Need advice/info-Metro/HF related

[Lance]

I'm in Phoenix, just got a route related job at about 250 mi per day for a 5 day week. It is sub-contracted, so the more money I save in gas, the more money stays in my pocket.

In looking for a Metro/Swift/Firefly/Civic HF/CRX HF, I am running into problems sifting through the BS.

HONDA

Is there a shorthand for being able to tell if a CRX/Civic is an HF? When looking at AutoTrader and Craigslist for the Hondas, they don't always post that it is an HF or may be saying it is one when not an HF.

Are there key years to look for?

Specific alphanumeric in the VIN?

What about "retro-ing" a hot-rodded unit and selling the "aftermarkets"?

Is a "D 15" the high mpg engine I am seeking? Aka: D15 VTEC ?? What is the engine name, if not?

Currently, I am leaning more towards a Suzuki based unit because the CRXs and Civics are getting ragged out by over-revving teenage drivers/owners. Nevermind the car theft aspect and the insurance being more (I think) due to a higher accident to make/model ratio because of their popularity.

However, having owned a Honda before, I like the quality of the interior and amenities. Here in AZ, A/C is a must. Especially if one is always out of doors driving continuously. Yet, all of the Hondas are either trashed or overdone. So, I guess I'll end up finding a Suzuki based unit (SBU?), because one would have a better chance to find a solid sbu than a Honda.

SUZUKI BASED UNITS

Carsurvey.Org shows that a great many people are very satisfied with these cars. Personally, until now, I've never given them a moments thought.

Is there, via an alphanumeric in the VIN, a way to determine if one is looking at a XFI? Although I have yet to see one for sale, I keep hoping someone will be selling one without knowing fully what it is for a good price.

How's the interior items? I.e: Knobs break easy; A/C is only so-so; etc,.

IS insurance cheaper than a CRX/Civic?

Lastly, I sure would appreciate any and all recommendations you have in where to look for these cars that has the best price. I've checked eBay, Autotrader and Craigslist. Have I missed any? EBay has good prices, but are too far from Phoenix to justify the cost of shipping/flying to.
Thank you for any help and for anything I missed.

[GeoMetry]

I can help you a bit. XFI's were only manufactured from 1989 to 1994 and to the best of my knowledge they never came with AC. I believe that an S in the fifth position of the VIN would indicate that is was an XFI. I have seen them advertized with AC but I think it would be aftermarket AC. Main problem is rust at the front suspension attachment points and the floorboards and rocker panels. If I needed cheap transportation and didn't care how it looked only the suspension rust would make me not purchase the car. Window cranks often fail especially on the drivers side especially on cars without AC. EGR valves get clogged so they will fail emmissions tests (which can help you pick one up cheap.) This also causes the exhaust valves to get burnt. Cars of that age the catylitic converters get clogged. Getting hard to find parts in junkyards for these cars around the Washington DC area but not too bad on the internet. My 1994 Geo metro 3 cylinder engine went over 200K before I had to replace the valves and piston rings. If you want one with AC look for a 1994 because the earlier models used the old type of refrigerant that you can't buy anymore. I don't know anything about the 1995+ models except that they stopped making XFIs.

[SVOboy]

There is no civic HF, firstly.

Anything with a sunroof is not an hf, and there are like 50 kinds of d15, only the d15b6 is the HF engine.

Sorry to be abbreviated but someone else will fill in the vin stuff.

[MetroMPG]

Lance, brand issues aside, between those 2 cars I would make the choice based on what kind of driving you will be doing:

- If primarily sub/urban, the Metro's smaller engine and lighter weight makes it the one with the higher FE potential.

- If primarily highway/freeway, the Civic VX (using lean burn at cruise) is the car to beat.

