New Ford mods

[Tippy]

Hello all. I was searching the internet on ways to increases the mileage of a new Ford Diesel, and come across this site. I have read alot of threads and you guys really know your stuff. So, if you don't mind noobs, I would like to pick your brains.

I own a woodshop, and we have two trucks. An F150 @ 18mpg and a Chevy 3500 @ 3-5mpg (it has a 454). We would really like to get rid of them both and get one truck. I am leaning towards the F250 or 350, but I haven't heard of anyone getting over 18mpg consistantly. For a diesel, that just isn't right. I have read that the deplorable mileage is due to all the emmission controls. That leads me to my question. Can that stuff simply be removed to increase mileage? It seems backwards to me to burn twice as much fuel just to get cleaner exhaust. I am in ND, so I don't have any emmissions tests to worry about.

On another forum, Dieselpower.com maybe, someone said that these trucks are capable of 32mpg+ but wouldn't elaborate. I can't remember if it was because the methods were illegal, voided the warranty or would just make your arms and legs fall off. (I have read alot of forums over the last couple of weeks and can't keep track of all the info.)

Anyways, that was my question. Thanks everyone.

[2TonJellyBean]

"It seems backwards to me to burn twice as much fuel just to get cleaner exhaust."

If we run out of gas we stop driving, if we run out of breathable air we die. But the two should never be mutually exclusive.

I've heard claims on full size diesel pickups that run from staggeringly low to unbelievably high. Diesels will run best when running hardest (heavily loaded - empty they can be worse than gas) - nature of the beast. Sprinters are supposedly good on diesel while hard on brakes. There are smaller diesels in our future... but it's taking them forever to get here. :-(

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I've heard that the difference in mileage has little to do with mileage, but a ton to do with the cylinder head designs. Supposedly, back in the oil crisis days, diesels were designed to get great mileage at low load and haul a decent amount of stuff. Now they're designed more to get better mileage hauling and the unloaded mileage takes a hit because of this optimization. If you look at the emissions systems, there's no way they could hit mileage that much. Even the brand new stuff that's supposed to come out on VW's new diesel cars can only result in a 1-4% difference in mileage IIRC. And this is while getting emissions down to what gasoline vehicles are at.

I imagine just about any older diesel pickup is capable of 30+mpg with the right mods and driver.

[Sludgy]

None of the newer diesels get milegae over 20. I have the 6 liter 4wd Powerstroke diesel, and I average about 19 hwy.

If your trucks are 2wd, I'd take them to a shop and have the gears changed. If you go really radical, like a 2.73, even your 454 should get over 10 mpg.

If you have 4wd, it's just too much money to replace both rings and pinions.

[Tippy]

Shucks, I was hoping everyone would chime in and say, "Yes, remove this, this and this, and you will get 30mpg easy." I guess I have more footwork to do. I am getting conflicting opinions depending on what forum I go to. I have asked a couple diesel mechanics, but neither were familiar enough with the new 6.4s to say for sure what the solution is.

I think I am going to see if I can get it with a Cummins. I know you can get 550s and 650s with Cummins. Maybe I can get just a rolling chassis and put my own powerplant and drivetrain in. The answer is probably going to be no, but it never hurts to try and it doesn't cost anything to ask. All I need to do is find a good dealer that will actually know the answer and not just say no because it is easier. Or, maybe even one willing to pickup the phone and call Ford and ask. I smell a bet here. Any takers?

Thanks for the responses.

BTW, I had thought about putting a shorter gearing in my 454, but I didn't know how it would affect towing, which, when I do drive it, is what I drive it for.

[ezeedee]

what do you tow with them?

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Originally Posted by theclencher

There are plenty of people out there willing to say 30+ is achieveable. Problem is, none of them has ever done it.

watchootalkinboutfoo! I can pull 30mpg no sweat in my half ton pickup, w/o mods. if i toss mat timion in the back, i'll get 50mpg fer sur.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Mah truck has the aero drag of a full size pickup. Although, I will say that full size has gotten bigger and bigger in terms of towing, but not really hauling. For instance,

The GVWR for an F-250 SuperDuty is 8,800 pounds. So the XLT CrewCab mentioned above would have a payload of only about 1,800 pounds, or a little more than three-quarters of a ton. (Mybe that’s why they call it a three-quarter-ton pickup".) For two people and their luggage and "stuff" and a full toolbox with a combined weight of about 1,000 pounds, that leaves only 800 pounds for the gross weight of a camper or for hitch weight of a trailer. Believe it - 800 pounds is not much of a camper, and only 800 pounds hitch weight is not much of a 5th-wheel trailer - although you could pull a reasonable-size tag-along trailer over 7,000 pounds GVWR that has a hitch weight of less than 800 pounds.

