Loud Valves, or just Old - Gas Savers

rh77 · 03-01-2007, 12:48 PM

I've noticed lately that the 'Teg's engine has been sounding like a clattering diesel lately, even when warmed-up and only under load.

For example when cruising and bleeding the throttle, you get that catch-and-coast effect where the play in the transmission either requires a little acceleration from the engine, or it coasts. During the accel portion is when the sound is most noticeable.

I would say that it's a change from the 3-years ago baseline when I took it as the daily driver: much louder.

Honda engine experts: is this perhaps noisy valves? I know they require adjustment from time-to-time. Any benefits/detriments from adjusting them or letting them go???

RH77

SVOboy · 03-01-2007, 01:06 PM

I would adjust them...valve tick is annoying but could become a problem. I don't know if this is the real term, but it's what I grew up with. My mom's camry had a bit of it when it got out of time, which was annoying. So get some calipers and measure and adjust...it's not that hard, wish I had the tools though.

rh77 · 03-01-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy

I would adjust them...valve tick is annoying but could become a problem. I don't know if this is the real term, but it's what I grew up with. My mom's camry had a bit of it when it got out of time, which was annoying. So get some calipers and measure and adjust...it's not that hard, wish I had the tools though.

When I had my '97 DX, I followed the recommended service requirements to a "T" -- which included valve adjustment at 15K miles after they had a chance to seat. I went back to the service bay and watched the adjustment process -- basically a feeler gauge and a wrench, I believe. The technician disconnected the coil wire, and had a switch hooked to the starter to slightly rotate the cam and adjust the next set of valves. I'm curious to take the valve cover off and see what's going on in there. I assume you can check to see if the oil supply tubes are gunked up.

RH77

Gary Palmer · 03-01-2007, 03:23 PM

Your assessment is basically correct. All you really need, after you remove the valve cover is a feeler gauge, the right size wrench and a flat blade screwdriver.

I usually turn the engine over using a socket wrench on the main crankshaft pulley, so I can stop the engine where I wish. What I have done the last couple of times is just look at the engine firing sequence and remove the distributor, so I can monitor which spark plug the rotor on the distributor is pointing at. Then I turn the engine so that the intake and exhaust are both closed on the first cylinder and the rotor is pointing to the first cylinder, which means the valves should be fully closed.

All you do, then is take the feeler gauge, with the right thickness of blade or blades and slide it between the top of the valve and the adjustment screw. If it scrapes, but goes in, leave it alone. If it's too loose, then loosen the locking nut on the adjustment screw, tighten the adjustment screw down to where the feeler gauge just scrapes, tighten the locking nut and recheck the adjustment.

After you do the intake and exhaust on the first piston, then turn the engine over, using the socket wrench, to the second piston and the second position on the rotor and the valves closed, and so forth.

What your describing might also be related to timing advance. When I was fiddling with a fixed resistor in place of the intake temperature, I encountered this phenomenon, more pronounced than previously. Just a thought.

Hot Georgia · 03-01-2007, 05:06 PM

Are they out of adjustment or just sticking?

Have anybody heard of the gas-ATF mixture trick?
I did that every so often on some antique cars I had and made them run so smooth and quiet again.

But those cars didn't have a CAT and not sure what effect burnt ATF would have on it ?

cfg83 · 03-01-2007, 05:31 PM

Hot Georgia -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hot Georgia

Are they out of adjustment or just sticking?

Have anybody heard of the gas-ATF mixture trick?
I did that every so often on some antique cars I had and made them run so smooth and quiet again.

But those cars didn't have a CAT and not sure what effect burnt ATF would have on it ?

gas-ATF ?????? You made me google and I found this. It mentions gas-kerosene too :

254 stuck valve
http://www.classiccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8125

Quote:

... first of all find which cylinder is missing, by shorting out each plug in turn. It is usually an exhaust valve which is stuck, so when you find which cylinder, remove that plug and the valve is right underneath. Tap it down and see what happens, It may be that you need to mix up a can full of 50/50 gasoline and kerosene. Remove the air cleaner, start the motro, rev it up and pour the mix down the carburettor throat, heavy enough so that the engine almost stalls. There will be great clouds of smoke, but the mix will get sprayed on to the valve stems, which should be enough to loosen the offending valve if it is still stuck ...

