Methanol + E10 + SEFI/MPFI = mpg gain?

[RoadWarrior]

EDIT: Methanol by itself doesn't seem to do it, read later posts, seems to be some effect in combo with TC-W3 outboard oil in *small* quantities.

Hi folks,

Starting another thread on this because 1st thread title was less than obvious, and may or may not be what is happening. Original thread here...
http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=7961

So here's the short version. I theorised that methanol may promote dehydrogenisation of ethanol in contact with catalytic metals and metal oxides in amounts equal or greater to 5% of the proportion of ethanol in the fuel. Which is 6.5oz per 10 Gallons for E10.

So I put 16.9oz, 500ml of "Methyl Hydrate" fondue fuel methanol in my last tank (15 gallons) and got an apparent gain of 6% higher than my previous best tank, 15% gain over average and 10%ish over highest other additive free tank. See gas log of 27/06/08. Gas in Ontario is meant to have a mandated 5% ethanol now, but that can be credit traded between companies, so actual percentage of ethanol in this test tank is unclear. I'm suspecting about 5%. I'm looking forward to trying a true E10, and I'm positively salivating at the prospect of E85 eventually becoming available locally.

So maybe in multipoint and sequential fuel injection systems, the catalytic activity of the metals in the intake port, where at low load, fuel sits and evaporates because it is sprayed before valve opening, when the ports are hot, is promoted sufficiently by addition of methanol to an ethanol containing fuel to make small quantities of hydrogen and an acetone like ketone. Or maybe it doesn't, but my mpg seems to have got a boost.

In theory this works when several conditions are met.
i) Low load, highway cruise etc. At higher loads injectors are spraying through an open valve, meaning very little ethanol wlll contact a surface that might catalyse anything
ii) SEFI or MPFI, fuel needs to sit in a hot intake port for this to begin to happen, this does not occur to a great enough extend on TBI or carbed cars.
iii) Ethanol in the fuel.
iv) Long enough trips to get the engine nice and hot, I hear engine note change at about 1/3 sweep of my temp gauge where hot weather running temp is around half sweep. Since I typically see about a quarter sweep in winter, then effects may fall off in cold weather unless steps are taken to keep heat in the engine (grille block etc)

It may be incompatible with...
i) acetone. Since acetone like ketones are produced and acetone ratios supposedly critical, it may not give any gain when used with acetone, But acetone is reported to give no gain in E10 anyway, so this shouldn't really be much of an issue.
ii) HHO, since a good HHO system, may be putting more H2 in the motor than this will, and gain of that might be hitting mechanical limits of engine, further gain with the amounts this produces may be unnoticable. With a 2 bolts in a jar or weak system you might see a gain still. Also dehydrogenation activity at the temperatures typical in an intake port is inhibited by prescence of water. At temperatures of 200 or 300 centigrade the steam will help, but a "wet" HHO system will likely not see gains from this. Also if the system is spitting or misting Lye/NaOH, baking soda or pottassium hydroxide into the intake, this may strip the protective oxides off aluminum alloys and allow methanol to attack them. So if your HHO is doubling your milage or better, expect nothing from this.
iii) Top end lubes, 2 stroke oil, torco etc... I suspect that these are particularly likely to coat your intake ports with a film that will prevent any ethanol/metal dehydrogenisation activity taking place.

Safety....

Methanol is a poison, be particular careful not to breathe the fumes, spill any on skin etc. Ethanol competitively inhibits methanol absorption in the body, so if you do accidentally soak yourself in it, wash it off and have a beer.

In engines, methanol is said to be harmless up to concentrations of 20oz per 10 gallons, per the makers of HEET methanol based gas line antifreeze.

Getting it...

Methanol is available as HEET gas line antifreeze which is 99% pure, also as "Methyl Hydrate" fondue or chafing stove fuel at many grocery stores, general merchandise stores, and dollar stores, it is dyed blue. In hardware and paint stores it's in the thinners section "Methyl Hydrate" for thinning shellac. These latter two are supposedly 99% pure according to biodiesel folks who use it for transesterification. Racing methanol is reportedly only 92% pure, windshield wash which some folks spray into their intakes is generally between 40% and 60% pure. Don't use either of these for this purpose as we are suspecting that water hinders the reaction.

Q: How come nobody noticed this before?
A: Maybe because winter FE, when methanol antifreezes are used, the gas mileage is in the pan anyway, and if you've got water contamination to cure the water inhibits it, and engines don't get hot enough in winter. If it's used in summer, again it's for likely water contamination.

Testing....

Dynoing this very likely won't show anything. This is because dyno runs are done at WOT. Short trips may not show anything, needs to be hot. Excessive EOCing may not show anything, needs to be hot. Fuel rate flow meters and injector duty cycle monitors should show drop in fuel usage at steady speed.

