Plasma Coating & MPG Revisted

[Davo53209]

Last week I had introduced the idea of plasma coating the internal components of an already fuel efficient engine,for even better fuel economy.
Since that time, a lot of people on this post had chimmed in their suggestions, so I decided to research to most prevelent three: 1) Cryo-Engine treatment 2) Teflon Impregnation 3) and of course, Plasma Coating.

As a personal disclaimer, what I intend to report consists of a general discriptions from a consumers point of view. I am by no means an expert, nor am I trying to persuade anyone to pursue these processes in any way. If anyone is at all interested, then I would suggest that you do your own research as well.


A lot of the discussion revolved around speculations regarding both cost and performance output. Bearing all that in mind, I took it upon myself to do a little research, by calling each respective company that performs the above mentioned treatments. For the sake of this post, I will give a summarized description of each procces:

Cryo-Engine Treament:

This is the process of taking individual engine components, and exposing them to sub-zero temperatures. According to the research that I was able to find, it consists of a "Dry Process" where liquid nitrogen is converted in a gas, where the parts are then expossed to cold temperatures around -300F.

The parts are cooled slowly and left in for an extended period of time. The effect that the deep cold has upon the part, causes the molecules within the metal to unify more so in their aligment. In short, it makes the metal stronger than it was before, whereby creating sturdier engine parts with higher tolerences. The known overall effect is increased horse power, and perhaps increased fuel efficiency. (i.e. I was quoted maybe a 5% increase). The process is permanent & the cost is $425.00 for either a 3 or 4-cylinder. For more information, you can go to (www.300below.com) On a personal note, I can't quite see how this would create an increase in fuel efficiency, however, you would have an engine that would be near indestructable. Additionally, you could however apply any of the above engine treaments to it.

The next engine treatment is Teflon Impregnation:

This process involves coating the pistons, cylinder heads, skirts bearing, etc. with a teflon coating. The process provides a slick material that coats directly to your engine components,reducing friction and galling, whereby increasing horse power. Unlike engine additives, this coating becomes "impregnated"into to your engine components(ergo the name). Once again, when asked if it would increase fuel efficency, I was granted a conservative maybe. The cost of this service is pending. I was told that the process was not permanent and would wear off in time. As to how long, could not be determined. For those interested, go to(www.emcprocess.com).

The last process is Plasma Coating:

The one thing to keep in mind is that there are many companies that use different materials to plasma coat an engine. Some use ceramic plasma coating, while others may use nickle or chromium. Still there are those that will say that it permanent, while there are other companies that state that it's not (i.e. at that's what I was told when I had called one company).
At any rate, the reasearch that I had included in my last post stated that their could be a 20-30% increase in engine performance. The cost for either a 3-4cylinder engine was $425.00, about the same as Cryo-Engine Treatment. For a complete listing of prices and services, visit www.swaintech.com

[Red]

So for all these treatments what exactly takes place? Is the engine as a whole dipped, frozen, or coated? Or is it specific pieces such as pistons, cylinder bores, crankshafts?

[Bruce]

PTFE impregnated anodization is a great way to make aluminum parts slide without galling, but I would have to recommend against using PTFE on any of the parts that see combustion, ie. the block, head and cylinders. PTFE is highly toxic at temperatures above 500°F. If you ever use Teflon grease, you'll see warnings to clean your hands before smoking, and burning a Teflon-coated pan is bad news for your health (I use stainless cookware at home).

It sounds like any of the processes require a tear-down so that parts which see sliding friction are treated. I doubt cryo would treat a complete engine without a teardown because of contaminants.

[JanGeo]

The Ceramic coating process is apparently done very well by a company in Hartford CT and they can do the combustion surfaces and inside and outside of header pipes. They are also the ONLY know company that can coat turbo impellers without getting them out of balance!

EMC coating is applied to the oil coated surfaces not the combustion surfaces however valve stems and guides can be done. They are the only company that can do piston rings. The thing about aluminum is that it really penetrates as much as .1 inches into the surface - after teflon treatment the surface is so slippery you can pretty much forget about it wearing off because there is so little friction and it penetrates into the metal both steel and aluminum. Also they can build up the surface or not at your option. Wrist pins that my brother did were so slippery that they were really hard to hold in your fingers without dropping them - dry. Transmission gears spin on dry shafts without binding and the rear end on my BMW motorcycle which is almost a worm gear (not centered on the crown) was so friction reduced that I could bump start it in first gear without rear wheel locking up. I can also shift the gearbox on the center stand with my little finger.

[Mike T]

"molecules aligning" to make parts harder sounds like dimensional stability could be lost; any increased horsepower claim related to that is dubious.

