Why are the hybrid motors not in all cars?

[Possum on brick]

The hybrid motor what I read about it is that it pulles in a gas mixure too lean to burn it then injects a vary small rich mixture at the plug the combination still leaner than what a normal engine can run . The hybrid cars have a ultra lean burning engine. I wish someone would ask the President why these engines are not in all cars and trucks! They would get better hiway miles than a hybrid can because they would be lighter in weight and cheeper to buy without the electric parts. I am screaming why are not these motors not in the new cars by now!!

[Jim Dunlop]

Because we are not a socialist nation (yet).

Get together some investors, start a car company using this engine, and market it to people like us. Make tons of money AND help people at the same time!

[skewbe]

Opossum, I believe you are describing a "stratified charge" engine, still a challenge to implement IIRC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratified_charge_engine

[Bill in Houston]

Originally Posted by Possum on brick

The hybrid motor what I read about it is that it pulles in a gas mixure too lean to burn it then injects a vary small rich mixture at the plug the combination still leaner than what a normal engine can run .

Sounds more expensive to build than an ordinary engine. That's probably why.

[Sludgy]

Originally Posted by skewbe

Opossum, I believe you are describing a "stratified charge" engine, still a challenge to implement IIRC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratified_charge_engine

I'm not sure which "hybrid" engine he's talking about, but the stratified charge engine has been made obsolete. Direct injection gasoine engines achieve better fuel economy and leaner burning. Both Audi and GM are working on them. Orbital Engine is working on making a combination spark plug/direct fuel injector that could bring DFI to the masses.

[bobski]

Originally Posted by Sludgy

Direct injection gasoine engines achieve better fuel economy and leaner burning. Both Audi and GM are working on them.

Honda's been selling them since early 2004 at least. link

[brucepick]

Yikes.

Hybrid basically = a combination of features from two different types. As in a hybrid plant.

Hybrid cars combine a gasoline engine plus battery motor + electric power generation driven by the spinning drivetrain. This gives some big efficiency benefits you can't get using only gasoline.

You can also make a hybrid with diesel + electric or natural gas + electric or even hydrogen + electric. Same concept.

The concept is to engage a large generator when braking is wanted. The generator places a huge drag on the rolling system's momentum which slows it down, capturing electrical energy in the process. Which is stored in large battery bank. The generator is also used to charge the battery at other times, depending on battery charge level and the amount of power demand from the driver.

The battery bank + electric motor is used primarily in two ways. 1) When starting the car from a stop. 2) When more power is needed than the little gasoline engine can provide. This last one lets them make the hybrid with smaller engine than what would normally be used. So even when it's running on gasoline only, it's getting better mpg because the engine size is smaller. Yes it really works that way. As in, two Cadillac's, one with V8 and one with V6. The V6 will get better mpg even though the vehicles are nearly identical.

The hybrid cars we have now also use some of our best FE technology that's not usually used in other vehicles. Such as overall better aero design, underbody aero treatment (though that is becoming more common), low rolling resistance tires, and Atkinson cycle engine design (a slight modification to the intake/compression/power/exhaust strokes, try look it up in Wikipedia). And more. Whatever they can think of that they think will be cost-effective for that car.

Most/all of these things aren't related to hybrid technology at all. If you put them on a regular car or even on a motorcycle you'd get better fuel efficiency from that vehicle.

Dig?

[cfg83]

Possum on brick -

Originally Posted by Possum on brick

The hybrid motor what I read about it is that it pulles in a gas mixure too lean to burn it then injects a vary small rich mixture at the plug the combination still leaner than what a normal engine can run . The hybrid cars have a ultra lean burning engine. I wish someone would ask the President why these engines are not in all cars and trucks! They would get better hiway miles than a hybrid can because they would be lighter in weight and cheeper to buy without the electric parts. I am screaming why are not these motors not in the new cars by now!!

Can you tell us which motor you are talking about? Where did you read this?

