moist air causing cough in Cvic VX when engine cold - Gas Savers

1993CivicVX · 05-25-2011, 09:05 AM

been real wet last few days and the car coughs or misfires or something like a severe lean burn stumble. This only happens when the engine is cold and its wet out. Didn't happen this morning and it was dry out. friend tells me it could be I need new spark plug wires.

benfrogg · 05-25-2011, 10:00 AM

Open the hood with the car running in pitch black light somewhere you can find it. Spray the wires with a small spray bottle filled with water. Spray the cap too. Arching will be obvious and if not, the car will start running crappier. You might just need a cap (good idea to replace both unless one has been done recently) and you wouldn't see arching as much there; it would just run crappy when you spray it.
B

Fetch · 05-25-2011, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benfrogg

Open the hood with the car running in pitch black light somewhere you can find it. Spray the wires with a small spray bottle filled with water. Spray the cap too. Arching will be obvious and if not, the car will start running crappier. You might just need a cap (good idea to replace both unless one has been done recently) and you wouldn't see arching as much there; it would just run crappy when you spray it.
B

<< What he said.

I had a couple of friends in college that had trouble with their late older Hondas not wanting to start when it was damp. Both times, it was the distributor cap.

VetteOwner · 05-25-2011, 06:01 PM

yup happens to all cars... no real way to prevent it besides buy quality parts even then they all wear out...

Ford Man · 05-26-2011, 12:09 PM

It could also be condensation forming inside the distributor cap from drastic swings in temperature and humidity levels. WD-40 sprayed to the inside of the distributor cap is said to resolve moisture problems inside the cap.

kamesama980 · 05-27-2011, 06:51 PM

My trick did the same thing. any time there was moisture condensation out it would run fine at idle and up to slight loads but anything over about 10% load (by opening the throttle or less throttle at higher revs) and it'd miss like crazy and fall on it's face. one day I was fiddling with it under those conditions and grabbed the distributor to adjust timing for whatever reason and zap zap zap. new plugs, wires, and cap and no more problems since.

1993CivicVX · 06-10-2011, 12:07 PM

Thanks guys!

1993CivicVX · 08-11-2011, 06:25 PM

So I brought it to a mechanic (I know, I know, I'm lame) and he replaced the spark plugs and distributor cap. THis fixed the problem, almost completely, but then I noticed it a litlte ..and then it started getting worse a day later even, and got really bad about 2-4 weeks later and then two days ago got so bad, that the hesitation and cough started becoming a more steady loss of power (it getting real bad happeend over the course of about 3 days and then it just became real flooded-like.. to the point where you gave it gas and nothing happened and then it would just stall out and struggle to idle (drinking gas?) and then die when I gave it gas. Brought it to diff mechanic near where the car died and he replaced the distributor and the spark plug wires i bought but never installed. Car runs great now, but there was a minor cough (hopefully just a lean burn thing or something..) otherwise it's running great now and has lots of power. Just posting this as a follow up.
cheers,

add|ct · 08-11-2011, 10:24 PM

Interesting experience. I'm interested in finding out how easy the fuel pump is to replace on the VX ahead of time prior to a stall. Not sure how to check PSI on the fuel system while the vehicle is running, but I'd imagine if it's within spec I shouldn't have to replace it. Perhaps only the sock?

Anyway, glad you got your parts on that you purchased. What brand would you mind?

1993CivicVX · 08-11-2011, 10:46 PM

the only part I purchased were the spark plug wires, which were Bosch. Supposedly they are better than the other brands that Autozone sells for other civic models, but the VX only sells the higher end ones (which is expected).

