Fuel Efficient Engine Builders?

[Davo53209]

If you were to read any hotrod magazine, what you would usually find were ways to modify either a big block or a small block engine, so that you could maximize the hourse power needed to burn down the quarter mile in the shortest time.

During the hotrod era's earliest developments, there were a lot of backyard mechanics(i.e. similar to us FE fanatics), who were tickering with stock autombiles, intent on getting the most speed and performance out of their engines. In time, the techniques towards engine building needed to achieve that end, evolved from the backyard into speed performance shops.

My question to this forum, is to ask whether or not there's any shops, builder, garages, etc, who are dedicated to the building of engines, for the sole purpose of high fuel efficency? The parallel that I see, is like to early hotrod builders, the members of this forum are trying just as hard to get the maximum performance out of our vehicles, but in the opposite direction. What we want is tweaked out fuel efficiency. Rather than buring down the quarter mile, I rather burn fuel at a rate of over 50+ without paying over $20,000 for some ridiculous hybid.

If it doesn't exist, then frankly if I had the skills, then that's just what I would do. Thank You.

[MetroMPG]

The only builder I know of who makes performance efficiency parts is Mike at 3Tech: http://www.teamswift.net/3tech/

He deals with the Suzukiclone market.

He offers: cams that mimic the XFi profile; shaved heads (increased compression = more torque = more bang per unit of fuel); cam timing sprockets (increase low end torque with a standard cam & cylinder pressure).

[DRW]

There are also mods that reduce internal engine drag, such as a knife edged crank, windage trays, dry sump lube systems, lighter pistons+rods. These are mostly used to improve high rpm power, so they might not have much effect at low rpms. HTH.

[diamondlarry]

This guy is into the performance/economy thing. He is under the impression that economy and performance don't have to be mutually exclusive. He is also the guy that did the work on my Saturn's.
http://powrehaus.com/about/

[cfg83]

diamondlarry -

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

This guy is into the performance/economy thing. He is under the impression that economy and performance don't have to be mutually exclusive. He is also the guy that did the work on my Saturn's.
http://powrehaus.com/about/

Fantastic stuff !!!! My brain is reeling!

CarloSW2

[DaX]

I investigated sleeving my engine down to a smaller displacement about a year ago, but the cost would be high. The companies that typically make cylinder sleeves have the blanks cut at a size larger than I would want, so I'd have to get custom sleeves made, then I would have to pick a smaller diameter piston but with all the rest of the dimensions the same, or else get custom pistons made. It would have been nice to drop from a 1.5L to a 1.0L or something comparable, but I estimate the cost to be over a few thousand dollars, and I'm not willing to invest that kind of money on that project.

[Sludgy]

The Chevy small block V8 has more aftermarket engine parts than any other. Take 305, and add tons of parts: Hollow crankshaft, aluminum con rods, roller lifters, titanium valve keepers, high compression pistons, and aluminum heads. Add a few low drag devices like an electric water pump and fan.

BUT, instead of the typical (ridiculous) high lift cam with huge overlap, install a truck cam (high torque at low RPM). Add a 5 speed overdrive tranny and 3.08 gears. Put that inside an old Camaro, which has low frontal area and a decent drag coefficient.

I'll bet it would get 35 mpg highway, and still smoke the tires in first gear.

[northboundtrain]

Hello.

Great site. I've gotten into rebuilding engines recently, and the thought of openning up a fuel efficient rebuild shop has crossed my mind more than once. I'd love to do it, but I'm not sure the market is there. Engine rebuilders focus on speed and power because that is where the money is. Driving fast cars is something a lot of people devote a huge portion of their lives (and disposable income) to.

Most people want fuel efficient cars to save money. Sure there's plenty of other reasons, but in the end, the mods would would have to pay for themselves (or come pretty close) for most people to want to throw down the necessary thousands of dollars. In addition, the only cars you would be modifying are older out of warrenty vehicles. Given that the mods would take years to pay for themselves, Someone would have to be really into their car and plan on keeping it for many more years to make that kind of investment.

