Hydrogen Generator!

[SVOboy]

Check it out, it seems to be interesting:

<a href=http://h2gen.info/ target=_blank>Homemade Hydrogen Generator</a>
<a href=http://www.savefuel.ca/ target=_blank>Buy one</a>

So, I know there is a thing about humifying, but I think it is worth talking about the way that the first is made and how much would that really cost compared to the second, if you get my drift. I dunno, it's a confusing thing to me, I dunno, I'd love to make one though.

[Flatland2D]

I'm in the process of researching these things. Despite the small amount of gas produced, many people have noted large increases in efficiency. 50 to 100% increases are talked about on the websites that sell these.

I'm specifically researching electrode materials, electrode shape and orientation, eletrolytes, and pulsing current instead of continuous flow. Once I get as complete of an understanding I can get of all these things I will create my own design and test its performance.

This sounds like one of the most promising mpg boosting ideas. I'm looking forward to this one.

[diamondlarry]

I wanted to make a comment on the Hydro-Gen in your link. I purchased one of these early this spring. Due to some problems I was having with my car I was not able to accurately document a mileage increase but it did seem to help some. I only used it for a short time because the electrodes eroded away to nothing. They were supposed to be high grade stainless steel. I used baking soda for the electrolyte and ran at 10-20 amps and they still eroded. They were a threaded rod that I believe may have only been zinc coated and not actually stainless steel. Otherwise, baking soda would not have eaten them up.

[SVOboy]

I think that the kit thingy is kinda a rip considering flatland's thing about how much mpg savers are costing us know-nothings. However, I do heartily look forward to hearing what he has learned about it, cuz yeah, I'm physched, he's a smart one...I'm about to email my physics teacher to bring me his copy of flatland on monday. Well, he's teaching me mutlivariable calc now, but he'll always be an ap physics teacher in my heart.

[Flatland2D]

Well I'm conducting some experiments right now. I'm testing different shapes of electrodes. So far, parallel plates seem to produce the most bubbles. I've tried rods and wire mesh, and I have some ideas I haven't tested yet. Hydrogen production increases as the electrodes get closer. It's very noticable at about a 0.25" gap. This is simply because the system draws much more current. Breaking down water is based soley on the number of electrons passing through the water. More electrons equals more current by definition. Voltage should play no part in production and that is the first thing that is different with what I'm doing. All the hydro-boost units I've heard of run on 12VDC. I don't see any reason why you couldn't run it on 5V or even 3V. That would cut power consumed by the unit by 75%. I think that's a good thing because some people have noticed their electrolysis system getting very hot. Heat may actually be a good thing in breaking down hydrogen, but that's another test. I don't have an ammeter here to measure how much current I'm drawing. I may have to borrow one from work when I come up with a good design. What would you guys say would be an acceptable load for a hydrogen boost unit to consume? 20 amps sounds like a lot, and I know some of the commercial units consume that much. The idea is to not consume power so fast that the alternator can't recharge the battery, too. How many amps can a typical alternator put out anyway?

I stopped by a science supply store today and found out I can buy sulfuric acid there. That has been said to be the best electrolyte by far, but it's also the most corrosive. Salt has been the best one I've used so far and might have some benefits over acids/bases. Salt will still corrode electrodes, but I'm guessing it's not nearly as bad as a strong acid or base will. So now it's just a matter of finding out what electrodes will not rust.

I'm glad you're going to read the book. I have to admit, the first half is sometimes a little boring. It's not till the second half that Mr. Square gets visited. But you have to know everything from the first have to really understand it all and his perspective. It's a short book though and shouldn't take long to read. It was my AP chemistry teacher that got me interested in the book.

[SVOboy]

Yeah, so I looked up some basic alternator crap and it seems like 75 is a good oem number, I also heard 25% of battery capacity but I'll be damned if I know my battery capacity (I'd rather figure out why my brakes quit today). However, if it seems advantageous to such a degree that lots of amps are necessary you can get yourself a high output alternator that will shoot out 150 amps, but the cost seems steep. I dunno.

[dfoxengr]

tungsten should be a good electrode.
it is usually seen being used as an elcetrode for welding.


does the process of electrolysis for H+ production go something like this? i assume its something like current between the two electrodes in a water/baking soda(electrolyte) mixture produces bubbles which are pure H+?

[Flatland2D]

Tungsten might work well but it's expensive. I just looked up the price for a 1/4" tungsten rod 8" long and it is $50. If it never wore away, it might be worthwhile, but you have to consider you'll have to save $50 in gas just to break in even. I'm really hoping the super high grade steel will work well. I will go to a place that sells metal working supplies to pick some up in the next few days. The guy next to the shop I work at is a welder, so he might be able to hook me up.

You pretty much have the right idea for electrolysis. You don't even need an electrolyte, but it makes a huge difference. Hydrogen is created at the cathode and oxygen at the anode. I believe they immediately form into their diatomic gasses. The nice thing about this process is that you're also making oxygen which is good for combustion, however you produce twice as much hydrogen as oxygen.

[dfoxengr]

so you can run electricity through the water and produce H without anything else added right?
have you thought about copper as the terminals?
they probably corrode though huh.

do the added chemicals make better reactions then?

but twice as much H+ isnt a bad thing.
ive heard of people needing to separate the H and O? why is that. should you just plumb the line into the intake and use both gases as fuel?

are you using mcmaster to check the price?
i love that site.

[Flatland2D]

Yes, you don't need to add anything to water to produce hydrogen, but it will make a big difference if you do. Salt dissociates into Na+ and Cl- in water and allows for easier flow of electrons. All the electrolytes work the same way.

Copper corrodes pretty bad.

It is suggested that you keep the H2 and O2 separate because igniting H2 by itself will be a much less violent explosion than an H2-O2 mixture. The difference is quite significant. The thinking is that a back-fire could possibly ignite the mixed gasses and possibly blow up your engine. I'm not sure how I'm going to set mine up. I'd like to design it for separate H2 and O2 gasses, but that complicates the design a little.

Speaking of back-fires, what conditions would cause it to happen? I would not worry too much about it on my car, but I just want to make sure.

Yes, I checked the prices on McMaster. That site is an engineer's wet dream.

[dfoxengr]

lol i get tons of stuff from there. i wouldnt worry about it "blowing up" but it could cause a fire. i would suggest making a very good outter container to contain blasts if possible. it is very unlikely that a flame will come back out through the intake valves anyways. especially on a stock cammed motor...

[SVOboy]

Can anyone put up some good electrolysis theory background stuff for those of us who have only done one chemistry course? Thanks in advance.

[Flatland2D]

Last night I produced hydrogen substantially faster than I had ever done before. The secret was boiling the water. I've heard this theory discussed before but I haven't seen anyone implement in their hydrogen generator. I couldn't believe my eyes when I put the electrodes in. The surface of the water/salt mixture was convex from the large amount of bubbles rising to the surface. The electrolyte was continually being mixed by the convection caused by the bubbles.

The idea behind boiling the water is to give the water molecules an energy boost so it takes less electricity to supply the remainding energy to break the molecule apart.

The cathode (the electrode producing the H2) was eroding much faster than the anode. Maybe it is only necessary to have one electrode with high corrosion resistence and the other is less important. I had not seen my electrodes erode so fast before.

I tried a two cell generator in series to keep the current the same but divide the voltage across each cell. Unfortunately my idea about voltage being independent of H2 production was wrong. There are many more bubbles at full voltage than at half voltage. I will probably rig up a better test device to confirm this. I'm still using drinking glasses and coat hangers for electrodes. Even though two cells at half voltage are producing less bubbles per cell, they still might be producing more bubbles together than one cell at full voltage. I would consider up to four cells in my generator. There might be a current/voltage trade-off.

I still haven't gone up to sulfuric acid as an electrode, which is supposed to be much better than salt. Electrode erosion will probably happen much faster, but I will try to make it to the metal supplies store soon to by the highest grade steel I can find and samples of other corrosion resistent metals.

So now I've been thinking about how to heat up my generator in the car. I am thinking about using a water jacket like in the picture I made below. It consists of one container inside another with engine coolant (green) heating up the inner container.

<img src="http://www.morlinos.com/delsol/waterjacket.GIF">

My only reservation about this is that I don't want to mess with the coolant system too much. Any mistakes on my part could permanently damage my engine. The coolant hoses are too wide to simply put a T fitting on. I would want to avoid drilling and tapping my radiator. I could always use an electric heater, but they consume lots of energy, especially to get up to boiling point. I wouldn't want to strain the alternator too much. There's too much heat under the hood to let it all go to waste. Anyone have some ideas on how I might heat this thing up? I've heard someone give the idea of wrapping small diameter copper tubing about an exhaust header which might work, but might also require a pump. The heated fluid might pump itself, like how a heat pump works. I don't know.

Any ideas? Comments?

[SVOboy]

I dun see why rerouting the coolant is such a big deal. In my experience with WVO the main thing is rerouting the coolant so that is goes all the way to the back of the car and hangs around in the second tank to heat up the oil. I've never seen anyone have a problem with something like that or talk about that having a potential for problems.

[Flatland2D]

Sounds good. Let me go outside and see if there's anywhere I can easily tap off the coolant.

[SVOboy]

It should be basically anywhere on the old flexy lines. I dunno how you'll do it with all the coolant running through or some or what? Might consider some vavles and blah blah blah for testing and easy isolation and blah, mehbe, I dunno.

[Matt Timion]

First of all, I have a question, and then I have an idea as to how you can reroute your coolant.

Why not just produce the hydrogen at home and somehow get it into a kerosine tank? you can then replace electrodes when you need to. it is also much easier to boil water on a gas stove, and much cheaper too.

Okay, back to an idea.

At the bottom of the radiator and at the bottom of the engine block there should be a coolant drain. It's usually a small threaded bolt that when you unscrew it all of the coolant comes out.

Why not get a hose with a threaded end and just attach it to the drain? Obviously this idea needs some work, but it would be very easy to tap into that hole. No drilling needed.