EDIT : Why not disconnect the CAT for the cleaning?

CarloSW2

scostanz · 03-01-2007, 06:38 PM

I'd check your valve lash for sure as any variance from what is recommended will affect when the valve opens...either late or early depending on too much or too little of a gap. It doesn't sound like valves to me though, you'd hear them all the time. I'd check the base timing if it's adjustable on your engine for starters.

-- Scott

thisisntjared · 03-01-2007, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scostanz

I'd check your valve lash for sure as any variance from what is recommended will affect when the valve opens...either late or early depending on too much or too little of a gap. It doesn't sound like valves to me though, you'd hear them all the time. I'd check the base timing if it's adjustable on your engine for starters.

-- Scott

i think you are right and perhaps the timing was adjusted earlier for better fuel economy, and it could have been alright with some gas... and bad with other tanks.

fyi, valve adjustment on a b series is A LOT more annoying than a d series. its just the angle. with a d series you can do it with just the feeler gauge, box wrench and screwdriver. with a b series you really should get the tool and bend the feeler gauge to get an accurate reading at such an awkward angle.

Silveredwings · 03-01-2007, 06:58 PM

Really, the honda engines need valves adjusted? I thought engines nowadays all had shimmed lifters. Learn something new every day.

Gary Palmer · 03-01-2007, 07:20 PM

I wonder if the problem your having isn't something to do with your efforts to control the intake temperature.

When I was fiddeling with the IAT temperature on my 89 it got to where I could hear the engine as it was approaching knocking, but not quite their under load. If you put in some higher octane gas and the clattering sound your describing goes away, then you can be confident that something you have done has the timing a little on the edge of advance.

On my 89 I quit fiddeling, reconnected the IAT and put in new plugs. I think that running it as far out on the edge as I had it, it must have done something to the plugs, because my mileage dropped about 8% but more critically I couldn't climb a grade that I could previously. Before my fiddeling I could pull 70 all the way to the top and after my IAT fiddeling, I could only pull about 60 and it seemed to be getting worse.

rh77 · 03-01-2007, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclencher

I thought they all had hydraulic lifters.

Mechanical lifters are the norm on Hondas these days. I was surprised that my first Civic required valve adjustment -- never heard of such a thing. After they seat, they recommend adjustment if they become "noisy", per the manual, on the newer models.

As far as IATs go, I've been running relatively stock air of between 50-100F, so detonation probably isn't an issue.

After the car came back from the body shop, the PCV catch valve was upside-down (they probably messed with it -- darnit), so all that gunk was sucked back into the engine. Perhaps time for Seafoam or Auto-Rx?

I did a full-RPM run-up today to see if there were any misses or abnormalities, and the only thing I noticed was a big increase in power. It really took off. Then again, I haven't really "ran-it" for a few months for FE.

...and FE is up.

Timing advance may be a issue to consider. I'll take a look at the SG's timing numbers tomorrow (if that will show anything). Since the stereo's not working right now, I can really hear the engine all the time during my commute. Climbing a hill sounds like an old Mercedes Diesel (no smoke, thank goodness).

Anyways, I'll add valve adjustment to the list of maintenance items

RH77

omgwtfbyobbq · 03-02-2007, 12:15 AM

Interference engines tend to have solid lifters, right?

omgwtfbyobbq · 03-02-2007, 12:39 AM

Yesh, I think you're right. It's just that interference engines breather better, so manufacturers that want to see good mileage by using small displacement but don't want to get beat out in the hp wars use 'em to boost output.

rh77 · 03-02-2007, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omgwtfbyobbq

Yesh, I think you're right. It's just that interference engines breather better, so manufacturers that want to see good mileage by using small displacement but don't want to get beat out in the hp wars use 'em to boost output.

That's the problem, the engine can really crank out some power from 4000-6750 RPM (even with the automatic) -- so, with that ability, FE has to take a hit down low as well.

I asked my wife (the original owner) and she states that the valves have never been adjusted, just routine maintenance. So...once the valves are back into spec, is it reasonable to assume a change in FE (please say for the better

).

I'm getting bolder with doing my own repairs, so I usually like to ask what I'm getting into here. Gary did an excellent job of explaining the process, which is nearly identical to the shop manual.

