to convert that heat back into something kinetic usable?


Honda and BMW have already created devices that take advantage of the waste heat that goes out the exhaust on an ICE. The both report around a 15% increase in effeciency.


Basically, they tank water and use the heat in the exhaust to turn it into steam. The steam then powers a turbine of sorts which puts the power back to the drivetrain (think Rankin cycle).

[ShadowWorks]

Oh my Goodness, somebody has already patented this idea, a Mr Megenbier, Karl Heinz. I got this from patents on line, he lives in the UK so maybe I could track him down and ask him for some help?

DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS

Fig. 1 shows a water vapouriser of the invention applied to an engine. A water tank 10 is connected via a float chamber 9 and tubing 8 to a steam generator (boiler) 7 applied to the engine's exhaust. A steam tube 1 travels from the boiler 7 to a steam reservoir (condenser) 2, from which a steam tube 3 travels to the engine's air intake 4.

The water vapouriser has only two moving parts; a float and a needle valve.

The generator 7 produces steam which is fed through the link pipe 1 into the steam reservoir 2. The steam is then fed into the venturi of the carburettor in the case of a petrol engine, or into the intake manifold in the case of a diesel engine.

As shown in Fig.s 2 to 4, the steam reservior 2 comprises a cylindrical housing 107 having an air intake window 108 in its side wall. An air inlet pipe 105 passes axially through the housing 107, one end of the pipe 105 being provided with a filter 111 and the opposite end being provided with a plastics cap 104. A steam inlet pipe 101 passes through the window 108 and is held opposite an opening 120 in the side of the air inlet pipe 105 by straps 121 and 122 leaving a gap 103 between the end of the steam inlet pipe 101 and the opening 120. An outlet pipe 102 is secured to the air inlet pipe 105 directly opposite the opening 120, and passes out of the housing 107. The housing is provided with an external bracket 106.

The steam is fed through the condenser 2 so that the steam produced is wet. This is one of the key factors to the success of the water vapouriser. The condenser 2 also acts as a steam reservoir, thus ensuring a constant supply for sudden acceleration. Any steam produced is collected in the air stream and fed directly into the carburettor, eliminating the need for steam pressure. By feeding the steam directly into the venturi (or intake manifold) an even mixture of steam with the air and petrol vapour is ensured.

The device is self-metering in that it is controlled by the heat from the exhaust as well as being connected to the intake 4 of the carburettor. When the throttle is opened the pressure acting on the surface of the water inside the generator 7 is reduced, thus enabling steam to be produced at a lower temperature. The level of water in the generator 7 is controlled at a constant level by the float chamber 9.

When the mixture arrives in the cylinder of the engine it acts to slow or control the burn, thus enabling the use of a lower grade fuel. Immediately the engine fires the wet steam converts to dry steam, and in so doing increases in volume. When the cylinder temperature reaches 1,000 degrees Celsius, the dry steam converts back to hydrogen and oxygen, which are two combustible gases. This gives a second, or continued burn which, in response, burns the hydrocarbons, thus eliminating smoke from the exhaust, and so helping to eliminate pollution from the environment. This burning of the hydrocarbons gives "new engine" performance, extra power and less wear, particularly to valves etc.

One important safety feature in the system is that wet steam cannot be fed into a cold engine. Steam cannot be produced until the engine is hot. Laboratory tests for possible water contamination of the oil after a normal 6,000 mile oil change have concluded: "There is no effect of the steam generating system on the condition of the oil".

The device is useful in both petrol and diesel engines as NO x is controlled in both.

The water vapouriser can save up to twenty percent on fuel bills - petrol and diesel. Other advantages may be summarised as:

Less pollution
Increased power output
Smoother running
A cleaner engine
No exhaust smoke
Lower octane petrol.

Here is the link http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0461152.html

Its seems like it is a good idea, if I only had more money and time, I could patch something like this on my car, 20% FE increase with more power would be oh so nice.

[maxc]

As I recall water turns too hho @3600F @600 psi? The rule of thum is if you have a 10 to 1 compression ratio engine the peak cyl pressure is 1000 psi but for only a short time. Some high performance engine's have a peak flame temp of 4900F. With 15 to 1 the pressure would be 1500psi peak. But the NACA paper "426 papers" say more humid less power. google it.

[maxc]

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11432

[RoadWarrior]

I don't think there would be much advantage to a brief formation of HHO inside the chamber, this would be because it would be endothermic and suck heat out of the chamber to form it, then burn to re-release it. Unless it solved a combustion timing problem, there wouldn't be extra energy there to do anything.

