A reminder about injector cleaning

[gto78]

Just a friendly reminder with a short story behind it. My wife's explorer's mileage took a nose dive this month so I did some preventive maintenance like installing new plugs, cleaning the MAF and washing the air filter etc. None of these things seemed to make much difference.

I realized that it had never had a professional pressurized fuel injector cleaning service. So I made my own fuel injector cleaning machine/pressure pot. On ebay they sell for around 200$ which is out of my budget by about $200... Anyways I built one out of a paint gun kit from harbor freight for $29, combined with a fuel pump test kit from harbor freight for $10. It screws onto the fuel rail of the engine. I disabled the fuel pump and ran the engine from the injector cleaner machine for 10 minutes until it ran out of cleaner. The cleaner is made by BG, also sold on ebay. It's a powerful cleaner that cleans the combustion chamber, injectors, and valves.

I filled the fuel tank and gave the truck back to my wife. Our gas mileage has returned, and in fact is better than ever. Our best average fuel economy used to be @65 mph with approx 21-23mpg. Now we get 24+ mpg @70mph. I'll have to see what we get at 65mph now also, but this last tank was @ 70.

Not bad for a vehicle with that many miles which is rated at 17 mpg when brand new. It's almost the same as my stock 350Z.

My whole point is to remind others to occasionally have their fuel injectors cleaned with an actual cleaning machine. I think dealers charge about $85 for the service.

[RoadWarrior]

I just run a cupful of isopropyl alcohol through every few tanks. If your injectors are bad though, you might need to do three tanks in a row of it. It is the major constituent of many "injector cleaners" "emissions cleaners" "carb cleaners" "fuel system conditioners" "octane boosters" "water removers" "gas line antifreeze" and what you pay for it usually depends on what it claims on the bottle, sometimes as much as $15 for 125ml. Just get a bottle of 70% or higher concentration isopropyl alcohol from a grocery or drug store and use that. If you need to get rid of a lot of water/ice the 99% will do better. Less than about 70% will lose it's water when it goes into solution in the gas, so don't use the dollar store 50% stuff.

[gto78]

I actually use a lot of injector cleaners, I'd say once every month. Seems like a lot to me anyhow. I usually use B12 Chem tool, or Seafoam. B12 is the nastiest stuff I've seen, it will strip your paint off the car. I also use 3 oz Isopropyl / 3 oz marvel mystery oil per 10 gal gas. This is "supposed" to increase the efficiency of gasoline, but I haven't seen proof yet. Even with all the injector cleaners I've used it still didn't seem to make any difference until I did the pressure clean.

[Snax]

Or for about $120 including shipping, people can be assured that their injectors are functioning properly to begin with and get them back ultrasonically cleaned.

http://www.rceng.com/Fuel-Injector-Cleaning-P43C0.aspx

I am skeptical of any cleaning that doesn't involve removing the injectors in the first place however. Modern gasoline is already laced with cleaning agents, but they can't do anything to remove solid contaminants.

Edit: Here's a less expensive provider of a similar service:

http://www.witchhunter.com/

[kamesama980]

I had a friend with a 02 ford taurus with the flex fuel vulcan 3.0 OHV. MIL came on when it started running bad and he looked up online some stuff and apparently they're prone to clogged injectors and the fix is usually just floor it for a few seconds to get it to pass like a kidney stone. one the way to the dealer he did that and it revved up, bogged down for a moment, then revved better than ever. MIL and roughness were gone when he got to the dealer so all they did was say it had a code stored for cylinder miss and cleared it.

[gto78]

I would much rather remove the injectors and clean them but if I went that far I'd just clean them myself ultrasonically, or chemically and then test them myself. The only problem is the amount of hours of labor just to remove them and install them, combined with all the other components blocking access to the injectors like upper and lower intake manifolds, a/c compressor, power steering pump, throttle body, all that stuff has to be completely unbolted and removed to even see the injectors on my engine. A lot of people will have this problem. But when my mileage dropped from 22 down to 15 I knew there was a problem. After cleaning them with the pressurized method the mileage jumped up to 24mpg. I'm pretty confident that there isn't much dirt/solids/carbon left interfering with the spray pattern. Normally the guys who do the pressure clean for $$ will run two bottles through it anyways, especially if the engine was previously misfiring. I only ran one bottle through.

