Synthetic Oil vs. Natural Oil

[Matt Timion]

I just had my oil changed today and they put in synthetic oil. Instantly I noticed my RPMs were lower. Usually my car idles between 1200rpm and 1500rpm (I know this is high, but I havn't adjusted it yet) and now it is idling around 1000rpm.

Has anyone else noticed this when switching to synthetic? I know that there has been a debate on the benefits of switching to synthetic for years, but it seems to me to be a no-brainer.

I havn't noticed a mpg gain yet, as I've only driving about 10 miles since getting my oil changed, but the lower RPMs indicate that I WILL get a MPG gain from switching to synthetic.


What say you?

[nrgrebel]

I've always seen noticeable increases in gas mileage running synthetics. All of my vehicles have synthetic lubricants from bumper to bumper. However... one would think since your rpms decreased your mileage would too! Ideally you should see higher rpms at the same throttle position and fuel flow. In the past I've often had to adjust idle speeds down because the use of synthetics would increase my idle rpms. Also, all synthetics are NOT the same. Some major brand names at one time were pretty decent. They have since reformulated to lower grade hydro cracked base stocks (though the kept prices the same as when they had the higher quality POA's).

[SVOboy]

Interesting idea nrgrebel, I've never heard this before, I'd like to do some research on it, as it makes sense, I think. If you're at a higher rpm for game energy output would you not be making more power for the same fuel flow?

In any case, Matt, what viscosity of oil did they put it, not 0w30 was it? ^_^, I wanna put that in my car next time, but right now it's idling at 750, just so you get and idea.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

Interesting idea nrgrebel, I've never heard this before, I'd like to do some research on it, as it makes sense, I think. If you're at a higher rpm for game energy output would you not be making more power for the same fuel flow?

In any case, Matt, what viscosity of oil did they put it, not 0w30 was it? ^_^, I wanna put that in my car next time, but right now it's idling at 750, just so you get and idea.

They put 10w30 in my car. I might put 0w30 in my engine after the swap, but I don't want to do anything too drastic until after the engine is swapped.

I guess this weekend will be a good measure of my gas mileage. I'm driving from Salt Lake City, UT to Las Vegas, NV tomorrow morning. This will be my base mileage, and then on the way back I'll put acetone in the gas tank and measure my mileage on the way up. I'll also monitor RPM and speed in the event that going uphill/downhill have any effect on the gas mileage.

[SVOboy]

Don't forget to pull your negative cable or hazard fuse for a few minutes to reset the ecu after you have let the acetone mix in a little bit.

[MetroMPG]

my understanding of synthetic vs mineral is that you'll notice an efficiency improvement at low temps only. synthetic has better viscosity stability and pourability than equivalent weight mineral oils at low temperatures (mineral gets much thicker).

so the only time the engine is running more efficiently on synthetics is from start-up until it reaches normal operating temperature. once warmed, there's no difference.

have a read through mobiloil.com - you'll see they don't promise efficiency gains. just improved performance under "extreme" conditions. if they could promise gains in mpg across the board, you can be sure it would be all over their marketing.

[rh77]

Since the molecule size of synthetic oil is much smaller than mineral-based oils, older/higher mileage engines tend to leak or burn synthetic pretty quickly as it creeps between old gaskets, seals, and rings. Just keep an eye on the level over time...

RH77

[jamescartagena]

Here is an email that I received from an Amsoil dealer and member of Society of Automotive Engineers. I'm partial to Amsoil as I've tested it and use it in both my vehicles. I've noticed a solid 1 mpg gain in my F150 pickup.

Thanks for the update James. AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30 Severe Service is one of the very best and is a 35,000 mile/1-year oil. Change the AMSOL Super Duty oil filter every 12,500 miles/6-months (note that this fall AMSOIL has 25,000 mile oil filters coming out, an exclusive industry first patented nanofiber technology). If you do not put 35,000 miles per year on then the 5W-30 (ASL) or the 10W-30 (ATM) are also excellent choices and both are 25,000 mile/1-year lubricants. All AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants meet and far exceed all manufacturer specifications as well as API Specifications.