So, I'd prefer that this thread is reserved for testing, results and observations
of it's practical application and that the other thread linked at the top is used for theorising about how it might be working and the dehydrogenation process and technical discussion. Please post results here, and note what type of methanol was used, in what type of gas, and whether your motor has an iron head or an alloy head.

regards,

Road Warrior

[SD26]

I bought one gallon earlier today. I have a 600 mile trip scheduled for tomorrow. Weather should be warm from Wisconsin to Topeka, Kansas. I'll be giving it a whirl. E10 is usually pretty easy to get in the form of 89 octane fuel in Iowa, Missouri, and Kansas that is government subsidized.

I'm not a fan of ethanol fuels, personally. In the area of SE Wisconsin, it's mandated by the EPA. But, I find the whole project interesting, so, here we go.

[hypermile]

it would be interesting to see if a car could use a computer to make the vehicle run off of different fuels (as opposed to simply mixed) depending on conditions so that energy is used most efficiently...

[RoadWarrior]

First trips on 2nd tank observations...

With slightly cooler weather, it's taking longer for the effect to kick in, seem to get it hot enough on the first 1/4 of the trip when it's above 20C, but this morning, in air temps of 18C I'd gone halfway before I heard engine note change, around 1/3 scale on my temp gauge again. I also took some slower roads and observed that below about 85kph and 60kph, I'm getting too much draft through the radiator in sub 20C temps relative to the heat the motor is making, such that it hovers below 1/3 scale, in city driving and full speed highway it will keep up though.

The effect also seems to be keeping engine temperatures a little lower, on the hot afternoon run I had I was noticing that while I got to about half gauge, I didn't hit the fan, at similar temperatures in previous weeks I was a little worried about the age and reduced performance of my cooling system, because long highway trips at 25C+ had the fan appearing to come on every so often and as soon as I got off the highway it would be running nearly full time. It appears that peak engine temperature has been reduced by adding methanol.

So I'm kind of considering a partial grill restriction now, want to get temperature higher quicker and stop so much cooling between about 60kph and 85kph.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Now that I've been thinking I remember in the 70's seeing some stations advertise "Gasohol". What was the ratio of gasoline/alcohol in that? It must not have been to extreme as it would have had to run on engines without the benefit of fuel injection.

-Jay

[joeventura]

What do these acronymns stand for please:
SEFI
MPFI
TBI
EOC (EOCing)

[Jay2TheRescue]

What do these acronymns stand for please:
SEFI
MPFI
TBI
EOC (EOCing)

The first three are various forms of fuel injection. The fourth is Engine Off Coasting. Its where one shifts into Neurtral and coasts with the engine off.

[joeventura]

The first three are various forms of fuel injection. The fourth is Engine Off Coasting. Its where one shifts into Neurtral and coasts with the engine off.

Thank you!!

[RoadWarrior]

MPFI, Multi Point Fuel Injection, usually one injector per cylinder.
SEFI, sequential electronic fuel injection, to denote MPFI with timed sequential independant fuel pulses, rather than batch or bank operation as some MPFI systems do.
TBI, throttle body injection, one big injector near the throttle plate.

[RoadWarrior]

Bugger! That last tank went to hell. Pretty damn sure I got an overfill, due to being unable to get my choice of pump, and ending up on one that was significantly more "nose down". Wasn't gonna wait because I passed 2 other stations that had their prices 20c a gallon higher, and didn't wanna see the price go up while I was waiting around. Tank is 15G, and I had only just gone a little under the quarter and hadn't flashed the "low fuel" light on. Which when it comes full on, there's enough gas to do 40-50 miles without running it dry, so I would have guessed 3 gallons in there still. Previous fills that were around 14G, I've had the needle half that distance to E. Don't think it got short filled for previous tank though because the "Getting off F" and "first quarter" checkpoints seemed good to me. Also got stuck in creepy crawly traffic for an hour yesterday afternoon, last tank that happened to got a 20.9 and saw the kind of winds today that only got me a 21.9 on another tank. My guesstimate is sans the overfill (extra gallon) and loss in holdup (another gallon) I WOULD have got 25mpg, which would seem reasonable with wind troubles and knowing that approx 1/3-1/2 of the driving wasn't quite hot enough to kick the effect in. Anyway, hoping for better luck and smoother driving on THIS tank...

[ZugyNA]

Ah...the trials and tribulations of mpg testing. All too familiar. I just try avoiding *****ing at the pump and getting too upset...they probably have laws against that you know.

You win some...some you lose...not your additive...the stupid pumps.

