The agony of the diesel

[Sludgy]

Maybe I should title it "Agony of the Ford". Just got back from the dealer, who did an oil change, changed the air filter, and repaced a defective Exhaust Backpressure Sensor (under warranty with $100 deductible) on the F-350.

$495!!!!!! Outrageous.

I will never buy another Ford again. Diesels are supposed to give good mileage. Ford diesels don't.

[budomove]

That sucks. It is a v8 afterall, diesel or not, and it's a heavy vehicle, so the mpg is not a surprise.

[lovemysan]

There is no way I would pay that for an oil change and air filter. An oil change should be around $70. An air filter around $30. So no more than $150 for those 2 items.

I find that auto repair across the board is going up everywhere. I would avoid the dealership unless its a warranty repair. $495 for what sounds like an hours worth of work. I wouldn't chalk it up that its a ford thing either. I've had similar experiences with different brand dealers. I would have laughed in his face and told them I would pay them fair market price for the oil and filter change and given them the $100 deductable. If I were you I would get a quote from a different dealer. If it turns out that this dealer is gouging people I would report it to the BBB.

[ELF]

[quote=Sludgy;42006

I will never buy another Ford again. Diesels are supposed to give good mileage. Ford diesels don't.[/QUOTE]

1 ton trucks are not designed to get good mpg, they are made to haul or tow a lot of weight.

I drive a chevy 1ton truck at work with a 8.1 v8 gas engine, we average about 8 mpg with it.

[rh77]

I have to agree with Sludgy on this one. I drove many E-350, -450 and -550 Diesel platforms and saw the run of problems up to and beyond the 100K mile mark on the PowerStrokes. The International/Navistar engine corp. was rushed by Ford to produce a light-to-medium duty turbo-diesel since their non-turbo engines were quite underpowered when compared to similar offerings from GM's Isuzu brand in Chevy/GMC applications and Dodge's legendary Cummins I-6 -- both of which offer better FE over their gasser V-8 counterparts. Similarly, Volvo and Mistubishi had a superior product for their U.S. truck market. Enter the "Ford PowerStroke Diesel".

But were Ford mechanics ready for the new PSD? Apparently not. Many dealers failed to seal the air-intake system during either routine maintenance or recalls. The result: lots of dirty, sandy, or dusty air being sucked directly into the engine and its consequent demise. "Dusted" engines and dealers not owning up to faulty repair claims prompted legal action and many new engines were provided to owners after a long fight. Since a TD sucks-in air many-times over gassers, the sand blasting took its toll first on the turbo vanes, then piston rings and walls of the cylinder, and finally ka-blooey. They even screwed it up on engine replacement and it happened 2+ times to some owner. Not good. Since 80%+ of the Ambulances on the road today have a Ford Diesel engine and chassis, does that make you feel a sense of confidence in the response in an emergency?

We were thrilled to have more power, but the new tech's flaws showed through. Broken valves, dusted engines, premature turbo failure, and exhaust leaks made them unreliable. I mainly drove the older, pre-turbo models on the job, which were virtually indestructable. They didn't have much power, smoked like a chimney, and were drag-limited to 111 mph -- nevermind on that last one: most public-service PSDs had a governor set to 85 mph which caught me by surprise on the Volunteer Department's new E-550. Out on the Interstate, it just topped out, and you'd get passed -- with the lights and siren! But then you were stuck. Like the Crown-Vic "Police Interceptor" Police car, Ford had the corner on the ambulance platform market. You could get a GMC (rare), or even upgrade to a huge Freightliner Medium-duty unit, but the latter was very costly. Many departments are forced to buy Ford.

LSS: Ford hasn't lived up to its claims of better FE with the PSD over their V-8s, the reliability, and lack of service excellence. Granted, it's not going to get stellar FE, but it should at least do better than similar V-8s, which I understand they do not.

RH77

[lovemysan]

I have driven and worked many fords and dodges over the years. I'll say this dodge has had there fair share of teething issues as well as the GM/isuzu duramax.

Dodge in particular had the cracked engine block issue as well as the throw away vp44 injection pump.

I think that the affordable dependability of the diesel has past. Any cummins 12valve will run forever as do the old non turbo fords. But the newer electronic control injection pumps marked the begining of the end for me. I can't really work on this 95 ford psd. Its been dependable but a bit finicky. My old dodge was flawless until the day the injection pump grenaded(somebody gassed the truck for me).

The home mechanic can't really work on them, you need diagnostic equipment. As they age the electronics fail and your left with large repair bills from increasingly less knowledgable service personel. Because if you don't drive the truck for a long time you will not extract the finicial benefit of owning a diesel.

I think the market has changed a great deal too. People have gotten on the band wagon of fashionably driving a diesel because its "cheaper" in the long run. And its a fashion statement. Yet they still trade there vehicles every few years. I rairly see a late model diesel pickup doing anything other than serving as an ego extension. Its the sad truth. Ever see a 3/4ton truck pulling 2 jetskis, kinda ridiculous to think about ain't it. I rairly see them worked.

[Sludgy]

I expected to see some FE improvement over a gasser truck. But my GM gasser 1/2 ton V6 and V8 trucks got better mileage than the 1 ton Ford diesel.

