No more diesels in California - Gas Savers

Matt Timion · 06-12-2006, 06:51 AM

I just heard on the radio that the California Legislature just banned the sale of newer diesel vehicles. Apparently the last year you can buy a diesel in California is 2005.

Has anyone else heard this?

Thoughts?

95metro · 06-12-2006, 09:03 AM

Yeah, I had heard something like this. Wasn't this part of the reason why VW is dumping their entire diesel line for 2007 (at least for the USA, I'm not certain if Canada was included in that).

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...605280708/1014

Apparently it is because of the NOx emissions, but I can't imagine that the diesels are so much higher than gas. Of course, they do suck in a lot more air so there would be more nitrogen oxides for the cats to convert.

Has anybody looked up the emissions difference between gas and diesel engines? I'm curious now so I guess I will.

EDIT: Found a good article on the first hit:

http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/0...ne-article.htm

As an afterthought - kind of stupid to be killing diesels when SUVs are still being considered as "trucks" and not subjected to strict pollution laws. Diesel cars are being judged, but VW can still sell the Toureg because it's an SUV. It probably pollutes as much as 3 or 4 diesel Jettas combined.

SVOboy · 06-12-2006, 12:37 PM

i think part of the diesel hate is the worthless sulfur standards on the gas, which bush relaxed during katrina to make diesel easier to produce...

anyway, honda has totally redesigned the diesel engine with clean in mind, and you know they're serious, because the japanese HATE diesel, it's gotten such a bad rap in that country for decades, so for honda to pitch this engine it must be something special.

nkawtg · 08-01-2008, 03:51 PM

Let's hope California gets a clue and lifts the Diesel ban. Diesels are much cleaner than the past, and getting cleaner every day.

SD26 · 08-01-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkawtg

Let's hope California gets a clue...

Big Dave · 08-01-2008, 07:06 PM

According to the EPA's emissions bible - Publication AP-42:

Diesels emit more particulate and NOx per HP-hr than gas engines
Gas engines emit more VOC and carbon monoxide than diesels

If carbon dioxide matters to you, gas engines emit more carbon dioxide per HP-hr

Beware of EPA.gov. It is perennially infested with viruses.

**theholycow** · 08-01-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Beware of EPA.gov. It is perennially infested with viruses.

kamesama980 · 08-02-2008, 03:47 PM

yay california. the least thought per vote in the country.

samasaurus · 08-24-2008, 12:28 PM

I may be wrong but I read or hear that California is going to start selling diesel cars again.

Big Dave · 08-24-2008, 04:06 PM

CA is 20% of the US car market. If they fail to rescind this nonsense, nobody will import for an 80% market encumbered by Tier II (no better MPG than gas-pigs) and diesel fuel costing 80 cents a gallon more than RUG.

Why bother?

tjts1 · 08-27-2008, 11:50 AM

I hope everyone realizes this is a 2 year old thread. There are new 09 TDI Jettas and Mercedes CDIs gathering dust on dealer lots right now in California.

itjstagame · 08-28-2008, 09:17 AM

Can we instead then, go into a rant about why the heck diesel costs so much more than gasoline in the US right now? When did it become more expensive, seems like 3-4 years ago but not sure I'm remember correctly. It always used to be significantly cheaper.

I was just in Germany for 3 months and it's still significantly cheaper than gas over there and they have some awesome diesel cars. I really want an A3 2.0 TDI, but then again the BWM 320di I used got over 40MPG at 100MPH and it was a station wagon.

What retarded marketting exec decided that America should think wagons look stupid but SUVs look good.

**theholycow** · 08-28-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itjstagame

What retarded marketting exec decided that America should think wagons look stupid but SUVs look good.

Blame CAFE. It's easier to comply with CAFE with a medium SUV than a big wagon. That's what triggered the whole thing, and then the general public decided they like it...

tjts1 · 08-28-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itjstagame

Can we instead then, go into a rant about why the heck diesel costs so much more than gasoline in the US right now? When did it become more expensive, seems like 3-4 years ago but not sure I'm remember correctly. It always used to be significantly cheaper.

I was just in Germany for 3 months and it's still significantly cheaper than gas over there and they have some awesome diesel cars. I really want an A3 2.0 TDI, but then again the BWM 320di I used got over 40MPG at 100MPH and it was a station wagon.

What retarded marketting exec decided that America should think wagons look stupid but SUVs look good.

Blame the Europeans for replacing all their gasone powered cars with diesels. If you go back to Germany today you'll see that they are paying the same 20% premium for diesel fuel over gasoline. World wide damend for diesel fuel has increased much faster than gasoline in the last few years. The perceived cost saving of diesel has been it's undoing. As a result demand for diesel vehicles has declined dramatically in europe this summer. When running costs are equal, even Europens prefer gasoline over diesel. The let's blame the EPA/ULSD/CAFE myth has already been debunked in a prior thread. The small diesel engine is headed the way of the dodo bird.

trollbait · 08-29-2008, 08:53 AM

Except that biodiesel has a better energy return of investment than ethanol and maybe even butanol.