[MakDiesel]

'92-'95 Civic hatchback VX engine is the D15Z1 (VTEC-E...also known as the D15B in Japan but there are many versions of this, ranging from 92-130 hp)
'88-'91 CRX HF engine is the D15B6, 62 ponies, 8 valves, an overgrown sewing machine. The HF has no sunroof, a clock delete option, has "HF" on the top-right corner of the hatch glass (facing the rear), mine is artic white and I know of a light blue version, etc. I know little to nothing about Mertos., sorry. Mak

[Lance]

GeoMetry:thanks a lot for the large amount of comprehensive info. I will be putting it to good use. Knowing about the rust and window handle is especially good to know, with all the Katrina cars hitting the market. That EGR thing is a very good insight as well. Thx

SVOboy: Good stuff here too. I got wind of the Civic HF from FuelEconomy.Gov via their 1986 list. Maybe it is a Canadian or European version or something. Thx

MetroMPG: Good point. It is right at half and half between city and highway. Gonna look up and try to find a VX too. I see that a 92, via FuelEconomy.Gov, has a 4 MPG diff between two of the same models. I wonder why? Nonetheless, a VX is another excellent option. Maybe one of these will have A/C with cruise and not be ragged out. Thx for the heads up on the VX. Have you seen any with A/C and CC? BTW I bookmarked your website. Some additional good info there regardless of car bought. Thx

Mak: I'll definately be looking for the HF on the glass. That helps. Not sure what you meant by: clock delete option. A clock is optional??? In any case, looking for the HF when an ad has pix will help. Knowing the B6 and the Z1 will help when questioning owners of those years too. Thx

Again, I obviously came to the right place. Judging by no one speaking to finding a good deal outside of the three mentioned says I covered them all. If you have any further thoughts regarding these cars, I certainly will welcome any additional advice.
Thank you all again very much! You'll help me to make a more informed decision/purchase.

P.S. If one found a Civic with a bad motor, what would one have to keep in mind if one wanted to change out with a VX/Z1 motor? Mainly a Torque output and tranny issue...yes?? As long as the Civic was a 92-95...yes?? Are all VXs hatchbacks? Thx agn.

[krousdb]

Only CRX's were available in HF. The VX with 4MPG lower FE is the California version which does not have lean burn. VX's were only produced from 92-95 ans all were hatchbacks.

[Brian D.]

All VX's are indeed a hatchback. As far as CRX HF's, I would just add the following: If the car was kept stock, you'll notice that the wheels on the HF (the 13" steelies) are unique. They are unlike the DX steelies in that these have small circles inside the pattern...rather than the DX oval cutouts. Also, the Steering wheel on the DX is a "3-spoke" (just like the Si), whereas the HF has a 2-spoke steering wheel. The DX seats are a larger, fuller seat, whereas the HF is an obviously bare bones, lighter seat. The HF will come without a digital clock in the center vent area of the dash...whereas the Si & DX both HAVE the clock. Under the hood you'll notice that the HF & Si share the same type of fuel injection (MPFI ?), but the DX is the only CRX that has the single-point throttle-body injector (like many other civics of '88-91). I have no idea whether or not that's an advantage for FE or not. (anyone?). Finally, the original DX valve cover will say "16-valve", just like the Si model. The HF, however just has it's little 8-valve squirrels under its valve cover. Sorry to drag on with this...but I hope it helps.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by Lance

GeoMetry:thanks a lot for the large amount of comprehensive info. I will be putting it to good use. Knowing about the rust and window handle is especially good to know, with all the Katrina cars hitting the market. That EGR thing is a very good insight as well. Thx

SVOboy: Good stuff here too. I got wind of the Civic HF from FuelEconomy.Gov via their 1986 list. Maybe it is a Canadian or European version or something. Thx

MetroMPG: Good point. It is right at half and half between city and highway. Gonna look up and try to find a VX too. I see that a 92, via FuelEconomy.Gov, has a 4 MPG diff between two of the same models. I wonder why? Nonetheless, a VX is another excellent option. Maybe one of these will have A/C with cruise and not be ragged out. Thx for the heads up on the VX. Have you seen any with A/C and CC? BTW I bookmarked your website. Some additional good info there regardless of car bought. Thx

Mak: I'll definately be looking for the HF on the glass. That helps. Not sure what you meant by: clock delete option. A clock is optional??? In any case, looking for the HF when an ad has pix will help. Knowing the B6 and the Z1 will help when questioning owners of those years too. Thx

Again, I obviously came to the right place. Judging by no one speaking to finding a good deal outside of the three mentioned says I covered them all. If you have any further thoughts regarding these cars, I certainly will welcome any additional advice.
Thank you all again very much! You'll help me to make a more informed decision/purchase.

