put water in gas for better fe?

[civic94]

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=mserv


i just spent about 30 mins reading that, i think its total bs.

but if it really works im for it

[dkjones96]

Looks like electrolysis to me.

More often than not if you can read the words free energy without having to scroll it's pointless to scroll. I did anyways because I was thinking at first they were telling people how to mix water and gasoline in the tank and just had to try and read on.

[civic94]

i really dont think water is combustable...

[red91sit]

Most gas has a bit of water in it anyways. Rainwater drains right in, or in worse cases, crooked owners squirt some water down the hole to make a quick buck. At anyrate, as long as it's pure water (distilled) it will actually do a bit of steam cleaning! and cool the combustion chamber a bit (usually a bad thing as far as F/E goes) as it's pretty inert through the combustion cycle, it does expand VERY quickly when heated, so I say if you can get an oil and a water to mix (water + gas) go for it! Or heck, I might first haha.

[RoadWarrior]

Looking over that site, it's another HHO system but...

The biggest problem with water in gas is that it doesn't mix with it, sinks to the bottom of the tank, freezes in the lines in cold weather and of course, if you pick up straight water in the line, it won't burn... If there was a way to keep water and gas mixed, it would be a pretty good thing to try. I had heard of some guy in the UK doing that. Think he used an emulsifier.

It's said that a third of the energy in gasoline goes into the engine in heat and gets dumped by the cooling system and another third goes out the exhaust pipe. If one could introduce enough water to suck up all that heat by expanding into steam in the combustion chamber before it gets wasted, then you'd have a motor that was much more efficient. Find an efficient way to do this and your 30mpg car gets 90mpg with the same power. (You'd be more likely to just double mpg though)

By the way, using straight alcohol as a fuel, no gasoline at all, one can use up to 15% water in that... heard of folks running old VW beetles on that. I think the problem with greater concentrations is that it won't burn violently enough. We could expect a similar problem with gasoline at a certain point. However, increasing compression ratio a lot could get more tolerance for water. Conversely it might be possible to mix more water with lower octane fuel.

Since getting it to stay in the fuel is a problem the logical thing is to introduce it seperately, water injection... this has mostly been pursued for more power, not less gas. Just misting down the intake has a limitation, in that all that one can do is displace air in the charge, ECUs might then see a "rich" condition and cut back the fuel a bit, but you're limited by the flexibility of the fuelling table. Hence low water useage amounts are typically recommended around 1/8 of the fuel. This is enough for chamber cooling for high power levels, as a detonation preventer, however that's not exactly what an mpger has in mind, so there's probably some more work possible on that.

I have an idea in mind for more effective water induction, however, I'm going to have to make some WAGs (Wild A$s Guesses) about induction flow in the vehicles I've got to play with, to try and make it work. Ideally, I would do a thorough analysis of flow dynamics and arrange things perfectly so it had the best chance of working, but I don't have that luxury available at the moment. It might in fact be impossible to do on Marvin, but Wile-E might be more amenable to it. There's a small number of motors out there that just might work extremely well for what I have in mind. While useful as a proof of concept, it's going to be a little unfortunate that not many vehicles will be at all suitable, and the ones that are will need careful modification, only a relative few might benefit without having head-work. Fortunately the head-work involved should have benefits without the water, so I shouldn't be screwing up Wile-E's head for nothing. While thinking about this, I got better insight into improving normal induction.

The good point about it though is that it might work in addition to other fuelling improvements, i.e. HHO, ozone, fuel cracking, gas additives, should still have further benefits.

[trollbait]

It's said that a third of the energy in gasoline goes into the engine in heat and gets dumped by the cooling system and another third goes out the exhaust pipe. If one could introduce enough water to suck up all that heat by expanding into steam in the combustion chamber before it gets wasted, then you'd have a motor that was much more efficient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke

[StorminMatt]

ALOT of people talk about putting water into gas. But the solubility of water in gas is actually REALLY small. I just can't see adding THAT much water to gas.

[Toyman321]

Wouldn't running a water injection system be a better option? I know this is done on a turbo cars to lower intake temps...

[milesgallon.com]

Toyman321 is right, water is good to improve performance, especially when you try to get the last couple of horsepowers squeezed out of an engine.

It cools the air allowing more air into the cylinder which means you can burn more fuel per stroke.

I have no idea if that is good for fuel economy but probably not.


The reason why electrolytic devices can't work is this:

Burn hydrogen and you get water + engergy
Hydrogen + Oxygen = Water + Energy

Electrolyse some water (water + energy) and you will get hydrogen.
Water + Energy = Hydrogen + Oxygen

The water as fuel machines just runs that process both ways.