[RoadWarrior]

First run this morning felt good. I dosed it a little higher again, 12 oz in. I'm not totally sure but effect didn't seem quite as strong last tank when it was coming in, that had 8oz plus what was left from the original 16.9 oz. Still don't know what percentage the ethanol is in this gas. Anyway, seems more than 5% works a bit better, maybe due to some inhibition by the gasoline itself or corrosion inhibitors, detergents etc in it. I think I'm gonna settle at an ounce a gallon for this gas.

Anyway got 50 miles on it this morning and the gas gauge needle is still "pegged", normally it would at least be floating over the F mark by now, so there was more in there than normal. Got hot enough fairly rapidly, quite a difference between sub 20C air temps and just over 20C for that... I'm looking for a 205* thermostat, not sure what's in there.

[Jay2TheRescue]

First run this morning felt good. I dosed it a little higher again, 12 oz in. I'm not totally sure but effect didn't seem quite as strong last tank when it was coming in, that had 8oz plus what was left from the original 16.9 oz. Still don't know what percentage the ethanol is in this gas. Anyway, seems more than 5% works a bit better, maybe due to some inhibition by the gasoline itself or corrosion inhibitors, detergents etc in it. I think I'm gonna settle at an ounce a gallon for this gas.

Anyway got 50 miles on it this morning and the gas gauge needle is still "pegged", normally it would at least be floating over the F mark by now, so there was more in there than normal. Got hot enough fairly rapidly, quite a difference between sub 20C air temps and just over 20C for that... I'm looking for a 205* thermostat, not sure what's in there.
These initial results sound intruguing... I'm tempted to go down to the hardware store today and get some methanol and try it in the beast. The bulk of my driving is in urban traffic, I'd be curious to see if it would make any difference for me.

-Jay

[RoadWarrior]

I am not too clear on how The Beast's injection system is set up. Sounds like a central injector with valves to each runner... now if they are aimed right into the port, they might be be timed to be squirting fuel into a closed port, but if they've got a bit of runner between them and the head, then I'd suspect they only flow when the valve is open. You might get 5% on the methanol's own benefits, but if it's not wetting the ports at low demand, then I don't think it's gonna do much more for you.

[Jay2TheRescue]

I am not too clear on how The Beast's injection system is set up. Sounds like a central injector with valves to each runner... now if they are aimed right into the port, they might be be timed to be squirting fuel into a closed port, but if they've got a bit of runner between them and the head, then I'd suspect they only flow when the valve is open. You might get 5% on the methanol's own benefits, but if it's not wetting the ports at low demand, then I don't think it's gonna do much more for you.
The Beast has TBI if that makes any difference.

-Jay

[RoadWarrior]

Yeah, it's TBI with per cylinder distribution (according to the stuff I read) which is what makes it wierd. Regular TBIs wouldn't see much from this if it's doing what I think it is, it's relying on having a brief period of having ethanol to hot metal(s) contact before the fuel enters the cylinder.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Yeah, it's TBI with per cylinder distribution (according to the stuff I read) which is what makes it wierd. Regular TBIs wouldn't see much from this if it's doing what I think it is, it's relying on having a brief period of having ethanol to hot metal(s) contact before the fuel enters the cylinder.
Maybe I'll start off small. I'll buy 20oz of HEET and add it to my next tank of 87 octane E10, and see what happens.

-Jay

[RoadWarrior]

Yeah who knows, might get some effect off combustion chamber metals before combustion, or where it hits the intake valve.

[RoadWarrior]

Something has gone wrong, it seems to have gone rich, having to fight for mpg this tank. Something happened when I was sitting in that traffic jam last tuesday, engine suddenly began to run cooler. I'm thinking it faulted something and richened up. :(

I can't see it being an injector getting something stuck in it, since it's a V6 any small imbalance should be detectable with some roughness. I don't feel any at idle or at a few thousand RPM. If anything it's quieter and smoother than normal at the moment, but has "too much" power for the heat we've been having. I'm thinking it faulted the IAT or CTS or something. Will have to do a key dance and count flashes.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Something has gone wrong, it seems to have gone rich, having to fight for mpg this tank. Something happened when I was sitting in that traffic jam last tuesday, engine suddenly began to run cooler. I'm thinking it faulted something and richened up. :(

I can't see it being an injector getting something stuck in it, since it's a V6 any small imbalance should be detectable with some roughness. I don't feel any at idle or at a few thousand RPM. If anything it's quieter and smoother than normal at the moment, but has "too much" power for the heat we've been having. I'm thinking it faulted the IAT or CTS or something. Will have to do a key dance and count flashes.


I remember doing that on our old Chryslers. That would be the first thing I would check whenever mom would complain about the car.