I got hosed by Ford, and I got hosed by the dealer.

[Gary Palmer]

Their just trying to retain their Fix Or Repair Daily status quo, or Found On Road Dead.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Originally Posted by Sludgy

I expected to see some FE improvement over a gasser truck. But my GM gasser 1/2 ton V6 and V8 trucks got better mileage than the 1 ton Ford diesel.

I got hosed by Ford, and I got hosed by the dealer.

Did you ever have a 1 ton ford gasser of the same type to compare it by? w/o that bit of info, saying that you get better or worse mileage is kind of a crap shoot. Maybe next time you can go for a new 2500HD w/ the 6.0L diesel from chebby/gmc... MSRP is under 30k for a long bed, and the 10 year 100k powertrain warranty applies iirc. In the long run, these engines will probably be as cheap/easy to work on as the 6.9/7.3L idi diesels once the common problems get sorted (i.e. cavitation on the older fords), but for now, there's going to be a lot of risk in buying newer vehicles.

[Sludgy]

Originally Posted by omgwtfbyobbq

Did you ever have a 1 ton ford gasser of the same type to compare it by? w/o that bit of info, saying that you get better or worse mileage is kind of a crap shoot. Maybe next time you can go for a new 2500HD w/ the 6.0L diesel from chebby/gmc... MSRP is under 30k for a long bed, and the 10 year 100k powertrain warranty applies iirc. In the long run, these engines will probably be as cheap/easy to work on as the 6.9/7.3L idi diesels once the common problems get sorted (i.e. cavitation on the older fords), but for now, there's going to be a lot of risk in buying newer vehicles.

I never wanted a 1 ton. I wanted a 1/2 ton. But nobody makes a 1/2 ton diesel, so I had to buy a 1 ton. An expensive, disappointing experiment.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Not on these shores, but they made 'em. Just look long and hard for an old Toyota, Datsun, IH, Ford, Mitsu, Chebby, VW, or etc... used 1/2ton diesel. Another advantage is you won't get crap for going 50-55mph and getting 40-50mpg in an old beat up pickup truck.

[lovemysan]

Originally Posted by Gary Palmer

Their just trying to retain their Fix Or Repair Daily status quo, or Found On Road Dead.

Hey now, I've driven my fair share of all the domestics. I've personally seen 2fairly low mileage 4L60's toast themselves with no warning. Our F250 has had its fair share of annoying triffles but its never failed to get the work done.

I think it boils down keeping the vehicle maintained and luck. Sometimes you just get a bad egg.

I also learned a long time ago to let new technology(ie the 6.0 psd) "burn in" before you fork over your cash. Let someone else learn the hardway its not all its cracked up to be.

[Sludgy]

The Powerstroke saga continues.

During my return trip from NYC after the mileage test, the truck threw a code, and the service engine light came on. It needs a new $1400 turbocharger.

I've babied this truck, never towed anything, and very few days plowing, driving at posted speeds and hypermiling as much as I can. This is "Ford tough"?

Fortunately, the turbo is covered under the 100,000 mile warranty. Tell me: Why on Earth would I ever buy another new Ford product????

[SVOboy]

That bones. Do you know what's up with the turbo?

[Sludgy]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

That bones. Do you know what's up with the turbo?

I'm not sure what happened. Powerstroke "variable vane" turbos have several failure modes, and the dealer didn't tell me yet.

[Brock]

Hummm, I have heard of the turbos going on the VW diesels and most are blamed on not using the turbo enough or idling a lot. Apparently idling doesn't cover the turbo with oil and can damage them. I just make sure I exercise my turbo regularly

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by Brock

Hummm, I have heard of the turbos going on the VW diesels and most are blamed on not using the turbo enough or idling a lot. Apparently idling doesn't cover the turbo with oil and can damage them. I just make sure I exercise my turbo regularly

I think that kinda goes for most mechanical things.... What are the odds of your cruise control working perfectly after 15 years of sitting there - not being used? :P

[Lug_Nut]

The variable vanes can stick in one position (heat, exhaust soot buildup, rust, etc.) if they aren't moved regularly. My older generation VW diesel's turbo has fixed angle vanes and has its own, different, set of suggested operating points of which to be aware.
Since most cruise controls are not mechanical, and the separate items are regularly used (throttle being the main one, vacuum pump another) I'd be somewhat surprised if it didn't work after 15 years of non use while the rest of the vehicle was. Even the older (early 60's) mechanical cable cruise controls used most of the daily use components.
Hmmm...I wonder if the jack in my 1969 works.....

[Brock]

A little off topic. But here on campus a while ago they did a test by moving or actuating every valve in one building at least once a month (it was a running argument between managers). They found that they had 1 failure in 4 years on the valves they moved and like 15 in the building that never moved them. Of course the ones that were never moved were fine until they were tested, which was part of their argument.

[Bill in Houston]

I like the thermodynamics and efficiency of a turbodiesel, but in real life they end up with so many moving parts and high temperatures and pressures that they seem to really struggle. They seem to be better suited to long hauls at relatively high loads rather than the normal driving cycle of an american driver.