But keeping the weight of passengers and gear down to 1,000 pounds will be a real challenge to some travelers. If the driver and passengers and gear weighs 1,800 pounds, then you will be traveling at your truck’s GVWR without any camper or trailer hooked on. And for your own safety you never want to exceed your rig’s GVWR.

So my teensy tiny pickup can haul 1400lbs of people/stuff compared to 1800lbs for a brand spankin' new decked out F-250 SuperDuperDuty. Towing otoh, is where it's left in the dust, being able to tow only a third of what the SuperDuper could tow. But, otoh, the SuperDuper seems to get around half, or a third, of what my teensy tiny pickup w/ no overdrive gets in terms of mileage, so even if it can tow three times more, it gets a third of the mileage doing so, and can only haul about the same amount. It's either a disadvantage or wash imo.

[stinkindiesel]

Diesel Power Magazine (maybe it was Diesel World or Big Stinkin' Oil Burner Truck Digest- don't quote me, I'm notoriously inaccurrate) just did an article in which the author pulled 31MPG out of a late 90's full size Ram 2500 with the great Cummins and an automatic. Cardboarded up the grill, made cardboard discs to tape to the rims, used a massive connecting rod as a throttle stop (placed under the go-juice pedal), kept the speed @ 55mph, folded in the mirrors and a few other bitty little mods. KEPT the dual rear tires and giant rear fenders. Didn't touch the tuning. 31MPG. That's Honda territory, isn't it?
I've gotten 21.something in my 1993 Dodge Club Cab with the A/C on, a 600-lb liftgate and the usual non-lockup slush-o-matic tranny and tall wide rubber.
I make my own biodiesel, so I make 5 times the fuel for the same price. That's over 100 miles per gallon, right?

[omgwtfbyobbq]

That's Honda territory if they drive it into the ground. Not in any similar comparison I've heard of... Great engine efficiency, but it's still a huge brick. With efficiency like that in a Honda the driver would see ~100mpg at the same speed fosho.

[Tippy]

Someone above asked what I would be towing. We have a few trailers. I have never weighed it, but that largest loaded with a kitchen (for example) and tools probably weighs in at 12K-15K at least. This is pulled at least once a week. I log 35K-40K per year between my F150 and my 454 powered Chevy 3500.

I am entertaining the thought of making my own Bio. I was raised on a farm here in ND and have my eye on a piece of land. I wold like to grow canola, extract the oil and make my own Bio. Perhaps start something like a co-op with area farmers to defray the cost of equipment. Just a dream for now.

You guys have me thinking about a mid 90's truck. I have always liked pickups from those years.

[lovemysan]

Originally Posted by omgwtfbyobbq

Mah truck has the aero drag of a full size pickup. Although, I will say that full size has gotten bigger and bigger in terms of towing, but not really hauling. For instance,
So my teensy tiny pickup can haul 1400lbs of people/stuff compared to 1800lbs for a brand spankin' new decked out F-250 SuperDuperDuty. Towing otoh, is where it's left in the dust, being able to tow only a third of what the SuperDuper could tow. But, otoh, the SuperDuper seems to get around half, or a third, of what my teensy tiny pickup w/ no overdrive gets in terms of mileage, so even if it can tow three times more, it gets a third of the mileage doing so, and can only haul about the same amount. It's either a disadvantage or wash imo.

I've had 5200lbs in our 95 f250. I've put 2500lbs in a 2wd dodge 1500. Factory ratings of the Big three pickups and the imports are quite different. I had a nissan rated at 1450lbs payload but at that weight it would haul no more and wasn't particularly safe.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Not according to the NHTSA. Course, it also depends on extra features too... A stripped down truck can haul quite a bit more than something with extra features and weight. Feel doesn't mean there is or isn't any impact on braking distances and handling, which is what the NHTSA evaluates to determine the amount a truck can haul AFAIK. Overloading is overloading is overloading.

[sargergp]

Tippv,
I'm a truck mechanic and a powerstroke owner. Get you a '00-'02 with the 7.3L and install the Banks Power mods. I did this as well replacing the muffler with pipe and went from midteens in town and highteens highway to highteens in town and mid 20s highway. Loaded or empty didn't matter much. My truck was a '96 F250 crewcab 4X4 with AOD tranny and 3.55 gears.
Good Luck

[flash7210]

Originally Posted by Tippy

Hello all. I was searching the internet on ways to increases the mileage of a new Ford Diesel, and come across this site. I have read alot of threads and you guys really know your stuff. So, if you don't mind noobs, I would like to pick your brains.