May all your codes be 55...

-Jay

[Jay2TheRescue]

Ok, I purchased fuel this evening. A local store had 12 oz bottles of methanol fuel antifreeze for $0.80 each. I added 24 ounces of methanol to the tank and filled it with Shell 87 octane E10 to the beast. We shall see how this goes...

-Jay

[8307c4]

I am sorry, disregard, this is the experimental section I did not realize this.

[Ford Man]

Now that I've been thinking I remember in the 70's seeing some stations advertise "Gasohol". What was the ratio of gasoline/alcohol in that? It must not have been to extreme as it would have had to run on engines without the benefit of fuel injection.

-Jay

It was the same thing you find now 90% gas 10% alcohol.

[COMP]

It was the same thing you find now 90% gas 10% alcohol.

i agree,,,,wish they had to have it marked on the pumps here

[Jay2TheRescue]

It was the same thing you find now 90% gas 10% alcohol.
Ok, I used to buy that stuff in the 80's as well then. In the 80's there was a sticker on the pump that said something like "ETHANOL ENRICHED The fuel pumped from this dispenser may contain up to 10% ethanol" I guess the name Gasohol never caught on, and Ethanol Enriched sounded better.

Thanks,
Jay

[RoadWarrior]

No codes, 55. Gonna hafta check how the O2 is switching.

[Jay2TheRescue]

No codes, 55. Gonna hafta check how the O2 is switching.
Glad you got a 55, that means its probably nothing major... yet.

-Jay

[RoadWarrior]

Though I'm wondering if it catalysed off the carbon buildup in the intakes, but was cleaning it up at the same time, or whether it pickled any active surfaces. or whether there was a copper compound in the blue dye in the "Fondue Fuel" that helped catalyse it but isn't in the hardware store stuff... or whether the fuel trim has changed.... maybe even got a different gas blend...

Something seems wrong though, I got about 30 miles more before the needle came off full indicating a higher fill than normal, but since then I've been fighting hard for mpg and it's looking like I'm only gonna pull a 23... gotta fill later today. Think prices are sliding a little, keeping an eye on them...

[Jay2TheRescue]

Though I'm wondering if it catalysed off the carbon buildup in the intakes, but was cleaning it up at the same time, or whether it pickled any active surfaces. or whether there was a copper compound in the blue dye in the "Fondue Fuel" that helped catalyse it but isn't in the hardware store stuff... or whether the fuel trim has changed.... maybe even got a different gas blend...

Something seems wrong though, I got about 30 miles more before the needle came off full indicating a higher fill than normal, but since then I've been fighting hard for mpg and it's looking like I'm only gonna pull a 23... gotta fill later today. Think prices are sliding a little, keeping an eye on them...
Well, I've only logged 2 miles since I've filled up last night, needle is still on Full... ;) I may try fondue fuel next. I initially avoided it because I thought the dye was not needed and therefore should be avoided if possible. Another thing to note, the fuel line antifreeze I bought... 12 ounces for $0.80 doesn't sound bad, but that's over $8/gal. I'll see how this tank progresses over the next week or so.

-Jay

[dkjones96]

Just a clarification. Sequential injection doesn't mean that the injector only fires when the valve is open. Manufacturers usually put injectors in so that at the redline and WOT the injectors are at a 75-80% duty cycle. Meaning that the injector is opening and spraying fuel for 80% of the combustion cycle.

In order to have an injector fire only when the valve is open they typically have to be about 4 times the size of standard injectors. On the freeway most 4 cylinder cars run around 33-50% throttle so the injectors are running between 50-60% duty. Which means that half of the time that injector is firing it's against a closed valve.

[RoadWarrior]

That duty cycle sounds a touch high for freeway cruise. I'd have said 20%, since many 4 bangers will do over 30mpg (Less than 13lb/hr) on 4x14lb/hr injectors, which I think are rated at 80% usually. Intake duration is prolly somewhere around 250-300 degrees out of 720. So they have to go over about 40%ish before they're spraying into an open valve because the valve duration is 35-40% max of the cycle, so to leave enough time for 80% WOT at full duty cycle they'd have to start approx 300 degrees before valve opening.

Though.... in batch fire arrangements they may be under 40% but triggered twice at 20% a time, but due to spacing between the firings the second firing may overlap the valve opening.

[RoadWarrior]

Anyway... Marvin has had me scratching my head today, couldn't find anything "wrong" but the MPG has dived, 22.8 this tank :( He starts real hard and spits out a high cloud of white/gray smoke very gassy smelling so I'm positive he's running rich for some stupid reason....

However.... since it's the methanol I'm messing with, and since I think I got a GREAT tank on it initially I'm still messing/persevering with it.

