Holy wow batman, Altair Nanotechnologies new batts.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

From GCC.

In October, the company announced that, in ongoing testing, it has completed 15,000 deep charge/discharge cycles of its NanoSafe battery cells. The cells still retained over 85% of their original charge capacity after the 15,000 cycles.

This represents a significant improvement over conventional, commercially available rechargeable battery technologies that typically retain that level of charge capacity only through approximately 1,000 deep charge/discharge cycles.

Altairnano said that it tested the battery cells at 10C (6 minute) charge and discharge rates. They were deep charged and discharged—i.e. they were taken to 100% charge and 0% charge respectively during the 6-minute cycles. Although tests involved full charges and discharges, partial charging and discharging of the battery does not appear to impact the life or the holding charge capacity of the batteries—i.e. they exhibit no memory loss.

In theory, a 15,000 charge cycle life could translate into a battery that would last greater than 40 years if it was charged daily, as would be the case in an electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle environment. However, in practice, other wear and tear factors would realistically limit the actual life of the batteries to probably 20 years, according to the company.

As long as the cost doesn't approach $7-8k/kwh, we've got a winner!

[cfg83]

omgwtfbyobbq -

Wow, could this be the holy grail of EV battery technology we've all been waiting for?



As long as NanoSafe isn't made of people I will be happy .

Crossing my fingers and toes (on one set of hands and feet only)!

CarloSW2

[MetroMPG]

The Forkenswift will be waiting...

[omgwtfbyobbq]

cfg83, that's what I'm hoping for! I think you should get a bigger motor MetroMPG, and it could be one fast/environmentally friendly neighborhood EV. Quarter mile in <12s.

[Silveredwings]

OK, but like, when? and how much?

[MetroMPG]

I kind of had my hopes pinned on Firefly carbon foam batteries. Low end of the scale, yes, but 3x better than lead acid, and likely much more affordable than the fancy chemistries.


Will a Firefly Spark a Battery Revolution?
Giant Caterpillar has given birth to Firefly Energy and our EV World may never be quite the same again. But it’s a good thing.


Firefly Energy Update
Co-founder and vice president, Mil Ovan talks about latest developments at the carbon foam battery developer

[omgwtfbyobbq]

They'd be cheap too. Make for practical small car conversion... You wouldn't happen to have the rest of the update text?

[The Toecutter]

Unfortunately, the military currently has a hold on the technology. We might see it in 5-10 years.

900 pounds of Firefly batteries would give my in-progress Triumph GT6 conversion 250 miles range at 65 mph. St. Louis to Kansas City or from St. Louis to Louisville on one charge.

I'm really pissed about Chevron shelving large size NiMH. This is the battery that made affordable, cheap to operate, long lived, high performance, long-range EVs possible, nearly 10 years ago.

[onegammyleg]

Originally Posted by The Toecutter

I'm really pissed about Chevron shelving large size NiMH.

Politics and the business profit line usualy controlls what we can do , not what is able to be done.

[Rstb88]

werd

[JanGeo]

Don't expect those Altair batteries to be cheep because they don't have to be. The A123 cells are available using simular technology at a set of 6 for $129 and 2 or more sets at $110 each. But that only makes 2.5ah per cell at 50/70 amps peak and what you need is capacity more than a single cell high output power level at a premium price.
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/buyKit.html

Rapid charging a multi-kwh battery is pointless unless you have your own substation connection to the grid. A 10kwh battery charged in an hour means 50 amps at 220 volts and that is a small EV car battery.

There was a battery company making a stacked NiMh cell battery that looks very promising in Hartford Ct I think but I can't find the link to it. It has great cycle life and they were thinking of putting it in a Prius but then you run into the patent on the 10ah limit for EV used on NiMh.

The Firefly battery does sound great but I don't see any product listed.

[The Toecutter]

It goes without saying that some oilies should be shot. Even if you develop your own large NiMH battery and get your own patent, you'll have much difficulty manufacturing it for mass market EV applications, because the oilies will sue your *** for everything you got.

