Shell's Nitrogen Enhanced Gasoline.

[aalb1]

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10185640-48.html

Cliff Notes: Shell is using Nitrogen as an additive to their gasoline to keep the engine clean.

Does it work... Maybe. But more importantly, What does this do for Fuel Economy?

[theholycow]

We'll all be able to find out soon enough. I'll try to get a baseline once the weather stabilizes this summer and then switch from Cumberland Farms to Shell if nobody reports on it by then.

[bowtieguy]

got a Shell gas card, so i'll find out as well.

[GasUser]

That article didn't say anything about it's effects on fuel economy, so I wonder?? You would think that if it improved fuel economy it would have been mentioned. Also, there is plenty of nitrogen in the air so our engines will really get an overdose now if it is also in the gas. I am not being negative, just thinking out loud here.

There are no Shell stations in Upstate NY anyway that I know of so I can't even try it just to see what it does.

[theholycow]

I guess the question is, what is it replacing? Also, how is it kept in the gasoline, being that nitrogen is gaseous unless you compress the hell out of it or crank the temperature down really really low.

[bowtieguy]

just filled up my wife's camaro and nothing was advertised as such yet. also would like to know if the v power(93 octane) is the only grade with nitrogen.

hmmmm...

[dkjones96]

Originally Posted by theholycow

I guess the question is, what is it replacing? Also, how is it kept in the gasoline, being that nitrogen is gaseous unless you compress the hell out of it or crank the temperature down really really low.

That was my first thought. I'd say they might do it like carbonated beverages but the act of pumping would make you lose most of it... Must be chemically stored like the nitrogen in airbags.

[aalb1]

Originally Posted by bowtieguy

just filled up my wife's camaro and nothing was advertised as such yet. also would like to know if the v power(93 octane) is the only grade with nitrogen.

hmmmm...

It's the complete opposite here. All the Shells have big vinyl banners advertising it.

Also it is a great point made that if it does improve FE then they would of course want to mention it. So it doesn't seem too promising from a FE perspective.

[JanGeo]

Ok so they put more cleaners in the gasoline to keep their dirty gas from fouling our engines . . . humm fertilizer is nitrogen rich . . . bunch of chicken ship!

[Jay2TheRescue]

Originally Posted by GasUser

That article didn't say anything about it's effects on fuel economy, so I wonder?? You would think that if it improved fuel economy it would have been mentioned. Also, there is plenty of nitrogen in the air so our engines will really get an overdose now if it is also in the gas. I am not being negative, just thinking out loud here.

There are no Shell stations in Upstate NY anyway that I know of so I can't even try it just to see what it does.

I don't know what stations you have up there, but Shell gasoline is also sold under the Quarles name as well.

-Jay

[markweatherill]

Sounds like it's the detergent package that is 'nitrogen enriched', whatever that means. Nitrogen is a known ingredient in fuel detergents.

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by aalb1

Also it is a great point made that if it does improve FE then they would of course want to mention it. So it doesn't seem too promising from a FE perspective.

false advertising suit liability could be a concern. the real question might be IF it truly keeps engines cleaner, it would not necessarily increase FE, but could it slow the negative affects of a dirty engine and related FE loss?

[Jay2TheRescue]

Personally I always thought ethanol did a pretty good job keeping fuel systems clean. Years ago in my area 7-11 was the only place that carried ethanol fuel. It was pretty much common knowledge that if you bought a new car and ran it on 7-11 gas from day one you wouldn't have problems, but if you switched to 7-11 gas after the car was a few years old it would unleash all sorts of gunk in your fuel system at once.

[GasUser]

Originally Posted by Jay2TheRescue

Personally I always thought ethanol did a pretty good job keeping fuel systems clean.

It does, and we have 10% of it in the "winter gas" here, and it takes a toll on everyone's gas mileage......along with the cold weather. But don't forget, that we have unleaded gas and that burns a lot cleaner than the leaded variety of years past anyway. Also we have the federally mandated detergent packages that everyone ads to their fuel.

If we had Shell here I would try it just to see what it does (if anything) to my fuel economy. Just because I am curious.

[dkjones96]

GasUser brings up an interesting point and it makes me wonder if the change in mileage because of the winter blend isn't actually because of the blend itself but weather changes... hmm.

Time to start data logging again!

[aalb1]

Originally Posted by dkjones96

GasUser brings up an interesting point and it makes me wonder if the change in mileage because of the winter blend isn't actually because of the blend itself but weather changes... hmm.

Time to start data logging again!

No need to datalog unless you want to get specifics with your car. Ethanol content in gasoline should always effect gas mileage. Some more obvious than others. (IE BIG SUV compared to a Civic/Metro) This is why some have always been skeptical of using ethanol as a bio fuel as it doesn't produce as much energy compared to fossil fuels. The EPA does have separate MPG Ratings these Flex Fuel Vehicles (Approx 30% less) http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

Now with 10% ethanol in gas. The difference won't be as drastic but they should still be there.