[VetteOwner]

Originally Posted by gto78

I would much rather remove the injectors and clean them but if I went that far I'd just clean them myself ultrasonically, or chemically and then test them myself. The only problem is the amount of hours of labor just to remove them and install them, combined with all the other components blocking access to the injectors like upper and lower intake manifolds, a/c compressor, power steering pump, throttle body, all that stuff has to be completely unbolted and removed to even see the injectors on my engine. A lot of people will have this problem. But when my mileage dropped from 22 down to 15 I knew there was a problem. After cleaning them with the pressurized method the mileage jumped up to 24mpg. I'm pretty confident that there isn't much dirt/solids/carbon left interfering with the spray pattern. Normally the guys who do the pressure clean for $$ will run two bottles through it anyways, especially if the engine was previously misfiring. I only ran one bottle through.

its much easier to clean them usign thr pressurized fuel cleaner. stock fuel pumps supply it with about 70 lbs of pressure thats 70 psi and pure injector cleaner, thats goign to clean alot more than your $3 can of carb cleaner

i did this to my truck not too logn ago and it made miracles. the chevetet i rebuilt the carb and cleaned all passeges but i might think about doing it as it has a mechanical pump i can access easily

[gto78]

I can't speak for anyone else's vehicles fuel pump pressure since I honestly don't know what they are, but on my truck the fuel pressure supplied at idle is 25 psi. With the pressure regulator at full it's only 30psi. According to the ford manual it's at the correct pressure. I then disconnected the fuel pump fuse and the truck turned off within a second. Next step was to connect the fuel cleaning kit to the fuel rail, and then pressurized the container with 30psi of shop air. I started the truck and it then ran on the cleaner for 10 minutes. While it was running I removed the vacuum hose that plugs into the fuel pressure regulator. This caused the fuel rail pressure to run at max-30psi. It also let less of my cleaner fluid to return back to the fuel tank, and more of it stays in the fuel rail.

[bobc455]

I'll cast one more vote for removing your injectors and having them mechanically cleaned (not just snake oil in the gas tank). I've done this with four sets of injectors, and every time the difference has been much more than expected. Smoother idle, more efficiency, etc.

The guy I use will do a preliminary (before cleaning) flow test, then a full cleaning, then a flow test afterwards. If you are lucky enough to have airflow data on your engine, you can put the highest flowing injectors in the ports with the highest airflows. This helps even more!

BTW a couple of injectors have been leaky or have burned up coils. I never really knew this by driving the car (symptoms were minimal), but after I replaced these injectors the difference was quite noticeable. If I'd never sent the injectors out to be cleaned & tested, I never would have know about this problem!

-Bob C.

[StorminMatt]

Originally Posted by Snax

Or for about $120 including shipping, people can be assured that their injectors are functioning properly to begin with and get them back ultrasonically cleaned.

http://www.rceng.com/Fuel-Injector-Cleaning-P43C0.aspx

I am skeptical of any cleaning that doesn't involve removing the injectors in the first place however. Modern gasoline is already laced with cleaning agents, but they can't do anything to remove solid contaminants.

Edit: Here's a less expensive provider of a similar service:

http://www.witchhunter.com/

Then again, there is a problem with places like these: vehicle downtime. You have to figure that it is probably going to take close to a week to ship to one of these places, a few days for cleaning, and close to a week to get your injectors back. Meanwhile, your vehicle just sits. This could potentially be a HUGE problem if you have just one car. Or, it could force you to drive a less economical vehicle for a couple of weeks. Regardless, it is just not convenient to ship off injectors. Having a way to clean them at home would be a HUGE advantage. At least if there is not a place that can clean them locally.

[101mpg]

I use Gumout's high mileage cleanout - 2 bottles in 1/2 tank and see results in about 20-25 miles. Seafoam works well in the tank for cleaning too. Basically upping the amount and decreasing the gas increases the strength - works pretty well for me.

[RoadWarrior]

Oh and the ones that aren't mostly isopropyl are pretty close to being varsol and laquer thinner. So if the isopropyl doesn't work, mix up a cup of each of those and stick it in.

The on vehicle or off vehicle "professional" cleaning treatments are using kerosene or mineral spirit based stuff. Low octane stuff though, so needs some help if you're gonna be running it through the motor. Basically you can hook up anything that will give you good fuel rail pressure, the motor should be warmed up, uplug the CTS so the timing doesn't advance, add about 10% methanol or isopropyl to keep the octane reasonable, then pump heated varsol or kerosene in at 40 psi or so and run your motor on that for 15 minutes. Be wary of anyone that makes stuff sound like rocket science, unless you're planning a trip to the moon.

[gto78]

I have two more points to bring up, well one's a question actually. Is there a safe formula I can find or use for making my own fuel injector cleaner that runs as the fuel for the engine in my pressure pot? Just like the above post, but I'm not sure I completely understand the proper ingredients.