I suppose that a new valve cover gasket and proper torque/sequence of replacing the cover bolts is expected. Otherwise it sounds straightforward to rotate the crank around and get the valves lined-up for adjustment. The oil needs changed anyway, so I assume that would probably be required as well, for good procedure.

Is this on par with say, replacing a brake caliper assembly, but perhaps more time consuming with the time taken on each valve???

Thanks again...

-RH77

scostanz · 03-02-2007, 07:01 AM

It's a simple process, the hard part is getting just the right "feel" with the feeler gauge. You'll find you can get the correct feel during the adjustment but it changes as you tighten the adjustment lock nut. You'll have to anticipate that change during the adjustment so that when the lock nut is tightened, the gap is correct. This will make more sense when you do it. Not sure of your specific engine but my Civic requires that the engine be cold before doing the valves. I usually do my adjustments on Saturday or Sunday morning before starting the car.

-- Scott

rh77 · 03-02-2007, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scostanz

It's a simple process, the hard part is getting just the right "feel" with the feeler gauge. You'll find you can get the correct feel during the adjustment but it changes as you tighten the adjustment lock nut. You'll have to anticipate that change during the adjustment so that when the lock nut is tightened, the gap is correct. This will make more sense when you do it. Not sure of your specific engine but my Civic requires that the engine be cold before doing the valves. I usually do my adjustments on Saturday or Sunday morning before starting the car.

-- Scott

Makes sense -- tightening the lock nut moves the adjustment nut in tandem and leaves it tighter than expected. Also good to know about the engine being cold.

RH77

scostanz · 03-02-2007, 08:06 AM

You're supposed to hold the adjustment screw with your screwdriver while you tighten the lock nut but the adjustment will still change. Not a huge deal but part of the procedure needed to get it done correctly.

-- Scott

cfg83 · 03-02-2007, 11:33 AM

omgwtfbyobbq -

Quote:

Originally Posted by omgwtfbyobbq

Yesh, I think you're right. It's just that interference engines breather better, so manufacturers that want to see good mileage by using small displacement but don't want to get beat out in the hp wars use 'em to boost output.

That must be one reason that Saturns like mine have metal timing chains instead of timing belts. The designers wanted these benefits, but didn't want to take the chance of having a timing belt failure that leads to destroyed engines. That was always a "feature" they would advertise, but it sounds almost necessary with an interference engine.

CarloSW2

rh77 · 03-02-2007, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83

That must be one reason that Saturns like mine have metal timing chains instead of timing belts. The designers wanted these benefits, but didn't want to take the chance of having a timing belt failure that leads to destroyed engines. That was always a "feature" they would advertise, but it sounds almost necessary with an interference engine.
CarloSW2

Chains fail as well, but not to the extent of belts. The Honda interval is around 60-80K, some let it go until 120K if they're lucky (I don't take such chances) -- and always have the water pump replaced with the belt.

I had a timing chain fail on a '77 Olds with 80K miles. Granted it was 16 years old at the time, but it broke. 350 V-8: Not an interference engine

RH77

SVOboy · 03-02-2007, 12:04 PM

Wasn't it larry's chain breaking that totalled his old saturn?

JanGeo · 03-02-2007, 01:22 PM

Before you go adjusting the valves espically if they are loose (too much clearance) you should take it out for a good high speed run on the highway and blow out any carbon. You could be seating the valves on a deposit of carbon on the valve seats or valves themselves. The last thing you want to do is tighten up the clearance and then have the carbon blow out and end up with valves that don't close. The reason that there are no hydralic adjusters in most overhead cam engines is that there is no need - there are no long pushrods that expand and contract with engine temps to be compensated for if the cam is pushing a lifter bucket right on a valve stem.

cfg83 · 03-02-2007, 03:02 PM

SVOboy -

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVOboy

Wasn't it larry's chain breaking that totalled his old saturn?

Update-TOAST!
http://www.gassavers.org/showpost.ph...6&postcount=21

I now live in fear,

CarloSW2

rh77 · 03-02-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JanGeo

Before you go adjusting the valves espically if they are loose (too much clearance) you should take it out for a good high speed run on the highway and blow out any carbon. You could be seating the valves on a deposit of carbon on the valve seats or valves themselves. The last thing you want to do is tighten up the clearance and then have the carbon blow out and end up with valves that don't close. The reason that there are no hydralic adjusters in most overhead cam engines is that there is no need - there are no long pushrods that expand and contract with engine temps to be compensated for if the cam is pushing a lifter bucket right on a valve stem.

