Synthetic oil or not?

[needmorempg]

I'm new to the website and did some searches in the archives but could not get a clear verdict on synthetic oils. As of yet I have not tried it. I've been a die hard valvoline guy, seeing how clean it leaves an engine even after 100,000 miles using it. I've seen advertisments and have heard that synthetics can increase hp & mpg. I know it's more expensive. Do syn users still change their oil at the same intervals? Does it keep a motor clean after many miles of use? In the end does it cost more than it saves? Better or worse in harsh winter temps? What are the most proven brands? Would be used in a civic. Thanks

[theholycow]

It's my opinion that whichever type of oil is recommended by the car's manufacturer is the better choice, because you won't know how to figure the optimum service interval if you change.

My VW specified not only synthetic, but synthetic that has been tested by VW and passed. They've got a long list, but it's tough to find approved oil in WalMart (despite their huge selection of brand name synthetics). I was able to find at least two in the smaller selection at an auto parts store. The service interval is 10,000 miles.

With basic synthetic at 3x the cost of premium normal non-synthetic oil, I doubt it can pay for itself unless you can triple your service interval. I don't think you'll find measurable FE gains unless you go to a significantly lower viscosity.

Yes, synthetic is superior, but in my observation, it's an unnecessary level of superiority. I don't hear about many (any?) modern engines with failure/wear that could have been prevented by using different oil (assuming the maintenance schedule was followed). I suspect that most engines fail from other problems or are junked with the car long before oil-related wear is a problem.

[tjts1]

Synthetic motor oil is barely 50% more expensive than dino juice but I can double the oil change interval. 1 gallon of she'll rotella 5w40 is $16 and 5 quarts of supertech 5w30 (rebadged mobil1) is $14. Synthetic oil pays for itself on the longer interval alone.

[civic_matic_00]

I've been using synthetic oil (Castrol Syntec, will change to Amsoil soon as my next oil change is due) for the past 50K miles on my vehicles. the first 50K miles were on conventional oil. the difference is apparent, my cars run better on synthetic oil. I save money on it as well since I don't follow the 3K miles oil change interval anymore. I change my oil every 6 months, no more, no less. I am planning on switching to Amsoil so I would only have to chnage oil once a year. Also planning on changing my tranny oil to Royal Purple which I've been hearing good things about.

my cars also starts better in the winter time since I've started using synth oil, before that it was a b*tch during winter.

I am not a mechanic, nor an expert in the automotive field, but my experience with synth oil has been good.

[brucepick]

I'm a cheapskate and I like quality.
I ended up deciding to use WalMart's house brand of synthetic, SynTec (Super Tech??). It's about $14 per 5-qt. jug. I'm sure Mobile 1 is better but it costs approx. double what I pay for this stuff. Maybe it's Mobil 1 as tjts1 says. I used to change dino oil at 3-3.5 K mi. intervals, in my '89 Volvo. I run the synthetic about 6-7K miles now but I'm very approximate about that. I let the wifemobile go 10K miles just recently due to lousy winter weather and other interferences.

Winter startups have been fine with 10-30 synthetic. Our Nordic beasts have always started well in winter but if anything starting has been easier with synthetic.

My own decision was to stay within the various viscosities spec'd by the mfg. In my climate I can use 10-30 or 15-40 so I use 10-30 based on the principle that thinner is better for FE. When our 3rd car was a 'leaker' I used the thicker stuff to reduce the leakage but that was Dino oil.

BTW there's some 'wisdom' out there saying not to use synthetic on an old engine that's been run on dino oil, that the seals will leak and you'll be sorry. Also that loads of old gunk will be freed up to circulate in the oil. I didn't have problems with either of the 2 very old Volvos I switched to synthetic. However we're committed to the cars and on one of them I had rear seals replaced before I went to synthetic because it was leaking pretty badly.

In my car before switching to synthetic I ran some GUNK crankcase cleaner, but only for about 1/2 the time spec'd on the can. Then swapped in fresh dino oil to 'rinse' it for a spin around the block, then put in synthetic and a clean filter.

Then I changed out the filter after running 1000 miles on synthetic. If I recall I left the oil alone, just changed the filter in case it got loaded up with old junk that was released by the synthetic lube. Cheap insurance, I figure.