Where the market might exist is in taking older CRXs, Sprints, Metros, diesels, etc that you get for a song and then modifying and fixing them up. If you could get them into the 60+ mpg range and resell them for 8-10k then you might be able to pay yourself an okay wage if you could do it out of your garage with negligable overhead expenses.

I dunno, I'm being a little skeptical and playing devil's advocate to some extent because I'd like to hear someone respond convincingly to these arguments. It would be a really fun business if it could work.

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by northboundtrain

Hello.

Great site. I've gotten into rebuilding engines recently, and the thought of openning up a fuel efficient rebuild shop has crossed my mind more than once. I'd love to do it, but I'm not sure the market is there. Engine rebuilders focus on speed and power because that is where the money is. Driving fast cars is something a lot of people devote a huge portion of their lives (and disposable income) to.

Most people want fuel efficient cars to save money. Sure there's plenty of other reasons, but in the end, the mods would would have to pay for themselves (or come pretty close) for most people to want to throw down the necessary thousands of dollars. In addition, the only cars you would be modifying are older out of warrenty vehicles. Given that the mods would take years to pay for themselves, Someone would have to be really into their car and plan on keeping it for many more years to make that kind of investment.

Where the market might exist is in taking older CRXs, Sprints, Metros, diesels, etc that you get for a song and then modifying and fixing them up. If you could get them into the 60+ mpg range and resell them for 8-10k then you might be able to pay yourself an okay wage if you could do it out of your garage with negligable overhead expenses.

I dunno, I'm being a little skeptical and playing devil's advocate to some extent because I'd like to hear someone respond convincingly to these arguments. It would be a really fun business if it could work.

Well here's my rational. I'm tired of having the auto industry tell me that "Statistically", as an American car driver, all I want is a bulky, inefficient SUV, which has horsepower over Fuel Efficiency.

Secondly, there a cars in Europe like the VW Lupo, or the Audi A2 which get 78 MPG U.S. that will never be allowed into this country.

Finally, to add insult to injury, they've been trying to pass off some ugly looking hybrid costing over $20,000, which only averages 50 to 60MPG.
50to 60MPG! For God sake, Geo Metros and the Honda Civic CRX HF were doing that over 16 years ago, while costing significantly less than $20,000. Not to mention the added expense of replacing the lithium batteries within 8 to 10 years. Furthermore, a fuel efficient car does not have to cost that much or look like some obscure, flamboyet, quasi-futuristic rollerskate.

Bearing all that in mind, including the increasing cost of a gallon of gas, I think that there would be a market...All it would take are a few dedicated engine builders who have the "Know How", that are willing to step foward, make Fuel Efficient mods that work and be able to quantify there results.

As far as "throwing down the necessary thousands of dollars", I feel think that by taking an already fuel efficient Geo Metro, CRX HF or Honda Vx, and tweaking it to be more fuel efficient, it would be far cheaper than buying some hybid for over 20K. Not to mention, you'll have a better running car that can also be tweaked to be more reliable...again, being far cheaper then the auto industry.

Bottom line, we need to turn speculation into fact, by separating what might work to what will work. The point is that like the early hotrodder, we need to take our FE Mods that we've learned in the backyard and turn them into a professional service.

[cfg83]

diamondlarry -

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

This guy is into the performance/economy thing. He is under the impression that economy and performance don't have to be mutually exclusive. He is also the guy that did the work on my Saturn's.
http://powrehaus.com/about/

I did more reading on the website and it looks pretty cool. Did you get the full "16 valve cylinder head porting" from him? How much did it cost and what is your estimate of the FE gains?

CarloSW2

[skewbe]

re 50 mpg saturn: Tell you what, if I can drop a stick shift in my 96 sw2 and get 50mpg I'd be real happy. diamondlarry, whats your secret?

[northboundtrain]

Originally Posted by Davo53209

As far as "throwing down the necessary thousands of dollars", I feel think that by taking an already fuel efficient Geo Metro, CRX HF or Honda Vx, and tweaking it to be more fuel efficient, it would be far cheaper than buying some hybid for over 20K. Not to mention, you'll have a better running car that can also be tweaked to be more reliable...again, being far cheaper then the auto industry.