AMSOIL Series 3000 5W-30 HDD is the most advanced chemistry product AMSOIL offers and is also a 25,000 mile/1-year oil in non-commercial gas engine passenger cars and light truck applications. It has the beefiest additive package of all AMSOIL motor oils and resists oil breakdown from heat, blow-by chemicals and oxygen up to 10 times longer than conventional oils. It is also an excellent severe duty fleet type oil for applications such as police and delivery fleets.

the AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30 Severe Service is a racing oil and of a different chemistry than the 10W-30 and 5W-30. I have been a Ford Engineer and Lubrication Specialist for over 20 years and we often use the 0W-30 in the 800 Hp Ford/Roush Nascars as it has a shear strength better than most 50W oils and transfers heat more efficiently than heavier oils. Only about 60% of the engine cooling is done by the coolant and the rest is done by the oil via heat transfer. The 10W-30 and 5W-30 would not be good choices for racing. The 5W-30 ASL product code and 10W-30 ATM are both 25,000 mile/1-year oils where the 0W-30 is a 35,000 mile/1-year oil. The 4-ball wear test is also run at a different load, temp and RPM than the other 2 products so they cannnot be compared in that area. The 0W-30 does not thin out to a 0W as it gets hot. It stays a 30W just like the 10W-30 and the 5W-30. They are ALL 30 weight oils and each one can be beneficial in a specific application. The 10W-30 is a better oil under certain instances for higher mileage engines as it has a lower volatility. 10W-40 High Performance is a heavier duty oil for severe off road, towing and RV type use and is also a 25,000 mile/1-year oil.

I am here to help anytime and if you decide to become a dealer please let me know.

Best Regards,
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Dave Mann
Lubrication Specialist - Truck/Automotive Engineer
Society of Automotive Engineers Professional Member
Performance Oil Technology, L.L.C.
www.performanceoiltechnology.com
1-888-879-1362
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[CosmicMC]

The debate about synthetics versus dino oil usually turns into a religious one rather than one based on facts. People hear some slick marketing somewhere and it gets stuck in their heads as the word of god. The fact is that synthetic oil has some properties that are technically superior to conventional motor oils. Another fact is that in most circumstances, those technical superiorities don't amount to much more than a tiny hill of beans when it comes to engine longevity and fuel efficiency, and they will probably cost you more money in the long run.

jamescartagena's post above removes a lot of credibility from this entire web site. He wants you to buy Amsoil and become an Amsoil dealer not because it's good for you or your car or your wallet but because it benefits his wallet. He's a salesman, and he's here because he doesn't want to pay for advertisements. It's unfortunate that the administration of gassavers.org allows someone to advertise for free on the site. Amsoil is a multi-level marketing scheme. You know the difference between a dead possum on the highway and a dead Amsoil salesman on the highway? There are swerve marks before the possum.

So let's use Amsoil synthetics as an example of how synthetics are mostly useless. This is an easy one. Amsoil says certain of their products are good for 25,000 miles or 1 year. That's for normal driving. For severe service it's 15,000 miles or 1 year. All of that depends on you using an Amsoil oil filter and changing it in 6 months or half the mileage interval. That oil costs $6.35 per quart, and the filters are $10-$12 each. A name-brand, high-quality conventional motor oil costs about $2.00 per quart, and you can get a high-quality oil filter for $5-$6. so Amsoil costs over 3x more than regular oil. OK, so let's say your car takes 4 quarts of oil, your driving doesn't fall into the severe service category, and you drive 12,500 miles per year.

Here's the scenario: You have a recent model GM car with the Oil Life Monitor system that calculates the remaining lifetime of your motor oil based on mileage, temperatures, engine RPMs, and other factors. You changed your oil with Havoline 10W-30 and a $5.00 AC-Delco oil filter one year ago and drove 11,000 miles, and the Oil Change light just illuminated on your dashboard. You do a used oil analysis on that used conventional oil at a cost of $20 and it shows that the oil was protecting your engine just fine when you drained it. So your oil change cost you a total of $13 and with the analysis $33.