[Flatland2D]

I think it would be difficult to store the amount of hydrogen required because it would have to be pressurized to get it small enough to carry in a car. I believe the hydrogen storage tanks used on fuel cell cars are pressurized to 5000 psi. Electrolysis will only pressurize the produced gasses to a small fraction of that. It is a promising idea though and it is the way fuel cell cars are working already. The only problem is that you can't buy hydrogen at gas stations yet. At home you could at least be producing 24 hours a day with almost no current limitations, but storage at high pressure is a problem for an amateur.

Just connecting to the drain cock would not allow a return path for the coolant to flow through. It would have to be cycled back to the radiator somehow.
EDIT: Just realized you said there is a drain at the bottom of the engine block, too. That would be enough to provide a pathway through the device.

I got that part figured out now. Upon inspection, I saw there is a 1/4" hose that tee's off of the main coolant hose and takes it to the throttle body. After a little research, disconnecting the coolant to the throttle body is a widely done modification. It is only used to keep the throttle body from freezing in extremely cold climates and has the adverse effect of heating the incoming air once the engine gets warm. I don't think I'll have the freezing problem down here in Texas, but even people in freezing climates said the mod hasn't caused any problems. I plan to carry coolant to my generator by either putting it inline with the coolant going to the throttle body, or disconnecting the coolant to the throttle body and using is exclusively for my generator.

[Matt Timion]

I always thought that warm air was GOOD for gas mileage. wouldn't a coolant hose connected to the TB effectively heat the incoming air, thus helping increase mileage?

i've heard so much about warm air versus cold air, that I really don't know any more which is best for gas mileage.

[SVOboy]

I think the warm air is better as it gives you less air actually around, and the hybrid people is where that idea is coming from and they test things really meticulously, but the CAI people are all just performance people who don't really care that much (from my experience). However, I am thinking the coolant to the intake is meant to thin out the gas, especially in cold weather, so that it sprays finer through the injectors.

[Flatland2D]

I have decided it would be best to put the generator inline with the throttle body coolant. If there are any mpg gains/losses with cold/warm air, that would mess up the results of my hydrogen generator. Future tests could indicate which is better. I personally don't think it'll matter. The intake manifold area is already smoking hot from the engine, I don't think it'll make a difference either way.

[Matt Timion]

I was thinking about this more tonight, and I think you're right. There is so much ambient heat in the engine bay that I'm sure it won't matter a bit. This is probably the exact same reason removing the coolant line to the TB has little or no effect.

I'm personally very excited about what you're doing.

I can't remember if I read it here or not, but are you planning on seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen? If so, how are you going to do this?

[Flatland2D]

I would like to keep the gasses separated, but I don't know that it's necessary. I was planning on having the H2 go to the intake on the same vacuum line as the PCV valve and the O2 going to a hose barb I already have on my intake tube. The only reason to do this is you should have a less violent explosion if just the H2 is combusting. I don't think that is much of a possibility though.

H2 comes off the cathode (negative) and O2 off the anode (positive). I believe this is only true for the electrolysis of pure water though. I was reading somewhere about using salt as the electrolyte and the resulting gasses were H2 and Cl2. I verified this in my experiments. I was definitely producing Cl2 (chlorine or mustard gas) because the smell is very distinct. In this case it would be nice to discard the unused gas somewhere else. I need to figure out what I'll produce with sulfuric acid just to be sure.

Hopefully this weekend I'll make some test cells so I can accurately measure the volume of gas produced. I saw a really old ammeter at work last night that is capable of measuring up to 50A or something like that. I will borrow it for these tests.

[dfoxengr]

cool work. keep it updated. and yes the TB coolant line is what i was going to suggest also.

[Flatland2D]

I tried baking soda as an electrolye last night. Near boiling point it was much more impressive than salt which produces better results at room temperature. There is an important difference in these two solutions. Salt is producing hydrogen and chlorine gas, the latter is not useful at all. Baking soda is producing hydrogen and oxygen, both very useful during combustion. Also, the rate of production at the anode is much higher with baking soda. Salt just barely produces chlorine gas, but baking soda produces oxygen almost as fast as hydrogen (stoic. it's 2:1 though). This is a very good thing.

Most of the hydrogen generators for sale seem to recommend basic (as in not acidic) electrolytes. They are also the ones claiming to be all or nearly maintenance free. I wonder if they are less corrosive. In the little time I experimented last night I didn't notice any build up. They looked cleaner than usual. I'll try a prolonged test in the coming days to verify this. I'd also like to try a much stronger base such as lye.

I was drawing about 7 to 8 amps from my generator. I'm trying to keep my max current around 15 to 20 amps. I could put another cell in parallel and be generating twice as much H2/O2 and still be within my limits.

[Diemaster]

why not make the heater in paralell or even relace the heater inthe car. that would produce plenty of heat. or if coolent is a problem u could use oil. just remimber that your containor must withstand 20 psi on collent or ~60 w/ oil.

[Flatland2D]

Putting a heater in parallel (I'm assuming you mean electrical) would be drawing unnecessary current. There's way too much heat being generated under the hood to make use of that the idea of adding another heater seems inefficient.

I'd rather not take away the car's heater just for this application. It is handy to have for the few weeks each year it gets cold.

Withstanding pressure won't be a problem at 20psi.

[Diemaster]

no put your new heater in paralell the the heater in the car ussing the coolent lines. dont go electrical. just T off the heater hoses.

[dfoxengr]

gotten any metals not to corrode as the nodes?

[Flatland2D]

Well tomorrow I'll <i>finally</i> be going to the metal supplies store to pick up some high grade stainless steel and anything else I can find that might work. Hopefully I can do some extended tests with the new materials.

I set up a test rig for determining if two cells in series are better than one. I'm trying to keep as many things constant as possible. I'll post pictures of what I'm doing after the test, which will hopefully be tomorrow also.

[Flatland2D]

Didn't make it to the metal store today. They are closed Saturdays. I think I'll just order some stuff on McMaster. The place is about 30 minutes away and I'm lazy. I'll probably pay the same for shipping and handling as I would for gas going there and back.

I did some experiments tonight. I got some decent results, but I couldn't continue much longer after my wires began to melt. The last trial drew about 17 amps, so I'll need to upgrade wires. I don't have time to post the results tonight, but I'll post a pic of my setup real quick. I'll post more pictures, results, and details when I get the time. Hopefully by tomorrow night.

<img src="http://www.morlinos.com/delsol/h2setup.jpg">

[Compaq888]

Check it out, it seems to be interesting:

<a href=http://h2gen.info/ target=_blank>Homemade Hydrogen Generator</a>
<a href=http://www.savefuel.ca/ target=_blank>Buy one</a>

So, I know there is a thing about humifying, but I think it is worth talking about the way that the first is made and how much would that really cost compared to the second, if you get my drift. I dunno, it's a confusing thing to me, I dunno, I'd love to make one though.

Sorry for the bump. But can I run the system exactly as it is in the video without damaging my motor?

In the video it looks like they are producing only small amounts of hydrogen. Flatland how is your progress going?

[SVOboy]

I think he's rather busy, there are some on ebay you can get that I'm pretty sure work well, lemme try and find what I'm thinking of.

[SVOboy]

<a href=http://cgi.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-Kit-Save-Gas-Save-Fuel_W0QQitemZ5824975072QQcategoryZ294QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem target=_blank>Build your own kit</a>
<a href=http://cgi.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-Save-Fuel-Gas-experiment_W0QQitemZ5824706960QQcategoryZ294QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem target=_blank>Built</a>
<a href=http://cgi.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-Save-Fuel-Gas_W0QQitemZ5824973871QQcategoryZ294QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem target=_blank>The most hardcore one</a>

[Compaq888]

<a href=http://cgi.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-Kit-Save-Gas-Save-Fuel_W0QQitemZ5824975072QQcategoryZ294QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem target=_blank>Build your own kit</a>
<a href=http://cgi.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-Save-Fuel-Gas-experiment_W0QQitemZ5824706960QQcategoryZ294QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem target=_blank>Built</a>
<a href=http://cgi.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Generator-Save-Fuel-Gas_W0QQitemZ5824973871QQcategoryZ294QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem target=_blank>The most hardcore one</a>

I wouldn't buy some of them. After reading the stories you got to be careful what kind of container you use and how much of the ingredients you use. Having a weak container could melt because the temp rises 150F+. Some of those containers are too big and if you turn off your car and leave the reaction could still be going.

I think If I do this it would be best for me to build myself a system and a small one at that.

Also I read that hydrogen corrodes copper really bad and I have copper spark plugs. Am I going to be ok?

So far I see 2 methods of making hydrogen. One is without elecritity which is a little messy and the other is with electricity but less messy. Can we use a small solar panel to power these? Maybe have the solar panel on the dash that way we don't use any of the power from the car.

[Matt Timion]

Can we use a small solar panel to power these? Maybe have the solar panel on the dash that way we don't use any of the power from the car.

Solar panels will not produce enough electricity to do this Using the car's power seems to be the best way to do it.

Flatland2d was actually thinking of making kits and selling them either here or on ebay. it might be worth the wait to see what he comes up with.

[Compaq888]

Can we use a small solar panel to power these? Maybe have the solar panel on the dash that way we don't use any of the power from the car.

Solar panels will not produce enough electricity to do this Using the car's power seems to be the best way to do it.

Flatland2d was actually thinking of making kits and selling them either here or on ebay. it might be worth the wait to see what he comes up with.


He hasn't replied in almost a month which gives me the idea he dropped the project. He seems to know what he is doing, especially with the metals. If he sells the kits that will run on electric power and make a little mess I'll buy it. I know how to make this system now, but I don't want to make my own.

Also is it better to introduce hydrogen after the air filter so more goes into the engine? Or is it better before the air filter because it still has some crap in it.

Hydrogen should be regulated to the amount of gas pedal you're pressing or the amount the TB( throttle body) is opening that way some of it doesn't go to waste and the car works longer on hydrogen+gasolene.

I also pay attention to safety because I used to have nitrous in my car so you have to be really careful with the motor.