Bottom line, we need to turn speculation into fact, by separating what might work to what will work. The point is that like the early hotrodder, we need to take our FE Mods that we've learned in the backyard and turn them into a professional service.

My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

Are these figures realistic?

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by northboundtrain

My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

Are these figures realistic?

QUOTE=northboundtrain;39237]My guess is that the people buying hybrids are going to buy a new car anyway, so if they weren't spending 20+K on a prius, they would be spending it on something else. Those people -- like a lot of people -- just want a new car. And they figure they might as well get something fuel efficient.

I think the bottom line is this: Do the numbers add up for someone that wants to keep the car for at least the next five years and wants the modifications to pay off in fuel savings?

The average car in the U.S. is driven about 15,000 miles a year. Suppose you could mod an engine to be 25% more efficient (you'd probably have to do more than just the engine -- exhaust, intake, etc). You take a car that gets 30 mpg and make it get 37-38 mpg. At $3 per gallon, 15,000 miles per year, that is a savings of $300 per year. Suppose you're aiming for a payback period of five years. Could you do all the necessary mods for $1,500? If fuel goes to $4 or $5 per gallon, then that number goes up to$2,000-$2,500.

You are absolutely right. It would take more than just the engine to increase Fuel Economy; but what I'm referring to is either a Geo Metro, Honda Crx Hf or VX that already gets 50mpg. If you could at least have one of those vehicals modified so that you could get 10 extra gallons per mile, then would would certainly have something worth having.

You are also right in saying that there are people who only want their cars for five years; but I'm one of those guys who'd be willing to build a car from the ground up and keep it indefinately. I personally don't see it as being any less practical, then the guy who soups some import, races it illegally so as to impress his friends, or ultimately blow the motor. To me that's ego and money wasted. I'm just trying to find trying to save gas in the long-run. But before committing to any expense, I like many others, are attempting to find the information that needed to achieve our fuel Efficient goals. That's why I like this site some much.

-

Are these figures realistic?[/quote]

[cfg83]

theclencher -

Originally Posted by theclencher

Actually the more efficient the vehicle starts out as, the worse the expense/benefit equation becomes!

50 mpg / 15,000 m/year = 300 gallons;
@ $2/gallon = $600
@ $3/gallon = $900
@ $4/gallon = $1200.

60 mpg / 15,000 m/year = 250 gallons;
@ $2/gallon = $500, or $100 savings/year, over let's say 5 years, = $500 total savings, meaning you have to get the +10 mpg mods done for less than $500 just to achieve parity or break even, not to mention coming out ahead!
@ $3/gallon = $750, or $150 savings/year, over 5 years = $750... and so on.

So the applications where expensive FE mods really pay for themselves are those in which the original vehicle FE was really bad, it gets driven a lot of miles, and when gasoline costs more. An example of this would be a pickup truck used for lots of hauling- when the numbers are crunched it might actually be worthwhile to install that $2,500 overdrive unit- but most of the time it isn't.

Which reminds me of ...... the trucking industry!!!!!!

We need a trucker to join GasSavers.

CarloSW2

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by cfg83

diamondlarry -



I did more reading on the website and it looks pretty cool. Did you get the full "16 valve cylinder head porting" from him? How much did it cost and what is your estimate of the FE gains?

CarloSW2

I did get the "works" from him. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before, I never got to drive the car before he did the work to it. I bought it from a dealer in Paramus, NJ and, since he was closer and was actually going out that direction, he picked it up for me since I didn't have the time to take off from work. Because of that I don't have any before FE stats for before the mod.

As for the cost, we never really talked about it since he didn't charge me anything. He basically did it for free so he could get his work "out there" and get results coming in since I was one of the first ones. He did mention that he would probably charge in the $600-$800 range. It is very possible that he has lowered it since then so you would have to contact him for pricing.

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by skewbe

re 50 mpg saturn: Tell you what, if I can drop a stick shift in my 96 sw2 and get 50mpg I'd be real happy. diamondlarry, whats your secret?