If you had used Amsoil, you would have paid $25.40 for the 4 quarts of oil, plus another $20-$24 for two Amsoil filters, so without even doing the analysis, you have already paid $47 for an oil change instead of $13. You have the analysis done on the Amsoil oil and you find that it also was protecting your engine just fine. What have you gained by using Amsoil? Was it worth the 362% higher cost of Amsoil?

The days of 3000 mile oil changes are gone, but that's what Amsoil still quotes in their numbers, and the latest Oil Life Monitor system from GM will extend your oil change interval to 12,500 miles if you drive the car normally and not in severe service. GM wouldn't tell you to go 12,500 miles before getting an oil change if it was going to damage your engine because it would give them an even worse reputation for quality compared to the Japanese automakers. New engines and new engine oils are far, far better than they were even a few years ago, and as time goes on, Amsoil and synthetic oils in general become less and less relevant. They'll quote you all kinds of 4-ball wear tests and tons and tons of totally irrelevant facts and statistics. All you need to remember is this: When was the last time you heard of somebody who changed their oil regularly with ANY kind of oil having their engine die an early death because of lubrication problems? That's all that matters really, but Amsoil would like you to believe your car won't last as long with regular oil. Think for yourself about it. Have you ever heard of such a problem? By the time a car gets that many miles on it, so many other things would have broken and been replaced that the engine would be cheap by comparison.

Do yourself a favor and avoid Amsoil and other synthetic oils. Put the money you save in your vacation or retirement account, donate it to a worthy charity, or take your special someone out for dinner. Don't give it to an oil salesman for a mostly useless product.

[CosmicMC]

The "molecule size" of synthetic oil is not "much smaller" than mineral-based motor oils. The only difference is that synthetics have a more uniform size than mineral oils do. Synthetics are made from natural gas and some other things, not refined from crude oil. Refining is not a perfect process. Some heavier and some lighter things are left in there such as paraffin and benzene. Modern refining has reduced the level of those items to very, very small levels, and in fact some oils marketed as "synthetic" are really just mineral oils that have gone through extra refining steps. This might include some Amsoil products. Synthetics do not cause leaks and it doesn't creep between anything any more than mineral oil does. The additives in synthetic oils may harden or otherwise affect some older seals, and if those seals are already mechanically compromised in some way, leaks can happen where they weren't before, but the root cause is really the mechanical degradation of the engine and not the synthetic oil.

You don't need to avoid synthetics because of worries about leaks. Avoid them because they aren't worth 3x the price, the benefits in reality are negligible or zero, and the salesmen can be slimy, greedy, lying scumbags who pull all kinds of tricks to try and dupe you into buying their products.

[diamondlarry]

jamescartagena's post above removes a lot of credibility from this entire web site. He wants you to buy Amsoil and become an Amsoil dealer not because it's good for you or your car or your wallet but because it benefits his wallet. He's a salesman, and he's here because he doesn't want to pay for advertisements. It's unfortunate that the administration of gassavers.org allows someone to advertise for free on the site. Amsoil is a multi-level marketing scheme. You know the difference between a dead possum on the highway and a dead Amsoil salesman on the highway? There are swerve marks before the possum.

I don't think he said he was a salesman. Actually, what he said was,

Here is an email that I received from an Amsoil dealer and member of Society of Automotive Engineers. I'm partial to Amsoil as I've tested it and use it in both my vehicles. I've noticed a solid 1 mpg gain in my F150 pickup.

He was asked by the other person to contact him if he ever wanted to become a dealer.

I am here to help anytime and if you decide to become a dealer please let me know.

I also use Amsoil in my car but am NOT a dealer for the very reason you stated about James' credibilty. If I were to become a dealer, my credibility would be lost to someones perception that I would be out to drain everyones wallet.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by CosmicMC

jamescartagena's post above removes a lot of credibility from this entire web site. He wants you to buy Amsoil and become an Amsoil dealer not because it's good for you or your car or your wallet but because it benefits his wallet. He's a salesman, and he's here because he doesn't want to pay for advertisements. It's unfortunate that the administration of gassavers.org allows someone to advertise for free on the site. Amsoil is a multi-level marketing scheme. You know the difference between a dead possum on the highway and a dead Amsoil salesman on the highway? There are swerve marks before the possum.