First it uses water and energy (from the car electrical system which is produced by the engine) to produce hydrogen and oxygen.

It then feeds the hydrogen to the engine that converts the hydrogen back to water and energy.

Short: It uses the engine to produce fuel that is used by the engine, it's could be fun watching but it won't help your mpg.

It's plain old snake oil, too bad it's advertised all over gassavers, thanks to adsense.

Simon

[Toyman321]

Originally Posted by milesgallon.com

Toyman321 is right, water is good to improve performance, especially when you try to get the last couple of horsepowers squeezed out of an engine.

It cools the air allowing more air into the cylinder which means you can burn more fuel per stroke.

It also lowers the actual temp inside the cylinder during the burn, I suppose you could use this is you were trying to run the motor lean and still keep temps down?

[milesgallon.com]

You might be able to get some improvements in fuel economy (have anyone tested that?) but it's still far away from the promised 50% increase in fe that many water as gas programs promise.

They try to make you believe that the engine will actually use water as fuel which is not possible. It might be usable as an addative but that's all.

Where I live in Finland we usually add a little alcohol to the tank during winter. This makes any condensed water in the tank blend with the gas allowing it to be burnt with the fuel.

So you could add water with alcohol to have it blend with gas.

A cup of alcohol 2-3 times per winter is enough to get rid of condesation in most cases.

Simon

[94CelicaGirl]

I actually believe the increase in mileage in this case comes from the water being evaporated. No, water isn't combustible - but when it passes through the fuel line and injectors, it heats up and burns off as steam, essentially steam-cleaning your fuel injectors and removing carbon build-up, which reduces fuel efficiency. Continuing to put water in the gas tank will not maintain that efficiency - you'll get the same degree of efficiency when running gas-only after cleaning the EFI system.

[RoadWarrior]

Good point, there's the cleanup effect.

I am fairly convinced however, that steam is a better "working fluid" than the other exhaust gases, so capturing the energy in expanding steam can get you the same cylinder pressures for less fuel burned. Of course, you have to have a plan to reduce fuel input, the ECU might not agree with your intentions. But as I mentioned above, there's a limitation to the amount one can introduce before it quenches combustion too much when evenly mixed introducing it as HHO would kinda get around that.

[maxc]

It's the amount of the "type" of steam injected that counts. The amount of "none detonating inducing heat" that can be transferred back into the combustion process is tremendous. The CO oxidation speeds up. Flame front speeds up. But it takes proper mixtures. Not easy to control at all engine load conditions.

[milesgallon.com]

A lot of the comments here gives me the impression you could get quite good improvments in fe with water injection.

If that's true, why isn't any auto manufacturer doing this? Water injection is only used when boosting engine performance in competitions, right?

At least that's the only real-world usage I have ever heard of.

Simon

[rangerbentman]

Originally Posted by civic94

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=mserv
put water in gas for better fe?

i just spent about 30 mins reading that, i think its total bs.

but if it really works im for it

After reading for 30 minutes you still got it wrong. Nowhere does it say you put water in gas. HHO is the breakdown of water into what it is made from. You add the HHO gases to the intake manifold as a gas and your car runs on Gasoline and HHO and the HHO causes the fuel to burn more effeciently and cooler . The idea of running the engine with water as a liquid is not stated nor possible.

[milesgallon.com]

Liquid water injection is actually used in reality to boost performance. It cools the air in the cylinder which makes it denser thus allowing more air and oxygen in.

If that also increses fe is something I don't know.

To run on HHO gas as stated on the sales page is something I have never heard of, but judging from the astronomical FE increase promised (double mileage) on the sales page it is probably all BS and snake oil.

Simon

[rangerbentman]

Originally Posted by milesgallon.com

To run on HHO gas as stated on the sales page is something I have never heard of, but judging from the astronomical FE increase promised (double mileage) on the sales page it is probably all BS and snake oil.

Simon

brown sugar and snake oil have little to do with the 50% gain. Driving habits and HHO can increase your mileage as has been demonstrated numerous times. % gain is more accurate at 15-35% which is still better than what I get now. Sales pages are to get your attention ( which it did ) and hopefully cause you to do some due dilligence before taking it for granted that what you are buying is 100% real. Lottsa stuff on the net about HHO as fuel enhancer.

[milesgallon.com]

Have anyone of here tested a HHO converter with a scangauge and measured the difference it makes?

It would be interesting to see some independent test results.

Simon