Latest theory..... looking at my gaslog it occured to me that I might have had some TC-W3 lurking around in the fuel system when I tried that initial dose. Rather minor amounts... but .... so I'm looking up exactly the kind of crap TC-W3 oils have in them and there's a plethora, a panoply, nay a profusion of different additives they put in them. So I go hunting wabbits*cough* I mean catalysts... well it's like nailing jello to a tree there, since TC-W3 oils can have bajillions of different compounds in there. Prime suspects are molybdenum, boron and zinc, though in relatively minute quantities for everything, but catalysts just get the ball rolling sometimes, especially when they're in solution, you don't need much of them.. I was using OMC Evinrude TC-W3 outboard oil, of uncertain vintage, I got a couple of bottles for 50c each at a yard sale some while back. OMC particularly, seems to have lots of moly and PIB in.

Well it didn't do anything much with the isopropyl in there... or when it went in with the acetone... but I thought what the hell, maybe my theory about it coating the potential catalytic surfaces is wrong if it is the damn catalyst. So this time I stuck an ounce of that, it had possibly a quarter ounce left in the whole tank the first run of methanol, so if it worked with that an ounce is plenty, in the tank with 16oz of methanol the same as the initial dose....

well, first run this afternoon on the fresh tank.... I'm liking it again, it's not feeling "fruity rich" and I've got that odd faint "pibblepobble" sound I was getting at certain RPM on the first tank. Also got the slight buzzy tone back, which I think is good. It sounds leaner again too...

Dammit OMC what do you put in your TC-W3???????

[Jay2TheRescue]

I'm wondering if this wasn't such a great idea, for city driving at least. I know its only been 3 days, and I've only gone 17 miles since my fillup, but the needle is already pulling off of full. I haven't used the a/c at all on this tank. Maybe I had a short fill. I guess I'll have to run this tank out and see. My ScanGauge should be here soon, I'll be able to tell more of what's going on once I get that installed.

-Jay

[RoadWarrior]

Yup sorry Jay, I think methanol on it's own isn't doing it, it's something in combo with that TC-W3 2 stroke outboard oil, which didn't do much on it's own.

This tank with the 1oz of TC-W3 and 16oz methanol is looking GREAT so far, if I trusted my gas gauge I'd say it was on track for bettering that first run of methanol, but it might be anywhere from 25 to 30 on the high end.

[SD26]

I might have to agree that the menthanol has some affect on a trip...more constant throttle stuff. Seems like more in town stuff I did, mileage was normal.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Yup sorry Jay, I think methanol on it's own isn't doing it, it's something in combo with that TC-W3 2 stroke outboard oil, which didn't do much on it's own.

This tank with the 1oz of TC-W3 and 16oz methanol is looking GREAT so far, if I trusted my gas gauge I'd say it was on track for bettering that first run of methanol, but it might be anywhere from 25 to 30 on the high end.
That's ok. We're here to experiment and learn. I mostly do short trip city driving anyway so I wasn't expecting much. I do notice that my oil pressure seems to run about 5 PSI higher. I haven't noticed any temp differences. Its nice to compare what something does in different vehicles, and it only cost me $1.60. Two cycle engine oil... I've never heard of the type you're referring to. Is it something I can pick up at Wal-Mart or an auto parts store, or do I have to go someplace special? Do you think there are any long term effects of running 2 cycle oil like fowling of plugs, O2 sensor, Cat converter?

-Jay

[RoadWarrior]

Outboard oil in particular is supposed to be ashless and cat safe, it's high quality stuff for those big expensive outboards. Lawnmower etc 2 stroke oil is only "low ash" and is formulated "messier" for these low quality small motors.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Well, the results are in (somewhat). I know I did a short fill, but I wanted to get a jump on getting my new ScanGauge calibrated. The tank was 100% city driving with no A/C usage and my mileage was just over 10 MPG. Quite possibly the worst mileage I have ever done in the Beast. I may explore the possibility of mixing methanol with the outboard oil later, or on a highway run. In city driving it actually makes my mileage drop signifigantly.

-Jay

[RoadWarrior]

Whew, got it headed the right way again at least...
24.7mpg... yeah I was shooting for 27 again this tank... but on my LAST trip on the tank, I got stuck in a 1 hour holdup where they closed the highway down to one lane on a friday afternoon. Freaking ridiculous time to mess around with that. I swear I burned a gallon or more in that stupidity... I was over the quarter mark at the start of the trip straight 25 mile burn and return. Enough over the quarter I thought, to get back with it dead on or only slightly under, for around a 12.75-13G fill, but no-oooooooo... ended up with it at about an 1/8th.