I own a woodshop, and we have two trucks. An F150 @ 18mpg and a Chevy 3500 @ 3-5mpg (it has a 454). We would really like to get rid of them both and get one truck. I am leaning towards the F250 or 350, but I haven't heard of anyone getting over 18mpg consistantly. For a diesel, that just isn't right. I have read that the deplorable mileage is due to all the emmission controls. That leads me to my question. Can that stuff simply be removed to increase mileage? It seems backwards to me to burn twice as much fuel just to get cleaner exhaust. I am in ND, so I don't have any emmissions tests to worry about.

On another forum, Dieselpower.com maybe, someone said that these trucks are capable of 32mpg+ but wouldn't elaborate. I can't remember if it was because the methods were illegal, voided the warranty or would just make your arms and legs fall off. (I have read alot of forums over the last couple of weeks and can't keep track of all the info.)

Anyways, that was my question. Thanks everyone.

Here is what I have found...

I have an '05 Jeep Liberty Diesel. On another forum I was told that if I unplugged the MAF (mass airflow sensor) that this would prevent the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve from opening. This was supposed to help improve MPG and so far it has.
A friend of mine recently bought a used '04 F350 PowerStroke. He did a lot of research on his truck and even printed out the Tech Manuals provided by International. Upon reading the manuals I found that the EGR system seemed to function the same as on my Jeep. So I applied the same principle and unplugged his MAF. Guess what? His MPG got a lot worse! I'm not sure why. Maybe his EGR system defaults to "open" where mine defaults to "closed."

My suggestion? If you get a used diesel, cut out the catalytic converter and muffler. Clean the oil residue out of the intercooler and intake tubes and find a way to disable the EGR valve. All these can help improve MPG.
Better yet, keep one of the two trucks you already have and sell the other. Use the money to convert the other to a diesel by installing a 4BT Cummins. These engines are very common and conversion kits are available. I've heard of guys boosting these engines up to 350 HP and still getting 30 MPG!

[flash7210]

Originally Posted by Tippy

Hello all. I was searching the internet on ways to increases the mileage of a new Ford Diesel, and come across this site. I have read alot of threads and you guys really know your stuff. So, if you don't mind noobs, I would like to pick your brains.

I own a woodshop, and we have two trucks. An F150 @ 18mpg and a Chevy 3500 @ 3-5mpg (it has a 454). We would really like to get rid of them both and get one truck. I am leaning towards the F250 or 350, but I haven't heard of anyone getting over 18mpg consistantly. For a diesel, that just isn't right. I have read that the deplorable mileage is due to all the emmission controls. That leads me to my question. Can that stuff simply be removed to increase mileage? It seems backwards to me to burn twice as much fuel just to get cleaner exhaust. I am in ND, so I don't have any emmissions tests to worry about.

On another forum, Dieselpower.com maybe, someone said that these trucks are capable of 32mpg+ but wouldn't elaborate. I can't remember if it was because the methods were illegal, voided the warranty or would just make your arms and legs fall off. (I have read alot of forums over the last couple of weeks and can't keep track of all the info.)

Anyways, that was my question. Thanks everyone.

Here is what I have found...

I have an '05 Jeep Liberty Diesel. On another forum I was told that if I unplugged the MAF (mass airflow sensor) that this would prevent the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve from opening. This was supposed to help improve MPG and so far it has.
A friend of mine recently bought a used '04 F350 PowerStroke. He did a lot of research on his truck and even printed out the Tech Manuals provided by International. Upon reading the manuals I found that the EGR system seemed to function the same as on my Jeep. So I applied the same principle and unplugged his MAF. Guess what? His MPG got a lot worse! I'm not sure why. Maybe his EGR system defaults to "open" where mine defaults to "closed."

My suggestion? If you get a used diesel, cut out the catalytic converter and muffler. Clean the oil residue out of the intercooler and intake tubes and find a way to disable the EGR valve. All these can help improve MPG.
Better yet, keep one of the two trucks you already have and sell the other. Use the money to convert the other to a diesel by installing a 4BT Cummins. These engines are very common and conversion kits are available. I've heard of guys boosting these engines up to 350 HP and still getting 30 MPG!

[ffvben]

I've driven in trucks with the superchip/reprogram. you can choose different reprograms, economy, tow, horsepower. I've driven in a 6.0ford with massive hp, it smokes the dully tires fast. I haven't driven one in economy mode yet, I'm guessing it cuts the fuel delivery?? that might be a easy way to go to get better mpg. also 15qts of synthetic oil sounds expensive for one oil change, but that should boost mgp.