I would say my biggest key to my success would be the injector kill switch that allows me to FAS so easily. I have a suggestion for you if you do drop in a stick: make sure it comes from a SOHC car. The transmissions for DOHC's are geared much lower. If I were to ever get ambitious(like that will ever happen ) or come into some money, I would take the transmission out of my old SOHC and put it in my current car. With all of the computer garbage nowadays, it's possible that my DOHC's ECU could have a minor fit with a trans from a SOHC.

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

This guy is into the performance/economy thing. He is under the impression that economy and performance don't have to be mutually exclusive. He is also the guy that did the work on my Saturn's.
http://powrehaus.com/about/

Yes! This is just the person that I was looking for! Someone who is dedicated towards building engines for the purpose of maximum FE. In fact, it's the whole reason why I started this post. The apparent bonus here is that he claims to add hp into the equation too. Frankly, I would rather settle on fuel efficiency(i.e being that I have a 3-cylinder in mind).

The price that he seems to be offering is very reasonable. I can honestly say that it is far less than what I was expecting; but finally, someone who is able to quote a price for the labor, without guessing on the cost.

Additionally, I am happy to hear that he did your engine for free just to get the word out. That tells me that he believes in what he is doing, and hopefully his work will catch on. If you happen to have anything else to add to your experience, or know anyone else who's had work done, please feel free to tell us more. In the meantime, I plan to make contact with this gentlemen, and hopefully get him to post on this site. Again Thanks. http://powrehaus.com/about/

[diamondlarry]

I'm glad I was able to help. I can say that Mike will work very hard to make sure it's right. I actually helped him when he was installing the head and I can say that he is very conscientious about doing things right. For him, good enough is not good enough; it has to be right. We worked until it was dark outside and then we worked some more with a drop cord until we decided to call it a night and come back out in the morning. Good luck trying to get him to post here. He's been very busy lately.

[northboundtrain]

Originally Posted by theclencher

Actually the more efficient the vehicle starts out as, the worse the expense/benefit equation becomes!

Exactly. The law of diminishing returns. Going from 50 mpg to 60 mpg -- a 20 percent improvement -- yields a savings of 50 gallons over 15,000 miles. Now take a vehicle getting only 20 mpg. It only has to improve to 21.4 mpg to save the same 50 gallons -- only a 7 percent improvement. If that 20 mpg vehicle improves 20 percent to 24 mpg, then it saves 125 gallons.

The market, if there is one, is at the bottom end, not the top.

[DRW]

"The market, if there is one, is at the bottom end, not the top."

Maybe that's why Ford made the Escape Hybrid? And modern locomotives are deisel/electric (aka 'hybrid' if I used the modern catch phrase) ? This could also explain why most 18 wheelers around my area already have LED taillights.

[bzipitidoo]

One of the questions I've been thinking of asking is where can we get FE parts? The lightweight composite hoods for subcompacts, FE optimized camshafts for tiny 3 cyl engines, kits for adding skirts to rear wheel wells, and that sort of thing.

But I haven't asked, because from what I've seen the answer seems to be: nowhere. No one makes them, You have to do it yourself if you want that stuff. And that's an advantage for any aftermarket manufacturer thinking of giving this area a try: there'd be very little competition.

Next, the hot rodders get their competitions, why can't we have ours at the same race tracks? The FE version of the 1/4 mile would be the teaspoon (well, maybe a tablespoon) of gas. On each car, disconnect the regular gas tank and attach the special walnut sized tank, then see how far the car gets. Then we'd have the FE equivalent of 0-60 times: how far can your car go on a teaspoon of gas once it has reached 100 kph? I bet a few contests like that would raise interest.

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by bzipitidoo

One of the questions I've been thinking of asking is where can we get FE parts? The lightweight composite hoods for subcompacts, FE optimized camshafts for tiny 3 cyl engines, kits for adding skirts to rear wheel wells, and that sort of thing.

But I haven't asked, because from what I've seen the answer seems to be: nowhere. No one makes them, You have to do it yourself if you want that stuff. And that's an advantage for any aftermarket manufacturer thinking of giving this area a try: there'd be very little competition.