[SVOboy]

Why don't you want to build a system yourself? I'm really interested in building my own, just haven't wandered across something totally comprehensive on the subject.

[Compaq888]

Why don't you want to build a system yourself? I'm really interested in building my own, just haven't wandered across something totally comprehensive on the subject.

I personally want the electrical version of it because it simplifies things. But I don't know nothing of electricity and don't want to experiment.

I have tested this hydrogen thing and it works. I put some water and baking soda in a jar. I then added a slim fast can(crushed). It only worked after I heated it up. So if the system is in the engine bay it will keep working. Next time I need to use a hairdryer on the can to take the picture off that way the reaction will start faster and work better.

[Compaq888]

Also adding a little bit amount of hydrogen peroxide made it speed up under heat.

hydrogen peroxide is dirt cheap. It's like 69 cents for a cup size bottle.

[Flatland2D]

Sorry I haven't been around much. I am busy with school and work and honestly, I have a lot of hobbies that I bounce around from. Sort of taking a break from this stuff till I get inspired with new ideas to try more things.

That said, the research I did in my kitchen was ultimately inconclusive. I was testing if two cells at half voltage was better than one cell at full voltage. It appears one cell is better, but some trials were inconsistent so there is more testing to be done. I eventually burned up my wires and melted all their insulation off from the current going through them. I believe the most I drew was around 27A, and these were about 24AWG wires. It'd probably draw more with thicker wires. The whole thing would need to be rewired with 12AWG wire.

The two major factors I found were using a good electrolyte and keeping it heated. KOH (aka potassium hydroxide aka lye) sounds like the best electrolyte from reading other peoples' reports. One of the most important properties of a good electrolyte is minimal corrosion of the electrodes. KOH seemed to corrode the least (from what I read) and yet is still a really powerful charge carrier. Heated NaCl was the best that I tried, better than baking soda. However baking soda produces two useful gasses (H2 and O2) over just the H2 of NaCl. NaCl also produces Cl2, which is really poisonous, but at a much slower rate.

Keeping the system heated would be easy with the throttle body coolant line running through a water jacket around the generator. The main difficulty was finding a cheap and simple way to implement this. Even though I have access to a machine shop and a welder, I'd want to design it in a way that anyone could make. A drill press would be pretty hard to do without though.

I never got around to testing different metals. One of the more abstract ideas was to use graphite rods. Someone mentioned it on another forum but I don't think anyone has tried it yet. Hopefully the carbon wouldn't react with the electrolyte like other metals, but it's still conductive. I did test some 0.5mm pencil lead that failed horribly, but that might be a little different composition than thicker graphite rod, I'm thinking about 0.25" diameter. The pencil lead broke up in no time, but it did conduct just fine.

I have not tested H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), but that sounds like it might be a good idea if it can produce H2 fast enough. Try boiling NaCl and an H2O2 mixture and see what does better. The good thing about H2O2 is it should only produce "useful" gasses.

I hope to stop by here more often. Catch me on AIM if you need anything.

[Compaq888]

What really surprised me is how fast hydrogen peroxide made the reaction happen.

I see you are having progress with the minimal corrosion. Is it possible to produce the same amount of hydrogen with the electric method as the chemical method without moderate corrosion of good quality metal?

[Compaq888]

I went to 3 different places looking for CPVC and nobody had it. Nobody had Red devil lye because now it's illegal. The hydrogen generator project sucks!

[SVOboy]

Haha, what materials list are you using? Mehbe you should find another, I'll poke around for one that doesn't use this crap.

[Compaq888]

CPVC pipe does exist but I have a hard time finding it in a store. I don't want to order it online. Red devil lye is illegal now so I can only buy drano.

I just need CPVC with the ends and all the fittings and some hoses and some draino. I know where to get draino. I know where to get a chunk of aluminum. Using a chunk of aluminum instead of soda and beers cans will make the reaction last longer and it will be consistent. I was thinking of using the elecrolysis method for short amount of driving and the chemical method for long periods of time.( trips going to another city and etc.)

[SVOboy]

Sounds like a pretty good set up, I hope you can get hold of some cpvc pipe, I'm sure you can find some, might have to check lumber yards or plumbing places, they often have suchness.

[Compaq888]

I did but nobody has some. I even asked them to what temp it's rated to and the guy was like "i dunno"

Also PVC and CPVC can't be used for compressed air or gas so I am confused like crazy.

[Compaq888]

I went out and bought some ABS since it's stronger than PVC. They didn't have some stuff so I got some 3" diameter for my bubbler. I got all the 4" pipe stuff except the pipe itself.

In total I spent $53 but I got enough stuff to run 2 systems instead of one. I still need some fittings and 4" pipe. Then after that it will be ready.

The chemical method will go in 1st.

[SVOboy]

Sweet, keep up the good work! If you wanna do I write up that'd be lovely! I am not a visual learner, but when I'm putting stuff together I can't do it without pictures, haha. :-), I hope it works well, could be pushing 35 mpg...

[Compaq888]

I'll probably do a writeup with all the part numbers and instructions. I think I found some really good fittings for both systems. I have a couple of ideas for the electrolysis hydrogen generator but that will be later on. I just want to get it into my car.

[SVOboy]

I'll probably do a writeup with all the part numbers and instructions. I think I found some really good fittings for both systems. I have a couple of ideas for the electrolysis hydrogen generator but that will be later on. I just want to get it into my car.

That's the way to do it, just see if it works right before you go crazy trying to perfect it.

[beatr911]

Has anyone looked at the HyZor unit at www.eagle-research.com/? I have one of this guys O2 sensor voltage adders and it does work as advertised. That alone was worth 1-2mpg to move from stoich to just lean of stoich on my wifes '89 240SX. Supposedly it is necessary to get the most out of other mileage improving devices.

In the newsletter he claims to have found an efficient way to produce H by using heat, and multiple plates (no suprise there) using electrolysis. Most beneficial though is the ability to regulate how much H is made. In his directions for building one of these units, he stresses finding the optimum point at which the drag on the engine to make the electricity for elecrolysis becomes less than the benefit to fuel mileage, creating a net gain in mileage. In effect using the hydrogen as a combusion catalyst where too much brings decreasing improvements because of the increased energy to produce the H. Each application is apparently different so the user is on thier own to experiment for the maximum benefit. It seems that there should be a chemically optimum point, but I only have 2 quarters of college chemistry.

His most recent newsletter states that he is selling assembled units for like $389. Kinda steep. By my calculations if your mileage went from say 30mpg to 40mpg and this thing required no other expenses, it would have to last 18,701 miles to pay for itsself at $2.50/gallon. It's like solar electricity in Seattle - its a lifestyle choice, costs be damned.

The benefit of using an electric unit is that it's controllable and doesn't have the caustic hassles of a lye unit.

Just curious to know what others have found on this guys stuff.

[Compaq888]

There is no way in hell I'm paying $389. So far I payed $53 and I have about $20 worth of stuff to buy more.

BTW, all the units require mainenance. So that is always more money. If I get 35mpg my system will pay off in 5 fill ups.

When you make a system yourself you actually know what you are doing and how it is made and the quality of the part that goes inside. Some of these companies sell crappy electrodes and are only good for a couple miles.

[Flatland2D]

I'm still not sure lye is the reactant you need for doing it the chemical method. It's used in electrolysis because K+ and OH- are very strong ions. Ions carry the charge through the electrolyte from the electrodes.

PVC is just fine for compressed gas. They say you're not supposed to use it because when a pipe pressurized with gas fails, that gas is going to have a lot of kinetic energy with it, meaning it'll send shardes of plastic everywhere. A liquid on the other hand won't expand when it bursts a pipe like gas does and is "safer" do a degree. ABS is much worse than PVC when it fails because it's cellular core and will break into smaller pieces upon failure. Just don't exceed the rated pressure (even a 50% safety margin would be a good idea) and you'll be ok. I use my 10' potato cannon made of PVC all the time and it works fine. Anyway, just thought I'd mention that if you care to use the stuff.

PVC does not like being heated and the pressure rating will severely drop. At boiling temperatures, PVC can be squeezed and molded by hand. Since the rate of H2 production increases so dramatically with heat, you need something capable of operating at those temperatures, which means you're stuck with metal. The downside to that is that metal is more expensive and it's also harder to work with. It requires more tools to get the job done right. There's no other way about it though unless you use a high performance plastic, but that's way more expensive. You will have to isolate your electrodes from shorting against the metal container though, so that's one thing you'd need to consider.

[Compaq888]

Oh my god so much info. I'm still going through with this and will still use ABS. I plan to have a crap load of safety stuff with it. I looked at CPVC and it was sold very high.

If I get 35mpg I'll be happy. The chemical method is only good for long distances. So I'll use it when driving to work or on long trips.

[SVOboy]

Great, safety is important, I'm excited to see how this works out, haha, I'm def down for doing it, you can also try the new distributor cap thing, ;-)

[Compaq888]

one thing at a time. I'm going to be poor after this project if I don't get my mileage up, lol.

[SVOboy]

Haha, seriously, my wudder injectio will cost ~ 7 or 8 dollars and I can't afford it yet.

[Matt Timion]

If I get 35mpg I'll be happy. The chemical method is only good for long distances. So I'll use it when driving to work or on long trips.

Quick question about the chemical method. Let's say you reach your destination and there is still a chemical reaction left (ie, there is still aluminum, etc). What happens then? The gases are very hot so you can't just open your hood and disconnect the hose, and with a closed throttle the gases will be backing up into your intake tube back towards your air filter.

You might actually end up filling your entire engine compartment with hydrogen, which isn't a good thing considering the engine temps.

What is the solution around this? The chemical reaction may just keep going after the car is stopped.

[Compaq888]

That is what i'm scared off. That is why I only want to use it on long distance trips so the reaction will stop before I get to my destination. I will experiment with cans and water how long the reaction will run out.

Also the air dam trick will have to come out since I can't play with temp like that.

I was thinking of starting with the chemical reaction then if it works then I'll get a dry pump and a hydrogen safe container and all the hydrogen that I won't use will go in it. I still have to work all the bugs out in my mind, then on paper, then in the car.

