Is it Legal?

[GeekGuyAndy]

So when I read descriptions of hypermiling, most cite a few tactics like drafting trucks and EOC, and most of those also make a little claim that some tecniques may be illegal in certain areas. Does anyone know more about the legallities of hypermiling?

For instance, when I look at Basjoos' car, I immediately thought that would get pulled over all the time for looking different. I started making a boat tail, but making sure that the blinkers stay outside of it. I guess I have to hang the license plate somewhere also.

Any ideas where to find the legal information on something like that? I'd hate to get a ticket for trying these things out.

Thanks!

[Fuzzy5150]

Tailgating to 'draft' is illegal.

Also, taking a vehicle out of gear while coasting down hills is illegal in most states. This also applies to turning the vehicle off, and coasting. Both constitute not being fully in control of the vehicle.

I do not draft, but I do coast. It would be very difficult to prove that anyone was coasting, or doing so with the engine off.

In the end, it really needs to reside with the responsibility of the driver to drive safely and prudently.

[McPatrick]

With your boat tail. I think just some common sense should do. And really, if you do get pulled over and you explain that it is an expriment to save gas, I really don't think you would get a ticket. It's sorta like a trial and error method with the state troopers. I remember reading Basjoos' thread and thinking 'he will get pulled over pretty soon' and so he did. But the cops just told him he needed to get some lights back there and relocate the license plate and such. You'd have real bad luck if you would get a trooper that would book you for your efforts to save the planet.
And if you really want to know for sure in advance; why don't you go and visit a highway patrol station. I think they'd be pretty interested in the whole thing. Downside of that is that you can't say anymore that 'you weren't aware of that'

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy5150

Tailgating to 'draft' is illegal.

Also, taking a vehicle out of gear while coasting down hills is illegal in most states. This also applies to turning the vehicle off, and coasting. Both constitute not being fully in control of the vehicle.

I do not draft, but I do coast. It would be very difficult to prove that anyone was coasting, or doing so with the engine off.

In the end, it really needs to reside with the responsibility of the driver to drive safely and prudently.

I think the coasting without the engine thing is very much outdated from a time when cars weren't as reliable as they are now. Perhaps with the fuel situation being the way it is today the lawmakers will revisit this and make the neccessary changes. At up to 41 mph, my Prius may at times may be travelling with the engine off. When done responsibly-key word being responsibly-these techniques can be done safely. I still won't draft a semi any closer than the 2-second rule because it's just not worth it.

[Erdrick]

Fuzzy5150 makes a good point. If you are properly coasting with your engine off, then it should be very hard for the people around you to tell this. Of course, if there is a cop behind you, then don't do it. Otherwise people will just think you are grannying your car (unless of course you are flying like a bat out of hell down a steep hill!)

[Erdrick]

Oh, and living in New York, I would assume that you might have harsher laws than say Alabama or North Dakota. Just my uneducated guess...

[skewbe]

Don't draft Semi's, that stuff gives hypermiling a bad name. So many people I deal with equate hypermiling with drafting that it really does damage to the cause. Trucks don't like being tailgated like you and I don't like being tailgated.

[baddog671]

Legality really hasn't ever entered my mind. Wether that makes me dumb or no, I dunno, but like said above, I try to use common sense. I can point out things on all of my cars that are illegal, and I could easily change, but whats the fun in that. I do not have front tags on anything becuase I think they look stupid up there. My metro sure as hell wouldn't pass state inspection..lots more. But, whats more important? obeying the speed limit and traffic rules, or a few oddball car parts...

[Fuzzy5150]

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

I think the coasting without the engine thing is very much outdated from a time when cars weren't as reliable as they are now. Perhaps with the fuel situation being the way it is today the lawmakers will revisit this and make the neccessary changes. At up to 41 mph, my Prius may at times may be travelling with the engine off. When done responsibly-key word being responsibly-these techniques can be done safely. I still won't draft a semi any closer than the 2-second rule because it's just not worth it.

No doubt the law seems outdated. Again, I think the bottom line is the use of common sense.

I'm not comfortable turning the engine off because of the additional steps necessary to manage the process, and how it takes my focus off the task of driving safely. However I don't at feel threatened by coasting. We travel between NE and Kansas City about once every 2 months to visit our daughters and grandkids. In NE Missouri on I29 there are some very long hills. I have never exceeded 70 mph coasting. It appears that the wind resistance and light weight of my car stops me from getting past that. Even on these long trips with lots of hills, coasting helps me maintain my overall average of 47+ with my ECHO.

[Snax]

Here's what the statute is in Oregon with respect to drafting:

ORS 811.485 Following Too Closely; penalty.