[bkrell]

Originally Posted by tjts1

Synthetic motor oil is barely 50% more expensive than dino juice but I can double the oil change interval. 1 gallon of she'll rotella 5w40 is $16 and 5 quarts of supertech 5w30 (rebadged mobil1) is $14. Synthetic oil pays for itself on the longer interval alone.

Wal-Mart Supertech synth is NOT rebadged Mobil1. It's made by Warren Distributors (not the same Warren as Warren Unilube which makes Coastal)

What you may be confused on is the fact that ExxonMobil supplies dino in some regions that are rebadged as Supertech Dino.

Rotella T Synth 5W40 is great oil but if your car specs a 30 weight and your an hypermiler you're going to add a tiny bit more drag by going up to a 40 weight. Maybe insignificant, but.....


Synths will, for the most part, leave an engine cleaner after a while than dino will. But for the most part, today's dinos are fine at the factory spec'd intervals. Now, if your car specs a certain type of synth, by all means use it.

[bkrell]

brucpick, folks who've actually had big problems switching from dino to synth at high miles are few and far between.

[DracoFelis]

Originally Posted by needmorempg

I'm new to the website and did some searches in the archives but could not get a clear verdict on synthetic oils.

Most agree that quality synthetics are better. The question becomes, "better enough to justify the price?". And that's where you will hear differences of opinion.

Originally Posted by needmorempg

I've seen advertisments and have heard that synthetics can increase hp & mpg. I know it's more expensive. Do syn users still change their oil at the same intervals?

Depends upon the syn user. Personally, I go with very high quality synthetic (Amsoil, if people were wondering), along with very high quality filters. Than I do NOT change my oil as often, as both the oil I'm using and the filters are rated for very long oil changes.

As a result, I actually save on oil changes, as the extra costs of the filters and oil is LESS than I save by not changing them as often! And that doesn't even count the increased fuel economy I get with a quality synthetic.

Originally Posted by needmorempg

Does it keep a motor clean after many miles of use?

It's been my experience that a quality synthetic oil, combined with a very high quality oil filter (cheap/standard oil filters don't do a good enough job of keeping dirt out of the oil) can do an amazing job of keeping an engine clean.

However, you have to buy upon specs and independent tests, as costs (by themselves) are not a good indicator of how good the oil (or filters) are. And surprisingly (sadly) a number of big "name brands" often take shortcuts that make their synthetic oil (and their oil filter) offerings less spectacular than you would expect from the brand name...

Originally Posted by needmorempg

In the end does it cost more than it saves?

Done right, it saves more than it costs. Because while the oil changes will each be more costly, you can change it out less often (as long as you monitor things, and don't do silly things like let the oil level drop too low). And so just the savings on fewer oil changes can pay for a good synthetic, never mind how it makes the car run better.

Originally Posted by needmorempg

Better or worse in harsh winter temps?

Usually better. In fact, some synthetics are dramatically better in cold weather than conventional oils are! And that's even more likely to be true, if you replace your 10w30 with a quality 0w30 (a safe replacement, as both oils are 30 weight once they warm up to temperature).

NOTE: The number before the "w" is the COLD flow rate, and the number after the "w" is the HOT flow rate. Generally speaking, you can safely have the COLD rate (the first number) be LOWER than car spec, without much danger. And the lower the first number (which is why I like 0Wx synthetics), the better the performance in bitterly cold temps! The important thing is to have the 2nd number be big enough (if you want to be safe, go no lower than the owners manual specs on the 2nd number), that the oil isn't "too thin" after your engine warms up.

What this means in practice, is that you can easily/safely replace a 5w30 or a 10w30 with a good 0w30. OTOH you might run into problems if you try replacing a 5w30 with a 0w20 (because the 0w20 is only a 20 weight oil once it warms up).