This is truly keeping viable EVs from the masses. Today's 18650 size Li Ion if mass produced would achieve cost pairty with gas cars at about $3.00/gallon. NiMH is much better, ~$1.30/gallon gas cost pairty, but Chevron has a hold on it. AGM lead acid can do ~$1.50-2.50/gallon cost parity(if improperly cared for, costs can go much higher. Needs thermal manageemnt, charging management, and a full BMS), but is severely hampered by range. Flooded lead acid is also hampered by range and needs periodic watering, but can be much cheaper than AGM.

The Altair Nanotechnologies batteries have a projected shelf life of 40 years. Given their number of cycles, price would have to be over $2,000/kWh for the costs to eventually not be recouped, assuming $3.00/gallon gas. If they can get it down below $1,000/kWh, they may be viable yet for luxury vehicles in the 150-200 mile range, $40,000-50,000 price bracket. The only problem is that the upfront costs would price most out of the market, even if it may save money over cheap econoboxes in the long run even at that high price. This assumes Altair's cycle life and shelf life claims are also accurate.

Here's a video on the Altair Nanotechnolgies SUV, with 200 miles range and 10 minute recharge:

http://www.gravidfilms.com/deliverable/AN_Sac.mov

Here's an article on the SUV:

http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView.asp?BzID=546&ResLibraryID=17202&Cat egory=856



A fast recharge is not at all pointless given that infrastructure for it could be developed. In the 1990s, Aerovironment developed quick chargers that could recharge PbA and NiMH OEM EVs in under 30 minutes. Southern California Edison wanted to develop such infrastructure throught California and along Route 66 to make long trips by EV practical. Then the oil companies stepped in, lobbied the government, and prevented SCE from raising the funds.

[JanGeo]

Firefly update - an interesting article at ETList run by my buddy Remy who convinced me to get the Scion xB. I didn't realize that they had really fast recharge capabilities.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ETList/message/6551

[MetroMPG]

Good link thanks, JanGeo

I particularly like the point-form list of Firefly benefits (caveat: as described by the marketing guy).

Compared to standard PbA batts:

1) uses 80 percent less lead and thus is one quarter of the weight
2) has a recharge rate that is seven times faster
3) is more resistant to corrosion
4) has double the life expectancy
5) is safer for the environment when discarded at the end of its life cycle

[JanGeo]

YEAH NOW if only we could buy some!!! Would love to try a set in my scooter and it would be nice if they make a high voltage battery like 48 volts! or even 42 volts would be cool - I can run anything from 12 volts up to 63 volts on my controller and the higher the better top speed and easier to recharge.

[The Toecutter]

I would love a set for my Triumph. The idea of 250 miles range is something I cannot get out of my head. That would make the car so damned practical...

[JanGeo]

Latest article 4th quarter 2007 set for production startup. Military initial customer then EV batteries.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ETList/message/6554

[MetroMPG]

Another advanced energy storage company:

The "secretive" Texas-based EEStor (Google search)

The Canadian company making ZENN LSV's claims the ultracapacitors being developed by EEStor (with whom they have an exclusivity agreement to power EV's up to 1400 kilos curb weight) will quadruple the range of their current PBA-equipped LSV's at a cost premium of just $1000. But unlike batteries, ultracaps apparently don't wear out.

Supposedly, 3rd party test results of the technology is imminent, according to an ABG interview with the ZENN CEO yesterday, who said the EEstor technology will give them the ability to make an affordable, mid-size (5-passenger) high-speed EV with ICE range.

It's still vaporware at this point, but just imagine if it turns out to be real.

The company has come up with a new method for making ultracapacitors, battery-like devices that can store large amounts of electricity. EEStor's energy storage unit can hold enough charge to power a car 300 miles, according to its patent, and it can be recharged in the time it takes to pump a tank of gas.

