It's official: Honda Canada to revise 2008 Fit for better fuel economy

[MetroMPG]

Background to this topic can be found in these 2 threads:

- Up to $2k rebate for efficient cars (not just hybrids) in CDN budget - guzzlers taxed

- Honda weighs safety cuts to qualify for CDN efficiency rebate

---

Last week I read yet another public complaint by Honda Canada VP Jim Miller about the federal efficiency "feebate" program. They were angry that the Fit missed the (arbitrary) threshold for the rebate by 0.1 L/100 km, whereas the Yaris snuck in.

Once again he attempted the smokescreen that Honda didn't want to have to sacrifice safety for fuel economy (the Yaris has fewer airbags and a lower crash rating) and announced they were going to offer a corporate rebate to Fit buyers (and manual Civic buyers), in the amount the federal gov't was awarding to Yaris & Corolla buyers.

I'm not usually the letter writing type.

But I was so p.o.'d that Honda's chosen response to this situation was a PR campaign, and not simple changes to improve their vehicles' efficiency, that I actually wrote, printed out and mailed a letter to them. (They don't have corporate e-mail anywhere on their web site. Don't want their customers contacting them too easily? )

This was a week ago Friday. On Friday, 5 business days later, I had a reply in my mailbox. Hmmm!

Here's some of what Honda Canada's VP wrote [my comments in brackets]:

Thank you for your letter [...]. Based upon the length of time it took us to respond you can tell that over and above meetings with the Government, we also were concerned about the potential of a public backlash to our actions. [This first point addresses the fact that only 5 business days elapsed from the day I sent my letter to the day I received a reply.]

We most likely would not have responded [to the Gov't, I assume] if there had been consultation with the Government and a reasonable time frame to reacte; there was not. This is also not just about safety but about Honda's reputation as a company that tries to be environmentally responsible.

We have investigated what can be done from a technical point of view to comply with the Government's arbitrary number on a go forward basis. Action will be taken for the 2008 model year even though we still have no clarity from the Government that the number [the rebate threshold] will remain the same. We agree a taller final drive does seem obvious but it is no longer that simple with all of the other tests a vehicle must pass to meet different emission criteria regulations.

To your point [in my letter, I closed by saying that this seemed more like a response one would expect from the former-big-three, not from Honda], this is not typical of Honda but this one time, after much deliberation, we felt we had to act.

[...]Thank you for your concern [etc.]

Jim Miller
Executive Vice President

[minic6]

You made a very valid point and what would seem easy to us. Buttttttttt, to change a final drive all emissions test will have to be run over to see what changes it could make. With several different cats. 4k 20k 100k aged convertors. Will it actually give the numbers wanted? Not to mention you have to supply all of the replacement parts for dealers. Which requires ramp up time. What about the supplier of the trans. is that ratio even available? Or will it have to be made and then tested for durability? Implementation could take years. (No magic wand here) The logistics can be tremendous, regs can have a negative effect on fast implementation. Lastly will the buyer put up with the loss of performance as you and I have?

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by minic6

Will it actually give the numbers wanted?

You mean fuel economy numbers? It would be easy to get 0.1 L/100 km better FE with a mild gearing change. They could probably do it just by changing the wheel/tire size and recalibrating the speedometer! I'd like to see them go further, though.

Lastly will the buyer put up with the loss of performance as you and I have?

For $1000, I think so, yes. We're not talking a 25% RPM drop like I did to my car.

Sales of the Yaris went up by 15% after the feebate program came into effect. Fit sales only dropped by 1%, but sales of all other entry level hatchback cars fell except for one new model by Kia.

[minic6]

Don't get be wrong I'm not siding on Honda's side. All changes have consequences for production. There hoping for help pure and simple! Knowing Hondas track record they will get it together. All I'd like people to realize is you have to take the industries challenges into account. Even a tire change is not as simple as it sounds.

Not saying you are doing this, but there seems to be bashing for bashing sake. Not many facts to back it up. Yes it would be the quick way and probably the fastest to implement a tire change. Still it takes time and they are trying to save face.