P.S. If one found a Civic with a bad motor, what would one have to keep in mind if one wanted to change out with a VX/Z1 motor? Mainly a Torque output and tranny issue...yes?? As long as the Civic was a 92-95...yes?? Are all VXs hatchbacks? Thx agn.

Just FYI, all of the CRXs showed up as "civics" until 1988. My wife's 1987 CRX actually says "civic" on it. That's some weird honda trivia for ya.

Anyway, an engine swap is doable in any 92-95 civic without much of an issue. The properly geared transmission (from a VX or a CX) would get you an extra 5-10 MPG.

A swap like this is much easier on a 92-95 then it is on a different year civic (like I did).

[MakDiesel]

To clarify for the visual learners:

Check for the HF sticker


Check the clock delete (below the dash vents at the top):


There is no telling if these are the stock wheels or not...are these the right ones Brian?:


Bone stock D15B6 (minus air box):


That's all for now.
Mak

[Ryland]

a 1985 thru 1987 crx hf will not be fuel injected, but insted have a carburator and a silver aluminum air cleaner houseing insted of the black painted steel, the early crx hf's were tecnicaly a Civic CRX (HF, SI, DX or base modle) two door cupe, in 1988 they droped the civic name plate off the car, and off the parts list and manuals.
altho after market sunroofs were installed, they are commenly the glass pop up sunroofs, not the steel ones that slide in the a cavity in the roof, I don't think any crx hf, or civic vx ever came with a rear windshild wiper.
I have a civic vx that is my daily driver that I love, and it's nice if you need a back seat, or to carry any amount of weight or cargo, befor that I drove a '85 crx hf, it was nice, solid, very few problems, but old, and sligtly abusted, it mostly suffers from a bit of rust, and bad rings (abused by past owner), we also just got a 2000 metro hatch back that I just got to drive yesterday, and it's rather comfertable, but I must say that the controles in it are not as well thought out as they are in the honda's, things like wipers switch, and placement of the turn signal switch, and at 250 miles per day, that might drive you crazy.

I'm not sure how many miles you can get on a metro, but all my crx has 185k and my civic has 226k, and if it wasn't for rust (from salt on wisconsin roads) and abusive drivers, the crx should be able to get well over 200K.

[krousdb]

I see we have something in common. We both own VX's and we both owned 85 HF's. I put 275000 miles on my 85HF in 5 years and then traded it in 1990 for a 286 computer and a 26" TV. It was still going strong but did burn some oil.

[Lance]

Krousdb:Yeah, those damn 286s are known to burn a lot of oil. lol A 4 mile decrease in the MPG due to Cal emissions makes perfect sense. I should've thought of that.

Ryland: After talking to you guys, I am starting to lean towards the VX or HF as a first choice. Provided I can find one. They (Hondas) are well put together. Maybe even a touch better than Toyotas for the interiors, but Toys are a touch more reliable. In my experience.

Mak: LOL! Damn Mak... judging by those pix you are an optimistic soul! lol

Matt: Intriguing. How do you mean? "The properly geared transmission (from a VX or a CX) would get you an extra 5-10 MPG." You mean an HF? Would one get that milege increase by putting a VX or HF tranny on a non-VTEC/E engine? So your saying that if one was to have to do a swap, doing so with a 92-95 is much easier than say an older version...yes?

Brian: Thanks for the added visual checklist for ad pix. More good stuff!

Thanks again gang, yer the best!

[Lance]

character(s) in a VX VIN?