Some things to watch for, however:

There are some dangers when first switching from a conventional oil to a synthetic. Specifically, a synthetic usually flows freer than a conventional oil does, so any tendency for an engine to leak oil will initially be worse then with a conventional oil. Also, conventional oils often leave deposits/sludge behind over time, and most quality synthetics are good at cleaning this stuff up. This is overall a good thing, but there is a risk when first converting from dino oil to a synthetic, that you can actually break loose some of those deposits, and cause problems (due to the flowing deposits causing blockages in the oil flow). Over time both of these problems lesson, and then the true benefits of the synthetic set in. But you do have to pay some attention to what you are doing during the "conversion" (from dino oil to synthetic). Here's some advice for handling the conversion:

1) Consider an oil/engine cleaning product, before converting to synthetic. By first cleaning out some of the crud from the engine, the conversion to synthetic (synthetics work better in clean engines) is much safer. Amsoil makes an oil/engine flush for this purpose, as do most other companies. However, the product I'm currently using for this in our family cars is auto-RX, sold here: http://www.auto-rx.com/

BTW: I do NOT have any financial connection to the ARX company (except as a customer of theirs). In fact, I've got a financial disincentive to use this product, because I'm an Amsoil dealer (and therefore get dealer pricing on Amsoil's cleaning product). I just like the Auto-RX product better, because it does a good job of cleaning SLOWLY without the harshness/wear/damage caused by many of the cleaning products (including Amsoil's). i.e. ARX takes a little longer to work (follow the instructions on their site), but it eventually does a good job of cleaning, without the damage and harshness of many other engine cleaning products.

2) Consider using a really good oil filter. At the moment, I am currently using EaO oil filters from Amsoil. They are expensive, but their filtering ability seems to be just about top in the field (and that's not just Amsoil hype, people over on the "Bob Is the Oil Guy" forums have independently tested these things and found them to be top performing filters). While these filters are expensive (they can retail for $15 or more, depending upon make of car), their synthetic filter media does an amazing job of filtering without adversely hurting flow rate, and even can trap much more junk (then conventional paper filters) before filling up. So they last a LOT longer (I'm running my EaO filters between 10,000 and 20,000 miles each, and that's actually BELOW their longevity rating)! So like better oil, better filters pay for themselves in how long they last.

NOTE: I am an Amsoil dealer, so I'm not entirely unbiased here. However, I'm also a gassavers member, so I'll only recommend products I think really are worth it. And at the same time, I would be happy to help a fellow gassavers member with some Amsoil discounts (just send me a PM, if interested). In the case of Amsoil's (EaO) filters, I consider them "worth it" because they filter so much better (under 10 micron filtration, whereas many filters only do 30 microns, and some cheap ones not even that), and last so much longer (the synthetic filter media can hold a LOT more junk before filling up), that you make up for it both in better filtration (helps FE, and also helps you oil last longer), and a longer filter change interval (which means you have to replace the filter less often, and therefore you have to buy fewer filters).

3) Make your first oil change or two with synthetic shorter than it will eventually be (i.e. initially not much longer than the conventional oil change). This will give the synthetic time to clean up some of the existing mess (which may be lessoned, if you did an oil/engine clean step before this), and help the seals in the car get used to the synthetic oil. After the car is working well on synthetic (and you have good filtration), you can easily extend the oil change interval.

4) If the car starts leaking more oil (after switching to a synthetic), don't panic. As already mentioned, synthetic oil tends to flow easier, so it will often initially leak worse than conventional oil. But the good news is that a good synthetic often helps the seals to seal better. So often oil leaks get better over a few hundred to a few thousand miles of driving (on synthetic). Of course, if you are unlucky enough to not have the leaks subside on their own, it probably means your seals were already bad, and the gunk in the oil was "plugging the leak" as it were. In that case, you may have to have a mechanic replace the engine seals with new (undamaged) ones.

5) Remember, not all synthetics are made the same. While most synthetics are better than most conventional oils, there is still a HUGE difference in synthetic formulas. So it pays to hit the forums, and hear which synthetics are merely good, and which ones are excellent (and frequently there won't be a huge price difference between the two)!

6) And finally, remember that almost all cars leak at least some oil (some more than others). In general, this isn't much of a deal if you get an oil change every 3000 miles or so, as most cars won't leak enough during 3000 miles to be dangerously low on oil. So many people have gotten used to not checking their oil level (dip stick). But if you go long intervals (such as the 10000+ miles I put on my synthetic oil), you really do have to check your dip stick from time to time (and add "make up oil", as needed). Because you really do NOT want to let you oil level get too low, and therefore ruin your engine!!!