[VetteOwner]

lol i always loved the shell commercials, they always show a gunky valve that looks mysteriously like a used valve with black cornflakes stuck to it... heck even the valves i pulled outa my Model A engine thats been sitting for 50+ years wasnt anywhere near that bad....(mind you thats before the dawn of detergent oils and filters)

[aalb1]

Originally Posted by VetteOwner

lol i always loved the shell commercials, they always show a gunky valve that looks mysteriously like a used valve with black cornflakes stuck to it... heck even the valves i pulled outa my Model A engine thats been sitting for 50+ years wasnt anywhere near that bad....(mind you thats before the dawn of detergent oils and filters)

ShamWOW!!!!

[bowtieguy]

Originally Posted by aalb1

ShamWOW!!!!

"...we can't do this all day!"

but they can do it EVERYDAY!

[thisisntjared]

it was my understanding that nitrogen is largely inert. perhaps it expands more than other things in the combustion chamber?

its the n2o that we want

[KU40]

Originally Posted by thisisntjared

it was my understanding that nitrogen is largely inert. perhaps it expands more than other things in the combustion chamber?

its the n2o that we want

That's what I was thinking. The nitrogen does nothing for the actual combustion, right? So it's just taking up space, perhaps taking up the space that oxygen could be using, which would fuel the fire and create a more powerful explosion. So it would, by that logic, lower fuel economy, correct? Unless it was in some solid form, like fertilizer, which explodes pretty well.

[GasUser]

Originally Posted by thisisntjared

it was my understanding that nitrogen is largely inert. perhaps it expands more than other things in the combustion chamber?

You are right, nitrogen is inert.. That means that when it replaces all the "dead presidents" in your wallet and expands , it won't blow a hole in your butt.

[dkjones96]

Originally Posted by aalb1

No need to datalog unless you want to get specifics with your car. Ethanol content in gasoline should always effect gas mileage. Some more obvious than others. (IE BIG SUV compared to a Civic/Metro) This is why some have always been skeptical of using ethanol as a bio fuel as it doesn't produce as much energy compared to fossil fuels. The EPA does have separate MPG Ratings these Flex Fuel Vehicles (Approx 30% less) http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

Now with 10% ethanol in gas. The difference won't be as drastic but they should still be there.

The reduction in mileage is a result of it being a flex fuel vehicle. If the engine was built to run only E85 it'd get close to the same mileage. The engine needs to be able to run 87 octane gas so they build the engine for that. Putting a fuel that is at 105 octane like E85 is will cause a reduction in mileage even if it was straight gasoline.

[aalb1]

Octane = Detonation Resistance... not Fuel Efficiency!

Though ethanol has the potential to yield more torque/HP because of its detonation resistance, it naturally produces less energy when it is burned. Coming from the Honda-Tuning Scene Ethanol was the big thing because it's like running race-gas on the streets without the cost of race-gas. The biggest issue though was having to upgrade the whole fuel system to handle the added capacity that comes with running ethanol and after that fuel delivery was usually the "lid" that capped them from pushing it further... People who put out the money for 110 octane faced these issues a lot less.

[R.I.D.E.]

125,000 btu per gallon for gasoline.

80,000 btu for E85.

Yes you can run hugher compression in an engine with E85, and yes if it can handle either fuel it will not work really well with E85.

I respectfully disagree with the belief that you can get the same power for a similar volume of each fuel, due to the fact that your engine would have to be 125/80ths more efficient to produce the same power with E85.

Thats better than a 50% increase in engine efficiency.

regards
gary

[dkjones96]

Originally Posted by aalb1

No need to datalog unless you want to get specifics with your car.

Specifics would be what I'm after because I want to know why there is a change.

I don't think you can get exactly the same mileage out of an E85 vehicle only but in building the engine to the fuel you would be increasing efficiency. I guess the only way to know would be to try it...

[thisisntjared]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

I respectfully disagree with the belief that you can get the same power for a similar volume of each fuel, due to the fact that your engine would have to be 125/80ths more efficient to produce the same power with E85.

Thats better than a 50% increase in engine efficiency.

regards
gary

nobody is saying that you get more power for a similar *amount* of fuel, you can make more power by putting in a lot more fuel with e85. i believe its stoich is also significantly lower.

[suspendedhatch]

Nitrogen is plentiful in the air but doesn't react unless combustion temps are abnormally high (or if your engine is diesel). And you'd know it because you'd fail smog on NOx emissions.

[R.I.D.E.]

Originally Posted by dkjones96

The reduction in mileage is a result of it being a flex fuel vehicle. If the engine was built to run only E85 it'd get close to the same mileage. The engine needs to be able to run 87 octane gas so they build the engine for that. Putting a fuel that is at 105 octane like E85 is will cause a reduction in mileage even if it was straight gasoline.

My response was directed at this statement.

It is my understanding that Indy car engines run compressions in the range of 16 to 1 on pure alcohol. It may be E85 now. That is the main reason why flex fuel vehicles get poor mileage. the Nissan Titan is rated at 13 city on regular and 9 on E85.

You could probably improve the 9 MPG with much higher compression but then it probably would not be very good on any pump gasoline.

Now if you were using my variable compression engine design you could adjust the compression to take advantage of the fuels volatility.

regards
gary

[Pete]

Given the air taken in for combustion is 78 % Nitrogen by volume the added amount in gasoline would be fairly small by comparison I suggest.

However nitrogen can help with strong bonds and subsequently strong explosions in mixtures like nitroglycerine and nitromethane.

I have yet to see it here but I will try it when it arrives.

Pete.