Which new car?

[Greg8325]

This question is not entirely about gas mileage but about reliability as well. Would it be better to get a new Civic non hybrid or the older model civic hybrid (like an 05 or 04)? I can get both for about the same price. The older Civic Hybrid gets better MPG than the new Civc (non hybrid) but I wonder about reliability.

[atomicradish]

It depends. How long is the older Civic under warranty for and how many miles does it have on it?

[Greg8325]

One of the cars I found (2004 Civic Hybrid) had about 40000 on it. It is out of the basic warranty but the hybrid components are under warranty until 80000 or four more years. A newer Civic will be about a 2006/2007 with about 20000 miles on it. The newer car will be under all warranty items.

[dkjones96]

I'd get the newer one. It's hard to ruin an engine with mal-maintenance in 20k miles. One thing I've noticed about civics is girls own them a lot and as we all know, that means its maybe had the oil changed 2 times in 20,000 miles.

I got my car at 60k miles and bad maintenance led to some repairs even that early in life.

[Kohote]

I would stay away from all the hybrids for a while. Thats just me though.

[pagemap]

Originally Posted by Kohote

I would stay away from all the hybrids for a while. Thats just me though.

Why? All the arguments about them have been debunked, and now that gas is $4 the payback period is short. The battery reliability is excellent, its a non issue if that's your concern. It will last the life of the car, people are driving around with batteries well over 250K miles. Ask the hybrid taxi drivers in NYC.

[Kohote]

Originally Posted by pagemap

Why?

Gary did a great job explaining why. Currently they just don't make much financial sense. It is much cheaper in the long run to buy a used civic/corolla or whatever. The break even point vs. even new non hybrid civics/corollas is very far away. And by that time there will be way more FE options that make a lot more sense.

The question of the batteries is another huge concern. How much will it cost when they need to be replaced and also where do they go? Having more used up batteries in our landfills and such is not a good thing. What about all the extra mining and demand for nickel and lithium? There are many negative aspects of the hybrids that are usually conveniently forgetten or swept under the rug so to speak. They remind me alot of the ethanol craze.

Hybrids, the prius especially, are a very contradictory vehicle. I remember seeing a magazine article a little while back where they calculated the total environmental impact of a vehicle. It took into account everything from mining raw material to the disassembly and recycling of a vehicle. Turns out the prius was worse than a suburban. Everyone believes they are the ultimate "green vehicle" when in reality they hurt the environment more than a conventional car.

They do get great mileage and reduce our dependence on oil. But they don't make sense.

Hopefully like Gary said, in the near future we will have many more great FE options with fewer consequences than what we have now.

[thornburg]

Originally Posted by Kohote

Hybrids, the prius especially, are a very contradictory vehicle. I remember seeing a magazine article a little while back where they calculated the total environmental impact of a vehicle. It took into account everything from mining raw material to the disassembly and recycling of a vehicle. Turns out the prius was worse than a suburban. Everyone believes they are the ultimate "green vehicle" when in reality they hurt the environment more than a conventional car.

That article received a lot of criticism for some odd sets of numbers they were using, and I believe the compared vehicle was a Hummer, not a Suburban.

I'm not saying the Prius is as "green" as Toyota would like you to think, but that article was deliberately skewed.

EDIT: Apparently there were several articles like this, but most came from one source. Here is one place with some info about some of misleading info given out about the Prius:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/arti...oding-the-myth

[trollbait]

That article received a lot of criticism for some odd sets of numbers they were using, and I believe the compared vehicle was a Hummer, not a Suburban.

It was a Hummer, and the major odd number they used was the vehicles lifetime milage. It was 300k miles for the Hummer and just 100k for the Prius. Which will, of course, skew results.

The traction battery is good for the life of the car. Toyota considers 180k miles the car's life, but Prius are going beyond this with the original battery. Some of them in severe duty use as taxis.

Toyota offers a bounty on old or wrecked batteries to ensure they get recycled. 100% of the nickle is recovered in the process.
You'll get more from a scrap yard for the battery than the bounty at current nickle prices.

The Sudsbury mine is the largest nickle producer in the world. Any stainless steel items you have likely contain nickle from it. The environmental damage it caused happened before the Prius was concept. The mine has been open for over a hundred years. So some of that damage took place before Toyota even existed. It has since cleaned up.

Financially, buying used is better than new for any car. But dollars and cents is just a part of the reasons for buying a car. Which varies between buyers in importance. That said, CR recently listed the Prius as one of the cheapest cars to own.