As usual you do your homework well! Bear with me as lack of education to your tax breaks, is showing! LOL

[Mike T]

Haha, what losers! They really wanted the standard to be dumbed down. 6.5 is WAY too generous. To make a difference, it should have been under 5....or maybe cars that achieve under 5 should have been offered a larger rebate.

The real problem is that they don't offer their most economical engines in North America. Just the boy racer engines.

[MetroMPG]

minic6: I don't doubt it's more complicated to make changes than I would expect.

Do I think ALL Fit owners would accept a drop in performance? No - I think the best way to answer that question would be to make this an option, not standard equipment. And yes, I also realize that complicates production (and sales) further.

Still, as Mike T points out, Honda chose boy racer over efficiency. You only have to browse one of several Honda forums to find some of their own customers who aren't happy with the Fit's fuel economy or gearing. The general concensus among that group seems to be "Honda erred too much on the side of 'sporty' vs. efficient."

Mike: I would totally support a more graduated feebate structure. Currently there are only 2 levels on the rebate side: $1k or $2k back.

Honda would have loved a $500 level, I'm sure. But I'd also like to see a $1500 level which is just out of reach of the current Corolla/Yaris, to give that company an excuse to try harder, as Honda is preparing to do.

[basjoos]

I think just changing the gear ratios will have a big effect on the mileage of the Fit, even if they keep the ICE the same. When I went from my stock CX motor (70hp, 91ft-lbs, 8 valves) to the DX motor (102hp, 96ft-lbs, 16 valves), but kept the same CX transmission, my mileage didn't change at all, provided I didn't use the higher rpm range of the motor very often. So going to a more powerful 4 valves per cylinder motor had no negative effect on mileage since I didn't change the transmission. But now I have the option of a much faster acceleration when I need it (which I rarely do), but no mileage penalty from just having the higher HP motor

[MetroMPG]

One thing I can't help but wonder is whether Honda Canada will use this opportunity to also try to best the FE of the Yaris, or whether they will simply do the bare minimum needed to get past the rebate threshold as a way of thumbing their noses at the government.

And whether the FE improvement will be to all North American Fits, or just the CDN ones.

[Mike T]

Renault had a really neat version of this longer gearing back in 1978-79 with the 69 HP Renault 5 (Le Car) that we got in Canada.

The engines were all the same, Euro-spec high cmpression 1289 cc wedge heads with some pretty decent pep for their day. What they offered as an option was a different final drive ratio for the car's four speed transaxle.

The GTL had a 3.63:1 ratio and the TL had a 3.10 ratio.

The cars were virtually as quick as each other in acceleration, but the TL had way better fuel economy on the highway due to the significant drop in RPM. You could also wind them up to over 85 MPH in third gear. Top end on one of these cars was an honest 100 MPH. The TL could get to over 190 km/h (120 MPH) on a steep downhill! The GTL hit top whack at redline in 4th, around 160 km/h.

In Europe, the TL had the same transaxle but its engine was a detuned 1300 with a single barrel carb and 42 HP. So the fact that the Canadian version had about 25 more HP and a two barrel was kind of neat and gave the economy-minded a choice in Canada even though the car had the boy racer engine This was around the time of the second "oil crisis".

US Renault Le Cars all had low compression mega-desmogged engines with short gearing, so they never got to have the fun that we did.

My Dad drove his 1979 GTL to California with four aboard (and luggage) and he said that it was eating all the other cars alive on the hills on I-5. US cars were dog-slow in the early desmogged era....

[James]

It seems like honda could have made it more efficient if they had wanted to from the start. They have made quite a few super efficient cars, and it would have been easy to implement a few of these innovations into the current car for a small sum. Changing the car will probably be more difficult, but it seems a small gearing change or (easier) a plastic aero panel or tire change could be done.

[MetroMPG]

Anybody know when the next gen Fit is due? Is it for '08 by any chance?