The other point I wanted to make is that when you send the injectors out, they will themselves get a much better service but the combustion chamber and intake valves will not get cleaned at all. By cleaning everything as installed on the engine the valves and chamber also get cleaned.

Both methods have pros and cons, either way it's a maintenance service that gets overlooked by most people. The parts stores promote all the maintenance items that are quick and easy so it doesn't scare off customers- so they make it extremely difficult to find a cleaning machine for injectors and instead sell $7-$18 bottles of magic potions that really don't work.

[Snax]

Originally Posted by StorminMatt

Then again, there is a problem with places like these: vehicle downtime. You have to figure that it is probably going to take close to a week to ship to one of these places, a few days for cleaning, and close to a week to get your injectors back. Meanwhile, your vehicle just sits. This could potentially be a HUGE problem if you have just one car. Or, it could force you to drive a less economical vehicle for a couple of weeks. Regardless, it is just not convenient to ship off injectors. Having a way to clean them at home would be a HUGE advantage. At least if there is not a place that can clean them locally.

I agree that it is less convenient, but RCE is claiming a typical turnaround of 24 hours and Witchhunter is claiming 2-3 days, so 'a couple of weeks' should be at the extreme outside. But like Bob suggests, how will you know if one of your injectors is leaky or not responding properly?

I've actually melted a piston because of a restricted injector. You won't know anything is wrong with it unless you actually test it.

Regardless, you may be able to find a local place to handle it. Just be sure to arrange it in advance with them for quick turnaround, and you could potentially only be out of action for only a day.

[8307c4]

I wonder if this isn't what those guys running acetone through experienced?

On another note, I have only ever had this dirt problem running most any 87 octane, possibly some off the wall 93's but if the car can run a decent premium I have never had dirt build up.

[gto78]

I honestly only know one person in the last 20 years who's had a bad fuel injector. In fact the injector wasn't bad, the fuel tank had corroded internally and plugged the injector so badly it had to be replaced along with the fuel tank and complete system flush. My cousin works full time at a dealer for over 12 years and sees bad injectors occasionally. They do two possible things... one is stay open and hydrolock the cylinder when the car's turned off- or they just don't work at all in which case the CEL comes on and tells you misfire on cylinder X and also sometimes injector X failed the resistance test. Partially failing injectors are usually just dirty. It is possible for partial bad nozzles but rare as far as I've personally seen.

[Dust]

I would like to know what you built.
I found this site
http://iecoklahoma.com/ficoverview.aspx

Here are some others

http://www.dans-website.com/images/assembly2.JPG

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.as...&key=injector+
This is the kit that started the IEC oklahoma one

and I was also considering something similar to what you are talking about
a few years back.

After looking at the above kit, then going to Autozone to price it out, I noticed that the r-12 recharge kits. If you could find a cheap pressurized inector cleaner, like the Berryman or others, you could side tap the can, then use the r-12 kit to convert from it to the schrader valve on top of your fuel rail.

[gto78]

I originally bought a can of 3M pressurized cleaner but couldn't find an adapter kit for under $200. So I looked around for a can tap and never found one. I was also worried that it might leak and waste the contents. I finally decided to make my own that was reusable. The other reason for my decision for a reusable was because my cousin has access to the professional cleaner at a low price. The pressurized cans tend to run out of pressure before they're empty of fluid and also aren't controllable in psi like the refillable units. I like being able to crank mine up to 50 psi if I want to.

[Dust]

do you have pics of your setup?

I have seen someone who went really ghetto, using PVC and some fittings. Pressurize the pipe to push all of it through.

[gto78]

[baddog671]

When spring hits, I'm gonna give the Metro a big shot of cleaner. It might have had a bottle or 2 in its entire life.

We have an cleaner at the shop I work at that is an excellent product. It is made by Mighty and I believe it is just called "Total Intake cleaner". It is very similar to what you built, just a pressurized can that is sprayed into the intake tube(without filter) while the car is running. This cleans all the carbon out from the intake tube to the tailpipe. I went to a meeting where all the local business's meet and Mighty was talking about stuff, and he dropped an old sparkplug into some Justice Brother's injector cleaner. It bubbles and all that good stuff for about 10 minutes. It lookd alot better. Later he put it in a sample of the total intake cleaner and it started bubbling furiously again and within minutes it was VERY clean. When spring hits, I'll be using this too. I gotta beat my record this spring

[gto78]

Just so I didn't confuse anyone with my picture, this system I built is only for cleaning the inside of the fuel injectors and also the intake system that comes in contact after the injectors. It replaces the vehicles standard fuel supply by removing the fuel pump fuse and screwing my pressurized container directly into the fuel rail. When the fuse is removed the car won't start, as soon as I adjust the pressure pot to 30 psi the car will start and run until the can runs out. The car is running on whatever fuel/cleaner I put into this container.