Next, the hot rodders get their competitions, why can't we have ours at the same race tracks? The FE version of the 1/4 mile would be the teaspoon (well, maybe a tablespoon) of gas. On each car, disconnect the regular gas tank and attach the special walnut sized tank, then see how far the car gets. Then we'd have the FE equivalent of 0-60 times: how far can your car go on a teaspoon of gas once it has reached 100 kph? I bet a few contests like that would raise interest.

OH MAN....THAT IS AN ABSOULETLY BRILLIANT IDEA! I say set it off!!! In fact, that would be the way to generate interest in fuel Ecomony. Especillay if it were done for money, pride and prices. In time, what I think would happen, is that it would inspire an intense desire for competative individuals to create FE mods and engine tweaks for that sole purpose. Like the hotrod industry, these mods were eventually evolve in their sophistication, leading to a new market of FE type performance parts and products. Best all, this evolution would lead to quantifiable objective data on what actually works. You really should create a seperate post and put your idea out to the rest of the forum.

[cfg83]

Davo53209-

Originally Posted by Davo53209

OH MAN....THAT IS AN ABSOULETLY BRILLIANT IDEA! I say set it off!!! In fact, that would be the way to generate interest in fuel Ecomony. Especillay if it were done for money, pride and prices. In time, what I think would happen, is that it would inspire an intense desire for competative individuals to create FE mods and engine tweaks for that sole purpose. Like the hotrod industry, these mods were eventually evolve in their sophistication, leading to a new market of FE type performance parts and products. Best all, this evolution would lead to quantifiable objective data on what actually works. You really should create a seperate post and put your idea out to the rest of the forum.

Instead of a Tour De Sol, a "Tour De Todo" that includes any and all mods?

CarloSW2

[northboundtrain]

Originally Posted by Davo53209

OH MAN....THAT IS AN ABSOULETLY BRILLIANT IDEA!

I dunno. I think when we get outside of our little nerd bubble, we realize how little it really is. Hardly anybody's gonna give a damn about "Xtreme FE" unless it gets really extreme. In fact, wasn't there some contest recently to design a 1,000 mile per gallon vehicle? But the "stock FE grand prix"? We are a rare breed indeed.

When I got ready to drive across the country in my VW diesel pickup last year, I chopped off the entire exhaust and welded up my own custom 2" straight pipe with no muffler. I figured I was setting out on a 5,000+ mile road trip and I wanted to squeak out every last mpg I could. Well, I took it for a test drive around town and it wasn't too bad. So the next day I set out for New Hampshire. Well at highway speeds (and rpm) things got a little louder and the bed of the truck acted like a gigantic woofer. I had to stop and buy ear plugs otherwise I'd loose a good portion of my hearing before the trip was over. When I pulled into N.H., my friends were looking at me like I was some kind of babbling lunatic as I explained that I'd just gotten the best mpg ever. I took my buddy for a ride and he was like, "Dude, you drove this thing cross country like this? Just for a few extra miles per gallon? What the f@#& is wrong with you?" I'm sure you all can get it, but I realized then and there that my little hobby was probably not going to become the next big IPO. The average person -- if they happen to even care about saving gas -- is going to be very happy with 40 or 50 mpg. Squeaking out another few mpgs with performance cams, aero mods, etc just to save $100 or $150 a year isn't nearly worth the trouble, not to mention expense. The only people who really care are the ones out there cutting up rubbermaid containers and screwing them onto their cars themselves, and let's admit it, it's just a hobby. It's what we do for fun. If we weren't into it we could probably save twice as much fuel by using all the time we spend modding our rides to ride our damn bicycles to the grocery store instead of driving.

That being said, I do think it would be really cool to make a performance FE cam. I bet there could be some serious gains to be made, since just about all automotive cams are designed with some amount of acceleration performance in mind. Maybe when gas is finally being rationed Detroit sit up and take notice.

In the meantime, come up with a product that saves truckers a mile per gallon, and you'll make millions.