A person commits the offense of following too closely if the person does any of the following:

Drives a vehicle so as to follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the speed of the vehicles and the traffic upon, and condition of the highway.

Drives a truck, commercial bus or motor vehicle drawing another vehicle when traveling upon a roadway outside of a business or residence district or upon a freeway within the corporate limits of a city and follows another truck, commercial bus or motor vehicle drawing another vehicle without, when conditions permit, leaving sufficient space so that an overtaking vehicle may enter and occupy the space without danger. This paragraph does not prevent a truck, commercial bus or motor vehicle drawing another vehicle from overtaking and passing a vehicle or combination of vehicles.

Drives a vehicle when traveling upon a roadway outside of a business or residence district or upon a freeway within the corporate limits of a city in a caravan or motorcade whether or not towing another vehicle without operating the vehicle so as to leave sufficient space between vehicles to enable a vehicle to enter and occupy the space without danger.

This section does not apply in the case of a funeral procession. Except for the funeral lead vehicle, vehicles participating in a funeral procession shall follow the preceding vehicles as closely as is reasonable and safe.

The offense described in this section, following to closely, is a Class B violation.

Essentially it says nothing about drafting, and I have yet to find another statute that does. Most states are similar on this issue, leaving to the somewhat arbitrary discretion of the officer.

It is generally considered a safe distance if you go by the 2 second rule, but I doubt one will ever get stopped for cutting that down by as much as half. I feel that is too close to be safe, though according to the Oregon statute, it is not specifically in violation unless an officer deems it so.

[theCase]

Shutting off the engine to save gas is outside my comfort zone, but has nothing do do with the legality of it. With the loss of power steering and braking ability I'd gladly keep the engine running and in gear.

I dunno maybe I'm just paranoid. but I'm always a bit worried about the inability to avoid a potentail accident (e.g. deer/turkeys/children "suddenly' appearing on the road). Granted, having the engine running and in gear doesn't magically prevent such things from occuring either.

Anyway, I get a comfortable 42 mpg. It's "good enough" for me.

I guess it boils down to personal preference.

[VetteOwner]

Originally Posted by theCase

Shutting off the engine to save gas is outside my comfort zone, but has nothing do do with the legality of it. With the loss of power steering and braking ability I'd gladly keep the engine running and in gear.

I dunno maybe I'm just paranoid. but I'm always a bit worried about the inability to avoid a potentail accident (e.g. deer/turkeys/children "suddenly' appearing on the road). Granted, having the engine running and in gear doesn't magically prevent such things from occuring either.

Anyway, I get a comfortable 42 mpg. It's "good enough" for me.

I guess it boils down to personal preference.

yea i agree i like having the ability to romp on the brakes if i have to in an emergency(especially turkeys, almost wiped out a family of 10 the other day)

ill coast in neutral (manual tranny) on a hill to save a bit and if i let off too much i engine brake like mad or if i barely press the gas it kinda surges(usually not but when it does ) so its just easier...

[cfg83]

VetteOwner -

Originally Posted by VetteOwner

yea i agree i like having the ability to romp on the brakes if i have to in an emergency(especially turkeys, almost wiped out a family of 10 the other day)

ill coast in neutral (manual tranny) on a hill to save a bit and if i let off too much i engine brake like mad or if i barely press the gas it kinda surges(usually not but when it does ) so its just easier...

When I do EOC, I assume I have "one good stomp" on the brake pedal, either a hard brake or a long continuous slow brake. All during that EOC I am on high alert for any reason to hit the brake. If I am still moving after using that brake, I bump-start the car. I could try to see how many brake-pumps I have, but "one stomp" is an acceptable margin of safety for me.

CarloSW2

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by GeekGuyAndy

For instance, when I look at Basjoos' car, I immediately thought that would get pulled over all the time for looking different. I started making a boat tail, but making sure that the blinkers stay outside of it. I guess I have to hang the license plate somewhere also.

Thanks!

I installed a trailer plug on the back of my car and installed a full set of trailer lights inside the tip of my boattail under a clear cover that are connected to the trailer plug. My (lighted) licence plate is mounted on the underside of the boattail behind the muffler/tailpipe. I haven't had any cops bother me since Feb (the cops along my normal routes know who I am and they've read the article about my car in the Greenwood paper). The two cops that pulled me over earlier were bored small town cops who pulled me over mostly to satisfy their curiousity about my "funny looking" car. Never had any warnings or tickets and each time one pulled me over, I would ask them if anything about my car was illegal. One pointed out that it is illegal for the licence plate to be covered by anything, even by a clear cover or a metal frame or by the glass of the back window (which means a lot of car's driving around are technically illegal). So I moved my licence plate outside of my boattail to give them one less reason to pull me over, although they can always find something to pull you over for. The second cop pulled me over for "having my rear window obscured (I had neglected to wipe the morning dew off the back of my car before driving into town, figuring that the sun and wind would take care of it before getting too many miles down the road).