As far as looking at mileage so far that I noticed that It doesn't matter how I accelarate on the streets it's driving on the freeway at 55mph that gives me a huge boost in mileage. I switched to 65mph on cruise control on the freeway and i'll predict i'll get 26mpg.

The project is nowhere near done, the ABS pipes are laying in my room and I still have to research the safety equipment. Oh and I still need to buy the 4" ABS.

I'm still very commited to this because I spent a good chunk of change on this and don't plan to have it go to waste.

[Compaq888]

I went to home depot again for the materials but they didn't have it. They told me to come back later that evening. After class I walked out and my car was hit. Thank god they left a note. I will take care of this then I'll continue the project. Going to go and get an estimate.

[kickflipjr]

I am interested in this. I am worried about the safty factor.


So it goes into the air intake?
How long does the hydrogen last?
What kind of mpg gains?

I guess i need to read up a bit.

[SVOboy]

Haha, reading will help. The stuff that makes it go lasts depending on the stuff used and the rate of reaction and all that, the idea is to figure out what lasts best and use it. I don't think the safety factor is that big if you engineer it well, the guy that sells them on ebay for 100 bucks has some sort of shut off thing that kills his. Most mpg gains are given at about 30%, so 10 mpg on your car.

[Compaq888]

I finally got the 4" ABS pipe. It's really hard to find a piece in home depot. I got my money from the accident too. I will get the car fixed on Monday.

[SVOboy]

Sounds good, sucks on the accident, but hopefully you can get this running and put out there a good guide or something helpful for people like me, :-)

[Compaq888]

I'm sorry guys but I'm really having doubts about the chemical method. It's very unsafe, and I don't want to ruin my car. I'm just starting to get good fuel mileage. I talked to my cousin and he says silver and gold is really good electrodes. He told me they almost/don't corrode. I want to go through with the electrolysis method. I'm going to work close with him on this. He has 10 more classes and he gets a diploma in chemistry(or something like that). Plus his mom is a chemist.

Flatland could you tell me the negatives of electrolysis??? I heard something like it makes oxygen at the same time as hydrogen and it can ignite it in the intake manifold.

[Matt Timion]

I'm sorry guys but I'm really having doubts about the chemical method. It's very unsafe, and I don't want to ruin my car. I'm just starting to get good fuel mileage. I talked to my cousin and he says silver and gold is really good electrodes. He told me they almost/don't corrode. I want to go through with the electrolysis method. I'm going to work close with him on this. He has 10 more classes and he gets a diploma in chemistry(or something like that). Plus his mom is a chemist.

Flatland could you tell me the negatives of electrolysis??? I heard something like it makes oxygen at the same time as hydrogen and it can ignite it in the intake manifold.

from what I understand you just nailed the negatives of electrolisis. o2 is a by-product as well, but that can be changed if you put baking soda (or another chemical) in your water before electrolisis. Flatland's biggest problem was the electrodes corroding. If a way around that can be found I theorize that electrolisis would be the way to go.

I would never do the chemical method myself. I feel it also to be unsafe and difficult to control.

[diamondlarry]

On hydrogen-boost.com Fran Giroux puts a bubbler in between the place where the hose goes into the airbox and the H2 generator. His unit produces H2 and O2 and I never had a problem in the year or so I had it on my Dodge Durango. I ended up taking it off when when I sold the Durango. I would put it on my Saturn but it won't fit. :-(

[SVOboy]

Sell it to someone (me)?

[diamondlarry]

I could do that but I would feel bad charging you what I paid for it. $500. I could sell you the plans to make one but, according to the liscensing agreement I signed at the time, I would still be required to charge $100 for them. I'll talk to Fran Giroux and see if that can be lowered.

[SVOboy]

Wow! That's a heck of a lot, another good reason to keep this thread running, :-)

[Compaq888]

Well as I said my cousin told me that pure gold and silver almost/don't corrode. He knows what I'm talking about. He can even write out the whole formula, I can't.

[diamondlarry]

I just got an email from Fran and he said it would cost $80 for the plans and you would have to sign a liscensing agreement. Here is a quote from Fran's site about his generator.



"What is the Hydrogen-Boost System?

The Hydrogen-Boost System is a gas mileage enhancement system based on the main component, an on-board hydrogen gas generator. We build the most efficient and maintenance free, affordable, compact hydrogen gas generators in the world. Tests have shown over 95% efficiency on some of our prototypes. Our typical hydrogen generator will produce 1.5 to 2 liters of alternative fuel gas (hydrogen and oxygen mixed) per minute using twelve volts and 20-30 amperes."

[SVOboy]

Ah damn, 80s too rich for my blood right now, :-(!

[diamondlarry]

I know how you feel. With some medical things that are going on with my wife, $8 might even be a little rough at the moment. ;-)

[Compaq888]

We will work something out. I'm still working on mine. I'll give you all the part numbers and links where to buy it. Before I can even start to assemble it I have to test out the electrodes.

[Flatland2D]

Producing O2 might actually be a good thing. You'll get better combustion because of more O2 in the cylinder. It'd be like an electrochemical turbo. But then if more O2 in the cylinder actually uses up more gas (do turbos and superchargers increase fuel economy? that's debatable) you might be better off not using the O2. The gasses can be kept separate with a little more work. I was even thinking about putting H2 into the PVC valve vacuum line and the O2 into a barb that's already installed on my intake tube. I don't know if it'd be best to leave the O2 out of it, though.

Gold and silver electrodes are good but very expensive. You'd have to make sure they have an infinite lifespan or replacing them is going to cost a lot. I've heard that platinum is acutally a better electrode. Even more costly though.

Electrolysis is definitely the way to go for producing H2. It's relatively easy and once the corrosion problem is solved, it won't consume any materials (except for a little electrolyte at a VERY slow rate). Plus it can be turned off with the flick of a switch.

[DaX]

Producing O2 might actually be a good thing. You'll get better combustion because of more O2 in the cylinder. It'd be like an electrochemical turbo.

..as long as you add more fuel to the mixture. ;)

[Compaq888]

Yeah we don't want more oxygen in there. Because if we get more oxygen our fuel intake will go up and defeat the purpose of putting a hydrogen generator.

So the next question is how can I separate oxygen and hydrogen when it comes out the chamber?

[diamondlarry]

If you get an EFIE from George Wiseman the ECU won't "see" the extra O2 and the fuel consumption won't go up.

[Compaq888]

EFIE.. What is that?

[SVOboy]

Sits between your o2 sensor and the ecu and tells that ecu the afr is something that it's not.

[Flatland2D]

EFIE - like what SVOboy said, it basically fools you car's computer into reading a false value, letting you manually force the engine rich or lean.

In electrolysis, H2 is produced at the cathode (negative electrode) and O2 at the anode (positive electrode). The gasses mix once they hit the surface so they must be separated in the electrolyte. My idea was to put a sleave (like a tube) around each electrode that would catch all the bubbles inside it. This might slow the reaction down some because there isn't as great of a pathway for charge to flow, but I never tested that idea. I don't think that's much of a problem though since there's other things you can do to draw more current and produce more gas.

[Compaq888]

Even with electrolysis there is a boost in fuel economy. Do you know if the hydrogen boost separates the oxygen and the hydrogen or mixes them together?

Basically a EFIE is like a apexi safc2, right?? That thing fools the computer and lets you add or subtract fuel intake in the fuel map.

[Flatland2D]

If you're talking about the Hydrogen boost brand of generators then no, I don't think they separate. It looks like they just have one hose barb coming off the unit.

[SVOboy]

EFIE should be like the apexi crap, but it's not as precise or expensive, just a lying box.

[Matt Timion]

EFIE should be like the apexi crap, but it's not as precise or expensive, just a lying box.

The EFIE works by increasing the voltage of the signal coming from the o2 sensor. The o2 sensor tells the ECU how much o2 is in the exhaust based on a voltage returned. the EFIE will take that amount and compensate (user defined I assume). If your modifcation burns 20% less gas you can use the EFIE to change the signal by 20%. That way the computer does not sense that the car is running lean and then overcompensate by running rich.

The safc is nice b/c you can tune by RPM range. I actually thought of getting one on my car to have my 2500-3500 rpm range (my highway cruising speed) leaned out a bit. With the new VTEC-E engine however I shouldn't have to worry about that.

[Compaq888]

On my car the safc2 would make a huge difference. My car runs dead rich from about 2900rpm. When I had the problem with the distributor twice I noticed a huge power in the top end. One time I advanced the distributor wrong and it screamed like crazy all the way to redline and chirped the tires when it shifted into another gear. Another time I set my distributor wrong at 13 degrees and my topend was so good. The best fuel economy i get is at 20 degrees, which is stock.

So it looks to me like the hydrogen boost system doesn't separate the oxygen and the hydrogen into 2 different tubes.

Also I know platinum is a good electrode too, but come on, it is so freaking expensive and hard to come by.

[Matt Timion]

Also I know platinum is a good electrode too, but come on, it is so freaking expensive and hard to come by.

You might want to check pawn shops for people's wedding rings. Melt it down and make little poles out of it.

Or just mug someone and take their wedding ring.

[SVOboy]

Don't suggest such things in such a productive thread. This could turn into something big and lovely for a lot of us.

[Compaq888]

hahahaha

I have my dad's wedding ring, but It's gold. It needs to be melted down to a smaller size for my fingers but I'm not going to use it for the generator. I don't plan to get married so it looks like the ring will stay as it is.

[Compaq888]

Well I talked to my cousin's mom who is a chemist and she said it won't hurt the aluminum but it depends on temps too.

I will use the bubbler anyway and it will lower the temp and remove all the crap.

She doesn't want to disclose anymore info. She thinks the fuel economy idea is stupid. They think the more they press the gas the more they save because getting to their location quicker. And they think warming up a car is stupid.

The compression for my car is suppose to be 175 on all cylenders. I got low 180's before nitrous and 190's after nitrous. A good engine cleaner is nitrous because it cleans some crap inside the engine.

