Honda weighs safety cuts to qualify for CDN efficiency rebate - Gas Savers

MetroMPG · 04-06-2007, 12:28 PM

Now it's Honda's turn to have a high-ranking official spout inanities in the press.

A vice-president of Honda Canada was quoted today responding to the fuel efficiency rebate here which the Fit barely missed qualifying for, while the Toyota Yaris snuck in:

Quote:

WINDSOR - Honda Canada Inc. is "seriously considering" stripping some life-saving safety equipment out of the smallest car it sells in Canada to meet new federal fuel efficiency ratings.

The Honda Fit does not qualify for a $1,000 rebate under the new rules, announced in the federal budget two weeks ago, while the Yaris, produced by arch-rival Toyota, does.

The difference can be explained by the extra air bags, side curtains, antilock brakes and other equipment the Fit has, but the Yaris does not, says Jim Miller, executive vice-president of Honda Canada.

"If we stripped all that out, it would qualify," Mr. Miller told a University of Windsor marketing class.

"But $1,000 for a human life?"

The Fit consumes 6.5 litres of fuel every 100 kilometres, which is the cutoff point for the new federal incentive to buy fuel-efficient cars. The Yaris consumes 6.3 l/km and qualifies for the money.

Most of the subcompact cars on the Canadian market, which account for more than half of all sales in this country, achieve mileage similar to the Fit.
Honda, which prides itself on the tiny Fit's five-star U.S. crash safety rating, doesn't want to trade safety for sales, Mr. Miller told about 80 students and area automotive business people.

But it might have to.

"Do we give that up? I don't think from a corporate social responsibility point of view we should," he said of the car's five-star rating.

"But obviously, to remain competitive, we're giving it serious consideration." He said Honda can't afford to walk away from as many as 20,000 units of sales in a crucial segment of the business, handing them to its most important competitor. Honda doesn't lose many sales to the Detroit Big Three, mainly to Toyota, he said.

"It's going to have an impact" on Honda's sales, he said of the federal incentives, although it is too early to tell how much.

Mr. Miller said the federal government's new green levies, or "feebates" as some have called its new taxes and rebates, may be too arbitrary to have the desired environmental effects on the marketplace.

Toyota, whose customers some analysts say stand to pick up the bulk of rebates from the new federal program, is the only automaker that has wholeheartedly endorsed the budget announcement.

Stephen Beatty, managing director of Toyota Canada Inc., told the same University of Windsor class on Monday that the company was delighted with the federal budget provisions.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...4-8160fb9c9fc8

DUH. How about a slightly taller final drive, and leave the airbags in? Or a more efficient engine, which is available in every other markets outside of North America?

This reads like political posturing more than anything else.

---

Relevant to discussion in these threads:

MetroMPG · 04-06-2007, 12:33 PM

If Honda Canada were "seriously considering" offering less safety equipment in a special Fit model that would make it eligible for the efficiency rebate, it would be spinning it positively in marketing-speak. It would NOT be sending an executive v.p. out to publicly question the "value of a human life" in the mass media.

cfg83 · 04-06-2007, 12:47 PM

Matt -

This "Fits" your reduced safety argument. What's your take?

I don't think there is a safety compromise argument that has legs here. If they barely missed the qualification, they can tweak the drivetrain to "Fit" the Canadian specs and offer it as the "Rebate Fit".

YF(it)MV

CarloSW2

omgwtfbyobbq · 04-06-2007, 01:11 PM

Or, downsize the engine and drop in a taller OD gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83

YF(it)MV

MetroMPG · 04-06-2007, 02:07 PM

And then they could market it as "the safest small car available that qualifies for a rebate, blah, blah".

I stick to my previous interpretation: they're just being tools.

Bill in Houston · 04-06-2007, 02:26 PM

I think it's a poke at the Yaris. "You can drive our nice safe car, or you can drive that tin can Yaris. I guess if your life is only worth a thousand bucks, you could choose that piece of junk."

MetroMPG · 04-06-2007, 02:29 PM

I think you're right - it's both a poke at the Yaris and the feds.

I'm sure Honda would love nothing more than to see a headline, or a letter to the editor saying "Federal efficiency rebate program will lead to more road deaths."