Since its so windy right now (still 25, gusting to 40mph), the plan was to do a Seafoam cleanse tonight (too embarassing to do in the daylight hours

)

...then tomorrow morning I'll see what that does when I run some errands, then I'll leave it unplugged and cold for adjustments on Sunday if need-be.

I already ran it up yesterday, and all I could really note was that I didn't remember it being so fast to redline. Then again, I hadn't done that for a while in this car as it's getting older and it's not best on the old FE to do it weekly, per se. Then I thought, "This car has too much power, it's heavy, blah-blah". Otherwise it wouldn't be a challenge, right

RH77

EDIT: cfg83 -- stop what you're doing, grab your owner's manual, and find out the chain replacement interval. If you know when (if) it was replaced, then go from there.

diamondlarry · 03-02-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfg83

SVOboy -

Update-TOAST!
http://www.gassavers.org/showpost.ph...6&postcount=21

I now live in fear,

CarloSW2

Don't worry too much. I did hear that the '97 Saturn SL/SL1 had a higher than usual rate of chain failure. I think I also heard that changes were made starting in '98 that pretty much solved that problem.

Gary Palmer · 03-02-2007, 03:21 PM

rh77: I'd say it's no more complicated than doing the brake calipers, and probably easier. It takes a little time, but it's not bad. I would recommend that you just get a new valve cover gasket to replace the old one with. On mine I've used the old cover and put a thin film of silicon rubber on, to seal it, but I'd only give that a 50/50 chance of sealing, given my experience. I've done it largely cause I'm pretty cheapy.

The Honda's seem to use some material that is pretty pliable, until it's heated up by the engine running. Then it takes on a more solid set and it can be a pain to get them to seal. I've never had a new gasket leak, so that would be my A. recommendation.

The valve adjustment procedure on Honda's is to do them while the engine is cold. I've done them warm, but I don't recommend it, for two reasons. First, the specification is for them cold. Second, it is a real pain and very uncomfortable to do when the engine is heated. I have rechecked and made very minor adjustments to the valves, in the cases where I've done them hot and I don't think the differences were really significant, but since the specification is for doing it with the engine cold, that is the way I'd go.

As far as frequency of the adjustment, I typically don't adjust mine, except when I replace the timing belt. I presume they could go out of adjustment enough, maybe, to create a problem, in the mean time, but I sure haven't seen enough variation from specification, to cause me to change. I usually try to do the timing belt about every 50,000 or so, but I probably really have a leaning towards more like 70,000, before I start reminding myself enough to get the belt and do the work.

If you've done the timing belt and water pump, that is probably more of a chore than the valve adjustment.

One core advantage to solid lifters is that they aren't going to start failing, like hydraulic adjusters can and not having to try to figure out or replace a hydraulic lifter is something I like. I have had hydraulic lifters completely quit filling with oil, but other than making the valve train clatter like mad, it doesn't seem to affect the valves themselves. Is annoying, but not functionally threatening.

rh77 · 03-02-2007, 08:32 PM

Well, the Seafoam has been run-through. Honestly, use in a WELL ventilated area. This is the 3rd treatment and it just smokes the living daylights out of the neighborhood. Thank goodness for the wind.

The funny part is taking it out on the highway and running it up -- it just looks like the engine threw a rod, but by the time I'm home, it's smooth as silk and no smoking.

I did a higher-load, light acceleration on a hill that generally produces the clatter. The treatment seems to have quieted-down the overall noise by a large margin, but the clatter is still slightly present. My guess is that the PCV catch liquid coated the valves in a sticky carbon build-up and caused the excessive noise. Hopefully, all that is gone with the white smoke, but the adjustment probably needs done for good measure.

I'll probably give it another day of listening and see if it requires a day of my weekend to play around with. The valve cover is leaking a bit of oil anyway, so I'd probably go the whole route and get the proper gasket for longevity. At any rate, it's going to need an oil change after the Seafoam (as does the TSX -- the oil change monitor says it's time) -- so off to the warehouse store for a couple gallons of oil.

In the meantime, thanks again to all for the education in engine maintenance!