Driving 55mph was stupid to gain mpg, but since then I have been driving the speed limit and got almost the same mpg thanks to the tires. He says I drive slow. I don't drive slow, I drive the speed limit. He tells me to drive like everybody else. If I get a ticket everybody else won't pay for it.

Anyway now that I know that it won't hurt the motor I'll continue and go look for some good electrodes. Get the generator done and put it in my car and be done with it. Let's see how stupid it is to get 30+mpg

[Compaq888]

I'm having a really hard time obtaining stainless steel. I go on internet websites and they sell it in bulk. I went to a huge hardware store and all they had was metal, aluminum, brass but they didn't have any stainless steel.

No wonder the hydrogen boost system is $500, it will waste so much time and energy it's easier to buy it for $500.

I'm getting a little frustrated, I'm getting all the stuff all you guys do is read and that's it. Flatland has helped a lot. So did SVOboy, but otherwise I need more help.

Isn't diamondlarry a welder??? Since he works with metal I bet he knows where to obtain the best metals. Maybe he can send me some stainless steel to my specifications and I can have this done. Hell If i get the metal I can probably make $50 a system and sell it. We can have a gassavers.org hydrogen generator. Not only will it be cheap but with the right metal we can have the thing working for a long time.

This should be a group effort. The parts are cheap. Even if the metal costs $20 I can still probably make a system that costs $50-70.

Mine will cost a lot more because I've never done this and have to buy some extra stuff. But #2,3,4,5 and etc will be cheap.

[Compaq888]

Just the ABS material for one system is $25. Then the fitting is $10-20, then the metal. Which will prabably be $20.

Even if the fitting are $20 the price for the whole system is $65.

$65 vs. $500

[diamondlarry]

Isn't diamondlarry a welder??? Since he works with metal I bet he knows where to obtain the best metals. Maybe he can send me some stainless steel to my specifications and I can have this done.
Unfortunately I only weld alluminum. I could ask around though. I heard that going to a scrap yard is a good place to get cheap stainless steel. The only problem with that is they may not have what you need and you may have to go to several places to get it.

[Matt Timion]

I'm getting a little frustrated, I'm getting all the stuff all you guys do is read and that's it. Flatland has helped a lot. So did SVOboy, but otherwise I need more help.

I'd like to apologize for not doing more on this project. I've been rather busy with about a billion projects, one of which is finishing the body work on my car (95% done!) and preparing the engine to be swapped in a little over a month or so (crosses fingers). I decided a while ago not to do any modifications on my car until the new engine is in.

Also considering that I work at home 1 tank of gas often lasts me more than a month.

As soon as this engine is in though I'm going to be ready to try a lot of this stuff. I'm about neck deep though in other projects, a few of which involve this site.

As the site grows we will have more people willing to help. Considering how new this site/community is I'm very please with the group we have here already. A lot of people may want to help, but only a small few will ever have the guts to try something new.

Hopefully flatland will get back here more regularly and help you with your progress.

BTW, don't be afraid to start new threads about this instead of posting in the same thread over and over. This thread will probably lock sometime soon.

[SVOboy]

Yeah, try out a new thread with your whole set up and everything, and start afresh. I'm trying to help as much as I can, but I dunno any welders, just machiners. I'm def looking to buy a system, but with my ecu chipping work I'm dead broke to contribute any money right now. I think your route of electroylisis is the best way, if you want me to start testing electrodes and **** at home, I'd be def down, just link me too some good instructions. :-)

[Compaq888]

Isn't diamondlarry a welder??? Since he works with metal I bet he knows where to obtain the best metals. Maybe he can send me some stainless steel to my specifications and I can have this done.
Unfortunately I only weld alluminum. I could ask around though. I heard that going to a scrap yard is a good place to get cheap stainless steel. The only problem with that is they may not have what you need and you may have to go to several places to get it.

Can you get some for me?? The problem with going somewhere is I don't know what it looks like and people just tell me it's there and don't want to help me look. So far people told me that stainless steel is heavy and magnets don't work on it.

I found plenty of aluminum, but no stainless steel in small amounts.

[DaX]

I can weld. I am taking a TIG course at a local techincal school, and can currently weld mild steel, stainless steel, and aluminum. I'm working my way down to thinner materials, currently I am pretty good at welding stuff down to the 18 gauge range - the last module is to weld two razor blades together, sharp end to sharp end. I don't currently have a machine of my own, but hopefully will have one by August 2006 (graduation present). For a small project, I can do some welding at school. You should check out McMaster-Carr - they're generally pretty good about selling small amounts of metals, and they carry tons of stuff - it's who we use to supply a lot of our raw materials here at work. Their website is easily navigable, and is http://www.mcmaster.com

If you gather up the materials and get me a general plan, I'd be more than happy to do the welding for you. I've only been welding since the begining of September, so my welds aren't always looking like uniform stacked coins, but they penetrate well and I'm getting better. The only downside to me doing the welding is that at school we don't offer any backpurging capabilities, so the backside of the weld is usually kind of ugly. When I have my own setup in August, I will have a separate tank of Argon for the sole purpose of backpurging.

Let me know if you find what you want on McMaster, and if I can help with the welding. You might also want to check out some automotive aftermarket sites for stainless tubing - generally they sell it as exhaust components, and offer it sometimes in diameters up to 6". Here are a few of those sites:

http://www.summitracing.com/
http://www.jegs.com/
http://www.jcwhitney.com/
http://www.barnettperformance.com/

[Compaq888]

I did look at mcmaster and they don't have any specifications I'm looking for. I also know about jegs and summit, I blew more than $2k on those websites.

[Compaq888]

Well I found all the metal I need thanks to flatland. Now the problem is I need to get a device that measures amprage. I don't want to screw up my car so I have to doing a certain amprage to keep my electrical stuff safe.

So far I spent $60 and I have to spend about another $30 on just metal. Then have to buy a amprage device. I think by the time I finish it would of been cheaper to buy a beater and be done with it.

Flatland obviously knows more about this than I do, and I don't have any money to blow so I'm going to wait for you guys.

I have no idea what kind of meter to buy, there are so many kinds. I know I need the one that measures amps.

I think they are like $10-20. Any recommendations?
I want to get this done already.

[SVOboy]

Any old cheap thing should do. I generally borrow one when I need to measure something, so I've never had to buy anything, but just get something cheap and if it doen't work, return it. You are getting rather high in the prices, I wonder how these people sell kits on ebay for like 20 bucks or that custom made assembled one for 100 buck, hope it works though!!

[diamondlarry]

I once found an ammeter guage on Ebay. It seems like it was around $10-$15. I had tried all of the local places and could only find voltmeters.

[Compaq888]

But how do ammeters work??? Do I turn on my hydrogen generator and while it's on connect it to the plus and the minus?

[Compaq888]

Any old cheap thing should do. I generally borrow one when I need to measure something, so I've never had to buy anything, but just get something cheap and if it doen't work, return it. You are getting rather high in the prices, I wonder how these people sell kits on ebay for like 20 bucks or that custom made assembled one for 100 buck, hope it works though!!

Well I'm getting high in the prices because I have almost enough materials to build 2 systems.

I have no doubt that with only water and electrodes and electricity the metal won't corrode. But the crap like draino which makes the reaction better might kill the metal. We will see.

[SVOboy]

Any reaction stuff I can test out for you at home?

[Compaq888]

actually yeah, can you measure the amprage between the distances of the 2 electrodes????

Use 12 gauge wire. And ammeter.

Try these 4 distances. .25", .50", 1", and 2"

That would help me a lot since I am low on money.

If you have any questions, ask.

[SVOboy]

Sure thing, just lemme get into school on monday to get the ammeter and the correct gauge wire and I'll do it during one of my free periods.

[Compaq888]

remember to use a 12 volt source.

[diamondlarry]

You would connect the ammeter in one of the leads. What I do is hook it up and make sure the needle swings the right way. If it doesn't, I switch the leads around. It kind of works like a water pressue or, since this is an automotive forum, a fuel pressure gauge.

[Compaq888]

It's a good thing SVOboy is doing the amp tests, that way I'll save some money.

Hopefully I get the results next week so I can start putting the generator together.

[diamondlarry]

I hope you are successful with your generator. The one I have is too big for my vehicle and I don't have the $500 to buy another one that will fit.

[DaX]

But how do ammeters work??? Do I turn on my hydrogen generator and while it's on connect it to the plus and the minus?

Be sure to connect the ammeter in series with what you are testing. Voltmeters are connected in parallel. Like diamondlarry said, if the needle swings the wrong way [or if the value is negative on the digital readout], simply change lead orientation.

[Compaq888]

SVOboy is going to do the amp test. I'm too broke to do the whole thing from scratch. I basically copied other designs and improve upon them.

[mjo]

Also I know platinum is a good electrode too, but come on, it is so freaking expensive and hard to come by.

You might want to check pawn shops for people's wedding rings. Melt it down and make little poles out of it.

Or just mug someone and take their wedding ring.

I've had a few ideas myself with making a generator.

Why not make your generator using spark plugs? You can buy platinum Bosch +1 spark plugs for like $2 a piece. The model/brand of spark plug you use wouldn't matter. I think you could also use used platinum spark plugs if you could find a good source of them (a junk yard?). If the gap is too small to separate the H2 and O2 gasses you can always use a gap tool to widen the spark plug.

Another idea is to make a series generator by separating them into cells. I've read somewhere that 1.2V splits the water with very little heat dissipation. Ten 1.2V cells in series would make 12V and a dc-dc converter wouldn't be required.

It would be best to use PWM for increasing the amount of H2 generated in proportion with RPM speed. You could do this with a 555 timer and a decent transistor switch.

I'm an EE student so please shoot me some q's if you have them.

Edit:
Oh, BTW, spark plugs are manufactured so that the side and center electrodes wear evenly. The problem with the electrolysis is that the oxygen is attracted to the - terminal and so the - terminal rusts quicker. This also happens in ICE's except at much higher voltages. In this regard, I believe the side electrode is normally used as the - terminal.