CarloSW2

[cfg83]

bobski -

Originally Posted by bobski

Honda's been selling them since early 2004 at least. link

Thanks for the link, I love these details :

Major features of the Absolute (2.0L)

Driving performance

Engine: Newly developed direct in-cylinder injection 2.0L DOHC i-VTEC I gasoline engine
• The newly developed 2-liter DOHC i-VTEC I engine incorporates advanced Honda technologies and intelligent control systems, for class-leading fuel economy as well as clean emissions and high output --- two areas which are problematic for direct injection engines.
• The newly developed 2-liter DOHC i-VTEC I integrates the i-VTEC system, which combines VTEC (Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control) and VTC (Variable Timing Control), with a newly developed center injection system, for an air-fuel ratio*1 of 65:1, an unprecedented level of ultra-lean combustion. Stable combustion is achieved with considerably less fuel than with conventional direct injection engines, for which an air-fuel ratio of 40:1 was the limit. The new engine makes for sporty driving and a high fuel efficiency of 15.0 km/L*2.
• Combustion control through the use of high-precision EGR valves and a newly developed high-performance catalyst enable the i-VTEC I, while a lean-burn direct engine, to qualify as an Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle.
*1 EGR included
*2 Fuel economy in 10-15 mode (Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport calculations)

15.0 km/L = 35 MPG.

I went and looked for the car's curb weight :

Honda Stream 1.8 X (A)
http://motorzone.com.sg/home/index.p...61&Itemi d=60

Dimension (LxWxH) : 4570mm x 1695mm x 1545mm
Wheelbase : 2740mm
Min. Ground Clearance : 150mm
Tread Front (mm) :
Tread Rear (mm) :
Curb Weight (kg) : 1350

1350 kg = 2976 lbs.

Hrmmmm. I was actually hoping for more curb weight so that the MPG would look even better. But I guess for a minivan this is pretty good.

CarloSW2

[jcp123]

I thought Honda had lean burn engines similar to this idea back in the 70's. If it gets good torque and decent power, I'm all for it.

[Ryland]

when I first read the first post on this page it sounded almost excactly like the CVCC engine that honda made starting in the late 70's, and sold up untill 1987 when they switched from carburated to fuel injected, and as much as I like fuel injection, the cvcc head design was amazing, and simple, it would just require two fuel injection systems, or a fuel injection and carburation set up.

[DaX]

Stratified Charge engines have been around for a long time - this was the technology that produced our beloved Civic. The real name of the Civic, or CVCC is the "stratified charge, compound vortex controlled combustion" - they got the stratified charge part down pat, but the compound vortex part was hard to get. Calling it the SCCVCC would just sound bad, so they dropped the SC and called it the CVCC, even though it was more stratified charge than compound vortex.

[Telco]

Yes, the CVCC was a stratified charge engine. My dad had one for a short time, danged thing had a carb and got 60MPG, and while it wasn't the fastest thing I ever drove it got itself down the road pretty good. Honda's based pretty much all their engines off the same technology, updating it as they went. This is why they can get an average of 30 percent better fuel efficiency than a domestic at the same power levels, and why most of their engines meet the ULEV standards.

What I want to see is not a hybrid, but an actual diesel electric vehicle like a train where the engine is completely disconnected from the drivetrain, like a locomotive. They could probably use this to put a 1 liter diesel engine into a full size car, drive it at normal highway speeds with normal accelleration, and see 60-70MPG out of it, if not more. A locomotive is able to move thousands of tons of materials cross country more efficiently than a semi can, so obviously the power is there. Scaling it down to a car size shouldn't be that hard. Found a web site that stated a diesel electric train normally uses 1.5 gallons per mile, but as we all know that 1.5 gallons per mile is moving about 300 semi tractor loads worth of goods. This means that those semis would have to all be getting about 200 miles per gallon to match that train.

Course, it may no longer be necessary.

[bobski]

Originally Posted by Telco

Course, it may no longer be necessary.

Interesting. I assume they use heavily spring-loaded cylinders (AKA a hydraulic accumulator) to store energy? Such a system would make sense if they were using a hydraulic transmission... A pump attached to the engine and hyraulic motors on each wheel, as commonly found on industrial equipment. Otherwise, it seems like they could have chosen a less complex spring energy-storage system.

