Toyota yaris - bugging the crap out of me.

[pcgeek1510]

How can the EPA post mileage estimates for the toyota yaris without specifying if its the liftback or the sedan. Just because they have the same drivetrain, does not mean they have the same fuel economy. The liftback is probably much more aerodynamic, why wouldnt it have a different EPA rating?

[BIBI]

The difference is probably marginal.

[theholycow]

The listings on fueleconomy.gov are not well specified and not complete. If you want to be sure just check the specs for each car on their window stickers or on toyota.com.

Also, wouldn't a sedan be more aerodynamic, letting the air down gently instead of dragging a big vacuum behind it?

[101mpg]

No, it's called a Kammback. Honda CRX, etc.

[hybriDatsun350]

The sedan is most likely the more aerodynamic of the two, but I'm sure they are so close in FE that there is no need to report numbers on both models.

[pcgeek1510]

but the sedan would probably weigh at least an extra 100 lbs with the doors, etc.. Im sure the difference could be 1-2mpg. Also the liftback has a shorter wheelbase. :/.

[theholycow]

I checked toyota.com. The sedan is slightly lighter than the liftback (makes sense because it doesn't have as much sheet metal and glass).

Surprisingly, you're right that the liftback has a shorter wheelbase. Why would they do that? Wouldn't it be far cheaper and easier to make them the same?

What's with the Yaris, in fact? The sedan has a little more passenger volume, 30% more cargo space, is lighter, is less tall, less wide, but significantly longer than the liftback.

Toyota's site lists exactly the same EPA ratings for sedan and liftback. Edmunds.com lists the same drag coefficient for both, surprising considering the differences in shape, width, height, and length.

I would say the sedan is the better choice for hypermilers and people looking for the maximum practicality. The liftback only wins if you need to park in ridiculously short spaces, carry bulky items, or look "cool" among your hypermiler friends.

http://www.toyota.com/yaris/specs.html
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=108501

[Jonathan_ED3]

Originally Posted by theholycow

I checked toyota.com. The sedan is slightly lighter than the liftback (makes sense because it doesn't have as much sheet metal and glass).

Surprisingly, you're right that the liftback has a shorter wheelbase. Why would they do that? Wouldn't it be far cheaper and easier to make them the same?

What's with the Yaris, in fact? The sedan has a little more passenger volume, 30% more cargo space, is lighter, is less tall, less wide, but significantly longer than the liftback.

Toyota's site lists exactly the same EPA ratings for sedan and liftback. Edmunds.com lists the same drag coefficient for both, surprising considering the differences in shape, width, height, and length.

I would say the sedan is the better choice for hypermilers and people looking for the maximum practicality. The liftback only wins if you need to park in ridiculously short spaces, carry bulky items, or look "cool" among your hypermiler friends.

I agree 100%.

As a side-note, we have been pleased with the mileage of the Yaris (sedan) so far.

[lowbridescape]

Aren't EPA ratings measured on a dynomometer? There would be no aero effects. They would just add a Cd and calculate drag to derive mileage.

[goofy1]

just one quick comment on this. my brother as a yaris hatchback with automatic tran and a friend of mine as the sedan with a manual tranny. i talked to them about the two styles and mpg. my brother has a lead heavy foot and he's getting 40+mpg in the hatch and my friend is just getting 36mpg. i'm not 100% sure on my friend driving style but i think he's a smooth driver, not lead footed. so i'm not sure whats up, but in this case the sedan is getting worse then the two door. i've personal sat in both cars and the two has tons more head, leg,etc room then the sedan no surprise there. but what surprised me was that me a 6'4 guy need to put the seat UP!! to get comfortiable in it. 99.99999% of the time its seat all the way back,seat lowered and the wheel all the up. but not in the 2 door yaris. hats off to toyota on that. can't wait to see what the toyota iQ will be like and car smaller then the two door yaris.

[theholycow]

Toyota's website shows more head, leg, etc room for the sedan, but perhaps they've mangled the numbers for marketing purposes.

Your friend with lower MPG in the 5 speed sedan is doing something different from your friend with the automatic liftback. The manual should beat the automatic if conditions and driving style were similar.

[R.I.D.E.]

The two door didn't fit me well. Neither did the Prius. Couldn't get the seat to go far enough back for my legs. The 4 door Yaris was better, got to drive one when my Corolla was in for alignment problems.

I think the only car I have had to move the seat foreward on, that I can remember, was the Del Sol.

regards
gary

[civic lover]

Originally Posted by theholycow

I checked toyota.com. The sedan is slightly lighter than the liftback (makes sense because it doesn't have as much sheet metal and glass).

Surprisingly, you're right that the liftback has a shorter wheelbase. Why would they do that? Wouldn't it be far cheaper and easier to make them the same?

What's with the Yaris, in fact? The sedan has a little more passenger volume, 30% more cargo space, is lighter, is less tall, less wide, but significantly longer than the liftback.

Toyota's site lists exactly the same EPA ratings for sedan and liftback. Edmunds.com lists the same drag coefficient for both, surprising considering the differences in shape, width, height, and length.

I would say the sedan is the better choice for hypermilers and people looking for the maximum practicality. The liftback only wins if you need to park in ridiculously short spaces, carry bulky items, or look "cool" among your hypermiler friends.

http://www.toyota.com/yaris/specs.html
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=108501

where do you find the drag coefficient numbers at edmunds?