[DaX]

Excellent idea!

I saw a kid on campus [Georgia Tech] running a 555 timer circuit for the spark plug start circuit the pulse jet engine used along with the leaf blower. He built and strapped the pulse jet engine onto the back of his gokart...it was nuts.

[Compaq888]

It would be crazy to use an ignition coil and attach a spark plug on the other end. I bet it would produce a lot of hydrogen with just the coil, spark plug and the water.

[CruiseControl]

Personally I think the idea of doing the chemistry in a bouncing car is not practical because the gas pressures will change, and so to will the engine performance. Also the engine won't sense the H2. If this H2 cooker gets to cooking a little to much, at say idle, then you risk melting your cyliners, heads etc. If I were planning this I'd get a cylinder head temp gauge from an old airplane block or something, so you don't risk doing some real damage here. On a more positive note, about the electrodes...
I'm remembering here from the days of the "Cold Fusion" projects. Each electrode should be a different metal, since the valence of each electrode is differnent and the metal acts as a catalyst in the reaction. I believe they stated that Platinum and Paladium were the two best, don't ask me which for which electrode. Mostly they were simply doing electolysis, which is cracking water into it's component gasses.
Guys, check the prices of commercial gasses, it's like $20 bucks for a HUGE 4 foot high tank of O2, that would fill up a house. This would allow you to monitor the amount of gas going into the engine and the rise in cylinder head temps, which I believe are the limiting factor in engine efficiencies, since higher temp burns are more efficient.
There are Nitrous setups out there, and some of them must be home brew, that would have guidelines for it's use and monitoring.
What happens to this thing, when the car is shut off, and its sitting in the garage? Does it keep generating? How is it shut off? What happens when your hood is full of hydrogen and you start your car? If the intake plenum is full of H2, doesn't the explosive nature of H2 pose a backfire through the air intake hazard, when it's started? If this H2 gizmo kept generating all night and leaked, it could fill up the whole garage. Don't light that Marlboro!

[Compaq888]

I'm well aware of all the safety risks and I got all of them covered.

[nathan]

Has anyone built one of these yet?
Or bought one and tested it?
I'd like to build my own at some point but I would like to hear from somone who has already so I know what to expect.
Thanks

[Compaq888]

I went to a few fuel economy websites and read their stuff. Surprisingly they already built hydrogen generators and driving around with them. What absolutly floors me with is I have been to dozens of websites and they can't give a straight answer on mileage.

"Well it's winter gas that lowered the mileage", "Yeah it works, but I got no proof", "The car broke so have to get that fixed"

This is like going to a shady dealership and he/she is making the same crap up.

I'm tired of waiting. If this is not done by January I will get it done by Jan 31st myself. I have spent already $60 into this project and I don't intend to see this go to waste.

As soon as SVOboy gives me the amp results I will order the metal and the fittings and start on assembly.

I have already finished the design in my head and I can convert to chemical method in less than 1 minute to not damage the high grade stainless steel I will be using in the electrolysis method.

[Flatland2D]

I could also help with measuring current draw. I have a meter pulled from an industrial machine that will measure up to 50A. Most of the handheld meters only measure in the mA range.

However, a lot of things will effect current draw. Electrode depth, diameter, shape, material, etc. will all play a part. It isn't enough just to measure them at different distances, BUT that should give you a ballpark number. Electrolyte and temperature will also play a huge part.

[Compaq888]

Could you do that also?

You know the distances, they are .25", .5", 1" and 2"
Make sure you're using 12 gauge wire and a 12 volt power source like a car battery. Make sure the electrodes are plates and not round. You know what I mean. For the first trials use just water and electricity. Then do all those all over but with an electrolyte.

Best luck to you. I want to get this done this year.

[diamondlarry]

I think I've heard you can go as close as .125 inches apart. Heat will make a huge difference in the amount of gas production. When I had my generator on my Durango, it was mounted right near the radiator so I didn't need to wory about adding a heating loop for cold weather.

[Compaq888]

I think I've heard you can go as close as .125 inches apart. Heat will make a huge difference in the amount of gas production. When I had my generator on my Durango, it was mounted right near the radiator so I didn't need to wory about adding a heating loop for cold weather.

I know but I want to know the amps for sure. I don't want to kill my alternator. The altima's achellis heel is the alternator, they go through them like hotcakes. I'm still on my first one. I even put a good grounding kit that even covers the alternator.

[Compaq888]

I did some more research and I narrowed down the metal to 2 pieces.

Piece one is...
Thickness .25"
Length 12"
Width 1"
Material: Stainless Steel type 316

Piece two is...
Thickness .25"
Length 12"
Width 2"
Material Stainless steel type 316

What i'm thinking is if I find a lot of room in the engine bay I'll buy 2 pieces of #1 so that way they can produce more hydrogen. If there is no room I'll get piece #2 but I'll only get one stick and cut it into 2, so that way the generator uses a huge piece but it's small. That way it won't drain lots of amps but still produce a good amount of hydrogen.

Also I've been hearing that sodium hydroxide can even erode the stainless steel fast and that KOH is really gentle on Stainless steel. What is KOH, isn't it potassium hydraxide??? And is it true it's gentle on Stainless steel?

[smoore]

[url=http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=c8ac1a1ef7a6f06544c8877f497f64e4]

[Compaq888]

[url=http://oupower.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=c8ac1a1ef7a6f06544c8877f497f64e4]

Good find, but it's nothing new. I already did enough research to know all that.

Anyway here is an update. I find some space in my engine bay for the generator and the bubbler.
Problems....
1)The generator can only be 8-9 inches tall due to limited space.
2)The chemical method can't be worked because putting the generator in that spot requires intake to be taken off and then putting it back on. So the only thing I can do is check electrodes and add water.
3) The generator will be 2-3 feet away from the intake entrance which means I need a big hose.

Here are some positives....
1)Since the generator and bubbler will be black it will be hidden from the view.
2) The generator will be right next to the engine. So it will help the reaction.

Now I have a question, can I attach the generator to the tranny?? It will only touch the tranny and nothing else.

[Compaq888]

Well my theory was proved... KOH is the best electrocyte to use with Stainless steel as an electorode for the longevity of the electrodes and the reaction.

KOH=Potassium Hydroxide

What products are potassium hydroxide????

[DaX]

KOH=Potassium Hydroxide

What products are potassium hydroxide????

Potash lye if you can find it. The other more common type of lye is sodium hydroxide.

[CruiseControl]

Avoid buying Labratory or Phamaceutical grade potassium anything, as pure potassium salts can be cracked into the raw materials for plastic explosives, and might be on some Home Land Security list of monitored substances. Lye would have to many impurities in it to make plastic. Timothy McViegh used Potassium Nitrate(fertilizer) as the base for that explosive mixture.

Why does is seem like we are trying to build a perpetual motion machine here? If the electricity to crack water, would produce enough Hydrogen and Oxygen to power an engine to produce that electricity, whatever the accelerant/catalyst, it would be a perpetual motion machine wouldn't it? Assuming that the burn could be made cool enough, why bother with the gas at all?

[SVOboy]

Can't make enough of the crap to run the engine by itself.

[Matt Timion]

Why does is seem like we are trying to build a perpetual motion machine here? If the electricity to crack water, would produce enough Hydrogen and Oxygen to power an engine to produce that electricity, whatever the accelerant/catalyst, it would be a perpetual motion machine wouldn't it? Assuming that the burn could be made cool enough, why bother with the gas at all?

you're exactly right on this. People have been trying to get energy out of water for a while now. The difference here is that it's just being used to assist the gasoline instead of replace it.

But then again free energy is that allusive desire of everyone.

[Compaq888]

You're right on the chemical stuff. Homeland security checks it and everything whenever you buy it. When I started asking the seller too many questions about KOH he got really suspecious.

I know where to buy everything now. KOH, the metal, the ABS, the fittings. Just waiting on results and it's a go.

[nathan]

KOH=Potassium Hydroxide

What products are potassium hydroxide????

Potash lye if you can find it. The other more common type of lye is sodium hydroxide.
You could make it.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_ashlye.html
The only thing I would worry about is that it would be too dirty and eventually the junk in it would cover up your electrodes causing them not to work.

[CruiseControl]

When I saw the guys wince as they opened the PVC container in the test unit, I realized that something was EXTREMELY noxious. Easy-Off oven cleaner uses Sodium Hydroxide, which has similar valences to Potassium Hydroxide, the Hydroxide ions are probably the stong culprit. On the side of the Easy-Off Oven Cleaner can they state specifically "Do not use on Aluminum, chrome, baked enamel." If the test car has aluminum heads, this could be an uninspectable problem. Especialy when the fact that the heads are not coated with lubricating oil. Instead they are left to stand up to the intense heat of combustion in the presence of a stong base, without protection. Also aren't fuel injector nozzels made of ceramics(enamel)? I know, it's always something, if it's not one thing it's another. Best of luck!

[Compaq888]

I'm not going to use Sodium Hydroxide, it's a little bit too strong. Sodium Hydroxide will erode my electrodes really fast. Instead I'm going to use Potassium Hydroxide. It's a lot easier on the electrodes.

All these chemicals are used to make soap. If you watch a movie named Fight Club with Brad Pitt and Edward Norton they show how to make soap and explain all the chemicals. One of the chemicals was vinegar which neutralizes the reaction.

[Compaq888]

Any Update from SVOboy or Flatlandtwo on the amps????

[JustMe]

Here is a variation on the electrolysis theme:

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/bfrhowto.htm

The electrodes are carbon rods from a battery.

[Gator Bait]

Wow! I really found a forum to get my work published on.
I own a 1992 f-250 6.7 liter Diesel pickup. My wife Drives an 98 Olds Cutlas with a 3100 v6 front wheel drive fourdoor.

When I started researching the newer Ideas I built a box that had two stainless 8 inch bolts 1/2 inch thick. I hid nothing, it looked the same outside as it looked inside. the bolt head was inside the box and had stainles nut as spacers between 1 and 1/2 inch washers as electrodes. I can get 8 washers inside the box, with 2 rubber washers inside and 1 outside to seal the drilled holes.