RH77

thisisntjared · 03-02-2007, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclencher

Wow- I guess that's the price you gotta pay to have an 8000 rpm redline.

try 6800

its just a regular teg

Quote:

Originally Posted by rh77

I did a higher-load, light acceleration on a hill that generally produces the clatter. The treatment seems to have quieted-down the overall noise by a large margin, but the clatter is still slightly present. My guess is that the PCV catch liquid coated the valves in a sticky carbon build-up and caused the excessive noise. Hopefully, all that is gone with the white smoke, but the adjustment probably needs done for good measure.

I'll probably give it another day of listening and see if it requires a day of my weekend to play around with. The valve cover is leaking a bit of oil anyway, so I'd probably go the whole route and get the proper gasket for longevity. At any rate, it's going to need an oil change after the Seafoam (as does the TSX -- the oil change monitor says it's time) -- so off to the warehouse store for a couple gallons of oil.

In the meantime, thanks again to all for the education in engine maintenance!

RH77

i think the gunk did cause the noise but not because it coated the valves. it started causing noise by the same reason it decreases your fuel economy. it lowers the octane of your air/fuel ratio, leading to mild detonation. i am positive that is what was the issue. who put the pcv valve in upside down???

cfg83 · 03-02-2007, 09:08 PM

diamondlarry and RH77 -

Quote:

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

Don't worry too much. I did hear that the '97 Saturn SL/SL1 had a higher than usual rate of chain failure. I think I also heard that changes were made starting in '98 that pretty much solved that problem.

Thanks for the info. This makes sense because I remember reading once that 1999 was a "good year" for my Saturn in terms of reliability. I plan on calling up the Saturn dealer and checking on the service record. Technically, I have the record, but not all in front of me. I know the chain must be the original. I got it used at 36K miles, so I can't believe it was switched before then.

This just fed into my year long paranoia :
Tapping Valves or Timing Chain or ?!?!?!?!?
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93037

CarloSW2

rh77 · 03-02-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rh77

That's the problem, the engine can really crank out some power from 4000-6750 RPM (even with the automatic)...

Is it 6750? Just guessing. I'll take a look at the SG as it records the max RPM.

After the ice incident and consequent visit to the body shop, I got the car back with the PCV catch bottle upside-down and the about 5cc of gunk sucked back up into the intake. I realized it after popping the hood about 200-300 miles later, to replace the windshield washer fluid. I was a bit upset, as you could imagine. The whole point of the device was defeated. Hopefully the latest cleanse will have taken care of the influx. The PCV valve was fine, it was my catch device that was moved, inspected, or just plain messed-with.

It didn't run any different until I noted the clatter.

RH77

EDIT: the SG showed a max of 6637 RPM. I let it run a bit higher in 2nd before manually shifting into D3. Redline is probably 6500 -- It didn't hit fuel-cut, which is probably 6750-6800. Yup, it's no ITR. Now ask me about my old '99 Civic Si with the B16a2

cfg83 · 03-02-2007, 09:39 PM

RH77-

Quote:

Originally Posted by rh77

Is it 6750? Just guessing. I'll take a look at the SG as it records the max RPM.

After the ice incident and consequent visit to the body shop, I got the car back with the PCV catch bottle upside-down and the about 5cc of gunk sucked back up into the intake. I realized it after popping the hood about 200-300 miles later, to replace the windshield washer fluid. I was a bit upset, as you could imagine. The whole point of the device was defeated. Hopefully the latest cleanse will have taken care of the influx. The PCV valve was fine, it was my catch device that was moved, inspected, or just plain messed-with.

It didn't run any different until I noted the clatter.

RH77

EDIT: the SG showed a max of 6637 RPM. I let it run a bit higher in 2nd before manually shifting into D3. Redline is probably 6500 -- It didn't hit fuel-cut, which is probably 6750-6800. Yup, it's no ITR. Now ask me about my old '99 Civic Si with the B16a2

That's one thing I know I want to avoid. With all the stuff going on under my hood, I feel like I need to do a "cleaning out" before I take my car into the shop. I know I can't go to a Saturn dealer anymore. They would tell me about how I am going to shoot my eye out,

.

The PCV catch can shouldn't have been messed with, though. That is not a "whacky device" to add to a car.

Possible Shop Mantra : If it ain't stock, it's coming off!!!!!!!!!!!!

CarloSW2