Btw, my car just had a major failure. It hesitated (no response from gas pedal) and then stalled... wouldn't bump start. Came to a stop. Wouldn't regular start, either, and would do a sad whir--almost turn over and stall. Then, somehow, it started, but ran poorly and I hazard lighted my way back to my apartment (I had only driven 800 feet). I had just driven 3 miles before that and parked turned my car off. 2 minutes later drove away with two passengers and it did this hesitation thing before the whole stall thing i just explained. Furthermore, the hesitation was (i think) identical to the type of hesitation my car experiences right after I bump start it when it's very low on fuel. When my car is low on fuel, and you bump start it, it doesn't respond to the gas pedal (it just totally does not respond at all, but does not stall). If you wait 2 seconds in neutral and then engage gear and give it gas, it will go. It has only ever done this when very low on gas when bump starting. It's always been directly proportional to how low my gas tank is (in a way it serves as a low gas light, since the VX doesn't have a gas light).

BTW, I do lots of engine off coasting. I do it when my engine is cold, too. I wonder if I have put too much strain on too many systems of my car by doing this so much that I've damaged a bunch of parts of my car? (fuel pump, distributor, coil, cap, etc).

Anymore input is really welcome. I think my car needs a fuel pump, too????

add|ct · 08-12-2011, 01:16 AM

When you turn your key forward can you hear the fuel pump prime at all?

There is a way to check for fuel pressure to the fuel rail leading into the injectors(post filtration), there is a small diaphragm that uses intake manifold vacuum and looks like a miniature EGR.

Someone else recently had this issue over on the BITOG site(car dies while on the highway, fuel pump was the culprit), you could try kicking at the area where the fuel pump is while attempting to start it. Should be under the back passenger seat area from inside the cabin. See if that helps while attempting to start. I don't know how to properly test for fuel pressure, and you can verify the batter is still good, right?

You could try loosening the top nut on the line out of the fuel filter just enough to cause a leak for testing purposes(place a shop rag underneath this of course to help catch any excessive fuel spray...turn the key forward to prime. Any gas? I don't know about safely starting it(attempting) this way though.

Other things that come to mind with this video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY_Gn...eature=related

**theholycow** · 08-12-2011, 04:31 AM

Yes, an impact from a rock or hammer is a common way to get a fuel pump to cooperate enough to get home.

The reason it failed isn't engine-off coasting, it's because you run your tank too low. All those times that it gave you the symptom while low on fuel, it was probably lacking lubrication and probably overheating. In-tank fuel pumps depend on having a decent fuel level to keep them in good condition.

1993CivicVX · 08-12-2011, 06:08 AM

This time it happened with plenty of fuel in the tank. But I do run on fumes a lot.

1993CivicVX · 08-12-2011, 06:43 AM

addict: it has fresh batter (just made few weeks ago--it makes excellent pancakes [ie battery is good and recently replaced

]).

Fetch · 08-12-2011, 09:38 AM

Have you looked at the head? My doctor always has me turn my head when I cough. Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.

add|ct · 08-12-2011, 11:31 AM

I wonder how easy it is to replace the fuel pump on these cars?

Someone mentioned in another forum they removed some panel from inside the car?

I thought the tank had to be dropped(at least if you wanted to replace the sock?).

Bosch has a relatively cheap fuel pump priced less than then Denso units(first time fit but they market as 'never worry about doing the job twice'. I figure as regards the fuel pump that Bosch would be solid? Definitely replace the sock anyway right?

PS: It was 3 AM and I must(have been) hungry!

benfrogg · 08-12-2011, 03:26 PM

VX fuel pumps are relatively easy to replace. Remove the rear seat (lower portion). Remove 3 or 4 phillips screws in the cover under seat. Feed the wires through the rubber grommet so the cover can slide back. Remove the high pressure line first because it is easier to break free before unbolting the pump. Remove the low pressure return hose. Unplug the harness to the pump; you may have to remove the harness to the sender as well for access. Remove all of the 10mm nuts around the opening. Carefully orient the pump so the feed/sock can come out. You have to squeeze the sock a bit to get it out/ the new in. Keep a rag handy and a bucket to put the old pump in or else your car will smell like gas for a while.
Install is reverse of the removal.
B

**theholycow** · 08-12-2011, 05:14 PM

Don't forget to relieve system pressure before you start. Pull a fuse or relay for the fuel pump and try to start the car a few times.

