How well would a de-hybridized Insight peform (FE wise)?

[MetroMPG]

I do have to wonder - and I'm certain this has been raised elsewhere - how well the Insight would perform, FE wise, without its hybrid components. I.E: essentially a Honda Metro . Is this even possible?

Theoretically, its pulse & glide capabilities and highway fuel economy figures shouldn't be drastically affected.

Of course, its ICE would have to be pushed much harder to achieve the same level of street performance in the city, so FE would suffer noticeably there, but in the hands of a hypermiler???

I've seen a few advertised, and their prices are shockingly low (pardon the pun), considering their initial cost: EG: $9K CDN ($8082 US) asking price for this 2000 with just 75,000 km (46,602 miles) on the clock:

http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/detai...9&adid=5513866

Another plus is the rust-resistant aluminum construction means older ones will last longer in the rust belt.



I imagine in a couple of years, the resale value of an out-of-warranty car needing an IMA battery or DC-DC replacement would be ripe for the picking - that's what has me wondering...

[MetroMPG]

I see one challenge to de-hybridizing is the car has no alternator - it's got accessory power from a DC-DC converter off the IMA pack.

But even without IMA, its 3-cyl has a better power:weight ratio than the Metro.

[Brian D.]

I heard those IMA's are pretty pricey. Any idea how long they last? I'm sure some 50K+ miler-per-year commuter must know by now. There are probably at least a few of those cars with close to 200K on them by now.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I'd say pretty well. You'd be able to hit 60mpg@50mph cruising np, and P&G in that range should allow for ~80-100mpg. I've heard P&G nets ~80mpg@55mph average including city/stops/slows, so that's ~65-70mph freeway. You could add one of those electric fifth wheels with a suitable battery pack and a ?V DC->12V DC converter.

[MetroMPG]

Surely it would beat 60 mpg @ 50 without IMA, wouldn't it? The Cd .31-ish Blackfly beats that currently. Don't forget the Insight's lean burn capabilities.

Dan saw 75 mpg @ 55 mph in his lean-burn VX. Though he also reported the lean-burn window is wider on the VX than the Insight.

But... I wonder how clever IMA is in holding the Insight in lean burn once it's there by providing small amounts of boost when needed...

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Probably, but not by a whole lot, whatever the percentage reduction in weight is? The EPA highway test has the car bouncing around, so if you set the cruise control at 55mph you should get lean burn plus weight reduction. The only serious problem I can think of is how IMA couples with the ECU. Would pulling the system result in some serious wonkiness?

[zpiloto]

http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/

According to greenhybrid they averarge 64 MPG with the 5 speed. It seem to me that a lot of folks that have hybrids just drive them like regular cars. The number they have listed for the Prius is about what you would get if you just drove it like a non hybrid. So I would think that in the hands of a seasoned hypermiler you could easily throw 30% on top of that depending on commute.

[krousdb]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Surely it would beat 60 mpg @ 50 without IMA, wouldn't it? The Cd .31-ish Blackfly beats that currently. Don't forget the Insight's lean burn capabilities.

Dan saw 75 mpg @ 55 mph in his lean-burn VX. Though he also reported the lean-burn window is wider on the VX than the Insight.

But... I wonder how clever IMA is in holding the Insight in lean burn once it's there by providing small amounts of boost when needed...

The Insight will beat the crap out of 60MPG at 50 MPH. At cruising speeds and when using DWL, IMA doesn't really come into play. IMA is only valuable to capture regen to power the electronic overhead.. Other than that, you want to stay out of it.

Remember during the Drive-in Rally at the TDS, Wayne and I teamed up for a 96MPG over 1000+ miles. The average speed was 45-50 MPH with strong headwinds and driving rain at times. We would have rather had left the IMA behind and take the weight reduction;

At 55-60 MPH, the Insight is on the edge of lean burn. On the VX, 70 MPH is not a problem on a level road. But the VX also has one more cylinder and 50% more displacement so that makes sense to me.

To answer the original question, as long as you could convince the various ECU's into believing that a missing IMA is not a problem, a hypermiler could do some major damage with an IMA less Insight.

PS, in addition to not having an alternator, I dont think that the Insight has a starter either. You would need a workaround for that also.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by krousdb

To answer the original question, as long as you could convince the various ECU's into believing that a missing IMA is not a problem, a hypermiler could do some major damage with an IMA less Insight.

PS, in addition to not having an alternator, I dont think that the Insight has a starter either. You would need a workaround for that also.