[Davo53209]

[quote=Red;38702]So for all these treatments what exactly takes place? Is the engine as a whole dipped, frozen, or coated? Or is it specific pieces such as pistons, cylinder bores, crankshafts?[/QUOTE

Regarding Cyro-engine Treatment, virtually any metal component can be treated from what I've been told. The most interesting fact is that this process is not just limited to engine components. Transmissions, (i.e. cost $125.00) gear box components, differentials brake rotors etc. can be cryo'd as well. However it would require you to disassemble your engine or transmission prior to having it treated. For the record though, this is not a new process. The folks at NASCAR have been doing this for years.

With Plasma Coating, pistions, cylinder bores, connecting rods, crank shaft, valvesprings, intake manifolds or any other part of the engine that sees high friction and movement can be treated. You can go to (www.swaintech.com) for a more complete description. Once again, all three processes require having your engine broken down into seperate components, prior to having it treated.
You can also go to (http://www.iom3.org/divisions/automo...6ses3pres2.pdf) and read an abstract on the efficacy of this process.

Finally, with regards to Teflon Impregnation, I'm still waiting to hear from EMC for more details.

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by Bruce

PTFE impregnated anodization is a great way to make aluminum parts slide without galling, but I would have to recommend against using PTFE on any of the parts that see combustion, ie. the block, head and cylinders. PTFE is highly toxic at temperatures above 500°F. If you ever use Teflon grease, you'll see warnings to clean your hands before smoking, and burning a Teflon-coated pan is bad news for your health (I use stainless cookware at home).

It sounds like any of the processes require a tear-down so that parts which see sliding friction are treated. I doubt cryo would treat a complete engine without a teardown because of contaminants.

You are right, it would not. Infact, all three processes would require a complete tear down.

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by JanGeo

The Ceramic coating process is apparently done very well by a company in Hartford CT and they can do the combustion surfaces and inside and outside of header pipes. They are also the ONLY know company that can coat turbo impellers without getting them out of balance!

EMC coating is applied to the oil coated surfaces not the combustion surfaces however valve stems and guides can be done. They are the only company that can do piston rings. The thing about aluminum is that it really penetrates as much as .1 inches into the surface - after teflon treatment the surface is so slippery you can pretty much forget about it wearing off because there is so little friction and it penetrates into the metal both steel and aluminum. Also they can build up the surface or not at your option. Wrist pins that my brother did were so slippery that they were really hard to hold in your fingers without dropping them - dry. Transmission gears spin on dry shafts without binding and the rear end on my BMW motorcycle which is almost a worm gear (not centered on the crown) was so friction reduced that I could bump start it in first gear without rear wheel locking up. I can also shift the gearbox on the center stand with my little finger.

Actually Jan Geo, you are the person who'd inspiried me to research this process. The details of your experience would be quite valuable, whereas I'm sure that most people would be very interested to hear more about it. Also, what is the name of the Ceramic Coating Process that's done in Hartford CT.

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by Mike T

"molecules aligning" to make parts harder sounds like dimensional stability could be lost; any increased horsepower claim related to that is dubious.

a few years back I read all the web sites that I could find on the cryo-treatment, then I talked to a number of freidns who had messed around with liquid nitrogen in collage, and they all agreeded that it would have a possitive affect (as long as your engine was broken in first), that parts would wear less, and that bearings would have less give, thus rolling with less resistance.

[Mike T]

Yeah but if the molecules realign, giving a more dense/stronger product (seems possible), why would the item remain the exact same size/shape? Just to give you an idea, the titanium con rod of an F-1 engine at 19,000 rpm stretches 1 mm on each revolution. metal is not a crystal, more if a plastic in behaviouyr really.

So I ask again, how do we know that the dimensions themselves don't alter, if the material itself changes density?

Also, this would be a losing prospect in the battle of diminshing returns, if the engine does not require a teardown to begin with.

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by Mike T

Yeah but if the molecules realign, giving a more dense/stronger product (seems possible), why would the item remain the exact same size/shape? Just to give you an idea, the titanium con rod of an F-1 engine at 19,000 rpm stretches 1 mm on each revolution. metal is not a crystal, more if a plastic in behaviouyr really.

So I ask again, how do we know that the dimensions themselves don't alter, if the material itself changes density?

Also, this would be a losing prospect in the battle of diminshing returns, if the engine does not require a teardown to begin with.

I can appreciate your concern; but respectfully, as stated eariler, I am by no means the expert. Additionally, I may need to mention that cryo was an idea that was brought up to me in my first post. Presently, I'm just learning more about this process. If you would like more information, than you can either visit the cyro website that is listed up top, or you can call them at the phone number listed on their site. That's what I did, and I can tell you that they were quite helpful & informative.