You would think that would make it easier/cheaper to spec the new vehicle for better fuel economy, rather than tweaking the current model (paying for a second set of emission tests for the changes, etc.)

[Bill in Houston]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

One thing I can't help but wonder is whether Honda Canada will use this opportunity to also try to best the FE of the Yaris,

I'd think that they will try to guess how much Toyota is going to improve over the next couple of years, and make sure that whatever new model they put out can exceed that. Maybe they'll revive the HF or VX model designation.

[MetroMPG]

That would be quite something, but I'm more skeptical that they'll only offer an incremental improvement. They can't have their cheapest car cannibalizing sales of their more expensive hybrids.

[SVOboy]

fuel economy forum
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honda gas mileage

[Bill in Houston]

Originally Posted by SVOboy

They're planning on putting out a family type hybrid for 2009 that will replace the insight but be more affordable and have more room. We'll see!

Reeeeallly. Interesting....

[kps]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Anybody know when the next gen Fit is due? Is it for '08 by any chance?

Current speculation is that it will be announced in Japan late this year, perhaps at the Tokyo Motor Show in October. It has been assumed we here won't get that version as an '08; I think the letter confirms that.

The 5MT in the rest of the world has different gear ratios. The final drive is slightly taller (4.111 vs 4.294), but 5th actually ends up a fraction shorter....

      Rest-of-the-world          North America
      --------------------       --------------------
R     3.230  ×4.111= 13.278      3.231  ×4.294= 13.873
1     3.142  ×4.111= 12.916      3.462  ×4.294= 14.865
2     1.750  ×4.111= 07.194      1.870  ×4.294= 08.029
3     1.241  ×4.111= 05.101      1.321  ×4.294= 05.672
4     0.969  ×4.111= 03.983      0.970  ×4.294= 04.165
5     0.805  ×4.111= 03.309      0.757  ×4.294= 03.250

[thisisntjared]

i bet the rest of the world has a better 0-60 time since there would be only one shift before 60 or 62... all being longer but 5th is very weird though... i really wish just the 5th gear was longer or they had a 6th that was spaced like gears 2-5. shifting every 20mph while winding it out is pretty sweet.

[kps]

Given 5 speeds, I'd like to see 5th around 2.75 for highway driving and 4th near where 5th is now for city driving.

[BeeUU]

I am massively impressed that you received the somewhat personal reply letter. Seems like someone read your letter!!!

[MetroMPG]

Honda knows they are gambling with the public's perception of the company's "green" image on this issue (coming out swinging against the ecoAuto program).

Miller effectively admits this in the first paragraph of his letter to me.

I'm sure they decided in advance that (personal and fast) responses to individuals would be a priority, as a way to try to mitigate potential backlash from the segment of their customer base that is concerned about environmental/efficiency issues.

I have to admit that his letter has me considering more seriously some of Honda's points about the program.

I just wish they had made those points publicly, rather than throwing a hissy fit and basing the PR campaign around the safety smokescreen rather than the rational arguments they can make.

[Silveredwings]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Honda knows they are gambling with the public's perception of the company's "green" image on this issue (coming out swinging against the ecoAuto program).

Miller effectively admits this in the first paragraph of his letter to me.

I'm sure they decided in advance that (personal and fast) responses to individuals would be a priority, as a way to try to mitigate potential backlash from the segment of their customer base that is concerned about environmental/efficiency issues.

I have to admit that his letter has me considering more seriously some of Honda's points about the program.

I just wish they had made those points publicly, rather than throwing a hissy fit and basing the PR campaign around the safety smokescreen rather than the rational arguments they can make.

Sometimes execs 'go around' their own PR departments at the peril of the company's image.

[MetroMPG]

It's official:

Honda tweaks Fit, Civic fuel use

Tony Van Alphen
Business Reporter
Jun 13, 2007

Honda Canada is tinkering with two cars to improve fuel efficiency so they can qualify for $1,000 rebates under the federal government's controversial auto rebate program, a senior company official revealed yesterday.