Good info everybody, thanks.

If the engine has an exposed crank pulley (or something that could be made into a pulley), a belt starter/alternator may kill 2 birds with one stone.

Anyway, the idea has a lot of appeal to me.

[Ryland]

the insight does have a 12 volt starter, maybe it's a requirement or something in some states, I know that wisconsin requires you to have a -wet- cell battery (personaly read it in the state statutes) how ever the insight does not have a fly wheel, insted the computer pulsses the moter between acting as a motor and a generator as each pistion fires to even out the vibration and engine speed, making it run very smooth.

[Wazabi Owner]

Originally Posted by Ryland

the insight does have a 12 volt starter, maybe it's a requirement or something in some states, I know that wisconsin requires you to have a -wet- cell battery (personaly read it in the state statutes) how ever the insight does not have a fly wheel, insted the computer pulsses the moter between acting as a motor and a generator as each pistion fires to even out the vibration and engine speed, making it run very smooth.

I was wondering if someone was going to mention that. The starter is a backup for the 12V system to start the car in the "unlikely" event the IMA battery goes kaput. VERY weird sound to hear it for the first time. I let my IMA battery sit for about 4 months on my old Civic Hybrid and it went down during my absence. When I jump started the car I heard the starter for the first time, really weird when you're not used to it.

MetroMPG - it does have a pulley system, that's what the A/C runs off of It could easily be converted to accomodate an alternator if someone has machining skills for making a good bracket, then of course is the task of wiring it in........

[MetroMPG]

Cool. This is neat info. As to why I wouldn't just get a regular Insight? Good question!

Probably a combination of the hypothetical prospect of getting a deal on a dead IMA vehicle, plus the challenge of retrofitting & modding the stuff to make it go without it. And in part I started thinking about this because there are just no good VX's around here any more. Too high mileage & rusty.

Not that I'm shopping or anything. Just kicking around ideas.

[krousdb]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

And in part I started thinking about this because there are just no good VX's around here any more. Too high mileage & rusty.

Hey! What is wrong with a rusty VX? The rust is just not detrimental to operation.

[MetroMPG]

You're right. Actually it helps make it lighter for better FE.

[Silveredwings]

Originally Posted by Wazabi Owner

It could easily be converted to accomodate an alternator if someone has machining skills for making a good bracket, then of course is the task of wiring it in........

I think wiring it in should be pretty straightforward (the regulator is built in). Connect the battery to wherever the DC-DC converter would otherwise be. Most alternators have a ground connection and a heavy guage connection to the +12V battery lug (or it may even share a heavy cable with starter). Then there are sometimes one or two more connections (like a fused +12V feed from the ignition switch to turn the field on/off, and/or a wire for an 'ALT' light. Anyone?

[Silveredwings]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

The Cd .31-ish Blackfly beats that currently.

I thought that sounded high. Many sources (new and old) have it at .25. For example:
http://www.caranddriver.com/cartrims...a_insight.html

While you're de-hybridizing it, you could always go the other way and make a straight EV out of it, but that's OT so nevermind.

[MetroMPG]

I should have been clearer with that figure. The .31-ish refers to my car's calculated Cd with current aero mods (grille block, wheel skirts, undertray, mirrors reconfig'd, but without the partial boat-tail). From .34 unaltered.

Man, if I could get the Blackfly down to the .25 Cd of the Insight, I should see (very) roughly 12% improved FE at highway speeds than I can get currently. And that would still only have me at about 66 mpg @ 55 mph @ 20C.

[Silveredwings]

Oh sorry metro, my bad. I misread it as "the Insight Cd is .31" but you clearly stated you meant the Blackfly. :/

BTW, Your efforts are very inspiring. Keep up the good work.

Now if I could figure out why I'm getting an FE drop in the Passat lately...

[MetroMPG]

Cooler temps would be my guess...

[Silveredwings]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Man, if I could get the Blackfly down to the .25 Cd of the Insight, I should see (very) roughly 12% improved FE at highway speeds than I can get currently.

Have you tried driving around backwards? Remember that Pinto study that showed it's Cd was better in reverse?

[DaX]

How did I miss this thread? Man this would be so cool to do!

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Ya know, the cost of replacing the pack shouldn't be more than $500-1000 in batteries, if we could find someone that knew a bit about the ECU, or better yet, contact Honda about it because it's legacy stuff to a certain extent, maybe we could convert to plug-in for under a couple grand!