Peakster · 04-06-2007, 02:31 PM

Oh give me a break! As if stripping life saving equipment is the only way to increase a car's EPA performance

.

BeeUU · 04-06-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peakster

Oh give me a break! As if stripping life saving equipment is the only way to increase a car's EPA performance

.

No, but it is the least expensive!!! An no extra testing of the expensive bits for recertification like a different engine would require.

This probably is a publicity stunt as well. Cheap advertisement for the cars safety and fuel mileage in a way alot of people will remember, both for the current car and the future "striped down" model.

This might be a smart move, rather than make statements of your companies inability to meet regulations (can you imagine how the entire engineering/research/tech staff are feeling about such a stupid statement?) or make cost estimates with no basis to scare people.

cfg83 · 04-06-2007, 04:10 PM

omgwtfbyobbq -

Quote:

Originally Posted by omgwtfbyobbq

Or, downsize the engine and drop in a taller OD gear.

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!

The drivetrain already exists in other countries, right? Stop complaining and offer it to the Canadian public.

CarloSW2

omgwtfbyobbq · 04-06-2007, 06:23 PM

But what will they do w/ all those parts that aren't FE friendly? Taking a loss because of shortsighted policy isn't acceptable in the automotive world. Gotta wiggle their way out...

kickflipjr · 04-06-2007, 09:59 PM

That is such a small difference in gas millage that they have plenty of options.

I like the taller final gear option best. But small aerodynamics improvements would be enough too.

I wouldn't want to take out the safety features because they could get bad press for Honda.

rh77 · 04-06-2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I stick to my previous interpretation: they're just being tools.

Sounds like they need to do some re-tooling. Trying to fool the Canadian Public -- that the difference between the two vehicles are only safety items -- is a complete smack in the face.

Kia seems to make money this deal without sacrificing any safety item (plus a better warranty).

However, as I think about it, it's cheaper for a company to remove a bunch of items from a product than add something new/different to something already in a market (when they miss the mark on a Government Rebate). Conversely, why the heck don't they just import the smaller engine and make the bigger engine an OPTION? North America always gets the bloated engine mandate.

You know my feelings on making airbags, ABS, and stability control standard

Anyways, Statistics:
The UK: 1.4L makes 82 hp, 0-60 in 12-seconds, and would easily make the rebate.
North America: 1.5L / generates 109 hp / about 9 or 10-seconds to 60, and misses the mark.

So a small reduction in displacement would do it, and the powertrains are a direct "FIT".

Randy · 04-06-2007, 11:17 PM

That is pretty sad. I never thought of Honda as saintly, but they're wallowing with GM on this one.

The engine that everybody outside of North America gets is pretty sweet... a two-valve, two-plug 1.3L inline 4. Presumably a 'wedge' head, at least as famously efficient as the 4-valve 'pent-roof'. The specs from the Japanese web site: 24 km/l, 86 hp @ 5600 rpm, and 119 N-m @ 2800 rpm. The 4-valve VTEC both Canada and the US are stuck with gets 20.4 km/l, 110 hp @ 5800 rpm, and 143 N-m @ 4800 rpm. This is like a CX vs EX civic, but they don't give you that choice any more. You must take the shiny one, which makes it all the less attractive.

To be honest, I was really looking forward to the Fit once I heard it was coming here, to the point of buying one new. But then they announced the single-engine sub-40 highway mileage, and that was that. There's supposed to be a mileage version someday, but I'm not holding my breath.

SVOboy · 04-06-2007, 11:45 PM

I'm still not sure why they didn't put an r15 or something such in there. I guess that would mean building a new engine though,

Matt Timion · 04-07-2007, 12:02 AM

as much as I love honda, and my Fit, this is nothing more than political posturing by Honda Canada.

let's look at the facts here.

The Fit is NOT the Yaris... the Fit is a four door, and the Yaris is an optional four door. In other words, it comes in a two door version. If I had to guess, the two door version is the one that met the requirements for the rebates.

Secondly, the Fit in Japan (known as the Jazz) has an optional 1.3L engine that gets considerably better gas mileage than the 1.5L engine here. An easy solution would be to offer this engine in Canada, the US, etc. Honda could easily make up a marketing campaign saying that their 1.3L engine gets better mileage and more power than Toyota's 1.5L... oh, and it's safer too.