[Spencyg]

A couple things:

First of all, Ford stopped using International diesels in '95. Diesels don't have catalytic converters.

The engine that provides the best mileage is the 5.9L Cummins. The Powerstroke and Duramax just don't have the mileage ability that the Cummins does. Stay away from the new 6.7L Cummins too....its lost all of the efficiency its older brother attained. I have MANY friends who drive the Dodge 3/4 and 1 Ton trucks with the 5.9, and none of them ever report below 20MPG towing at capacity. Running empty, they all get between 22-25MPG. Anybody who tells you they get near 30MPG in a full size truck (without crazy aero mods) is pulling your leg....anybody who says "they talked to this guy who said...." blah blah blah. Any modifications made to the engine will either void the warrantee, or compromise the reliability that I'm sure you need to make money. Get a Cummins 5.9 powered truck, tow all day long, and be happy you aren't getting 5 MPG anymore.

I have an '86 Ford E350 4x4 camper that has a 6.9L Normally Aspirated International diesel. It gets between 10-12 MPG with a 3 speed auto tranny and 3.55 gears. I'm installing a turbo this winter which should significantly bump up the engine VE. If I get 15 MPG when I'm done, I'll be ecstatic.

Spence

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Originally Posted by Spencyg

Diesels don't have catalytic converters.

Diesels don't have three-way catalytic converters. They do have two-way catalytic converters.

Originally Posted by Spencyg

Anybody who tells you they get near 30MPG in a full size truck (without crazy aero mods) is pulling your leg....anybody who says "they talked to this guy who said...." blah blah blah.

*~30mpg@55mph in an unloaded 4bt powered dodge ram is possible through appropriate gearing, just not practical for towing. Otoh, a GV OD unit with an appropriately geared transmission should be able to get ~27mpg@55mph unloaded, w/o significantly compromising power available for towing. But, like ya said, most people who can afford something that big probably won't bother driving 55mph or worry about gearing, and if it's new, there's no point in even risking any kind of warranty trouble.

*Cd=.45, A=3.25m^2, BSFC=250g/kWh, API-32 fuel, W=26,600N, Crr=.01

[Big Dave]

Hey Tippy. I get very good MPG from a Ford F-350.

I have been working on this for about seven years now and found a few things that can help.

If you have not bought one yet, you are at the point that can save the most fuel. Spec one out and start with a good truck and work from there.

My advice is to buy a 4x2 if you can live with one. I did just fine in western NE with a 4x2. If you have to go out on muddy worksites then 4x4 is necessary, but a 4x4 will cost you 2 MPG right off the top.

Second piece of advice: Get a manual. The Ford Super Duties use the excellent ZF-6. This is the tranny from a german deuce-and-a-half military truck. Very durable. I have 200,000 miles on the OEM clutch and still going. Automatics live a rough life behind slow-revving diesels. An automatic will cost you 2 MPG right off the top and give you years of trouble.

For your work, maybe getting a chassis cab and getting a work body to do what you need to do. If a regular body is OK, consider a tonneau cover - hard of soft will do. Good for a 1.5 MPG improvement over an open bed.

All the 2008 diesels (Ford, Dodge, Chevy or should I say International, Cummins, Isuzu) are choked by emissions equipment. Monkeying with the emissions equoipment will invalidate your warranty on the spot. After you run out the warranty, I would remove that stuff the next day.

[SD26]

The Ford 7.3 Power Stroke is a light truck version of the International T444E. There are some things between the two that are different, many of them are cost related issues to keep the price of the engine down for Ford customers. The waterpump is one example.

The cooling system on the 7.3 Power Stroke is way over kill. Additionally, the ECM does not use the coolant temperature in making adjustments to fuel timing, ratios, etc. All of that is done by using oil temperatures.

When the 7.3 Power Stroke was introduced in 1994.5 through somewhere in '95/'96, Ford used and inventoried thermostats that were 203 degrees, the same that International used in the T444E. The EPA intervened and found that the light duty Ford motor produced too many NO2 emissions. Ford replaced its inventory with a 195 degree thermostat. They are not interchangeable between the T444E, which is a medium duty application, and the 7.3 Power Stroke because of the difference in the water pumps. There are some places that are making 203 degree thermostats for 7.3's. It raises the oil temperature, and I found that doing that improved my FE about a 1/2 to 3/4 MPG. Additionally, throttle response was better, and the engine was smoother in the 1800 to 2000 RPM's when the 7.3's kind of drone a bit.