On a seperated note, if your were intent on using cryo to maximize fuel efficiency, then yes, I would agree that it would be a battle of diminshing returns. At present, their isn't any research that would substantiate any gains in MPG...just durability and HP gains.

However, if you'd like an engine that will stand-up more to abuse, or more so, longterm wear and tear, then cryo would be the way to go. In spite of best efforts to maintain your vehical, some parts inevitably wear down faster than others. From a cost/benefit analysis, it would perhaps be far cheaper in the long run to have your engine or transmission cyro'd for $425.00 & $125.00, then to pay over $1000.00 to have either rebuilt.

[bzipitidoo]

Any process that results in more overall HP can be used to get more FE instead of more power/acceleration by simply changing to a taller gearing. Only limitation I can think of is it might be hard to get better FE out of a power improvement if the taller gearing moves the engine to a less efficient rpm.

PTFE: That's what the "busted" ideas behind Duralube, Slick 50, etc are all about. So, process means everything? EMC's method gets the most out of teflon, while the teflon oil additives result in little to no real change?

I wonder if these companies have results from genuinely independent labs to back their claims.

[JanGeo]

Ok will check again with my brother since he is involved with high performance motorcycle repair all the time - ones that go over 150mph turbo charged etc on the ceramic coatings from Hartford.

The EMC Teflon impregnation is a process where the parts cleaned of any oils then are heated in a high pressure teflon gas chamber and the teflon penetrates into the pores of the metal. Parts of the metal surface can be masked for no treatment. Crank journals - pistons rings and skirts below the ring grooves - wrist pins - gears and shafts - shifter forks - valve stems and steel valve guides (not brass guides I don't think) - cams and lifters all can be treated. Also any shaft that is rubbing upon an oil seal greatly reduces the friction and wear on the seal. They used to do gun barrels for weather protection for miltary purposes also - not sure if they still do it. They refuse to do bullets however so don't ask. Different metals with different heat treatment / hardness get heated to different temps and pressures. Buildup is possible on parts if you want it but it can be easily removed i.e. piston wrist pin holes. Like I said it makes the parts incredibly slippery - even being aware of how slippery the wrist pin was ahead of time I still dropped it. This is the transmission and rear end treatment that I used on my BMW motorcycle that brought it up to 60mpg from 50mpg and performance increased as well from the reduction of friction in the drive train allowing the bike with a roll on starting at 60mph to reach redline in a few seconds in top gear - speedo indicating 120mph.

As far as the additives in the oil I also use them but they tend to take longer to show results as they have to be burnished into the metal surfaces and as to if they work or not the recent addition of slick50 gear treatment to my xB transmission showed that even a 20 year old can of the stuff can still work.

Think about it for a second - oil is mostly providing a film to keep the metal surfaces apart so the only time the PTFE particles actually get rubbed into the metal is when metal to metal contact is occuring - heavy loads or low RPMs with reduced oil flow/pressure or in the case of the rings at TDC and BDC when the velocity of the piston is zero for a split second and at startup and low lugging speeds.

[AlexK]

I used to be an engineer at a company which makes cryogenic pumps for pumping liquefied natural gas, nitrogen, etc. We would cryo cycle our pump shafts because if they were not cycled a few times and then straightened, they would be bent when cold. The idea is the cryo cycling would "stabilize" the material in terms of geometric shape. I was not aware that it increased strength but there are a lot of things I don't know about so not saying it's not true.

One thing I do know is in order to cryo cycle an engine block, every steel part that was pressed in or otherwise attached (studs, etc) would have to be removed first. Aluminum shrinks much more than steel at low temperatures and it will likely crack the weaker structure. This is the tricky part about cryo machine desing, getting it to stay together at both ambient and operating temperature.

[Mike T]

I would suggest here that a much more effective expenditure - if rebuilding an engine anyway - would be a dynamic balancing of the engine parts at a racing shop.

Parasitic vibration would be reduced, along with the inefficiencies associated with them.

[Coyote X]

I have seen people cryo treat the shafts of their transmissions in lsx powered gm cars to make them hold up a bit better. The cars are usually on the edge of breaking the 4l60e transmissions so everyone thinks that will make it hold up better. Overall I have seen people report a slight improvement in life by having them cryo treated. But as far as making anything more efficient I really can't see that working out unless the part is so weak it flexes under the very light loads someone would be putting on it trying to get good economy. At best it might give 3-5% improvement in strength from what I can tell from messing with ls1 cars. For a car on the edge of breaking a stock part with no stronger aftermarket parts available it might be worthwhile but I really don't see the benefit of doing it for economy.