Honda research and development staff in Japan are working to increase fuel efficiency on the Fit subcompact and Civic compact for the 2008 model year, executive vice-president Jim Miller said.

In the month after the budget, Yaris sales jumped 15 per cent compared with April 2006 while Fit business increased slightly. But Fit sales soared 30 per cent in May when Honda introduced its rebate, while Yaris deliveries improved 8 per cent.

Miller said Honda is confident it can achieve the extra gas saving for the 2008 Fit within months but it may be more difficult for the Civic, which is the country's best-selling car.

He could not provide any details on whether Honda is adjusting engines or removing weight in the two models to improve fuel efficiency.

"There are modifications being made," Miller said.

full article: http://wheels.ca/article/28286

[Randy]

I hope Honda switches from reactive to proactive. It seems obvious that fuel economy will get more important, and considering the long development cycles they should really hedge their bets with a HX-type model. A good number to aim for is 40 mpg in the new tests.

[Bennet Pullen]

The problem with the whole thing is the way the testing works. You can get a Yaris without the full compliment of airbags, which makes it lighter. When they test the car for fuel economy they don't test them separately if they have certain option packages added, like airbags for example.

So Yaris x has reduced airbags and gets 6.4 L/100 Km, that is the one they test.

Yaris y has the extra equipment added and is heavier and real world probably gets a little less, maybe 6.6 L/100 Km, but it still gets the rebate because it's option less sibling made the cutoff.

In the real world the Yaris and Fit (with the same equipment) probably get the same FE (the Yaris may be slightly ahead, but by how much?), but there is no Fit to compete with the Yaris X, and because of that all Fits loose the rebate while all Yarii get it.

On the other hand it's Honda's own fault, if they had imported the Fit with the 1.3 L engine as an option (and less aggressive gearing) they wouldn't have this problem.

[cfg83]

James -

Originally Posted by James

It seems like honda could have made it more efficient if they had wanted to from the start. They have made quite a few super efficient cars, and it would have been easy to implement a few of these innovations into the current car for a small sum. Changing the car will probably be more difficult, but it seems a small gearing change or (easier) a plastic aero panel or tire change could be done.

Is there a Honda economy tranny out there that will "Fit" onto the current US Fit? If yes, then someone could import a Honda Fit tranny with taller gears into the US.

CarloSW2

[ma4t]

Speaking of small cars, any news on the Nissan Versa? My friend just got one, and he loves it. But he previously had a car that had many problems.

He works for Nissan, so I can't really get an unbiased opinion.

Thanks. I've been reading reviews. Looks like the Versa has an extra 255 lbs. and got 26.8 mpg during a week of mixed driving here.

It's supposed to get 34-36 mpg on the freeway.

Anybody have an objective report?

m

[SVOboy]

fuel economy forum
vegan recipes
green home improvement
honda gas mileage

[thisisntjared]

man... talk about a thread jacking. honda is way better than nissan. 26mpg is really really bad for the size and acceleration of the car. the lowest my fit ever got was in the low 30s and that was while it was breaking it. the only advantage the versa has is gear #6, but the honda gets better highway mpg so that really isnt that great...

i didnt mean to shoot you down so harshly, but the thread jacking called for it maybe you shouldve started a new thread?

to address the issue of the gearing: i believe in another thread on this site the gear ratios were posted and gears 1-4 are longer in other countries but gear 5 is shorter in other countries. i thought its was particularly weird...

[bzipitidoo]

I get a laugh out of a Nissan ad I've been hearing lately on the radio. They brag, yes, BRAG, about getting 28 MPG! The disturbing thing is, does the general public think that's worth bragging about, as Nissan apparently does? I hope not.

[Compaq888]

sorry to thread jack but nissan reliability is ****.

My mom had a new 02 altima and the engine broke down twice. It had to get towed twice.

Next, I had a 99 altima and every couple of months something new broke. My mom got a 06 civic and I got a 99 civic. Problem solved. The only idiotic mistake I made was I bought a car with clutch problems. This is what happens when you don't know anything about cars.