Anyway, I guess it's good enough to show that at least methanol+ the outboard oil is not dinging mileage, whereas the methanol on it's own really seemed to.

So the methanol by itself seems to make the O2 read lean I suspect, meaning the ECU hoses in the fuel more... Still figuring that one out....

[Jay2TheRescue]

Whew, got it headed the right way again at least...
24.7mpg... yeah I was shooting for 27 again this tank... but on my LAST trip on the tank, I got stuck in a 1 hour holdup where they closed the highway down to one lane on a friday afternoon. Freaking ridiculous time to mess around with that. I swear I burned a gallon or more in that stupidity... I was over the quarter mark at the start of the trip straight 25 mile burn and return. Enough over the quarter I thought, to get back with it dead on or only slightly under, for around a 12.75-13G fill, but no-oooooooo... ended up with it at about an 1/8th.

Anyway, I guess it's good enough to show that at least methanol+ the outboard oil is not dinging mileage, whereas the methanol on it's own really seemed to.

So the methanol by itself seems to make the O2 read lean I suspect, meaning the ECU hoses in the fuel more... Still figuring that one out....
Since you're back up there, it looks like the oil + Methanol works for highway driving. I'd be curious if it works in city driving as well, since that's the bulk of my driving.

-Jay

[RoadWarrior]

Well city driving that's driving doesn't seem to ding my mpg all that much, city driving that's idling or creeping seems to suck it down, but always has.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Well city driving that's driving doesn't seem to ding my mpg all that much, city driving that's idling or creeping seems to suck it down, but always has.
Unfortunately, I think what dings me the most is my daily trip to the bank. I can make a right from the main road traveling east into the plaza where the bank is, but you can't make a left back out from there to go west. To return I have to drive through the parking lot to the side street, where I usually have to wait 3 or 4 minutes for the light to change to make a left. Then once I go left I go 100 yards, and then stop again to wait several minutes again to go left onto the main road. The lights are timed to funnel traffic off of the main road as quickly as possible, so the light on the sidestreet does not turn green until the light at the main road turns red. This means when I get to the light at the main road, it has just turned red, and I gotta sit and wait an entire cycle.

[RoadWarrior]

Well, a 25mpg less a hair tank again... suspicious of that pump though... I like #2 and it was OOS so had to use #3. Same pump as that obscenely low tank a couple back. Feeling good about this combo here, due to knowing I didn't catch much draft this tank, (Dunno why, the trucks were just always where I wasn't) and had some rainy weather with lots of electrics running.

Figure I'm always gonna have issues on the road, so never gonna get the "perfect" tank that stands clear of the others again, but it breaks down like this...
Methanol + TC-W3 average, 3 best = 25.43mpg
Acetone avg, 3 best. = 23.64 mpg
Isopropyl avg, 3 best. = 24.33 mpg
Unassisted avg, 3 best. = 23.6 mpg

So acetone did barely anything over best other avg, Isopropyl did maybe 3% better than unassisted, whereas methanol and TC-W3 seems to have done about 8% better. That's about $6 a tank saving at current local prices for ~$1.50 a dose.

So, I'm considering myself "sold" on that for now and messing with some other stuff, aero etc.

[almightybmw]

Interesting. I may try the Methanol + TC-W3 for my upcoming long distance trip. Just need to source those two.

[RoadWarrior]

Most hardware stores have methyl hydrate in the thinners aisle as shellac thinner. Saw it in the grocery store yesterday in amongst the cleaners and non-food stuff, might have bought it there but there was no price on the shelf, didn't wanna get it to the cash and find out they wanted $19.99 or something stupid. Auto stores usually have outboard oil, I don't know what exactly in it is doing the business, stick to outboard oil rather than any other 2 stroke oil though because it's supposed to be ashless and cat and O2 friendly. Also they test the lubricity in outboard oils down to really low concentrations, ergo, if it is doing anything as a top end lube, in the concentration we're using it, then outboard oil will more likely work than any other 2 stroke oil because it's higher spec. TC-W4 outboard oil might also be an option, that would be a higher spec than TC-W3.

I cut TC-W3 concentration down a tad this tank, I put about half an ounce in, I'm mildly concerned that it will build up in the fuel system, and that large quantities will be baaaad mmmkay. Initial observation is that motor sounds leaner and more highly "tuned" much like one of my old 4 bangers did back in the day every time I did it's plugs, lash adjustment and re-tweaked the carb. It apparently takes mere traces of it to work, considering I used 2oz a tank previous to the first run of methanol.

[RoadWarrior]

Hokay, got a "not bad" but not great tank, 24, had a lot of city, got the right pump this time. Upped TC-w3 to 3/4 ounce. Half ounce didn't seem to be enough.