Example: http://www.dieselmidatlantic.org/die...DCAeroOvw2.pdf

BTW, many of the points I made in this little tirade are arguments from my wife and friends when I've floated the idea of turning my FE interest into a business of some sort. I'm glad to finally find there are other people who think like I do!

[skewbe]

I think I like the perspective of putting fuel (the thing you are trying to conserve) in the numerator. Mebbe I just switch to L/100KM and get used to it.

[cfg83]

theclencher -

Originally Posted by theclencher

At this point in time, once you achieve a certain mpg, getting above it is largely academic. NOT WITHOUT MERIT, mind you; I'm just saying that above a certain mpg the dollar and gallon amounts saved become inconsequential.

For example if I was getting 60 mpg and I put on 10,000 miles/year I'd burn 167 gallons/year; 70 mpg = 143 gallons/year. So while 70 mpg is nice and something fun to shoot for and I'd achieve some sort of status if I did, the reality is 24 gallons difference over a year's time is basically nothing. 70 vs 80, or 80 vs 90 and it gets even worse.

Again I think the question is what is your goal? If you are only interested in increasing MPG for saving $$, then the "cold economic" numbers are definitely your litmus test.

Increasing MPG can also be a hobby, just like anything else (trainspotting in the UK?!?!?!?!?!?). How much money have you saved over the years in practicing one of your hobbies? Probably none, unless your hobby dovetailed into something that turned into a career where you derived the majority of your income from it.

Saving gas also has that political thang attached to it.

CarloSW2

[skewbe]

0.007 years/gallon is pretty good

[Davo53209]

Originally Posted by northboundtrain

I dunno. I think when we get outside of our little nerd bubble, we realize how little it really is. Hardly anybody's gonna give a damn about "Xtreme FE" unless it gets really extreme. In fact, wasn't there some contest recently to design a 1,000 mile per gallon vehicle? But the "stock FE grand prix"? We are a rare breed indeed.

When I got ready to drive across the country in my VW diesel pickup last year, I chopped off the entire exhaust and welded up my own custom 2" straight pipe with no muffler. I figured I was setting out on a 5,000+ mile road trip and I wanted to squeak out every last mpg I could. Well, I took it for a test drive around town and it wasn't too bad. So the next day I set out for New Hampshire. Well at highway speeds (and rpm) things got a little louder and the bed of the truck acted like a gigantic woofer. I had to stop and buy ear plugs otherwise I'd loose a good portion of my hearing before the trip was over. When I pulled into N.H., my friends were looking at me like I was some kind of babbling lunatic as I explained that I'd just gotten the best mpg ever. I took my buddy for a ride and he was like, "Dude, you drove this thing cross country like this? Just for a few extra miles per gallon? What the f@#& is wrong with you?" I'm sure you all can get it, but I realized then and there that my little hobby was probably not going to become the next big IPO. The average person -- if they happen to even care about saving gas -- is going to be very happy with 40 or 50 mpg. Squeaking out another few mpgs with performance cams, aero mods, etc just to save $100 or $150 a year isn't nearly worth the trouble, not to mention expense. The only people who really care are the ones out there cutting up rubbermaid containers and screwing them onto their cars themselves, and let's admit it, it's just a hobby. It's what we do for fun. If we weren't into it we could probably save twice as much fuel by using all the time we spend modding our rides to ride our damn bicycles to the grocery store instead of driving.

That being said, I do think it would be really cool to make a performance FE cam. I bet there could be some serious gains to be made, since just about all automotive cams are designed with some amount of acceleration performance in mind. Maybe when gas is finally being rationed Detroit sit up and take notice.

In the meantime, come up with a product that saves truckers a mile per gallon, and you'll make millions.

Example: http://www.dieselmidatlantic.org/die...DCAeroOvw2.pdf

BTW, many of the points I made in this little tirade are arguments from my wife and friends when I've floated the idea of turning my FE interest into a business of some sort. I'm glad to finally find there are other people who think like I do!

Well, you're opinion is vallid and as you said, there are some people here who may do this as a hobby. That respectfully doe not represent everyone. I for one got frustrated by the notion that automotive industry has made prototypes, which can achieved incredible gas mileage, yet they won't mass produce those vehicle to the consumer market. In the meantime, gas prices have skyrocketed within the last 6 years to record high costs.

