The case for motorcycles. Why not use one?

[beatr911]

As of this writing 6 of the top ten on this site are motorcycles or scooters. It's no surprise that these are very efficient forms of basic transportation, witness thier widespread use in developing countries where fuel is a large expense.

For most commuting requirements they fit the bill very nicely. They are reliable, cheap to buy, cheap to own, easy to fix and augment owning a vehicle with carrying capacity well.

So a question to the forum participants: Who ISN'T using one that would like to, and what's keeping you from buying one?

[SD26]

Well, in many countries, the fuel culture is very different.

First, there are places that have incredible taxes added to the price of gasoline. Europe is a great example.

Next, using Europe as another example, vehicle taxes are huge. So, if you'd like something like a 3.0l V6 VW, you're gonna spend thousands extra for the purchase in addition to thousands extra every year over the cost of registering a car with a smaller displacement. I know that limit used to be around 1.6 to 1.8l engines. That's why there were so many smaller engined cars coming from Europe that had good mileage that the US didn't have.

More, storage is a premium. So, keeping a larger car in a city that's been existance for 1000 years can be hard. You just don't have the available garage space, or road space.

So, a motorcycle fits in a small area, uses less gas, and it doesn't cost as much to own. With taxation very high, affordability is important.

So, the culture has had motorcycles as a regular part of the "road scape" for a long, long time.

Here, well, I don't think people pay attention very well. I have raced motorcycles for over twenty years now, and, frankly, it's scary out there on the road with the cars and blue haired ladies turning left in front of you.

yes, I would lover to travel through Yellowstone by bike, but I still prefer an air conditioned ride getting there with the family.

Occasionally, I do get a yearning for a street ride. More for the tinkering aspect and the unique opportunities that one do with relatively inexpensively with motorcycles of all brands.

My current bikes, race only: SV1000S and a GSXR750. I have an old H1 in the works, but that's an on going project.

[jBubb]

Originally Posted by beatr911

So a question to the forum participants: Who ISN'T using one that would like to, and what's keeping you from buying one?

Safety. I think I'd kill myself inside a week, haha..... plus in the winter time, a motorcycle is out of the question, here in Colorado.

[8307c4]

uhm, mostly because it won't tow my trailer and equipment.

As for the cars, I hardly put 5,000 miles a year on them both, then I'd rather drive less still before I get on a bike, if it came to that.

Because I'd rather get crappy mileage but great economy, then there's the safety factor.

[SD26]

Originally Posted by jBubb

plus in the winter time, a motorcycle is out of the question, here in Colorado.

LOL!

[dkjones96]

Too many idiots on the road here to get a bike. I mean, I'd LOVE one. 50-60mpg driving to work would cut my expenses enough for the bike to actually pay for itself, but I can't bring myself to buy one with the way people drive here in New Mexico.

[hawkgt647]

Most people will respect a motorcyclist, but there are always a few idiots that either don't pay attention or claim "I didn't see you". Always ride with an escape plan - plan on them NOT seeing you.

Riding a 2 wheel vehicle is higher risk and you are more exposed - to the weather and bodily harm. Icy or packed snow on roads can be very tricky.

Storage or hauling is limited. But you can get creative with tank bags and saddlebags. Or using lots of bungee straps.

Most motorcycles are much dirtier than a modern car in respect to emissions. A few have catalytic converters (mainly newer models).

Fuel mileage can be great with a small to medium sized bike that is ridden with economy in mind ( resist the calling to blast thru the gears!)

Years ago I would ride year round. Now I'm a wimp - when the temps get below 50 deg F, I stop riding.

[Jim Dunlop]

Check out what's been happening in the Midwest over the past week. I'd be up a creek. In fact, many of the shop guys razz me up for not having a truck in this weather!

[Dust]

License is the only reason I don’t have one. If it was as easy to get a license here in Japan as it was in the states, I would have had a license 2 years ago. Unfortunately, there are a lot of problems with getting one, and the BS bureaucracy here. I will try for one next year just to see how bad it really is, and I don’t want to waste all of the work I have done to make the pencil pushers happy with my paperwork. Plus it will be great information for those who come after me who want to get their motorcycle license in my program. We have accumulated a lot of car information, but the bike information is completely lacking.

Next, the safety thing isn’t as big a deal here. There are enough scooters everywhere that most people know what to look for. But, I ride like everyone in a cage is a blind deaf idiot hell-bent on killing me, so it won’t really matter as much. Plus, it would be nice to have two vehicles, that have less displacement then one of my father’s truck cylinders.

[Sillst]

I'm just broke and way to scared off the michigan winter. A ninja 250 would be amazing though

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by dkjones96

Too many idiots on the road here to get a bike. I mean, I'd LOVE one. 50-60mpg driving to work would cut my expenses enough for the bike to actually pay for itself, but I can't bring myself to buy one with the way people drive here in New Mexico.