Originally Posted by needmorempg

What are the most proven brands? Would be used in a civic. Thanks

If you really want to know a lot about oil (both synthetic and conventional), check out the "Bob Is the Oil Guy" forums: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ Those forums do for oil analysis, what gassavers.org does for fuel economy. So they are an excellent place to learn a LOT about oil.

However, FWIW my personal opinion is that Amsoil makes some of the best synthetic oils out there. I personally use (in both my CRX, and my wife's Civic) a mix of Amsoil 0w30 ( http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/sso.aspx ) and 0w20 ( http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/asm.aspx ) oils. OTOH if you want to be conservative, you could just go with all 0w30 (I like mixing the 0w20 and the 0w30 to give me a slightly cheaper, and slightly lighter and more fuel efficient oil mix).

NOTE: If interested in these products, check with me before buying from the above links. As already mentioned, I signed up for an Amsoil dealership. Which means that I not only get dealer pricing on the oil I buy, I can offer discounts (i.e. prices below those listed prices) to gassavers members. However, Amsoil rules are very strict against one dealer selling to another dealer's customer. So once you buy from another Amsoil dealer (and yes, the web site does count as a "dealer" for this purpose), I'm not allowed to sell you Amsoil products (or offer you discounts) even on future sales. So while I'd love to offer all gassavers members discounts, the Amsoil dealer rules prevent me from doing so if/when you are already "a customer of a different Amsoil dealer"...

[bkrell]

Lol, the bitog invasion begins. Maybe all the bitogers should put it in their user info

[R.I.D.E.]

I have seen many engines with over 300k miles that were immaculate inside as long as oil change intervals were kept around 4k miles. I have seen over 300 k on one 300ZX that was almost all highway miles with 7k oil changes.

1981 Nissan 200SX with 540k miles on the motor immaculate inside. Not even a stain when we did a valve adjustment.

Thats using non synthetics. If the oil has been neglected, just change it at the regular intervals and you can gradually clean up the gunk to a point. When the neglect is severe removing the gunk can be dangerous.

If it ain't broke why change?

Oil quality has increased greatly over the past 40 years. I wonder how much longer the old engines would have lasted with the current oils.

regards
gary

[bkrell]

Oil can't clean and protect well at the same time and it's not spectacular at removing pre-existing deposits. For that something like Auto-RX would be much better suited. If you want to go the quick route for cleaning you'd have to use something like a kerosene soak followed by repeated short interval changes to get the residual gunk out. No doubt modern API SM ILSAC GF-4 oils have come a long way, and dinos in particular. But synth still holds an edge in deposits control and stability in most applications. Not as severe an edge as it once did, but if you want the best, dropping $20 for a 5 qt bottle of Mobil1 at Wal-Mart is an economical way to have just that.

[waddie]

Use Synthetic. Mobil 1 is NOT the best and Lucas SUCKS. Use Royal Purple, Amsoil, or Schaeffer's. You car will get 4% to 5% better economy when you change the whole powertrain and will wear much slower. It costs a little extra up front but believe me you'll be glad you switched everything over.

[bkrell]

waddie,

I was not trying to imply M1 was the best synth, just the best you could get easily and for $20 for a 5 qt jug.

[bkrell]

Royal Purple certainly isn't the best either, BTW.

[RoadWarrior]

I was running the Walmart supertech/tech2000 0W30 in my Escort, very impressed with how clean it ran, picked up a couple of mpg with it. It runs about 2/3 the price of "brand name" synthetics here and 2x the price of dino oils. Seems capable of being run on 10-15K changes, so you'd save on it.

[Mr Incredible]

The huge difference between conventional and synthetic has faded. Not so much because synthetics have lesser quality as much as conventionals have gotten better. Engines have gotten better, as well.

To get it out of the way quickly, most "synthetics" you get at Wal-Mart are highly processed conventional oils. Yes, they are better...but the price is too high for me. I change oil in five cars and conventional oils make $en$e to me.