Ford Man · 08-12-2011, 07:32 PM

I know from reading the previous posts you think it's related to the fuel pump/fuel system, but have you checked the timing belt for damage? Maybe the timing jumped a tooth. Might be a good thing to check, I think you have an interference engine and a broken belt would be catastrophic.

add|ct · 08-12-2011, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford Man

I know from reading the previous posts you think it's related to the fuel pump/fuel system, but have you checked the timing belt for damage? Maybe the timing jumped a tooth. Might be a good thing to check, I think you have an interference engine and a broken belt would be catastrophic.

Especially with how many times he's tried to start it here recently...

Worth a look if the Valve Cover can be pulled and the Upper Timing Belt cover removed.

By the way, nice write-up ben and another +1 to cow for the relieving of pressure process, removing the gas cap from outside can help with this after relieving the pressure via the fuse/relay pulled method, with subsequent attempted start ups, though it may not actually crank or pressure be much of an issue if the pump is truly dead in the water by now, still a good precaution.

I'd be wearing safety glasses and those safety disposable gloves when initially removing the hoses, etc.

PS: What is the difference between a fuel pump and fuel sender? Also, did anyone check out the guy with the CRX that had the main relay that needed soldering? I also heard some of the ECU's in these cars may need a similar re-solder at certain points on the ECU over time, instead of trying to just buy a replacement ECU.

benfrogg · 08-13-2011, 01:50 AM

Add-
The sender is the float operated electrical signal that feeds the fuel gauge on the dash. Maybe my word sender isn't right for this purpose?

I read the one about the crx. In fact, my VX had the same need for resolidering the main relay a while back. The reason I didn't suggest it is the symptoms are:
No start after hot or cold, more likely after hot. No sputtering or coughing, just all out crank but no fire dead. When it gets bad, it starts happening when driving down the road; the car will die just for a split second, then catch. Then it dies for a second or two, and gets worse as time goes on.

1993civicvx-
I agree, worth a look on the timing belt. It's not hard to see, pull the 5 valve cover bolts and the two bolts on the plastic cover, spin the harmonic balancer (trans in neutral) and watch to make sure there are no missing teeth in the belt. If the belt is excessively loose, replace tensioner or water pump, reset timing. Indeed, the VX is an interference engine and would see head/valve damage at the least if the belt isn't right on the money.

Before replacing the pump, consider the FPR. There's a test in the haynes manual, I think it involves pulling the vacuum line while running (or trying to run, in the current case) and see if gas is present. If so, replace the FPR as the diaphragm has a leak internally. If not, try pulling a vacuum with your mouth (or vacuum pump, or whatever). Usually this is done on a car that runs, but the result is the same. If the idle (or almost idle) rises, the FPR is likely working correctly.

Test the harness at the fuel pump. Hondas are known for having cruddy grounds near the fuel pump.

Make certain you hear that pump priming for 2 seconds at key "on." If not, listen for 2 clicks under the dash just after key "on." If no clicks, resolider/replace the main relay. If no pump priming sound, check harness/replace pump/inspect fuses for intermittent failure.

My vote is fuel pump. It sounds to me like the car has been fuel starved for a while; it just got better for a bit when it got new ignition parts and was burning what little fuel it was getting more efficiently.

When was the last time the timing belt was replaced? Was the tensioner/water pump done then?
When was the last time the fuel filter was replaced? A severely clogged filter could cause similar symptoms.

HC-
Good advice on relieving pressure. I don't honestly remember if the VX keeps system pressure after shut down.... I presume it does. IIRC, it wasn't a lot of pressure and didn't make a big spray or anything when I pulled the high pressure line.....

Good luck!
B

**theholycow** · 08-13-2011, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by add|ct

PS: What is the difference between a fuel pump and fuel sender?

Back in the days of the VX it maybe still just meant the float and sensor that operate the fuel gauge. In modern vehicles "fuel sender module" now means that stuff PLUS the fuel pump and anything else directly integrated. I find it quite annoying but that's what the manufacturers call it.

add|ct · 08-13-2011, 10:36 AM

^Ah, I see. This has been quite an informative thread.