Admin of Gassavers here...

Just so know you, i understand what you are saying, mostly. I've been leary of sythetic oil myself and have never actually seen evidence one way or another which will confirm the claims that synthetic oil gives better gas mileage. The manufacturers themselves rarely say this. While they may be behind the scenes whispering into people's ears that sythetic oil is the best oil for your car, they never do it publically.

This carries a lot of weight with me. In Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World he pointed out that extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof (of course I'm paraphrasing, but you get my drift). Most of the synthetic oil companies avoid this by never making the claims in the first place.

Now adays, however, anyone can claim that their device improves fuel economy without it really affecting them directly. The makers of the Tornado have managed to sell their snake oil in name brand retail auto parts stores. The "Khaos Turbo Charger" managed to fool even the government of some countries. Remember though, extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof.

Which is the main reason this site was started. Not only is it a geeky hobby of mine, but it is also a place for people to get together and discuss the proofs behind fuel efficiency. I've read the message boards elsewhere and i've seen the websites selling the products.

I'm hoping that this website does not turn out to be like the other ones.

This site has something unique. People can actually call "bull****" when someone makes a claim. A free exchange of ideas allows for people to disagree and require proof. Does pissing in your gastank really help gas mileage? Prove it. Show me numbers.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before but I have a degree in Psychology. I know all about how gullible the human animal is and I know all about how an experiment is supposed to be run. I excel at numbers and math and also know how to crunch the numbers if I need to. I also know what it's like to be in a society where free ideas and information are not only discouraged, but punished. I won't talk more about that in public, if you want to know what I'm talking about, feel free to send me a private message. The last thing that we want to do here is discourage people from posting what they know, or what they think is true. It allows everyone to be educated, edified, and in the end, as DiamondLarry as said in the past, we all win.

So as Administrator I will not delete a post simply because I don't know it to be true. I will also not be the one who asks for proof constantly. I think a group of people who really care about what we're trying to do here and who are sick of junk science, scams, and rips offs will collectively call "bull****" on each other. If you call bull**** on me and I really believe what I'm saying I will be delighted to prove it to you. I'll only get offended if I don't believe it myself.

So, you've called bull**** on sythetic oil. Now it's time for people to prove you wrong, if they can. I'm interested in the results as well.

[rh77]

I'm right there with you on this one, Matt. This board tries to maintain the highest integrity of the scientific process. Clean Data and Analysis. No butt-dynos here. Prove it legitimately. If a salesman comes on here, we can choose to ignore or test the product. I think we try to keep it friendly too...

RH77

[Compaq888]

you got to have proof is right. Like my mpg is true because I filled up and didn't make a number. I will tell you right now. I have used Mobil 1 before and I even drove in my sweet spot and it would never go over 29mpg for freeway ONLY. I now get 30mpg in the mix, that means city and freeway combined. I use royal rurple. I change it every 3k and use a nissan filter because it's better than a FRAM or Mobil filter. I have always used the same gas. Chevron or Shell. So you try to explain how I get 30mpg in the mix when before I got less than 29mpg on the freeway only. Everybody knows I replaced a bunch of parts to get this mpg, and when I got less than 29mpg I had a $485 maintenance where ALL the fluids were changed and all the small stuff was replaced. And I still got 29mpg. The only difference now is I use royal purple and my tires are pumped up 5psi from oem numbers on the door. Which is 32psi.

[CosmicMC]

Well Matt, I'm very happy to hear this. I expected to be banned. In case there is any confusion, you have it right, I call bull**** on synthetic oils and especially Amsoil. I appreciate your forward-thinking attitude.