Added 4 oz IsoPropyl Alcohol in addition to 16oz methanol and the 3/4 oz TC-W3. The reason for this is that I get hard start issues in hot weather which seem to go away with IPA... so I'm trying it in addition, hoping it at least doesn't mess with da methanol mojo.

Initial highway trip on that was interesting..... engine went very smooth and quiet. Hard warm start seems to be gone at least so that bit still works. Subjectively doesn't seem to have as much grunt for hills down low, but not sure if that's because it's quieter now.

[severach]

but on my LAST trip on the tank, I got stuck in a 1 hour holdup where they closed the highway down to one lane on a friday afternoon. Freaking ridiculous time to mess around with that. I swear I burned a gallon or more in that stupidity...
With a SG you just take note of the start and end gallons and subtract that out.

[RoadWarrior]

Yes a scangauge would be nice, ain't never gonna work on an '88 though.

So I was kinda pleasantly surprised by this tank, had some colder mornings, drove in some nasty weather, with creepy crawly though floodwaters, was late a couple of times and drove 5-10mph faster (I know, barely helps, but your foot just kinda gets heavy) I thought I was headed for a 22-23, but got a 24.8.

So guess the 4oz of IPA didn't hurt the mix that I can see, may even have helped it but obviously can't really say off those figures. It damn sure helps my starting so it will stay in the blend now. So the buttdyno and thumb computer, figure I was 3 mpg over what I "should have" seen pessimistically, and say that with "perfect weather, perfect driving, perfect traffic" I could possibly hit a 28 on this mix. That's just sensible speed highway driving with "safety drafting" as I get the opportunity, not EOC P+G stuff.

Actually it's been below the "feeling it working"* temperature most of the week and I only "felt" it this afternoon with 28C ambients.

(*VTEC just kicked in yo ;) )

[RoadWarrior]

Well that was into the 25s last tank, with weekend city driving thrown in, no other mods yet, just found out my evap purge solenoid might have been acting up, maybe some messing with that will show a small improvement. Again got virtually no draft on that tank.

Been luckier the first couple of trips on this tank with that, but the trucks are driving faster again, so dunno how that will pan out.

Thinking I'm gonna fill on monday whatever, to try and get a straight highway tank.

[67 Satellite]

O.K.,so what is the final recipe for your "cocktail"? How much TC-3,methanol,isopropyl???

[RoadWarrior]

Okay we'll say 1/20 (.05) to 1/12 (.083) of an ounce of TC-W3 outboard oil per gallon, with 3/4 to 1 1/2 oz of methanol per gallon appears to be the range within which it seems to be working in this fuel which has ethanol, but unsure of exact percentage, may be 5% may be 10%. The upper end of the range may be best to start with if you've got "guaranteed" E10. The isopropyl alcohol is optional at 1/4 an ounce a gallon and added because Marvin seems to have hot start issues (With or without additives) which it improves. I may not actually need that now since I discovered the fault in the evap, which might have been letting pure fuel vapor in the motor when cranking, hence rich start type symptoms.

So that's 1/2 to 3/4 an ounce of TC-W3 per 10G, and 7.5 - 15 oz of methanol for 10G with 2 or 3oz per 10G of IPA optional.

Effects seem to be more noticable when the air temperature is over about 25C or 77F so a "warm air intake" may show additional gains. Also seems to take about 1/4 to 1/3 of the gauge on my temp gauge to start working. Evaporating methanol is known to chill the intake charge quite a bit, which is why drag racers use it, which I guess is why air temp is a factor, still needs to leave things warm enough to react.

[RoadWarrior]

23.77 today, on a high city miles tank, 65%, knew this weekend was gonna be a killer for that, oh well. Hoping to fill Friday to get a high highway miles tank to see how it's doing there.

Can't really see good tanks for comparison in my log, with such high city miles, looks like it might be 1mpg up over non-additive high city tanks.

[RoadWarrior]

Still didn't get my "perfect" tank, but a 25.22 was okay and pulled my 90 day average up over 24 mpg , w00t!

Some figgerin'
Average of 1st 10 tanks logged, no additives 22.74
Average of all "pre methanol" tanks 23.19 includes tanks with other additives.
Average of all methanol tanks. 24.34
Average of all Methanol + TC-W3 tanks 24.90

Percentage gain, all methanol tanks from all "pre-methanol" tanks. 1.15 mpg gain 5%
Percentage gain, all methanol + TC-W3 tanks from all "pre-methanol" tanks. 1.7 mpg gain 7%
Percentage gain, all methanol + TC-W3 tanks from first 10 additive free tanks logged. 2.16 mpg gain 9.5%

Note that methanol only tanks with no TC-W3 were either no gain or slight loss, hard to tell significance on 2 tanks, since they weren't any lower than worst other tanks.