Likewise. So far, I've personally witnessed two accidents - one high speed on the highway. Watched a truck merge into the guy (this truck was going a lot faster and weaving through traffic) :/

My TA for a class I took this past semester go in a pretty bad accident - someone in a silver honda something or other merged into him on his way to teach our lab! It was a hit and run too

[cfg83]

beatr911 -

I used to have a motorcycle and I tried to use it to save mileage on my car. It was great for easy FREE parking at UCLA and I could squeeze between the bad traffic when needed.

I consider the danger factor to be the "price of convenience".

But besides the danger, there was the overall wear and tear on my body. The act of riding my motorcycle in LA traffic wore me down. For my 30+ mile round trip commute, I was dog tired at the end of each leg. Too much stress.

CarloSW2

[beatr911]

I've been riding on the street for 27 years almost continuously. I don't ride when it gets below freezing in the mornings which is about 3 months out of the year. As for safety, everyone has thier threshold and thier own ability to manage the risks of riding. I takes focused attention during the ride to stay alive, and that is part of the appeal to me. It takes my mind off of work, family stress, etc. for a while.

I tell my wife it's a matter of when, not if, I get into an accident. Fortunately my life has been fairly accident free in all respects. I continue to learn safe riding methods and do everything I can to keep it safe. I just love riding and hope others can share the enjoyment.

I've strongly discouraged friends that wanted to ride, solely because something always seems to happen to them. On a bike it obviously can be very serious. It's better off that they are in a cage (car). If you have a fairly accident free life you may be fine on a bike. Everyone rider should take a motorcycle safety course every 10 years or so to keep the knife sharp.

[Mr Incredible]

I rode for about 15 years. The first was a CB1100F and the second an ElectraGlide. I don't remember what mileage the fastbike got, but the best I ever made in the Harley was about 45mpg. I usually got around 41-42. I can get that, and better, and have four tires, a windshield, a stereo, A/C, and a cup holder.

My biggest fear was having a catastrophic failure while surrounded by bigtrucks. Leaving this world as roadkill is not on my list of things to do. You've got be sharper than the average bear to stay untouched on a bike.

I'm getting older, and am lucky to still be upright and mobile after the things I've done. My Tempting Fate account can't have much in it any more, so I gave up on two-wheelers. It's scary enough driving a CRX in fast, heavy traffic.

[jcp123]

Got one a couple months ago. Mostly it was the parental units (*ahemMOMahem*) who kept me from getting one, but she's reluctantly backed down since my Dad and I got our M licenses together. Gotta love 50mpg, but my hands get too cold too easily and the season's turning to the cold and soggy one...I ride whenever I can, though.

[Mighty Mira]

It could be useful for the city. In Australia, you can buy the used postie bikes (Honda CT110) that get 1l/100km highway, which indicates that when driven with FE in mind they can probably do better than that in a combined cycle.



From what I've seen of motorcycle fairings, I'm not very impressed with their attempts at drag reduction. Consider how large an area the wheels are wrt the whole frontal area. Compare that to a car, where the wheels account for about 20%. I would not be surprised if they account for 50% of the drag.

I'd fair most of the front of the wheel like an aircraft wheel pant, and attempt to do the rear. After that a bubble for the front. In my drawing I should have made the top of the wind shield closer to horizontal, oh well.

[IMG][/IMG]

Revised:


The point of that is a good reduction in drag coefficient, while keeping the addition to the side area increase to a minimum (to reduce buffeting from crosswinds). Note that the wheel fairings will hardly hurt in sidewinds because spokes have a huge drag coefficient anyway, a flat plate would hardly be any worse. You could also stretch lycra from the front and low part of the fairing to the back, streamlining a large portion of the frontal area without increasing the side area.

Of course, the other option would be to go the whole hog with basically a modified HPV design, see here. Better drag coefficient from the front, at the expense of more buffeting from the crosswinds.



With a 105cc motor the fuel used in the glide portion of a pulse and glide would be negligible. But I'm not sure if you'd achieve a better CdA than the vw 1 litre car with those modifications.

[Erik]

I leave my motorcycle in the garage when rain is threatening or its under 50.

There are safer modes of transportation and I think this scares many people away from bikes. I have had cars pull out directly in front of me twice- but managed to find an escape route both times.

I sold my 650 Honda after I snapped my ACL in an embarrassing 5mph accident (all my fault- no other vehicles involved).

When I was in college, I recall seeing a guy on an old BMW boxer go down on an icy road. He just skidded to a stop, picked it up and drove on- just a little slower than before- he had more guts than I do.