Let me state for the record that I am not any kind of expert at anything but my job, and that has nothing to do with any kind of car technology or fluids or anything automotive-related whatsoever. I just read a lot and run various experiments on my own for my own amusement, plus I get a warm and tingly feeling from learning the truth, kind of like when you get a new 12-pack of underwear from a humongous retail store chain: Whether you admit it or not, you know you secretly pick those new skivvies out of the drawer in the morning before those crusty old ones because the new ones just feel better, and also because the elastic is still attached to the butt part. That's why I like to find the truth: Because those new Wal-Mart house brand 12 for $1.99 undies make perfect sense when you're in the store. Later on down the road, it's very possible you'll realize that you spend 2/3 of your day adjusting things by walking funny in public and that those undies may have been so affordable because they are forged from recycled fiberglass insulation. But you can still look forward to getting a different brand megapack of new undies and have another new-underwear nirvana experience next week. Anyway, the point is that even being proven wrong is a learning experience, and that's the new Sack O' Skivvies I so desperately crave.

When I think about "gassavers.org," I'm not sure whether that means the site is geared toward conservation of oil or conservation of cash. I am personally strongly biased toward conservation of cash, mostly because I'm not at all interested in helping some anonymous ******* 87-year-old oil company executive buy a bigger yacht and a diamond-encrusted collar for his 26-year-old wife Muffy's pet poodle. Most of the time, saving cash also means saving oil resources. Not always, though, so it's important to make the distinction.

Compaq888, I can't make any sense out of your post. One one side it sounds like you attribute your gas mileage gain to expensive purple oil. On the other side it sounds like you've done lots of other things to try and gain a few MPG, so you really can't point to the oil as the source of the gain. Either way, you're changing synthetic oil at a 3000 mile interval which is a huge waste of time and money. Any gas savings you have from doing that is more than wiped out by your oil change practices. What exactly are you trying to accomplish with your tweaking and tuning? Money savings? If that's the case, I think you could do much better by changing to conventional motor oil, which is recommended by Nissan by the way, and doing a used oil analysis to help you determine what interval would be both safe and also cost less money. Try Blackstone Labs or Dyson Oil Analysis or any one of the many oil analysis laboratories out there. It's typically $20. You could save that much on a single oil change by following their advice instead of making up an oil change schedule based on marketing and speculation. Before you do anything, though, decide exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish. Saving money? Saving oil resources? Just trying to get the highest MPG number possible at any cost so you can sound cool on a web site? So you get 1 MPG better. That's terrific, but what does that 1 MPG cost you? The oil is about 3 times as expensive. Do you make that up in the cost of gas? Is it really worth it??? To me, that's the question to be answered on gassavers.org. I'll offer whatever proof and hard data I can to help in those efforts.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by CosmicMC

When I think about "gassavers.org," I'm not sure whether that means the site is geared toward conservation of oil or conservation of cash. I am personally strongly biased toward conservation of cash, mostly because I'm not at all interested in helping some anonymous ******* 87-year-old oil company executive buy a bigger yacht and a diamond-encrusted collar for his 26-year-old wife Muffy's pet poodle. Most of the time, saving cash also means saving oil resources. Not always, though, so it's important to make the distinction.

Excellent point. I've touched on this a few times, but not very securely. Originally my plan was to save money. The goal was to build a car that could get 50mpg for a fraction of the cost of buying a hybrid. That is still sort of my goal. The fact is, however, that from a purely monitary standpoint I'll never make the money back I've put into this car. I've purchased a new transmission, a new engine, I've painted it, bought new trim to make it look pretty, new seats, hardware for cruise control, new rims and tires (twice) and other little things that I can't even begin to add up. I've probably spent the value of the car in parts and repairs. Now it's a hobby more than anything else. My hobby is to get high gas mileage. That isn't much different than people dropping $400 on a carbon fiber hood so they can save 5lbs on their total weight. Actually, that is more wasteful than what I'm doing.

I will probably never break even. I work at home and drive a total of something like 5000-6000 miles a year in my car. That figure is with the road trips to Las Vegas twice a year. It's ridiculous how little I drive. It's about more than money though now. Part of my motivation is now about doing my part to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. If 25% of our population worked at home and had very fuel efficient cars then I guess we wouldn't have much of an oil crisis to worry about.

As for the website's purpose, it's up to the user. I really don't care if people are here to save money, help the enviroment, or just to reduce foreign dependance on oil. To me it's all the same in the end. If people with different agendas can get together for a common goal, then we all win.