If they're comparing it to NiMH batteries, they must have managed a pretty respectable energy capacity, which either means lots of fluid volume, or ridiculously high pressures.
Then again, they only seem to be talking about the energy storage efficiency - the energy the system releases compared to what was used to charge it. In that case, it might have a relatively small storage capacity, and they're just trying to talk their way around that imperfection.
Even if it only has enough energy storage capacity to accelerate away from a light or two, it could still be a significant help FE-wise with city type stop-and-go conditions, preticularly with such a heavy vehicle. If it's as efficient as they say, alot of the kinetic energy of the moving vehicle could be reclaimed during braking and re-used to accelerate. Unlike a battery, there would be almost no limitation on charge rate, and running it down to zero would have little effect on it's longevity.
On the other hand, so little capacity would probably be useless in steady-state driving like on the highway. I guess they could conceiveably use it as a sort of automatic pulse and glide system... The engine starts up, drives the wheels and fully charges the hydraulic storage, then shuts off and lets the storage keep the vehicle moving. Once the storage is nearly drained, the engine starts up again. Done properly, there would be no noticable change in vehicle speed or acceleration, but the engine constantly cycling on and off might be distracting for the average driver.

[Telco]

Unfortunately they didn't go into the details, which I wouldn't either if I were looking at a system that would allow me to sell highly profitable SUVs that blow the competition away on mileage. That even beats out small cars like the Civic and Corolla. If they could fit the system to a small car, it might see 150MPG+. And I'm talking how normal sheeple drive, not how folks here who hypermile do.

[cfg83]

Telco -

Originally Posted by Telco

...

Course, it may no longer be necessary.

I know I heard this somewhere before. Here is the closest I could find :

Eaton and Peterbilt to Produce Hydraulic Hybrids - 20 October 2004
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004...and_peter.html

Peterbilt and Eaton Corporation are jointly developing refuse trucks using Eaton’s parallel hydraulic hybrid system—Hydraulic Launch Assist (HLA). Peterbilt plans to build and evaluate a production version of the vehicle during the next year.

I know that Eaton is working with Ford on this.

Eaton Gets a Boost for Hydraulic Hybrids - 11 April 2005
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...gets_a_bo.html

Eaton Corporation has received a $2.15 million contract from IMPACT Engineering Inc. to accelerate commercial development of Eaton’s hydraulic hybrid system (Hydraulic Launch Assist—earlier post) for a US Army program.

Parker Hannifin Introduces Heavy-Duty Hydraulic Hybrid System - 7 April 2006
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006..._hannifin.html

Parker Hannifin Corp. has introduced a new hydraulic hybrid drive system targeted at heavy-duty vehicles that do a lot of stop-and-go driving such as public buses, delivery and waste trucks.

EPA and Partners Unveil Diesel-Hydraulic Series-Hybrid Delivery Truck - 21 June 2006
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...d_partner.html

The US EPA and its industry partners today unveiled the world’s first diesel-hydraulic series-hybrid delivery truck. (Earlier post.) The hydraulic hybrid offers an improvement in fuel economy of up to 60-70% and a reduction in CO2 emissions of 40% or more compared to a conventional diesel-powered truck.

The CVT transmission is also mentioned. It's definitely a system that targets city stop-and-go traffic.

CarloSW2

[Telco]

Cool.. I can see it now...

"The 2008 Ford Excretion with new Hydrohammer drive, gets 60MPG in the city, 12MPG on the highway!

[korax123]

Yea but what can you tow with a CVT transmission lol

[Telco]

Found out more about it. The system apparently uses a large cylinder like an oxy-acetaline torch would use with a bladder inside. The bladder is pressurized to about 5000PSI. A regenerative braking system is used to fill the bladder with hydraulic fluid, and that is used to help launch the vehicle when you take off again.

If this is how it works, I'm impressed that they can use hydraulic pressure to get a vehicle moving, but that's about it. I don't see how they are going to be able to get enough pressure into the system during a braking maneuver to get the vehicle moving again, nor do I see how this will actually make a full size SUV or truck get 60MPG.

[Bill in Houston]

Like the pressure tank that people with their own water wells have, huh? But rated for >5000 psi... Well, maybe they can make it work. They have been "on the verge" of putting it into production for 8 years now, that I know of.