[QDM]

When I lived in California motorcycles were my main (nearly exclusive) mode of transportation for about 20 years. For several years my commute was 80 miles per day, always by motorcycle, rain or shine. Now that I live in Bend Oregon the snow and ice keeps me in the car for nearly half the year, but the car I have now gets better mileage than my trusty CX500 motorcycle. I now have a 200cc motorcycle that gets better mileage than the car so it'll be the choice for next summer.

Q

[SD26]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mira

From what I've seen of motorcycle fairings, I'm not very impressed with their attempts at drag reduction. Consider how large an area the wheels are wrt the whole frontal area. Compare that to a car, where the wheels account for about 20%. I would not be surprised if they account for 50% of the drag.

Of course, the other option would be to go the whole hog with basically a modified HPV design. Better drag coefficient from the front, at the expense of more buffeting from the crosswinds.

Agreed. Motorcycle fairings are about styling primarily, and then some amount of buffeting as a secondary concern. Recently, yeah, there has been a bit more attention as there hasn't been many huge strides in MC engines for a while. They are making them more powerful with more rev's, but ti valves can cause problems over the longevity of the bike.

Crosswinds are pretty rough on bikes. In road racing they were outlawed from the international bodies in the 50's/60's as they led to some deaths on track. Yes, they did allow better acceleration and higher top speeds for those that worked on such designs, but they never really moved much into the main stream production market.

[usedgeo]

Over the years I put about 70k miles on motorcycles but where I live now I am just afraid of the cars. I take risks. I just chose different ones.

My wife and I road down to the store a while back on bicycles and the next week a woman on some medication had some sort of problem and ran over a bicyclist with her SUV. Same road we had been on. It does make one stop and think a bit.

[brucepick]

True that you could get superb FE on a bike.
But this Volvo driver here wouldn't travel that way.
Just too scary for me. I like that nice steel cage around me.
It helps keep you warm in the winter, too.

I'd seriously consider a Civic HX for my next car. But I think that's as far as I'd go towards lighter weight and less protection. One really nasty accident can ruin your whole day.

[Coyote X]

I rode to work yesterday

So far I have rode in 28 degrees F and 35F with freezing rain. I guess a dualsport is far more flexible and forgiving in bad weather than a cruiser or sport bike.

If you are worried about safety here is the gear I ride with

Olympia AST jacket
Olympia Airglide 2 pants
Cortech Scarab gloves
Acerbis X-tight boots
Dayton Modular helmet

That combo is good from ~25F to 100F I just swap from those cortech gloves to Alpinestars Alloy gloves when it gets warm.

[Mighty Mira]

Originally Posted by SD26

Crosswinds are pretty rough on bikes. In road racing they were outlawed from the international bodies in the 50's/60's as they led to some deaths on track. Yes, they did allow better acceleration and higher top speeds for those that worked on such designs, but they never really moved much into the main stream production market.

What exactly was outlawed in the 50s/60s? You omitted to say, and I'm curious as to what was outlawed.

Note the hayabusa has a token attempt at a front fairing for the wheel, and that has the best CdA of any of Suzuki's sport bikes.



The drag coefficient of the hayabusa is 0.56, or about half that of a barn door.

[mrmad]

Due to the high performance engines that most motorcycles have (anything over 600cc) and their poor aerodynamics, motorcycles do not get that great mileage. A 600cc would probably be around 45mpg and an 1100 would probably be lucky to get 40. A smaller twin cylinder might get you in the 60mpg range but are pretty underpowered at freeway speeds. As funny as it sounds, you can escape some bad situations in traffic by just blasting past it and you couldn't do this on a 250.

The other consideration is tires. A sportbike can go through a rear tire in less then 8000 miles (and much less if you ride aggresively) A rear tire for a sportbike can cost over $200 and $50 to mount it. Fronts last longer, but they aren't cheap either. And on a motorcycle, it is not a good idea to buy cheap tires or run them down on the tread, good traction will save your life. Touring tires last longer (maybe closer to 20000 miles), but they still don't last as long as tires do on a car.

Overall, if you ae getting one to save money, I think you would have a hard time getting a motorcycle to save you alot on long commutes when compared to a small, FE car.

[Mighty Mira]

Originally Posted by mrmad

Due to the high performance engines that most motorcycles have (anything over 600cc) and their poor aerodynamics, motorcycles do not get that great mileage. A 600cc would probably be around 45mpg and an 1100 would probably be lucky to get 40. A smaller twin cylinder might get you in the 60mpg range but are pretty underpowered at freeway speeds. As funny as it sounds, you can escape some bad situations in traffic by just blasting past it and you couldn't do this on a 250.

Is avoiding freeways an option? Plus almost every motorcycle I've seen zips to the front of the lights everytime it is backed up at a red. Then you wouldn't need acceleration at 100kph to save you.