[slurp812]

Originally Posted by GeekGuyAndy

So when I read descriptions of hypermiling, most cite a few tactics like drafting trucks and EOC, and most of those also make a little claim that some tecniques may be illegal in certain areas. Does anyone know more about the legallities of hypermiling?

For instance, when I look at Basjoos' car, I immediately thought that would get pulled over all the time for looking different. I started making a boat tail, but making sure that the blinkers stay outside of it. I guess I have to hang the license plate somewhere also.

Any ideas where to find the legal information on something like that? I'd hate to get a ticket for trying these things out.

Thanks!

Following a truck too closely , or any vehicle for that matter is a ticket, at least in Ohio. In many states its illegal to coast downhill with the motor off. Also in Ohio, the minimum speed on the expressways is 45. YMMV from state to state...

[jcp123]

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

I think the coasting without the engine thing is very much outdated from a time when cars weren't as reliable as they are now.

My experience is that engines today really aren't any more reliable than the simple engines of yore...they just cost a lot more to fix. One reason this is going to be my last late-model car.

As for coasting, I'm still mystified about what part of not being in gear constitutes a lack of control. I was extremely surprised when I first heard it was largely illegal - although I have since come to realize that governments love to control, legislate, and regulate things just for the sake of doing so.

OK, OK sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now...

[Ryland]

the other day I was fallowing a cop down the big hill on my road and for the hell of it switched my engine off, they didn't notice, of course a good friend of mine didn't notice, even after I told him about engine off coasting, and the 2 mile long hill I found, but he did ask why my oil presure light and alternator light came on, because he hadn't realized the engine wasn't running, and coudlnt' tell without watching what I was doing, that I bump started, all while sitting in the passenger seat! so at that point I don't worry.

[DaX]

I put the illegalities of most hypermiling techniques in the same category as I do the illegalities of some activities that are deemed "lude" - they're never going to find out you're doing it.

[Telco]

Engine off, you can't accelerate in an emergency, and that might be the difference between an accident and a near miss. Even coasting in neutral takes away the ability to accelerate in an emergency (an emergency being something you don't forsee happening until it's already happening) although it's a lot easier to pop into gear so you have a better chance. I've had about 3-4 instances where being able to just punch it with a split second's notice over the last 5 years or so has meant not being hit by some jackass with a cell phone not paying attention to what he was doing. Luckily for those people, I am one of those that pays close attention to what everyone is doing within a quarter to half a mile around me, right down to keeping track of color and make. I've seen a few instances where said people came across someone who is not always prepared to make emergency maneuvers, and the results were not pretty.

If you normally do a neutral coast or ICO coast, try a tank or two where you coast with a hair of throttle applied to see if it makes a difference in your fuel economy, seems like I can coast longer with a touch of throttle than with no throttle. Might be close enough to where you can retain the full control of being in gear without losing much mileage.

[skewbe]

Originally Posted by Telco

...Might be close enough to where you can retain the full control of being in gear without losing much mileage.

I just did an experiment that demonstrated that (roughly) at 50 mph, half my fuel is going into keeping the engine turning.

Safe? That's an argument from myopic SUV'ers. Legal? Didn't slavery used to be legal too? Gotta think a little harder than that folks.

Quote of the day:
'Exactly,' said Bergeron. 'The difference is that we have the misfortune of knowing what's really going on,' said Bergeron, 'which is no fun at all. And this has given rise to a whole new class of preening, narcissistic quacks like yourself who say in the service of rich and shameless polluters that the state of the atmosphere and the water and the topsoil on which all life depends is as debatable as how many angels can dance on the fuzz of a tennis ball'.

[Telco]

No, safety is an issue, not just an argument FROM myopic SUVers. This is an argument from someone who has had to accelerate WOT with no warning, in more than one instance, to keep the wife and kiddies from joining me in a trip to the ditch because of some idiot doing everything but drive his vehicle tried to drive where I was. Had I been running in neutral or engine off in any of those cases, I'd have been in several accidents. I'm glad you've never had an issue with this, but it may happen at any time you are on the road. The only way you could guarantee to never have this as an issue is if you only did it when there are no other cars near, and as crowded as the roads are today that means you might be able to do it once or twice a month.

[Snax]

Sorry Telco, I'm not buying the 'having to accelerate at WOT to avoid an accident' arguement. In over 20 years of driving, I have never needed to accelerate to avoid an accident and only been involved in one (that was 100% my fault). I'm not saying that it didn't happen to you or that it can't save your butt, but it is such a miniscule point of contention when you consider that the majority of drivers will simply nail the brakes when faced with a possible collision.