More information here...
http://www.dieselsite.com/index.asp?...ROD&ProdID=186

30MPG? I think you'd have to work hard to get it. Generally, often, the problem with a diesel is that it has so much umph, they get to be too fun to drive; it's a rush.

[DarbyWalters]

I can get 30+ on the highway but I have a 2.8L CRD in a 4300# vehicle. Before the Lift and bigger tires I had hit 33+ a couple of times. I have the MAF defeated but on the Liberty it is a "single loop" sensor, so it does not affect anything else. Just bloked off some more of my grill today...hope it helps...

[jcp123]

Off topic, but 3-5mpg with a 454? We got 8 highway in a loaded-down '87 Dolphin 34.5' motorhome with a 454 on the highway. Never ran enough in-town miles, of course, to see what that was but accelerating 10.000lbs it must not have been good. If yours is getting that low mileage in a pickemup, I'd say there's something wrong with it.

As to the diesels, trucks here don't get much better than gassers unloaded, but are built to haul. Under load they outperform gassers in fuel economy quite significantly. Diesel tuners and a good 4" or 5" exhaust can really help them out, too.

[monobox]

Originally Posted by flash7210

Here is what I have found...

My suggestion? If you get a used diesel, cut out the catalytic converter and muffler. Clean the oil residue out of the intercooler and intake tubes and find a way to disable the EGR valve. All these can help improve MPG.
Better yet, keep one of the two trucks you already have and sell the other. Use the money to convert the other to a diesel by installing a 4BT Cummins. These engines are very common and conversion kits are available. I've heard of guys boosting these engines up to 350 HP and still getting 30 MPG!

In Brazil the Ford F-350 is available with a Cummins 4BT 3.9 litre tubodiesel. See: http://www.fordcaminhoes.com.br/caminhoesnew/#F350

That would probably get better fuel economy than any full size pickup sold in the US. I once drove a medium duty cabover truck with this engine and it was very rough running and noisy but probably not as bad if it is mounted in front of the cab on a pickup.

[SD26]

That F350 seems like it's pretty light compared to an F350 in the domestic market. Still interesting. Probably a licensing issue with Cummins in USA.

[monobox]

The Cummins B3.9 engine is also sold in Brazil in the dual rear wheel F-4000 which looks like a US F-450. See: http://www.fordcaminhoes.com.br/caminhoesnew/#F4000

I don't know Portugese but just looking at the numbers in the specs it appears the GVW is 6800 kg on GVCW 10,400 kg. Multiply by 2.2 to get pounds.

[philp100]

I vote for a '94 to early '98 Dodge/Cummins. They had the 12 valve head and consistantly gave better MPG than any of the other light truck diesels. The 7.3L power smoke comes in a close second.
A mild upgrade in injectors almost always adds MPG as well as power. Advancing the timing event adds MPG and power up to a point also.
Stick to the manual trannies. They will let you get your load moving with less effort.
Many claim that a better flowing intake and exhaust will help MPG. I think that until you bring power levels up quite a bit it has no affect.

[Big Dave]

Another claim of Cummins MPG superiority. I hear them a lot but when I throw down the gauntlet for a a MPG roadtrip to separate the truth from the BS...crickets. All the Cummins boosters shut up and run.

Yeah I know about the guys in Diesel Power with the 30 MPG Dodge Cummins. All the grille blocking etc was window dressing. They got 30 MPG by driving 40 MPH.

I'll see that and raise them one. If I can just idle down the road (yes I can go down the road at 650 RPM) I'd probably scare 50 MPG.

There is other one valid condition for MPG testing. The legal limit at max gross.

[lovemysan]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Another claim of Cummins MPG superiority. I hear them a lot but when I throw down the gauntlet for a a MPG roadtrip to separate the truth from the BS...crickets. All the Cummins boosters shut up and run.

I'd have to agree. I've driven the 95, 99,00,01 psd. I've driven the 89-91 ford IDI. I've driven the 91-93 dodge 12 valve and a 96. Bottom line, the 99 PSD got the best mileage of all of them. The 95 psd got a one time tank at 23.5mpg , driven at 62mph on the highway. I think all of them were capable of near the same mileage given good conditions. My favorite of the bunch was my 91 dodge automatic. It was very simple to mod and tune.

[Big Dave]

Cummins engines - particular the 12-valve - are great fovorites for hot-rodding becuase that lawn-sprikler injection system can easily be made to pass enough fuel for lots of HP. That and they are very compact and easy on the mechanic.

As for being more efficient - t'ain't so.