[RningOnFumes]

Either your friend with the sedan mt is driving in the city a lot or he's doing something wrong.

My first week of having the car, I made 45 mpgs. This is with no hypermiling skills. I have a sedan 5spd. It wasn't until later that I found out about hypermiling through a Brian, a member of Yarisworld and Cleanmpg. He has a hatch back and I'm trying my best to chase after his numbers. Many of the top mpg drivers of Yarisworld are chasing after his 50- 55 mpg records.

[goofy1]

all i know is from my experience with the interior place. i need the leg room for my long legs and head room for my big head. and they fit all to well and with space to spare in the two door my Brother has then the sedan my friend has. oh btw, they both drive highway and both have 45min to a hour drive to work. I talked with my friend again and i screwed up on the tranny. Forgive me all. But his sedan is a automatic tranny, for some reason i thought it was a stick. Sorry
it wouldn't be my first time screwing up info here. (bad hard drive in the head) but toyota has posted incorrect measurements on their cars before. but hey nobody is perfect

btw the 2 door yaris has more head room then the sedan
38.8/36.7 compared to 39.4/37.9 in the 2 door yaris

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by civic lover

where do you find the drag coefficient numbers at edmunds?

In the link I posted before:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=108501
it says this:

With a coefficient of drag of just 0.29, both the sedan and Liftback slip through the air with ease, promising a quieter ride and greater fuel economy at freeway speeds.

It's the fifth paragraph, just above the bolded heading "Fraternal, not identical twins".

Originally Posted by goofy1

btw the 2 door yaris has more head room then the sedan
38.8/36.7 compared to 39.4/37.9 in the 2 door yaris

Yeah, I just realized, the extra height that I thought would be worse for drag would have to be better for headroom.

[dkjones96]

EPA testing is done on a dynamometer. They capture exhaust emissions and 'weigh' the CO2 to calculate fuel usage.

About it being cheaper and easier to make them have the same wheel base. It doesn't matter because it's FWD and two different chassis. If they were RWD then having two sized cars means more drive shafts and more cost. Since everything is up front on this car it's easy to make the different chassis work with the same engine. Like the Rav4 v6 and the Avalon v6.

[JanGeo]

Tell you one thing about the sedan - I drove my friends and when I turned around to look out the rear window I banged the back of my head on the handle above the door . . . it's a little tight in there compared to my xB.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by dkjones96

EPA testing is done on a dynamometer. They capture exhaust emissions and 'weigh' the CO2 to calculate fuel usage.

I have to believe they find a way to calculate in aerodynamic drag, or else there would be no reason to design cars with better drag.

Oddly, fueleconomy.gov doesn't say anything about it, but I did find something.
http://www.imakenews.com/alanbyervol....cfm?x=b11,0,w

Driving at higher speeds increases aerodynamic drag (wind resistance), reducing fuel economy. The new EPA tests account for aerodynamic drag up to highway speeds of 80 mph, but some drivers exceed this speed.

Since everything is up front on this car it's easy to make the different chassis work with the same engine.

I wasn't talking about how the engine fits, just that having more parts in common increases the economy of scale. It's cheaper to build two identical undercarriages than two different ones, and the same can be said of other body parts.

[dkjones96]

Originally Posted by theholycow

I wasn't talking about how the engine fits, just that having more parts in common increases the economy of scale. It's cheaper to build two identical undercarriages than two different ones, and the same can be said of other body parts.

If this were trucks(body on frame), like the Tacoma and 4Runner, then yes, it is cheaper to manufacture one frame and put a different body on each, but these cars are unitized body so if anything is different at all between the chassis(basically anything more than leaving out a couple of mounts or changing some fender and grill stuff) they have to make a new line for it.

The Civic Sedan and Coupe are the same way. The sedan is 106.3 and the coupe is 104.3. the same suspension can bolt to both(usually a little different because of weight) it's just that they are moved a bit.

Plus, the liftback design lends itself to structural integrity issues that the sedan doesn't have to deal with. Ford has a line for the Mustang coupe and the Mustang convertible chassis. Same car essentially but just removing the roof means the chassis needs redesigned so it doesn't twist to pieces when the car is floored.

In that example however, the wheelbases are exactly the same but I don't know if we can lend that totally to drive train manufacturing simplicity as the focus coupe and sedan share the same exact wheelbase. I think the focus might be just a simpler design approach though because the coupe isn't a lift/hatchback design they can just make the door bigger and move the b-pillar back to make a 2-door like honda without a lot of work.

[CKaelin]

I have the YARIS 5 speed lifit back. My Lifetime Fuel Economy: 43.13 MPG(US) I'm only on my 5th tank. I'm loving this car.

[YarisDude]

I have a Yaris HB and purchased for the good storage as well. No lip at the hatch making it easy to slide big heavy objects in and out.

I typically get around 45 MPG with the worst case logged in at 37 MPG in the winter.

The COD as stated earlier is about 0.29 (for both cars?) is probably based on prototype measurements. I am certain there is a real difference, especially if different size tires, rim diameters, and body options are taken into account thought out the model line. Just as a side note, two different design teams worked on the Yaris. One for the LB and another for the sedan - this is likely the reason for the differing platforms.

Best regards