It's hard to find a name brand conventional oil that won't go 5k miles today. Where true synthetics shine is when used by consumers that put a lot of miles on their cars/trucks quickly. A good true synthetic can go 8-10k miles without much trouble. Add the famous Amsoil or equivalent remote filters and that can extend out tremendously. That keeps the user out from under the car every other week doing oil changes.

Where true synthetics shine is their pumpability at very low temps and their ability to live at high temps that break down conventional oils quickly. Most of us don't see either of those extremes, and the low temp pumpability of conventionals is getting better.

The verdict is still out on an gas savings acquired from using a synthetic oil. In my F250SD V10 I did 10k miles each on Quaker State conventional 5w-30 and M1 5w-30 (when it really was a true synthetic). There wasn't a .2mpg difference between the two. Nowhere nearly enough to justify the increased costs. Others have voiced the same results, so it isn't just me. Some costly synthetics have shown themselves to increase horsepower and economy, but I won't pay those prices. True mpgs can be had by using high quality synthetic gear lubes, AT fluid, and MT lubes.

You might see mileage gains from using a thinner weight of a high quality synthetic oil. Some cars can handle it, others might not want to do so. Void where prohibited. I've used the thinnest 5w-30 in my '98 LS1 (Havoline Deposit Shield) and the thickest I could stomach (M1 Truck & SUV 5w-40) and both came back with very similar oil analysis results. I'm sure I got better mpgs from the DS, though I can't quantify it. Using the Tr&SUV 5w-40 made the LS1 feel like it was churning molasses until it got good and warmed up. The same thing with the F250SD V10. Ford said to go to 5w-20 in it. Did it, got reasonable oil analysis results. Mileage increased a bit, but with that thing it doesn't make much difference.

All that said, I'm going to settle on one brand of oil (unless others are on sale) and Pennzoil is the one. Good enough for daily use in all the cars I service, cheap enough where it won't break the bank, and I won't have to worry about all the stuff people agonize over endlessly. My '89 CRX will love it, I'm sure.

[bkrell]

If you run Supertech synth 10-15k you BETTER get oil analysis!

[waddie]

I ran Schaeffer's 10-30 18,000 miles on a 1996 tacoma 4 cylinder, with oil analysis, and it performed beautifully. Synthetics are great because they keep viscosity longer and handle heat better but also look for a friction modifier that won't build up in the engine. Schaeffer's is by far the best I've found.

[bkrell]

Oh I've heard of plenty of folk running Schaffer's long drain. But Supertech Synth???? Only if Schaffer's or AMSOIL become a supplier.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by bkrell

Oh I've heard of plenty of folk running Schaffer's long drain. But Supertech Synth???? Only if Schaffer's or AMSOIL become a supplier.

Could be. I've heard that WalMart sources their Supertech by the cheapest bidder for each batch, so it's possible (though unlikely)...

[bkrell]

Wal-Mart has three main suppliers for Supertech: SOPUS (Shell), ExxonMobil, and WPP (Warren Performance Packaging, part of Warren Distribution).

[Greybrick]

For Canadian cold weather conditions I've been using ester based Motul 8100 E-Tech Lite 0w30 which has a low temperature pour point of about -75F which means at about the coldest -40F temps we see around here the oil is still a low viscosity liquid and still doing it's work at startup. I've had occasion to start the engine at about -30F without being able to plug in the block heater and the engine with 0w30 turns over and starts very quickly so I think there is less internal engine friction and starter wear than if using thicker oils. The Motul oil also stays a lot cleaner on the dipstick throughout the 12K kms use cycle than other oils I've tried, so I guess that the engine is benefiting from less internal carbon, varnish and sludge buildup, but I'll be pulling a valve cover soon to check that.

http://www.motul-canada.com/

Motul is a French product but there are various US companies coming on stream which don't use petroleum mineral 'dino' oil or natural gas sythesized PAO base stocks;

http://www.getg.com/products/product...=1&ProductID=1

http://www.ultracheminc.com/cat_MotorOils.htm

.