My thinking is that the "N" in the NH (2HGEHxxxxNHxxxxxx) is the signifier for a highest MPG Civic VX. Yes? No? Anyone?
Thx

[MetroMPG]

One last bit of info for the Metros:

Originally Posted by Ryland

I'm not sure how many miles you can get on a metro

Can't answer that. I think Mark (95Metro) has about 200k kms on his. My first one had about 150k when I sold it.

2 cars is hardly representative, but my Suzukiclones have been the most trouble-free cars I've ever owned, including both of my Hondas (86 Civic / 89 Accord). Hey - I'm just as surprised as you are. And it's a pretty long list too - 15 or so.

I'll just say that if I had an even mix of driving to do, and I had the opportunity to get either a VX or a Metro in similarly good condition, I'd have a tough time deciding.

[Ryland]

on 1992-1995 civic hatchbacks:
first three 2HG say that it was made in canada
next three EH2 is a 1,500 cc engine, EH3 is a 1,600 cc engine (si)
next number is 3 for a 5 speed, 4 for the automatic (altho ebay sometimes gets it' wrong from the vin... and I've never heard of a vx with an automatic)
next number is 4 for the CX, 5 for the DX, 9 for the VX or 8 for the SI.
Next is a letter for the year, N is 1992, I would asume each letter is as years fallow.
Next letter is H for it being made in Ontario Canada.

the rest of the number is the serial number.

I have the whole facotry shop manual for 1992 civic's in a PDF file, I'll try to get it online at some point, it's all one folder, and not really indexed, so it's hard to search, and would be a large file to download on a slow connection.

[Ryland]

you also wanted to know the years differnt cars were made, right?

1984 was the first year of the crx it came with either a 1.3 or a 1.5 engine, no HF name on it yet but the 1.3 was suposed to get mileage in the 50's, with the old epa system it was rated at 62mpg or something, but in 1985 they updated the system for faster highway speedlimits so epa ratings droped that year for the exact same car.
1985 thru 1987 was the first generation Civic CRX HF, 1.5L carburated 58hp gas engine, really light body.
1988 thru 1991 was the 2nd generation of the CRX (with of course an HF modle), it came with a heavier, larger body, fuel injection, and an increse in horse power, altho the epa mileage I think stayed about the same, low to mid 50's.
1992 thru 1996 the crx became the del sol, and didn't have a fuel efficent modle other then the base modle, and that was epa rated at I think the high 30's, maybe low 40's, and were a really heavy body for a 2 seater.
1992-1995 the civic hatch back had a VX trim leavle, 1.5 vtec-e engine, striped down body, 8 spoke alloy rims (a good way to identify them, mileage minded people that took care of their car are going to keep the rims, or something simaler most of the time), and they had a lower front air dam on the bottem lip of the bumper, no rear wiper, side mirrer is an extra, outer rubber door bumper is an extra, mud flaps are an extra, clock as an extra, a/c as an extra, no cruse controle, no power windows, no power locks, no power mirrers.
1996 thru 1999 or 2000??? the fuel efficent car avalible was the HX, a 2 door cupe, mid to high 40's for mileage, only avalible as a cupe (2 door with a trunk), it has a 1.6 vtec-e, and I've heard of a number of them with an automatic... I can see why they were an unapealing car.

then they started with the hybrids, mileage didn't go up much, but the price sure did.

[GeoMetry]

Ryland, Sounds like you know your CRXs! When did Honda start using the newer refrigerant in its AC systems?

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by GeoMetry

Ryland, Sounds like you know your CRXs! When did Honda start using the newer refrigerant in its AC systems?

1993/1994 is when the switch happened.

some people read science fiction novels, I prefer shop manuals.

[MakDiesel]

Originally Posted by Lance

Mak: LOL! Damn Mak... judging by those pix you are an optimistic soul! lol

I prefer persistant.

As she sits today...



Still needs the Z1 engine installed, and wired, Vacced, then needs suspension, brakes, interior, exterior, etc...she will run by Jan. 1, '07.
There's the optimistic part Mak