[R.I.D.E.]

Current hybrids leave a lot to be desired, buy a decent low priced economy car and bank the difference. Hybrid resale values will drop dramatically when battery replacement and other maintenance issues become a factor.

In 5 years I believe you will see cars whose simplicity and efficiency can hardly be imagined today.

I bought my 94 VX in March with 27,492 miles on it for $3000 wrecked. A lot of people thought I was crazy. Now I am averaging almost 59 MPG, and my car should last me another 8 years.

If the auto manufacturers want to build something that is as good as or BETTER than what I have now they might get my money, and I can write a check for a new car.

I won't do that because I believe you will see the values of used cars in general drop almost as precipitously as the SUV's have dropped in the last few months. Fuel cost is approaching the point where it will be the largest expense of car ownership.

There is a Civic CX on Norfolk, Va. Craig's List for $2600 with just over 100k miles. No AC and needs a clutch.

I would be looking for something like that or a later HX model. Maybe a Corolla, but that would mean 20 MPG less than my VX. Compared to my Corolla the VX would save me enough in fuel cost to pay for the Corolla, in 200k miles.

I was reading about the Honda I-SDI engine (not available in the US) that gets better mileage than the VX under the same test scenario. Hopefully they will bring it to the US in the near future.

Patronizing the manufacturers with their abyssimal current fuel mileage offerings will only perpetuate the situation.

Imagine what fuel might cost in 2 years to 5 years.

Currently my per mile fuel cost is under 6.6 cents a mile, at twice the fuel cost thats 13.2 cents a mile. I know people who would be paying almost 80 cents a mile if gas prices double. That's $80,000 for gas to drive 100k miles.

regards
gary

[mini-e]

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.

I bought my 94 VX in March with 27,492 miles on it for $3000 wrecked. A lot of people thought I was crazy. Now I am averaging almost 59 MPG, and my car should last me another 8 years.

Currently my per mile fuel cost is under 6.6 cents a mile, at twice the fuel cost thats 13.2 cents a mile. I know people who would be paying almost 80 cents a mile if gas prices double. That's $80,000 for gas to drive 100k miles.

regards
gary

I think you made a good case but many people do not have the time, skills, or inclination to rebuild a crashed car. Also, god bless the vx, there are many nice people who want a car with A/C, a quiet ride, better egress. Not me, I just spent a stupid amount of time making a hx hatch- sort of a updated vx. But one size does not fit all, and some people might want to buy a more comfortable car. I think used low milage prius and civic hybrids are legitimate choices for some people.

[R.I.D.E.]

I talked with an older couple that had an Insight, they loved the mileage and didn't seem to mind the $5000 battery replacement cost.

I mind it, to the tune of 1200 gallons (70,000 miles) of fuel.

Buy the used car for the cost of the replacement battery, or find another option like I did and buy the car smashed and fix it, or cannibalize the parts for another one.

I would rather buy a used Civic with around 100K than any hybrid (same mileage) unless it was dirt cheap, because you will eventually have a big bill for components that don't exist on the Civic.

It's not that I am against hybrids, quite the opposite.

My concept basically may not even be legitimately called a hybrid, because all the driving power for the vehicle comes from a single reservoir, which recieves power from two different sources. Hybrids by definition recieve propulsive force from two sources.

They are also much more complicated when it comes to repairs.

The older the car the less options you would want, I will take crank up windows that never break to power windows that can cost your nuhdreds to fix. If it ain't there it can't break in the first place.

The best used cars right now are Civic HX models. the earleir VX and others like mine are getting harder to find every day.



regards
gary

[RoadWarrior]

I know more than few models where the rack strips out on the mechanical windows... which is also one of the more common problems on the electric ones. But at least you aren't carrying an extra 10lb of motors around with you.

[theholycow]

mini-e said it perfectly. I've never seen anyone other than me say "one size does not fit all", but it's a very important mantra.

[trautotuning]

To tell you the truth I think right now Honda's have gone up WAY much...

I just bought a 2007 Mazda6 with 4cyl engine and I must say its AWESOME! Only for $14,000 with 28k miles. So i got the price of a civic, the size of an accord, its REALLY nice inside, and it has really awesome gas milage for its size and especially its looks (look at it in person not it pictures there is a major difference)...

Look into one you wount be dissapointed and I think they are just as relible if not more than hondas- look at kias they are super reliable and guess what kind of engine they use... Mazdas!