What Honda continues to forget is that people who buy vehicles like the Fit don't care about horsepower. They care about utility, gas mileage, emissions, etc. If they wanted horsepower they would buy an integra, or a dodge charger. I'd be willing to bet that if the 1.3L version of the Fit were offered in America/Canada that it would sell just as well as the other models.

Oh, here's another option. In my perfect society where people actually CHOOSE their own level of safety, Honda would offer a sidecurtain airbag/ABS upgrade to any vehicle. The base model would not have it.

rh77 · 04-07-2007, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Timion

What Honda continues to forget is that people who buy vehicles like the Fit don't care about horsepower. They care about utility, gas mileage, emissions, etc.

Precisely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Timion

If they wanted horsepower they would buy an integra, or a dodge charger.

ouch, in the same sentence...

Matt Timion · 04-07-2007, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rh77

ouch, in the same sentence...

Eh, I think you're right. Putting an integra and a dodge charger in the same category isn't really accurate.

The Charger is a giant monster of a vehicle with a V6 (optional Hemi) powerplant.

The Integra, on the other hand, is still a 4 cylinder.

When we rented the Charger last year I did notice that it got about 30mpg on the highway. I was surprised to say the least.

SVOboy · 04-07-2007, 10:03 AM

You just need to convert the teg to stick, rick, I've heard of people getting in the 40s mixed with stick tegs,

Anyway, matt is right. I think marketing the 1.2 with the CVT would be a good move on honda's part. It would cost more, but get much better mileage, and they could say something about putting the technology that makes hybrids great into the hands of average people.

cfg83 · 04-07-2007, 02:19 PM

RH77 -

The "new" Integra, the RSX, still got 26 MPG city. Pretty great for a performance coupe. I think the Acuras may get the best of the luxury car MPG (if you don't count the Toyota hybrids).

CarloSW2

cfg83 · 04-07-2007, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy

...

To be honest, I was really looking forward to the Fit once I heard it was coming here, to the point of buying one new. But then they announced the single-engine sub-40 highway mileage, and that was that. There's supposed to be a mileage version someday, but I'm not holding my breath.

I agree. It should be at least 35/45 (Old School) MPG. There is no excuse.

Same with the Civic coupe. One drivetrain for the lower end models, with the HX model gone missing to preserve Hybrid Civic sales. Boo!

CarloSW2

cfg83 · 04-07-2007, 02:40 PM

Matt -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Timion

...

Oh, here's another option. In my perfect society where people actually CHOOSE their own level of safety, Honda would offer a sidecurtain airbag/ABS upgrade to any vehicle. The base model would not have it.

Agreed, but this is another "defect" in the Honda (and Japanese?) marketing model. You get simple all-or-nothing package options. This makes the manufacturing process easier and lowers UMC, but it forces me to buy options I do not want. This is something that (at least for now!) I can get from Detroit.

Example : If I get a Toyota Matrix, I have sets of packages I can get if I want ABS and safety stuff. With the Pontiac Vibe (same drivetrain), there are still packages, but I can seperately order ABS, safety stuff, and *still* have good 'ol fashioned "Pepperidge Farm" crank down windows. Yes it may cost more, but I will get the "simple car" that I want.

CarloSW2

rh77 · 04-07-2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Timion

Eh, I think you're right. Putting an integra and a dodge charger in the same category isn't really accurate.

The Charger is a giant monster of a vehicle with a V6 (optional Hemi) powerplant.

The Integra, on the other hand, is still a 4 cylinder.

When we rented the Charger last year I did notice that it got about 30mpg on the highway. I was surprised to say the least.

I'm just messin' with ya -- I know the 'Teg isn't designed for FE, and neither is the Charger. The RSX wasn't better either. But...you have to give Acura credit for helping change the American mindset of what a "luxury" car is -- instead of a Big V-8 land yacht, Honda developed a brand with a smaller footprint and smaller, more fuel efficient engines -- however, not the most efficient today, I will agree.

Now Ben, where's the challenge in getting great FE in a manual

SVOboy · 04-07-2007, 04:46 PM

Now Rick, the challenge is in tempting yourself not to drive it too fast (or not all all!)