Just for the hell of it, if we delete that last "sucky 65% city" tank as atypical, and unrepresentative of "normal " driving patterns, the average for TC-W3 + methanol goes to 25.02, meaning a gain of 2.27 mpg over 1st 10, or a solid 10%.

Still no other mods or testing different driving strategies yet, should get on that real soon now...

[RoadWarrior]

I used up my gallon of hardware store "Methyl Hydrate", so this current fill got the "Fondue Fuel" in it, I skipped TC-W3 this tank, mildly concerned about getting too much of a build up of it.

This stuff definitely seems to run a little different than the clear hardware store stuff. It's dyed blue, I have a strong suspicion that it's dyed with copper sulphate. I'm getting a faint "rotten eggs" whiff while driving around the city. However, walking around last night, I was catching faint "rotten eggs" whiffs from a large number of other cars. You usually expect to smell the odd brand new car, but there was definitely some couple of year old models that should have been over that stage, but not old enough that their cats should be failing yet. My cat is just coming up to 3 years old, and stunk for only the first month.

Anyway, finding that a little hard to figure, either we've been getting some sulpherous gas round here lately, or it's coincidence, or I've got raised sulfates in the exhaust from a few ppm copper sulfate...

Also trying to figure the exact mechanism for that. There's a touch of sulphur in the gas anyway, and the smell is taken as "new cat" or "failing cat" or "failing O2" sensor quite often. BUT why is that? It's taken as a sign of running too rich, or not scrubbing the HC well enough. However it appears to be a result of "not enough" NOx for the HC produced. The NOx is split into N and O and the O converts remaining HC and CO into CO2 and H2O.

So this could mean that everything is running perfect, but it's making less NOx, which you'd think would be a good thing, apart from it doesn't liberate the O2 to deal with the HC or the H2S which wouldn't normally be smelt when it's turned into sulfur dioxide or trioxide. (Which is still bad stuff)

So, if this is the case I might want to lean the motor to attempt to make more NOx, and let more O2 through, or the fuel trim just hasn't caught up with the "Fondue Fuel" being more efficient than the "Methyl Hydrate" and this will fix itself when I go up the highway on Monday.

Or the other other "problem" might be it's too lean, making too much HC, which leaves no O for treating H2S

Or it might be increased H2S if it's a result of the fondue fuel dye being copper sulphate.

So, I've got a bit of a quandary...
my vehicle is smelling slightly sulferous.
but other vehicles are also smelling slightly sulferous.
cause might be any of:
Increased local sulphur content in gas
FF affecting burn temp making less NOx
FF contains sulphate.
Fuel trim not adjusted yet, running slightly rich.
Problem with Cat
Problem with O2 sensor.
Also could be that I'm catching sulphur whiffs everywhere I go off other vehicles and mine is fine.

Trying to scheme up some tests to determine what the hell is in the Fondue Fuel for sure. Presence of a copper compound would have a highly catalytic effect, but extra sulphates are baaad mmmkay. Not entirely sure about the copper, on the one hand it is a soft metal and will act as an anti wear agent building up scuffed surfaces, on the other, it might very very slowly plate the O2 sensor and cat, it would actually keep the cat working due to being catalytic but is meant to favor the formation of cancerous dioxins (Although I don't fully understand that bit, coz the bad publicity seems to be about chlorinated dioxins and I can't see where the chlorine would come from )

[RoadWarrior]

So that was another A, for ABA of with/without TC-W3 I guess, only pulled a 23.15, wasn't liking how it ran, felt like bad gas. No more rotten eggs smell, musta been picking it up off other vehicles, another gas station must have got a sulpherous batch in or something.

Wonder if I can draw any conclusions from it running a couple of mpg higher than the clear methanol did without any TC-W3 in it... we'll find out, added TC-W3 again this time. No IPA again, don't think I need it any more, must have been the evap glitching.

Something wierd with this stuff though, my gauge falls a lot quicker, I was tearing my hair out thinking I was only gonna get 20, the gauge was under the quarter enough that I expected to get another gallon and a half in. I think that was what the initial run of the "blue stuff" was like, gas gauge seemed to drop quick, but at fillup it took less.

I've got a suspicion that it's slightly electrically conductive or something and is messing with the sender unit. Have to keep an eye on that. Can't have the smurf pee messing up my sender.

Temps weren't all that good for this cocktail this last tank either. Kinda wondering if it would have done better on it's own but for that. Also been having a lot of "drop cogs and mash pedal" type merges lately, vehicles that slow down and lurk in my blind spot instead of just coming past and getting the hell out of the way are really annoying.