I agree that coasting leaves a driver slightly more vulnerable to surprises, but most of the time whether they are in-gear or not will make little difference to accident avoidance ability. More often than not, braking and or swerving is the more prudent thing to do and the automatic reflex for most.

[Gary Palmer]

I am more concerned with "Is it safe" than "Is it legal". The laws and statutes are their because some dink dong, at some time, did something stupid and got hurt. If the person hadn't done something stupid, they wouldn't have been hurt and the state would not have had to create the statute to protect us from ourselves.

Some cars have power steering, power brakes and automatic transmissions. In many of those instances it is probably less safe to be doing some things, like coasting with the engine off. In other cars, they don't have those things and if conditions are safe, then I don't have a problem with coasting with the engine off. However, I won't do something if I don't think it's safe, even if their is a statute that says I could.

[skewbe]

polluting the snot out of the environment and wasting resources is soo beyond unsafe and on such a huge scale that it makes discussions about personal safety rediculous by comparison.

[Gary Palmer]

Huh?

[Telco]

Snax, I hope you never are in that situation. Been driving over 20 years myself, with a lot of that cross country driving. Being able to accelerate with no warning has saved my butt many times, and in a few of those situations slamming on the brakes would have caused an accident, not prevented one. On the other hand, slamming the brakes was the correct action. Knowing that the impulse of people is to slam on the brakes when in a bad situation is what made it work. I'd just rather have the option of brakes or gas, not be stuck with one option in an emergency.

Gary, both sides of the argument have been presented on whether neutral or engine off is safe. IMO, it isn't safe to go engine off at all, and neutral is only safe when nobody else is around. Others think nothing about doing it. I'd suggest trying it out and see how you feel about it, then go from there.

Skewbie, as I am part of the natural course of things, I see no reason to not use what's available. I feel that those who think that any use of natural resources is bad should stop breathing the air, eating the plants and drinking the water because that is a resource waste too. Just think, every breath you take is slaughtering millions of bacteria! And who says that lettuce didn't feel pain when it had its head cut off!

[skewbe]

telco say EOC bad, keep status quo, scientist give telco SUV

[Bennet Pullen]

My thought on the "need to accelerate" thing is quite simple. My car is not exceptionally slow by any means, and I don't thing I have enough acceleration "in reserve" while cruising in top gear without downshifting to make any difference in an accident. If I would have to downshift to get any quick acceleration out of the car I can do that just as easy from neutral or even from EOC.

I also think that when you hypermile you are forced to pay more attention to the road around you. Anticipating traffic or terrain changes we ahead is one of the best ways to improve your mileage, so if looking for coasting spots makes you more alert it will probably help you avoid an accident more than some extremely rare situation where a tiny bit of acceleration helps you avoid one.

As far as the legality of hypermiling, it really depends on the technique. I find myself rolling through stop signs or right turns on red a lot so that I can stay in second gear, and that is most definitely illegal. I also got a speeding ticket the other day while coasting down a hill because I didn't want to waste my kinetic energy for the following up-hill (I also thought the speed limit was 5mph faster than it was, oops). So clearly illegal things you can do trying to hypermile, but those things are not inherent to hypermiling in general.

[Snax]

I think Telco's points are valid, but the impact to safety will depend greatly on the car as Gary pointed out. Our Mazda5 remains perfectly controllable in neutral with the engine on, and it lacks the power to accelerate out of any emergency situation without allot of warning, so coasting with the engine on is no less safe than keeping it in gear. Engine off however requires significantly more steering effort, and there are only about two good stops in the brake vacuum reserve. I only do it when I am alone in the car on straight highways for those reasons.

My MR2 that I am converting to electric however has virtually no vacuum assist on the brakes and manual steering. It was never a source of overwhelming acceleration either. So engine off or on is of little significance (and one of the reasons I chose it for my EV project).

[minic6]

I think if you look into the coasting engine off laws, you will find they are ancient! Back when engine braking was very important because of the poor quality of brakes these laws were useful. Can't see the point of them today. As it was pointed out hybrids do coasting, so why not us.Having run out of vacuum quite often in the Metro it has never been a problem to stop. Just a little more braking effort.

Having had evasive driving training 3 times at GM MPG. I have been taught to stay off the brakes to drive around accidents, but not accelerate through them. That being said I have accelerated out of skids in the snow. How about others in the snow belt?

As to legality. It's illegal to drive 80 to 90, but no one seems to care about that much around my area. So don't feel to bad about coasting! If you feel uncomfortable doing it thats no problem either.