PS: If the OP goes on RockAuto and looks for a replacement fuel pump, right now the Denso offering(WITH replacement strainer/sock included), is cheaper than the kit without the strainer. Both are on RA, but the Denso kit w/ strainer is not in the Fuel Pump section, it's under the Fuel Pump Mounting Kit section.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...,parttype,6238

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...,parttype,6256

^Also, it seems that the Bosch part has gotten good reviews so far on AAP if you look up the same part there. It's actually cheaper if you can get the Denso from AAP and use the discount code for most savings(which may mean getting the pre-discount total over $100.)...

add|ct · 08-13-2011, 10:53 AM

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3151/civcspecs.png

40 pump psi needed.

1993CivicVX · 08-14-2011, 11:00 PM

Hey guys, thanks all for the posts. The timing belt was done I think shortly after I got the car (4th quarter '07), but I'll have to double check that. If I did do the timing belt (and I'm not even sure I did) I don't think the water pump was done. So that would be maybe 60+ thousand miles? I don't really know how many miles I drive a year (probably around 18-20 is my guess) my odometer works when it wants to (50%-60% of the time?). I'm pretty sure the mechanic tested the fuel pump and said that was not the culprit. Just now I tried starting the car and I heard a noise I hadn't heard before, but it didn't repeat (it was a one time thing). The sound was sort of like when you turn the key off and then on again too soon and you get that high-strung ignition sound, but it wasn't that.. it was less high-strung sounding and more high pitched, but whirr-like sounding. I do hear the fuel pump come on when I turn the key to on.

I went back to the shop on Friday morning and the car drove flawlessly there. I didn't do any EOC just to be sure that wasn't exacerbating things. There wasn't so much as a hiccup all the way to the shop. I explained to him the problems I was having since he fixed it, of the hesitation coming back and the stalling and not starting etc. I also confessed to him my habit of EOCing. He said that EOCing probably not causing problems, but to maybe not do it for awhile until the car is running well again. He said the fuel pump wasn't the problem and that maybe moisture in the tank was causing the problems to continue after he replaced the plugwires and distributor, so he gave me a free bottle of drygas. I added it to the tank but when I drove away, all the problems came back again of stuttering etc. Once I got on the highway things improved a bit as described in the paragraph below.

One interesting thing to note is that since the spark plug wires and distributor were replaced, the car runs really well (when it isn't coughing or dying). For example, on a 15 mile trip from the shop back to my apartment I was up to 80mph on the interstate so effortlessly and half the time in lean-burn--the car hasn't run like that in a long time--and I had the pedal only slightly depressed. I didn't realize I was going that fast because usually it will not be able to reach that speed when the pedal is so lightly depressed, but when the speedometer came on again, to my surprise, it was at 80. Then the power inexplicably cut out and then stalled when I tried to give it gas. I coasted down the highway in neutral, bump starting failed repeatedly to get the car going again. Pulled over on the side of the highway I turned the key over many many times (maybe like 10 minutes of turning the key for 1-3 seconds and then waiting a few seconds and trying again). Finally the car started again, but it was a fitful and slow drive back to the apartment (never got above 40mph).

Another very interesting and I think very important detail that I've noticed is that the more gas you give the car, the worse it responds. When I eeked my way back to the apartment, the more I gave it gas, the more it was prone to hiccuping and stuttering and more importantly, stalling again. The more I feathered the gaspedal, the less it seemed like it would stutter or stall.

I would not be surprised if a new fuel filter might be in order. I'm pretty sure I changed it in late '07 shortly after acquiring the car, but given that I almost always let the tank go to fumes, this should be considered in analyzing this problem.

Awhile ago I posted about how my car stalls when I try to drive away immediately after starting it when the engine is cold (and when it's cold out). If I start the car and immediately put it in gear, it will stall (doesn't want to go). I think this problem started about 2 years ago. It may have gotten a little bit progressively worse since then. Seems to me that this may somehow be related.