My personal motivation for finding a site such as this, was to see if there were any FE mods in existence that would work. Speaking for myself, I'm here to curb my curiosty, while determining what works, while bouncing off ideas towards those who have the experience. One idea from one individual, may inspire the begginings of something monumental, that no one else had thought of before. Whether there was a direct relationship to that initial idea or not. No matter how you look at it, necessity is the mother of invention, and the first question towards the road to discovery is to ask, "What if", while exploring possible options that were never tried before.

[northboundtrain]

No doubt there will come a day when most cars are being built for optimal economy. The time when the difference between 50 mpg and 60 mpg will really matter is when gasoline is being rationed. Imagine you get 25 gallons per month. At 50 mpg you can go 1,250 miles a month. At 60 mpg you can go 1,500 miles, an additional 250 miles! At 70 mpg you can go 1,750 miles, another 250 miles still. Here is where the law of diminishing returns does not apply. Each additional 10 mpg gets you another 250 miles. And that could mean an extra weekend trip to the mountains or the ability to actually get to work all month. That day could easily come. So if you develop a high performance FE cam, there could be a market for your efforts someday.

But until that day arrives, The market for extremely fuel efficient cars is pretty small. That is not to say that all else being equal -- price, safety, etc. -- someone buying a new car today wouldn't choose 80 mpg over 50 mpg (the argument that Detroit is withholding more fuel efficient cars from the public is certainly true). But that same person probably wouldn't drop a buch of money into mods that improve the fuel economy of a 10 or 15 year old vehicle from 50 mpg to 60 mpg.

But a one mpg improvement for a trucker that hauls 100,000 miles a year yields a fuel savings of 3,333 gallons per year, or about $8,000 at current diesel prices.

[cfg83]

northboundtrain -

Originally Posted by northboundtrain

No doubt there will come a day when most cars are being built for optimal economy. The time when the difference between 50 mpg and 60 mpg will really matter is when gasoline is being rationed. Imagine you get 25 gallons per month. At 50 mpg you can go 1,250 miles a month. At 60 mpg you can go 1,500 miles, an additional 250 miles! At 70 mpg you can go 1,750 miles, another 250 miles still. Here is where the law of diminishing returns does not apply. Each additional 10 mpg gets you another 250 miles. And that could mean an extra weekend trip to the mountains or the ability to actually get to work all month. That day could easily come. So if you develop a high performance FE cam, there could be a market for your efforts someday.

But until that day arrives, The market for extremely fuel efficient cars is pretty small. That is not to say that all else being equal -- price, safety, etc. -- someone buying a new car today wouldn't choose 80 mpg over 50 mpg (the argument that Detroit is withholding more fuel efficient cars from the public is certainly true). But that same person probably wouldn't drop a buch of money into mods that improve the fuel economy of a 10 or 15 year old vehicle from 50 mpg to 60 mpg.

But a one mpg improvement for a trucker that hauls 100,000 miles a year yields a fuel savings of 3,333 gallons per year, or about $8,000 at current diesel prices.

Bingo.

There is a strange schizo thing about all this. Europe has shorter overall distances (more compact, right?), but better MPG cars. The USA has huge distances to cover, but has lower MPG cars. Why? Cheap oil until the first oil shock and subsidized oil since then (right?$?).

If I were president of the USA, I would have done the following to make sure I was never re-elected. I would create the "penny a month" gas tax. For 4 years, 48 months, the tax on gas nationwide would increase by 1 penny. That would gaurantee a gradual increase in gas prices and something that the economy could plan for. People with jobs that depend on gas like truckers would get 1-for-1 tax writeoffs on the tax (imagine the black market for trucker's licenses !!!!). The pennies would be devoted to all kinds of R&D that lead to sustainable energy, high speed rail, and high MPG drivetrain improvements that are *given* to USA car companies that keep manufacturing jobs in the USA.

Question : How do European trucker MPGs compare to USA trucker MPGs?

CarloSW2