...the company expected to eventually produce its energy storage devices for as little as $2,100 — roughly half the cost of a standard gas engine and power train.

Source: http://www.zenncars.com/media/images...Nov_5_2006.pdf

[JanGeo]

Looks promising . . . the controllers that use them have to accept a wide operating voltage range as the voltage drops exponentially.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ETList/message/6435


EEStor Ceramic Battery: Internal Combustion Replacement?

Seasoned scientists at EEStore say they've created a battery made of glass-
and aluminum-coated ceramics that could allow electric motors to completely
replace the internal combustion engine. The inventors, erstwhile Xerox PARC
and IBMmers, boast about the car's efficiency, saying it'll be so cheap
it'll be as if gas costs 45 cents per gallon, will drive 500 miles on nine
bucks' worth of electricity, and needs just five minutes to completely
recharge. Plus, the company's CEO says, "a four-passenger sedan will drive
like a Ferrari." Tall claims, EEStore.

Meanwhile, Feel Good Cars, those Canadian electric carmeisters whose ZENN
electric car is pictured above, vow to make this technology roadworthy by
2008. Oil companies, get out your checkbooks, but you'd better have some
phat cash 'cause these EEStore guys are well-financed. - Charlie White

[The Toecutter]

I don't believe the claims presented in the article one bit, but if they indeed are anything close to true, I would be more than happy to get a set for my vehicle.

Looks promising . . . the controllers that use them have to accept a wide operating voltage range as the voltage drops exponentially.

Cafe Electric Zillas might do it. 36-400V input allowed.

[MetroMPG]

FYI, just posted at EVWORLD:

EEStor will pull the wraps of their mysterious "battery" very soon; his exact word was "imminent" and that I could, in fact, hold my breath for their announcement.

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?sect...e&storyid=1145

[philmcneal]

if that ceramic storage is true... oh my god the energy industry will be revolutionized..... can't wait!

and if its vaporware damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

heck if i can get a battery that gives me 60 miles... i'd be pretty happy and have a 2nd car for hardcore errands.

[The Toecutter]

Believe me, there is a lot of Vaporware to go around. anyone remember Europositron's aluminum air batteries?

Then again, if EESTOR's claim is true, they'd have every reason to keep it secret. After all, oilies do lurk around, waiting to suppress any and all threats to their profit margins.

Personally, I think EESTOR is a fraud. If they can prove that notion wrong, I will be very pleased. they need their 'product' verified by a third party.

[cfg83]

Oooops -

I should have talked to these guys when I went to the LA alternative car show. They are using the AltairNano batteries :

Phoenix All Electric Motorcars (http://66.218.37.153/index.htm) uses "Altairnano" batteries (http://www.altairnano.com) :


Here's a SEMA video on it :
http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...s/4201003.html

CarloSW2

[JanGeo]

Looks like it is coming true . . . . 15kwh under 100lbs!!! That gives my scooter 450 mile range!!

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/BMBB/message/329

"The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15 kilowatt-hour
Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company in 2007 for use
in their electric vehicles. The production EESU for ZENN Motor Company will
function to specification in operating environments as sever as negative 20
to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have
ability to be recharged in a matter of minutes."

[Brock]

That is amazing; my 24kw bank comes in just under 1300 lbs. Hopefully these will come to pass, sure would make any EV a lot more viable.

[MetroMPG]

ZENN motor cars (CDN NEV maker) has an exclusivity agreement with EESTOR to put its vaporware, I mean ultracaps, in its cars.

ZENN is a publicly traded company. I watched its share price today: it was up over 35% this morning until trading was suspended pending a ZENN news release about the EESTOR developments (which is odd, because the news was out from EESTOR yesterday afternoon).

ZENN's share price closed up 17% today. Trading volume was through the roof - 100 times more trades today than yesterday.

You could just play the market on the EESTOR hype and buy a real set of Altair's li-ions with the profits