Originally Posted by CosmicMC

Before you do anything, though, decide exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish. Saving money? Saving oil resources? Just trying to get the highest MPG number possible at any cost so you can sound cool on a web site? So you get 1 MPG better. That's terrific, but what does that 1 MPG cost you? The oil is about 3 times as expensive. Do you make that up in the cost of gas? Is it really worth it??? To me, that's the question to be answered on gassavers.org. I'll offer whatever proof and hard data I can to help in those efforts.

this is another one of my problems with sythetic oil. I looked online and saw it was $5/quart. I guess if you do your oil changes yourself you pretty much break even when compared to having the guy at Jiffy Lube do it for you. $20 vs. $20. Right now though $20 is 10 gallons of gasoline. I get 33 mpg (right now, at least). Is using the purple oil going to save me 330 miles worth of gas per oil change? if I change my oil every 3000 miles and get a 1mpg improvement, yes it will. but my engine also burns oil, so I'll end up putting more oil into the engine during the experiment. I also don't see the marginal benefit of doing something that makes me break even.

I'm blabbing now, but I hope you get my drift. I need to go eat lunch and put my new tires on my n600.

[n0rt0npr0]

I cannot prove Synthetics cause leaks. In 6 out of my last 6 vehicles I've visually encountered increased oil seepage AFTER I went from dino juice to synthetic. Didn't matter whether it was Royal Purple or Mobil One, after 500 miles of use, new spots of oil have occurred on my driveway. Mileage? I've made the switch as early as *edit* 20K to as late as 230K.
One advantage to synthetics I've found is a little better overall fuel mileage(went from 22mpg to 24mpg in one vehicle but generally 7% increase in economy)
I've done tests on dino oil, and I can't get dino oil to last longer than 8,000 miles in any 1988-1994 GM 60 degree V6 engine. My synthetics are lasting 25,000 miles by comparison. Using the same $6 filters too. Over three times the longevity there.
$13.50 for dino oil change
$32.00 for synthetic oil change

After 25,000 miles, I save $8 on the oil changes + the time involved to do them in my driveway + $431.22 worth of gas.
Well one more thing, I am not figuring the cost of "topping off" but as you can see with those gas savings, I wouldn't really need to.

So with 14 years of synthetic oil usage, I can conclude that synthetic oil use does lead to increased oil consumption but still significantly less overall than if you were to keep doing Dino oil changes every 8,000 miles.

We're here to contribute ways to make us less dependant on crude oil reserves, and this is just a small drop in the bucket but every drop counts.
~Will

[SVOboy]

I might as well chime in and say that I dunno much about this difference, but my family has always used full synthetics and none of the cars have leaked oil.

[n0rt0npr0]

*

[n0rt0npr0]

You should chime up and list ALL the models that have not leaked the oil. It will help guide me to my next vehicle choice in the future.

[SVOboy]

Current 1991 Honda CRX DX
Mom's current 1993 Toyota Camry DX (run synthetic for the full life of the vehicle)
Dad's BMW something something, dad's plymouth breeze (sucks anyway)

[CosmicMC]

So Will, do you have a long commute every day or do you take lots of long trips? How long do you go between filter changes?

I'm curious to see those used oil analyses. Please post them. I don't know what property of synthetic oils would give you a 7% fuel economy increase. Amsoil says "AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil is designed to maximize energy efficiency for improved fuel economy. Unlike conventional oils, its uniform molecular structure helps it flow more freely and reduce friction between metal surfaces. Anti-friction additives are included to further improve energy efficiency." The problems with that statement are that once the oil is up to operating temperature, it's a 30 weight oil, just as it says on the bottle, so it doesn't flow any better than any other 30 weight oil, plus every motor oil contains anti-friction additives. If Amsoil thought you could get a 7% increase in gas mileage and save $400, they would tell you that to try and sell more oil, but they don't make any such claims. They include all sorts of 4-ball wear tests and other useless marketing B.S., but they don't tell you that you can get much better gas mileage. That just doesn't add up. I don't believe the mileage numbers you've quoted have anything to do with synthetic oil for that reason.