[JanGeo]

Synlube 5w50 non-petrolium lubricant typically 8% FE gain and 150,000 mile change interval with 3 special filter changes during that 150,000 miles. Check it once a month for oil level and add if needed with Ad-Oil. Currently 17,100 miles on Synlube and it seems to be working just fine. And when you actually change the Synlube you send it back to them to get it recycled so it is a very Green Lubricant.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by JanGeo

Synlube 5w50 non-petrolium lubricant typically 8% FE gain and 150,000 mile change interval with 3 special filter changes during that 150,000 miles.

Do they give you a plate to screw to your oil fill cap saying "Please consult owner before servicing oil" in case your mechanic gets at it?

[JanGeo]

They give you big laminated stickers that say to not add conventional motor oil - as well as stickers for the transmission lube and power steering lube and a drain plug sticker too that I did not put on the oil pan. Yeah my biggest nightmare is taking it in for some non-related service and has some nut drain the oil out or worse add something to it.

[needmorempg]

Wow! What a wealth of information. I never expected to learn so much from one thread. Thanks guys. I think I'll be making the switch.

[R.I.D.E.]

I read somewhere a while back that Ford changed the pressure relief valves on their engines to limit pressure to 35 psi, the claim was .5 mpg improvement in mileage without hurting engine.

Could also have been related to 5w-30 oils and the concept of better flow with lower viscosity.

Make sense?

regards
badger

[Mark]

Oil is intended to both lube and cleanse. Synthetics may hold up for 10,000 miles, but essentually dirty and/or contaminated oil is being run in a motor for that much longer of a time. Is it logical to believe that everything that has gone into an engine in 10,000 miles is/was contaminiate free?

[nlife]

Check out http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ for actual test results from users just like me and you. They aren't affiliated with any one brand and the independent tests speak volumes (at least to me) about the validity of synthetics over conventional.

Yes conventional oils have increased dramatically, but there are better options available. You're not going to destroy your engine either way IF you at least use the recommended weight.

As for situations where regular oil is better, look no further than engines that burn oil. I made that mistake once and will not do it again. Synthetics do not burn very well. While dino oil doesn't burn very well either, it burns a heck of a lot better than synthetic. Synthetic tends to coat the plugs and cause poor running conditions as well as misfires although at that point, you've got larger problems on your hands than which oil to use.

N

[DracoFelis]

Originally Posted by Mark

Oil is intended to both lube and cleanse. Synthetics may hold up for 10,000 miles, but essentually dirty and/or contaminated oil is being run in a motor for that much longer of a time. Is it logical to believe that everything that has gone into an engine in 10,000 miles is/was contaminiate free?

That mostly depends upon the quality of your oil filtration.

As long as the oil itself can hold up that long (and good quality synthetics can), than the real limitation is the quality of your FILTERS. There is a HUGE difference between say a conventional filter that maybe filters down to 35 microns or so, and something like the Amsoil EAO filters (that can filter down to 10 microns or less, and have much more capacity to hold junk before they fill up).

And for even better filtration (than you can get even with the EAO filters), you can go with "Bypass Filters" (a separately plumbed in micro-filter added to the car). A good "Bypass Filter" can easily filter down to 2 microns or less, getting virtually all of the harmful dirt out of the oil (any soot small enough to be missed by a good bypass filter, is too small to cause much harm anyway).

So with a good bypass system, dirt in the oil is essentially not a problem, no matter how long you run your oil (as long as you change your bypass filters when they fill up with dirt). And with the dirt in the oil problem solved, you then are limited by the much longer mileage interval until the oil itself breaks down. And even with mid-range synthetics, that can easily be over 10,000 miles (and with premium synthetics, it can be 20,000 miles or more).

BTW:
I use both the premium Amsoil EAO filters, and a seperate bypass filter system in mine and my wife's cars. So for both our cars, the oil filtration is top notch (essentially making "dirt in the oil" a non-problem for me). And I also use top rated synthetic lubricants that take a very long time to break down. As a result, I've already got 10,000+ miles on my current oil change, and I still haven't decided when I'm next going to change the oil (likely before next winter, but I may decide not to do it before then), as the oil still seems to be in very good shape. Instead, I simply add a little "make up oil" every couple of thousand miles or so, just to keep the oil sump (dip stick) topped off...