Ok,now we got 2 electrodes 1 above the other spaced about 1 inch between them so they dont hit and short out during bumps. My truck has 2 batteries hooked up for 12 volts and whatever amps they put out together. With the Neg clamped the the Neg on drivers side and the Pos clamped to Pos on the pasenger side bat. I wired the box so the pos wires came into the cab so as to clip the open pos wire to complete the circuit. This got 24.7 mpg on warmed up engine, I have driven on this for three weeks and the mpg's fell off as the baking soda I used to make electrolite cooked ans dirtied my stainles setup.

So I cleaned the stainless with a oxy brillo pad and added dual switch, stainless switch plate covers onto the 1/2 inch bolts, still using the nuts as spacers and still using the 1.5 inch washers to stabilize the plats from flexing. this produced 3-4 times the bubbles as before, I left the oxy bolt cleaned but unaltered, as I am mostly intrested in increasing the hydrogen output.

Well this set-up draws way more current, so I need to use my multi meter and find a circuit to put this on that only has 2-3-4 volts and 15-30 amps. Be carefull you dont burn your finger with clips and such, as two batts can weld in the right setup!!!

Now as to this being dangerous? Not really, DONT CREATE AN ARC INSIDE YOUR BOX AS IN A SHORTED BAT! In my kitchen sink I purposly lit the gas on a tupperware container, production pressure will pop open the lid! The dilivery hose removed, producing hydrogen, I lit the gases that reached the hole where the hose was and the gases lit and burnt off without and explosion!! With the hose hooked up I lit the end of the hose, and could hear the gasses burning and whisling as the oxygen was sucked into the hose. My container, was 6 inches by 9 inches, with a 1 inch space at the top for clearance on the hose or lid, as the hose is threaded into the lid so as not to loose any gasans to hold onto the lid in case of a flashback. Well it did blow the lid off!!! Every one watching as I showed off my creation to those people in attendance, laughed and said that was proof positive that the box was indeed producing a burnable fuel.

None hurt, injured or otherwise disapointed we to dream up other setups and I displayed the dual switchplates, I now need to find a lower voltage under my hood as the wires got rather warm, this thig acts as a capacitor!! You can hook it up inline on a circuit and it will pass a current to whatever is next inline and your hydrogen IS FREE BYPRODUCT!!!! So I dont want to here any bull about over unity, or not being enough elec available to produce enough hydrogen, this thing produces enough to to have doubled my mpg's on a large 6.7 liter diesel, So now I a greedy individual. I want to get better milage than what I'm now getting. I am willing to share my results with others, for free. what I'm doing I found for free on the net and refuse to pay anything as If I search on the net long enough I'll find a way to increase my results. Let's all work to share what we find and stop using therory and share results.

If we use a control box to put a signal thru the current to phase with the molecular frequency of water, and there are diagrams out there to do this very thing we just gotta buy some stuff a radioshack.

I want positive feedback from positive people.

[SVOboy]

Doubled the mpgs on a 6.7 liter engine? Holy snap. Do you have any pictures of you set up? And you said it only drew 15-30 amps? That's not much, I think most cars' alternators put out like 120ish. Glad to have you around.

[JAnderson]

I would have to agree that the electrolysis method is much more easy to control I.E. Stop and start the electrolysis process. Like everyone on this forum I have been researching H2 injection, Over unity devices and basically anything that will reduce my dependence on oil and electric companies. As an electronics person by trade and as a hobby I tend to lean to what I know best.
I came across a simple circuit to control the start, rate and stopping of the electrolysis process which is vital to having a safe vehicle and not one that leaves you with the uneasy feeling of not knowing if your car will explode when you next start it up.
The circuit only uses 5 active components and 16 passives. It controls the electrodes by sending a pulsed 12vdc output of varying duty cycle to start and control the rate of electrolysis. The input is either from the vehicles throttle position sensor or you can rig a potentiometer to the throttle linkage. Either will work, although the TPS will work best. Let me know if you'd like the schematic.

[Compaq888]

I would have to agree that the electrolysis method is much more easy to control I.E. Stop and start the electrolysis process. Like everyone on this forum I have been researching H2 injection, Over unity devices and basically anything that will reduce my dependence on oil and electric companies. As an electronics person by trade and as a hobby I tend to lean to what I know best.
I came across a simple circuit to control the start, rate and stopping of the electrolysis process which is vital to having a safe vehicle and not one leaves you with the uneasy feeling of not knowing if your car will explode when you next start it up.
The circuit only uses 5 active components and 16 passives. It controls the electrodes by sending a pulsed 12vdc output of varying duty cycle to start and control the rate of electrolysis. The input is either from the vehicles throttle position sensor or you can rig a potentiometer to the throttle linkage. Either will work, although the TPS will work best. Let me know if you'd like the schematic.

No offense but I have a system that can work at any rpm I want. And it can stop working at any rpm I want. Good luck with your generator. I can install it in my car but it won't help a car that has tranny problems.

[JAnderson]

None taken. I'm open to any ideas and genuinely seek to understand the issues with H2 generation and would like to know how you start, control and stop the process.

[Compaq888]

None taken. I'm open to any ideas and genuinely seek to understand the issues with H2 generation and would like to know how you start, control and stop the process.

MSD digital window switch. Read up on it. It connects to a rpm source and at special rpm it can either take away electricity or give electricity to the device you connect it to. BTW, you get to choose any rpm you want at the push of a button.

[JAnderson]

MSD digital window switch, sounds like an encoder or pulse position indicator. So what is the output of the switch? 0-12vdc?

[JAnderson]

[quote]I have been scouring the internet devouring whatever info I can on OU, fuelless motors, H2 injection and would like to get more info on what you've done. Double the mileage on your diesel? I read that H2 injection on diesels will be the wave of the future but if you've done it then my hats off to you. I'm an electronics guy so I opt for the electronically controlled electrolysis methods over chemical. Just seems much safer to me. I'd be willing to share whatever info I have if you will share on your current system.

Jerry

[Compaq888]

MSD digital window switch, sounds like an encoder or pulse position indicator. So what is the output of the switch? 0-12vdc?


Basically it takes away the ground or gives ground at any rpm.

[rh77]

I have a series of questions:

* So will running an H2 setup oxidize vital components of the engine?
* Is anyone running a hydrogen setup, and what is the actual figures of mileage increase?
* Since the hydrogen creates a stronger explosion, wouldn't the compression ratio go up, and if the engine isn't equipped properly, would the head gasket blow?
* Why aren't more people like us using it?

RH77

[Compaq888]

I have a series of questions:

* So will running an H2 setup oxidize vital components of the engine?
NO, I asked a chemist this.
* Is anyone running a hydrogen setup, and what is the actual figures of mileage increase?
No, if they are their results are either crazy or something keeps breaking on their car.
* Since the hydrogen creates a stronger explosion, wouldn't the compression ratio go up, and if the engine isn't equipped properly, would the head gasket blow?
No, because the hydrogen isn't introduced at high pressure like nitrous. There is only a little amount of hydrogen.
* Why aren't more people like us using it?
Because there are no amp results and I work too many hours to go and find/buy a amp meter.

RH77


Fixed it for you.

[Matt Timion]

Jerry, welcome to tbe board.

I have been interested in the h2 generator only as a bystander for some time. I do not intend on installing a hydrogren generator until I see some concrete results backed with a good statistical analysis. having an extra electronics guy on board though is a bonus for a number of reasons. Not only can you help with the R&D of the h2 generator, but you can hopefully help with other projects that we all might have (making a pulse and glide cruise control, for example).

Compaq888, you need to realize that other people in the world are in fact using a hydrogen generator. Not everyone on the internet is waiting for SVOBoy to get you AMP results.

The lack of reliable results from many H2 generators does not mean that their results are either crazy or that something keeps breaking on their cars. It sounds to me that you already have your conclusion and you are only seeking out data that supports it. I think it means that the system itself needs refining, not that every person who has reported results using an h2 generator drives a lemon and therefore cannot be trusted.

The fact is that the jury is still out on these things.

rh77 most people don't use these systems because the ones that "work" cost around $500. You have to be a very hard core enthusiast to spend $500 on something that might not even work. I'd personally rather spend the money on new apolstry for my n600. At least I can see the results for that.

I would be more than happy to assist any way I can in the production of a h2 generator. Maybe one day I'll even install one.

[JAnderson]

[/quote]
Matt,
Thanks very much for the nice welcome. =) I'm convinced H2 is the way to go especially with what's going on in area of diesel engines. I'm also convinced based on many hours of research is that chemical separation of H2 from H20 is not easily controllable and just outright dangerous. Electrode material and electrolyte used is really the key to fine tuning this technology along with a good circuit for controlling the signal (whether outright brute amperage or some other elegant signal). I will be building the electrolysis controller in the next two weeks and will test it at work. I will probably just buy a throttle position sensor and rig it up as my input. Safety is big in my book so I will at minimum use a backflash arrestor once I actually start testing the electrolyzer itself.
I also agree that there is a lot of information and misinformation and one needs be careful.

[Matt Timion]

Matt,
Thanks very much for the nice welcome. =) I'm convinced H2 is the way to go especially with what's going on in area of diesel engines. I'm also convinced based on many hours of research is that chemical separation of H2 from H20 is not easily controllable and just outright dangerous. Electrode material and electrolyte used is really the key to fine tuning this technology along with a good circuit for controlling the signal (whether outright brute amperage or some other elegant signal). I will be building the electrolysis controller in the next two weeks and will test it at work. I will probably just buy a throttle position sensor and rig it up as my input. Safety is big in my book so I will at minimum use a backflash arrestor once I actually start testing the electrolyzer itself.
I also agree that there is a lot of information and misinformation and one needs be careful.

If you'd like I can send you a few TPS sensors. I frequent the junkyards and one of them has to work for you. at the very least it could save you a little money.

If you're interested let me know which brand you'd like it to be (honda, nissan, ford, etc.) and I'll do my best to help.