[RoadWarrior]

Oh BTW that Tesla turbine page has the inlet and outlet switched.

[maxc]

What Tesla page?

[RoadWarrior]

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/dept/Courses/E-24/E-24Projects/Aquila/BladelessTurbine.htm


That one.

[maxc]

That one.LOL LOL LOL LOL

[ShadowWorks]

I don't think there would be much advantage to a brief formation of HHO inside the chamber, this would be because it would be endothermic and suck heat out of the chamber to form it, then burn to re-release it.

The patent states the hydrogen and oxygen are made when the wet steam turns into dry steam at 1000 degrees and this helps to control burn and complete it, no Nox, cleaner engine, more power, I downloaded the patent and it has some images of the boiler, its a very simple idea and the inventor has 31 patents around evaporators and other steam systems, very clever chap, they would not give him the patent unless he could prove it worked, so it must have done everything he claimed or they would not give him the patent on it.

Its not clear to me how small the boiler can be as its feed water from a tank and it has some kind of steam condenser which helps make the steam wet, which is vital for the system to work apparently, this also gives wet steam on demand, I need to rig up a prototype.

[flapdoodle]

I have an engineering handbook written in 1892 that details almost every aspect of a steam locomotive. I found it interesting that they had experimented with injecting steam into the firebox to generate hydrogen and oxygen. They decided that there was no advantage because the amount of energy to make the H2 was the same as the energy it produced when it was burned to form water again.

[ShadowWorks]

I have an engineering handbook written in 1892 that details almost every aspect of a steam locomotive. I found it interesting that they had experimented with injecting steam into the firebox to generate hydrogen and oxygen.

That would cool the furnace and reduce the pressure on the piston directly, unless they used more coal no?

They decided that there was no advantage because the amount of energy to make the H2 was the same as the energy it produced when it was burned to form water again.

By the time the Hydrgen and Oxygen are made or split the piston stroke is finished, it would need to push this into another piston and ignite it under pressure or spark, those steam engines where very low rpm machines with much larger diameter pistons. Those steam engines had multiple expansion chambers, so the steam was used 3 or 4 times in different size chambers so it could have been done, 1892 was a long time ago.

Look at these guys making a steam car or steam engine for a car, they claimed the California CHP has a few of them that can do 140mph!

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/steamart.htm

These article has an interesting take on the whole steam powered car

http://www.stanleysteamers.com/modern_steam.htm

It seems that Steam power has to make a come back if we want FE not just in our cars.

[ShadowWorks]

You have some very good questions here, this is my understanding so far.



Creating steam before combustion is not necessarily creating additional cylinder pressure.

of course this is not the claim, the claim is the wet steam splits at 1000 degrees into Hydrogen and oxygen, so lets say this reaction occurs at 20 after TDC, this means we have two more pure explosives gases in the pistons working range. no?

the energy used to heat the steam would be taken from the other gasses in the combustion chamber.

Yes, but we know there is more heat in the cylinder than the piston can use, there is heat and pressure, one is not the same as the other, the piston converts as much pressure as it can but it does very little with the heat, ergo the larger water cooling system that is giving up many Kilowatts of heat not including the Kilowatt energy lost directly into the engine head and block and oil as well and ultimately the exhaust.

overall effect would be a smaller increase in cylinder pressure than without the water vapor.

Well water vapour and steam are kind of different and kind of the same but water as steam has much more energy in it, evaporation has larger cooling affect over steam.


The water injection alone does not produce more power, it must be used with higher compression or increased forced induction.

I do have a turbo charged engine but I believe this could work on any engine, the reason being we are operating on the assumption that we are using steam at 100 degrees Celsius, but it does not have to be the case, It can be stepped up to 500 degrees Fahrenheit just by a second steam boiler, superheated steam is a very different beast from regular steam but it seems normal steam will work.

I am no steam expert on steam or this system , I am just learning right now, I am surprised Honda is making 30 to 43Hp using this system and with only 13% efficiency, this means 26% would recover 60 to 86hp, 50% would mean 120hp to 170hp extra, they need to talk to steam engineers! ASAP

I have a wall paper stripper and I am tempted to plumb it into my intake manifold just to see what happens at idle, hopefully no boom!

[RoadWarrior]

Actually if you use steam that's barely dry at 100C ish then superheat it in the combustion chamber it's SHC goes up and you get a mild efficiency gain from that, plus you reduce pumping loss at low throttle opening.

BTW I think they did a better steam injection thing in 1920s or 30s era locomotives, seem to remember hearing about using steam for forced draught, basically using the kinetic energy of the steam to pull air through the firebox or something like that.