Here is what Mobil 1 says:

"What's the overall benefit of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology?
Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology exceeds the latest industry and OEM requirements. It is designed for vehicles under warranty and will provide protection for the maximum oil change interval recommended in your owner's manual or by your oil life sensor.

The overall goal for Mobil 1 has always been to protect your engine, even under the most severe conditions, such as cold starting temperatures, extreme high-temperature operations and high-load conditions. Mobil 1 has been formulated with a performance reserve to provide you the peace of mind that your engine is protected during these severe conditions. But Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is not just for extreme service. You can also realize Mobil 1's benefits of improved engine cleanliness and extended engine life under "normal" service."

Nothing at all in there about fuel economy increases. Why not? If it's so great for fuel economy, why aren't they advertising it? Royal Purple says up to a 5% fuel economy gain with no numbers to back it up. Maybe you should give them a testimonial?

[Compaq888]

Originally Posted by CosmicMC

Compaq888, I can't make any sense out of your post. One one side it sounds like you attribute your gas mileage gain to expensive purple oil. On the other side it sounds like you've done lots of other things to try and gain a few MPG, so you really can't point to the oil as the source of the gain. Either way, you're changing synthetic oil at a 3000 mile interval which is a huge waste of time and money. Any gas savings you have from doing that is more than wiped out by your oil change practices. What exactly are you trying to accomplish with your tweaking and tuning? Money savings? If that's the case, I think you could do much better by changing to conventional motor oil, which is recommended by Nissan by the way, and doing a used oil analysis to help you determine what interval would be both safe and also cost less money. Try Blackstone Labs or Dyson Oil Analysis or any one of the many oil analysis laboratories out there. It's typically $20. You could save that much on a single oil change by following their advice instead of making up an oil change schedule based on marketing and speculation. Before you do anything, though, decide exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish. Saving money? Saving oil resources? Just trying to get the highest MPG number possible at any cost so you can sound cool on a web site? So you get 1 MPG better. That's terrific, but what does that 1 MPG cost you? The oil is about 3 times as expensive. Do you make that up in the cost of gas? Is it really worth it??? To me, that's the question to be answered on gassavers.org. I'll offer whatever proof and hard data I can to help in those efforts.

Let me clarify a couple of things. I'm not trying to save money. If I wanted to save money all I have to do is turn the car insurance off and park the car and take the bus to school. Which is $23 a month. Compared to $100 for insurance and $100 for gas. $23>$200.

Next, I did a huge maintenance when I bought the car at the end of 04 and it would only get 28mpg on the freeway and at that time I was using mobil 1.

Now I get 40+mpg on the freeway. If you think it's a fluke then let me give you a math lesson. My car gets 20-22mpg on the street and when I fuel up my average is 30mpg. Now if 50% is city driving and 50% is hwy driving what's going to be the hwy number?
30mpg just doesn't come up like that or a couple dozen gas stations have their pumps broken. I'm kinda doing what Matt is doing, building a high mpg car at the fraction of the price. My goal is 35mpg mixed and that's it.

If I wanted to get the highest mpg at any cost I would syphon gas from around the neighborhood. Let me calculate 5 gallons of free gas and I drive for 150 miles. I don't know how to calculate it I guess whatever number of miles you get from stolen gas that's your mpg.

I'll be looking really cool when gas goes back up to $3 and I'm getting 50mpg on freeway. Not only will I look cool on this website but on the freeway too.

[jamescartagena]

Diamond Larry is correct. I am not an Amsoil dealer. I am just someone who tried a product and found that it worked for me. I do drive 25000 miles a year on my truck and every mpg makes a difference to my wallet. Also, it is much more convenient for me to change the oil once a year and knowing that it is protected for that time as I was changing it more often with Dino oil. I was thinking about becoming a dealer at one time but with a family and two small children, I don't have the time.

[n0rt0npr0]

All of my driving is 75% hwy.

Filter changes are dependant on analysis data, from 8K to 14K

My oil analysis is an easy single number. Values from 0-9
Test equipment? Northern Technologies International Corporation is the make.
LubriSensor Model NI-2B
This is what they call a portable oil analyzer.