[Capcom]

My car has a hydrogen generator installed for 3 months but it does not provide better mpg nor lowers it.

It draws its electricity from battery and produces too little hydrogen at constant rate.

I was thinking about building a similar device too but when i learned that there already exists someone that builds and sells it in Ankara i decided to buy it.

After discovering that it does not provide better mpg nor lowers i didnt want to take it out of the car, i will just keep it working.
Part of the reason is i just love these kinds of gadgets and if i had to build it myself i would probably spend much more effort and time. I payed 230$ = 325 New Turkish Liras. Which is somewhat reasonable price for me for this kinds of bargains... But no more...

For the product:
The shop that produces the unit installs it. And this is its webpage: http://www.ekomax.com/urun.htm (click on the thumbnails to have an idea about the device)

[JAnderson]

Capcom,
I'll take a look at the ekomax website, but there are several factors which could inhibit the effectiveness of the H2 generator. O2 sensor, MAP sensor, and the intake air sensor just to name a few. You may just need to trick the 02 sensor into getting your engine to run leaner.

[Capcom]

JAnderson: I agree sir.

In fact i built and tested an electronic circuit to trick oxygen sensors signals.. and it provided %5 percent better economy.
More details here:

http://www.gassavers.org/forum_topic/tricking_your_02_sensor.html

http://www.gassavers.org/forum_topic/how_dangerous_is_lean_burn.html


But i dont think its related with my hydrogen generator (Ekomax) as it produces too little hydrogen.. Maybe another type of h2 generator equiped car would benefit more..

[JAnderson]

Capcom,
I went to the website but couldn't get much out of it since it was all in your native language. Do you know how much current the generator uses? How do they vary the amount of H2 generated? Where is the H2 inserted?

[Capcom]

JAnderson:
I couldnt measure the how much current it draws.
I guess it draws very little current and it produces hydrogen+oxygen at constant rate. It does not vary the amount of H2 generated.

I guess it takes approximately 3000km = 1875miles of driving to consume half a liter of electrolytic water.

It has a seperate half a liter electrolyte bottle reservoir.
When the water (the electrolytic fluid) is consumed in electrolysis chamber the electrolysis unit draws water from the reservoir by vacuum.. And the resulting hydrogen+oxygen produced is injected through a small plastic pipe to the intake manifold from one of the engine vacuum lines.
By the way the electrolytic fluid is green in color. They said they did this in order not to people accidentally drink it. I asked what they use for the substance that they put in water in order to make it electrolytic but they didnt tell me.

The device is connected to fuel pump relay so when the engine and the fuel pump starts it also starts and when engine shut off it shuts down also.

[JAnderson]

JAnderson:
I couldnt measure the how much current it draws.
I guess it draws very little current and it produces hydrogen+oxygen at constant rate. It does not vary the amount of H2 generated.

I guess it takes approximately 3000km = 1875miles of driving to consume half a liter of electrolytic water.

It has a seperate half a liter electrolyte bottle reservoir.
When the water (the electrolytic fluid) is consumed in electrolysis chamber the electrolysis unit draws water from the reservoir by vacuum.. And the resulting hydrogen+oxygen produced is injected through a small plastic pipe to the intake manifold from one of the engine vacuum lines.
By the way the electrolytic fluid is green in color. They said they did this in order not to people accidentally drink it. I asked what they use for the substance that they put in water in order to make it electrolytic but they didnt tell me.

The device is connected to fuel pump relay so when the engine and the fuel pump starts it also starts and when engine shut off it shuts down also.

It does not vary the amount of H2 generated based on throttle position or some other method? If it doesn't vary the amount of h2 and it takes 3000km to consume a half litre of fluid, then yeah I'd say it's not producing near what you need to affect your horsepower or mileage as a properly tuned system will do both.

[Capcom]

Yes, That's correct.

[JAnderson]

Yes, That's correct.

Do you know what the electrode material is and how far they are apart? What are the dimensions of the electrolysis chamber? On what type of engine is this used on I.E 4/6/8 cylinder, fuel injection?

[Capcom]

Yes, That's correct.

Do you know what the electrode material is and how far they are apart? What are the dimensions of the electrolysis chamber? On what type of engine is this used on I.E 4/6/8 cylinder, fuel injection?

I couldn't ask what material for electrode is used also. I guess its probably stainless steel.
Electrolyses chamber is approximately 2 inches wide, 2 inches long and 3 inches deep. And i saw an "open" electrolysis chamber in the shop and if my memory serves me well it had 5 - 6 plates of electrodes in it.
My car is a modern fuel injected GM engine built in '97, having 4 cylinders, 2000cc displacement, 136HP and 1350kg.
(More detail about my car: http://www.gassavers.org/forum_topic/hello_from_turkey_ankara.html )

But mine is the smaller one that operates at 12 volts. They have a somewhat bigger electrolysis chamber model designed for 24 volts, Heavy Truck, Bus use.
They install the 12 volt smaller version to all type of cars whether its fuel injected, carburated or diesel...

[JAnderson]

Yes, That's correct.

Do you know what the electrode material is and how far they are apart? What are the dimensions of the electrolysis chamber? On what type of engine is this used on I.E 4/6/8 cylinder, fuel injection?

I couldn't ask what material for electrode is used also. I guess its probably stainless steel.
Electrolyses chamber is approximately 2 inches wide, 2 inches long and 3 inches deep. And i saw an "open" electrolysis chamber in the shop and if my memory serves me well it had 5 - 6 plates of electrodes in it.
My car is a modern fuel injected GM engine built in '97, having 4 cylinders, 2000cc displacement, 136HP and 1350kg.
(More detail about my car: http://www.gassavers.org/forum_topic/hello_from_turkey_ankara.html )

But mine is the smaller one that operates at 12 volts. They have a somewhat bigger electrolysis chamber model designed for 24 volts, Heavy Truck, Bus use.
They install the 12 volt smaller version to all type of cars whether its fuel injected, carburated or diesel...

That's extremely small! Is it a cylindrical chamber? Most chambers are 4"-6" in diameter and 8"-12" long. No wonder there is not enough H2. What are their claims of performance?

[rh77]

rh77 most people don't use these systems because the ones that "work" cost around $500. You have to be a very hard core enthusiast to spend $500 on something that might not even work. I'd personally rather spend the money on new apolstry for my n600. At least I can see the results for that.

I would be more than happy to assist any way I can in the production of a h2 generator. Maybe one day I'll even install one.

Thanks Matt and Compaq888. I'm really struggling with the idea, and haven't gotten the guts (or money) to try it yet.

RH77

[Capcom]

That's extremely small! Is it a cylindrical chamber? Most chambers are 4"-6" in diameter and 8"-12" long. No wonder there is not enough H2. What are their claims of performance?



It's rectengular. They claim %15 to %35 reduction in fuel consumption.

I was expecting %3-5 reduction so i made two tests in highway with cruise control set to 110kmh = 68mph on a 60km = 37miles road.

In first test, i switched the device OFF by pulling its "fuse" and took note the total fuel consumption. And right after this test i ran the "same" road again at "same" speed while the device was ON. Even the outside temperature was same, windows were closed and in both tests there was no traffic at all.
After the end of second test the fuel consumption measures were same due to "trip computer" of my car.

[Compaq888]

rh77 most people don't use these systems because the ones that "work" cost around $500. You have to be a very hard core enthusiast to spend $500 on something that might not even work. I'd personally rather spend the money on new apolstry for my n600. At least I can see the results for that.

I would be more than happy to assist any way I can in the production of a h2 generator. Maybe one day I'll even install one.

Thanks Matt and Compaq888. I'm really struggling with the idea, and haven't gotten the guts (or money) to try it yet.

RH77


Don't worry when I get the time I'll build one. I work so many hours now that they don't even give me 8 hours of sleep. I ditched work yesterday so I could get some sleep.

[JAnderson]

Interesting stuff on electrolysis. Check out their project called Stardrive. http://www.stardrivedevice.com/electrolysis.html

[Neontoken]

Flatland,

Lead would make an excelent electrode. It shouldn't corode too badly. You have to remember you're basicaly creating a battery with a weak electrolyte. I am doing some experiments of my own. I would liek to use stainless steel plates for electrodes, but can not find any sources for the metal. Any ideas. Currently I am using zinc plated steel carriage bolts. I have to replace them about every other time I fill the tank with water. Bolts are cheap about 98c each, so it's not too expensive, just a pain to have to replace them so often. I am using baking soda as an electrolyte, (seems to produce nearly as much H as acid, but safer to handle.)

[Neontoken]

Flatland,

(See earlier reply to post) I would not be so eager to strengthen the electrolye using lye. Once you go overboard with the electrolyte solution, you run the risk of creating too much heat during the electrolsis proces, and hence a greater risk of explosion. (The same sort of reaction that you get when you overcharge an older lead acid battery.)

[JanGeo]

Are you guys looking for perpetual energy here or what - without reading all 6 pages of posts . . . the best electrode material is platinum and the best electrolite is Sufuric Acid. Get some old spark plugs for the electrodes - tungston is a very high temperature metal thats why they weld with it and use it in light bulb filaments DUH! What you need is something that is corrosion resistant and will not react with oxygen . . . Platinum!! Never heard of baking soda for electrolite however - guess I can learn a few things. The energy to make the gas separate - and you want to burn both by the way - need oxygen for the H2 to burn with - but the only gain I can see is if you have a fuel problem with the gasoline vaporization which we already take care of with the additives. Better to make it at home of a wind generator and bottle it up in tanks and burn it in the car later.

FYI there was a lot of work down in Europe last year on heating the fuel - both gas and diesel - at the injectors with exhost manifold heat to better vaporize the fuel when it is injected. Seems to get much better power and economy. It works for oil furnaces in your home too.

[JanGeo]

Anyone try adding a little propane into the engine and let the oxygen sensor compensate - sort of a multifuel setup??

[JAnderson]

Are you guys looking for perpetual energy here or what - without reading all 6 pages of posts . . . the best electrode material is platinum and the best electrolite is Su