**Jay2TheRescue** · 08-29-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theholycow

Blame CAFE. It's easier to comply with CAFE with a medium SUV than a big wagon. That's what triggered the whole thing, and then the general public decided they like it...

I loved my big, old Pontiac wagon. Someday I will have another big wagon in my stable of vehicles. I would love to have a late 60's/early 70's Pontiac Grand Safari or Olds Vista Crusier I love those old GM "clamshell" tailgates.

-Jay

SD26 · 08-29-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trollbait

Except that biodiesel has a better energy return of investment than ethanol and maybe even butanol.

Where is butanol lately? I read some stuff, but I haven't heard anything lately at all. More BTU's than ethanol at least. For a gasoline engine, seems like a good fit.

itjstagame · 09-17-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

Blame the Europeans for replacing all their gasone powered cars with diesels. If you go back to Germany today you'll see that they are paying the same 20% premium for diesel fuel over gasoline. World wide damend for diesel fuel has increased much faster than gasoline in the last few years. The perceived cost saving of diesel has been it's undoing. As a result demand for diesel vehicles has declined dramatically in europe this summer. When running costs are equal, even Europens prefer gasoline over diesel. The let's blame the EPA/ULSD/CAFE myth has already been debunked in a prior thread. The small diesel engine is headed the way of the dodo bird.

What lies have you been being told? You should reread my post, I was there from May 08 to August 08. I was JUST there. Diesel is 15-20% cheaper every place I went in Europe (Germany, all over, Czech, Austria, Swiss (swiss is actually cheapest suprisingly) and France). And they're making new diesel cars left and right.

I only rented 3 cars that was gasoline and at least 2 that were diesel. All were 0-1 year old, one was a Ford Wagon and the other was a BWM 320 wagon. Both had 6 speeds with tall gearing and plenty of torque still in top gear and at low RPM to pull from 100MPH-120MPH to pass. Both got just over 6L/100km or about 30-35MPG at 100+MPH the entire time. They were awesome and I'm sure they'd get 45MPG at the 65MPH here, but it'd still be a tough call with the retard gas pricing on diesel that is ONLY happening in America and ONLY in the past 2-3 years.

tjts1 · 09-17-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itjstagame

What lies have you been being told? You should reread my post, I was there from May 08 to August 08. I was JUST there. Diesel is 15-20% cheaper every place I went in Europe (Germany, all over, Czech, Austria, Swiss (swiss is actually cheapest suprisingly) and France). And they're making new diesel cars left and right.

Please show me one country where diesel is 15-20% cheaper.
http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/
Just like the US, the price of diesel fuel in Europe has skyrocketed faster than gasoline. Most countries in Europe have a tax system in place that favors diesel fuel over gasoline in order to encourage people into lower CO2 emitting vehicles.
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/i...te-906793.html

cheers
Justin

SD26 · 09-18-2008, 06:53 AM

Actual personal experience is just different than a survey. I'll just say that.

getnpsi · 09-19-2008, 03:53 PM

i know in california diesel costs much more because of the tax. large trucks fill on the other side of the state line because it makes sense for them.

Mike T · 09-20-2008, 05:30 PM

In France and Germany, diesel is at least 15 Euro cents cheaper than 95 RON. That was in late spring.

Towjoe42 · 09-26-2008, 10:02 PM

Even though you cannot buy a new Diesel Car in California, you can go to Arizona or another state that allows new ones to be sold and buy one. then just wait six months and it is considered USED and you can register it in California.

groar · 10-01-2008, 04:16 PM

Prices around my house :

1.275 / 1.332 diesel 51 / 55 (cetane)
1.355 / 1.443 gasoline 95 / 98

Diesel is cheaper thanks to taxes. Not to advantage it for CO2 because these taxes differences exist since the 70's. Then the petrol companies were producing too much diesel...

Current French ecological intensives on new cars buying based upon CO2 emissions are advantaging diesel, but constructors have since this summer a few little gasolines which have good results as the Citroen C1 and the Toyota Aygo.

But diesel's maintenance is more expensive. Total cost is better for diesel above 15000km/year.

My diesel is a second hand so not much more expensive than a gasoline. As I'm saving 33% on my consumption, I can offer me the best diesel 10% more expensive than lowest cost, which is a 25% money saving

My 11 years old diesel emits certainly more particles than a newer diesel as I don't have a particle filter, but they are always not mandatory on new cars, even if they'll have to use it to respect next restrictions. Ecologically and economically it's better to use it during a few years before to destroy/sell it.

Denis.

Lug_Nut · 10-02-2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towjoe42

Even though you cannot buy a new Diesel Car in California, you can go to Arizona or another state that allows new ones to be sold and buy one. then just wait six months and it is considered USED and you can register it in California.

Requirements are minimum 7500 miles, purchased, titled and registered in a non-CARB state prior to registration in a CARB state. There is no time consideration in classifying a vehicle as 'new' or 'used' under CARB regulations.

COMP · 10-02-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug_Nut

Requirements are minimum 7500 miles, purchased, titled and registered in a non-CARB state prior to registration in a CARB state. There is no time consideration in classifying a vehicle as 'new' or 'used' under CARB regulations.

crazy,,making people do that