I don't know what property of Syn oils would give me the 7% increase either, cosmicmc.

The analyzer works by comparing new oil, to the sample oil for each analysis. It compares the dielectric propertys of the oil samples. The difference is the number 0-9 (for synthetic, 8 is when you are suposed to change it, but I have gone to nine a few times.)

For more reading on the analyzer, go here to read about the "dielectric constant" and here is more about the analyzer

I've given mobil one testimony by the way, they accepted it and never used it and made me agree that IF they ever do, to not expect any finacial benefits. shrug. Royal Purple is too expensive for me to consider giving them testimony.

And maybe there are just too many variables to go start making claims about fuel economy with mobil one. Maybe if they did, and ppl using thier products, away from the labs controlled test situations would start kicking and screaming "false claim, false claim" and woah, with the internet being ever so popular, them ppl could really put a dent in Mobil ones reputation. So they just don't put it out there, better safe than sorry?

[n0rt0npr0]

*

[CosmicMC]

I think the oil analyzer is useless for the purposes you use it for. It is designed for use with large diesel engines and diesel engine oils, not gasoline car engines. They are two completely different beasts. On top of that, the dielectric constant is only one of the four factors they use to determine the lifespan of the oil. The guy who's writing his story about using it is also using it with a diesel engine and Mobil Delvac diesel engine oil. Gas engines don't produce the soot that diesel engines do, and they also don't acidify the oil like a diesel does. The chemistry they used to design the analyzer is totally different from what your engines see, and for that reason I wouldn't trust that thing to tell me when to change my oil. A used oil analysis is the only reliable way to do it.

I don't think the synthetic oil is buying you any mileage increases at all. If you can document the exact conditions under which you came up with this number, we can all judge for ourselves. Lacking that information, I chalk it up to a psychological effect or invalid science. If synthetic oils bought you better gas mileage, their advertising departments would be all over it, especially with gas prices where they are. But strangely, they don't advertise that. Doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm not judging you, but I don't think your testimony holds water. I've been wrong before, so somebody rip my ideas apart and show me why I'm wrong.

[SVOboy]

Switching to synthetic lubricants - - engine oil, diff, Amsoil C+ Mopar-spec
transmission fluid, and syn greases in wheel bearings is good for 2-5% MPG
improvement. That is only about 0.5 mpg but every little bit helps.

Found this on a dodge ram forum.

<a href=http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=6307d7191bb2c4c3bb9c69b5a0a7a6a9& t=28088&page=1&pp=20 target=_blank>Source</a>

[CosmicMC]

If you go on to read the rest of that article, as I just did, and you made all the modifications they recommend to save gas mileage, your mileage would go up by a minimum of 7.45 MPG, which would be about 40% better mileage than advertised on the window stickers. What do you think are the chances that Dodge would let a 40% mileage increase pass them by just because they didn't tell you to lower the tailgate, use different tires, index the spark plugs, use synthetic oil, etc. That whole article is a nice heaping, steaming pile of speculation, wild ideas, old husband's tales, and junk science. As if that wasn't enough, they said that lowering the tailgate would increase mileage, but removing it would decrease mileage, which is counter to the water testing that Mythbusters did. Those guys showed that you will get the best mileage with the tailgate UP because the aerodynamics created by the auto manufacturers take the closed tailgate into account in the design and deliberately create a "cushion" of air circulation behind the cab which deflects the airflow over the top of the tailgate so it doesn't create much wind resistance. If you lower the tailgate, the air flow comes down right on top of the tailgate and decreases mileage by increasing aerodynamic drag.

There are a few tiny nuggets of joy in that article, but for the most part it's a whole lot of hogwash, and even those few nuggets of joy cost so much to implement that it would take many, many miles to ever recover the cost of the changes. That's why Dodge didn't do it at the factory. If they wanted better mileage from their vehicles, they shouldn't have bought pickup trucks with 340 horsepower V-8 engines.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by CosmicMC

If they wanted better mileage from their vehicles, they shouldn't have bought pickup trucks with 340 horsepower V-8 engines.

Can I give you a prize?