[StorminMatt]

Originally Posted by Snax

I agree that it is less convenient, but RCE is claiming a typical turnaround of 24 hours and Witchhunter is claiming 2-3 days, so 'a couple of weeks' should be at the extreme outside. But like Bob suggests, how will you know if one of your injectors is leaky or not responding properly?

Sure, these guys may be able to clean injectors in the time promised. But the BIG delay is SHIPPING. Even if you are relatively close to one of these places (I live in Sacramento, which is not HORRIBLY far from either), you can count on AT LEAST 3 days shipping EACH WAY (I don't care what UPS says). If you live in the Midwest or East Coast, it is going to take even longer.

[gto78]

Basically you'd have to "plan" for a week's loss of the car unless you could find a local shop with an injector cleaner/tester. On aircraft we use an ultrasonic cleaner/jewelry cleaner. Aircraft nozzles are cleaned in either acetone or Hoppes #9 gun cleaner. Hoppes works 10X better but Acetone is the one required by Lycoming to do it by the book. What I'm getting at is in my case I'd clean them myself if I had the time to remove them completely. On this truck they're buried pretty badly and it takes hours to get them out.

[Snax]

The time investment is clearly a problem, but consider the alternatives of having an injector that is running something like 30% lean, while the others are running 10% rich. The oxygen sensor isn't going to see much of a problem there, and your fuel economy may not even suffer from it, but your emissions will be dirty and the valves in that lean cylinder may be burning or other damage may be occurring to the piston itself. So you can't count on the fact that it runs better and fuel economy is better to be indicators of injector efficiency.

That said, I'm not advocating everybody remove their injectors every time for cleaning, but if they have never been removed and tested for flow or function, you'll never know what damage a bad injector is causing until it shows up in a more major way that may require an even longer amount of down time. I'll concede it's not on the top of the list of things to be concerned about, but these 'magic in a bottle' type cleaners promote a bit of a fantasy that everything will be ok if only people used them. Clearly, as I have experienced first hand, that is not the case.

[bobc455]

Here is the guy I use in Georgia. He generally has a one (business) day turnaround.

http://www.codymotorsports.com/

If time is a concern, next time you go on vacation pull them out and send them over while you are away. Then when you get home, pop them in and feel the benefits.

-Bob C.

[invaliddata]

What year is the explorer and how many miles does it have?

edit: and why is there something that looks like a tire inflator attachment directly adjacent to the air intake port?

[gto78]

1998 model, 170,000 miles

[DracoFelis]

Put me in the "Snake Oil" in the gas category, about cleaning the fuel system (including the injectors).

I personally include "FP Plus" ( http://www.lcdinc.com/products_fuel_power.php ) with just about every fill up. I first heard about that product on the "Bob Is the Oil Guy" forums, and it came highly recommended. My personal experience is that I tend to have just a little better power, and a little better FE, when I use the product. The effect isn't huge, but it is quite noticeable (to me). And while the product isn't cheap (almost $50/gal + shipping), you only use 1oz per 10gal of fuel (so it's not that hard to "cost justify the price, especially given the current gas prices).

And one of the other benefits of the product, is that it is supposed to gently clean the fuel system (including the injectors) while you drive. And while I have no personal way to judge that claim (unless I wanted to take the fuel system apart and look at it), others on the BITOG forum have reviewed those claims and seem to think they have some basis in fact. So it at least appears that my FI (my car has "throttle body injection", so I only have 1 (or was it 2?) fuel injector(s) for the entire engine) is constantly being "cleaned" by the fuel additive I am using.

NOTE:
The other benefits of "FP Plus" (such as its lubricating properties, and the slightly better fuel economy I get when using it), would cause it to "pay for itself" (especially with today's gas prices), even without the fuel system cleaning properties. So IMHO the fuel cleaning properties (including any cleaning it does with the injectors) is just "icing on the cake" as it were).

[JanGeo]

Hey maybe the full throttle application explains some of my experance with my xB because usually after I red line it my SG reads better mileage for the rest of the trip. In my old Geo I ran a splash of STP gas treatment in every tank along with a little marvel mystery oil and without the STP it would have a bit of a stumble and lower gas mileage. Never got a chance to try Acetone in the Geo but the xB seems to like it a lot.