The other advantage is that your combined weight on something like a postie bike is about 200kg or less. My car is about as light as cars get, 760kg for car + driver. If my car was a hybrid, ignoring weight of batteries, they'd need to have > about 75% efficiency with regeneration to be better than the bike. I believe the prius's regenerative braking system is about 30%, someone correct me here.

So you've automatically got more tolerance for more frequent stop/starts.

So, bikes have a tiny engine, which means great idle efficiency for glides. They have a tiny frontal area. With fairings, the drag coefficient can really be cut down, in fact, an hpv like bike can do better than a car because there is no ground effect on most of the vehicle. Rolling resistance is minimal because of low weight. Stop start losses are minimal because of low weight. Acceleration is great because of low weight.

[Dust]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mira

Stop start losses are minimal because of low weight.

Flintstones foot start for the win.

[Mighty Mira]

Originally Posted by theclencher

CZ was a Czechoslovakian armament firm (CZ stands for Czech arms) which made mostly 2 cycle bikes. They and Jawa were nationalized in 1945. This is a 4 cycle 125cc racer which has a "dustbin" faring which were popular in the 50's. These fairings were made illegal in the late 50's after riders had the problem of being blown off the track in high winds from the side. CZs were not very competive in the world championship road racing.

Thanks for the link! It's amazing what you can find once you know the correct search terms.

As this link posits, I believe the crosswind argument is a pretext for banning, but not a reason. It is not some magical property of low Cd fairings that causes large force in a crosswind, it is simply area normal to incident airflow multiplied by the drag coefficient at the angle concerned. The drag coefficient from the side could not get any worse than it already is. A fairing can increase that particular area, but it does not have to. My modified postie bike would have maybe an increase of 10-20%, if that, which is neglible (I don't count the wheels because spokes would be as bad as a flat pannel, possibly worse.)

besides the bad aero, most bikes simply aren't engineered for fe. the focus for most bikes (my addidion) is on max power and performance, hence the stratospheric rpms and redlines.

Something like the postie bike is engineered for fuel economy. Australia Post has no interest in their employees looking mean or doing wheelies. It's cheap for Honda to just modify their Cub for that purpose.

as far as glides, bikes don't glide fer crap. low weight + high drag = rapid decel

Again, there is no real reason why that has to be the case. My car coasts very well at 760kg. The drag coefficient is about 0.26.

I don't see why a well modified bike couldn't get near that drag coefficient, and with maybe a third or less frontal area, it would coast almost as well. It would coast great at 80kph or less, which is where you are spending most of your time in the city anyway.

Anyway, thanks for the response! It's amazing how engineers of the past got things mostly right back in the beginning, before Alfred Sloan created the transportainment industry.

[SD26]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mira

It's cheap for Honda to just modify their Cub for that purpose.

I think it's a cost issue with smaller bikes. You've got the actual fairing, then all the mounting bracketry. Mounting a simple fairing/windshield to the handle bars, a cheap, easy way to do it, rather than to the frame at the steering head also transmits any wind buffeting into the steering of the motorcycle.

Adding a fairing also adds weight.

Really, without a fairing, there's not a lot of frontal area on a bike. It's not smooth, but it's very small. I've seen race team test where they have gotten rid of the production full fairings and produced higher top speeds. Again, these aren't "dustbin" fairings to start with.

[brucepick]

I think bikes now are designed heavily towards performance rather than anything else such as FE. I don't really blame the designers/builders; it seems that's what the "market" wants, at least in the U.S.

To remedy that on any given bike - - -
There was a thread re. someone considering or recommending regearing the bike by changing the chain sprockets. I'd think you could drop the rpm's considerably this way, without changing anything else. Might need a correction to the speedo/odo depending on where the sensor is.

[SD26]

A lot of bikes have the speedo pick up coming off the countershaft sprocket. So, yeah, you'd need a "Speedohealer" to correct it after making changes to the overall gearing. The gearing changes are relatively easy to do.

They are becoming more efficient. More electronics on the ECU, fuel injection is common, but not as sophisitated as on cars, Cats on a lot of bikes.

Still, getting 45MPG on a machine that produces 0-60 times in less than three seconds with quarter mile times less than eleven with a cost of less than $10k. That's your common 600cc sport bike.

A bike's best defense is performance often. When I did street ride, it was important to me to make sure that I was going a little faster than traffic as I could manage better what I was coming upon rather than those that were over taking me, read as attempting to run me over...LOL!

The larger portions of the motorcycle market is cruisers. Standard and "metric"...read Harley-Davidson and the Japanese and other manufacturers. Basically large displacement twins from 1000 t0 1500cc's. There are larger displacement models too, up to 2000cc from Kawasaki, if I remember correctly.

But those aren't bikes that people are buying for economy either.