Electrical issues: Awhile ago the left turn signal blinked quickly sometimes, but hasn't done that in a couple months and only did it occasionally during a ~6 week period. The dome light in the car started to work intermittently and then stopped working altogether (this was 2+ years ago). I haven't replaced the dome light to see if it was the bulb. I just assumed it was an electrical issue due to the intermittent nature of it working sometimes but other times not before dying completely.

Due to the intermittent nature of the problems I'm having with the car, I wonder if it's not an electrical/fuse issue. The mechanic said that when I dropped it off, it had no spark. This seems to be the case when it stalled at 80mph on the interstate and bump starting failed. And yet, it did eventually start. So how can a car have spark sometimes, and other times not? The mechanic spent an hour doing diagnostics when I last brought it in. Maybe I will stop by and ask him what those tests he did were and the results of all of them. All I know is that no spark was one of them, and that the fuel pump was not bad.

benfrogg · 08-15-2011, 11:06 AM

Okay-
Now the behavior on the highway you've just described is almost exactly the symptom given by the main relay. This is what happened to my vx. I was a couple of miles from home (almost all down hill from there, thankfully) and the car just stalled. I was accelerating at the time. I cranked for a while to no avail. I put it in neutral and coasted much of the way home. I had to push a while, which wasn't bad, until the medium incline of my road. I figured for grins, why not try to start again. And, just as beautifully as it had started for the past year, it started again. No crappy running, just good to go.

So, you need to resolider your main relay. If nothing else, it rules it out. That relay controls spark and fuel in one plastic box. If you had no spark at the shop, that is absolutely why. (especially if it came back randomly not long afterward) The reason it starts again later is because the temp has lowered enough or vibration allowed the relay to have good contact at the joints. It is very possible that the relay is giving low/insufficient voltage/amps during certain circumstances like when it is hot.
If you have a solidering iron you can do this fix yourself. Most people recommend removing the old solider with a special tool (desolidering iron) but I just added solider to each of my joints with new solider and it's been a year with no problems.

I can do a write up on how to do it, but here's some great resources:
Tons of info on the relay:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...html#mainrelay

Photos, details of what you'll be looking at.
http://www.marklamond.co.uk/tech-hon...main-relay.htm

You can replace the relay too, but this solution is really cheap and easy to do. If it solves the problem, and it comes back, you can buy a new one if you'd like.

B

1993CivicVX · 08-15-2011, 12:40 PM

Thanks Benfrogg! And everyone else for all the thorough and detailed feedback. I started the car again today and it ran fine after a little trouble starting (but not too much). It ran without a hiccup just fine mostly up hills and winding back country roads with low speed limits, ~10 miles (18 minutes). There seems to be a pattern developing where it runs much better when started from a cold start--and makes sense per Benfrogg's comments on the relay and cold vs hot. I will see about getting the relay resoldered and report back here. I'm not much of a DIY kind of guy, so I'll prolly pay someone to do it, but I'm sure this thread will be useful to other more thrifty VX owners down the line. Thanks everyone. This site is still the best.

benfrogg · 08-15-2011, 03:20 PM

1993civicvx-
Make sure the mechanic soliders all solider points on the relay. Not just ones that appear "dry." You won't often be able to see the hairline cracks either. Just touch a good iron to each point and add some new solider.

Good luck!
B

add|ct · 08-15-2011, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benfrogg

1993civicvx-
Make sure the mechanic soliders all solider points on the relay. Not just ones that appear "dry." You won't often be able to see the hairline cracks either. Just touch a good iron to each point and add some new solider.

Good luck!
B

Exactly. Re-solder them all, 'right', or replace the part all together.

1993CivicVX · 08-17-2011, 06:21 AM

Mechanic says he is not a solder surgeon and that he can't solder the relay. He also doesn't think it is the relay and feels confident it is a fuel issue. He suggested hooking up some fuel gauge and taking it on the highway so that's what we are doing tomorrow morning. He also said all his techs think bump starting is a big no-no because it puts stress on the timing belt; a part you dont want failing prematurely. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again for all the input. I really appreciate it.