Got into a bad discussion about FE

[Project84]

So on another car forum, a car club dedicated to muscle Camaro's and Firebirds, I put up in the general discussion a link someone here posted a while back regarding GM's plans to spend $500M on a 45mpg car called the Cruze. I basically just said, look what GM is doing... and asked, How does everyone feel about this? Think in terms of the Metro, Saturns, Cavaliers that have been proven w/ little and sometime NO modification, can exceed 45mpg, relate your input to the cars available in the 80's and 90's from GM that could achieve 45mpg.

Everyone knows I try to hypermile, and they think I'm one of "those crazy gas guys" because I'd rather drive my Saturn every day than my Camaro. So I guess I was asking for it, but EVERYONE took offense and basically flamed the hell out of me. Next thing I know they're all DEMANDING I TELL THEM what I've done to my Saturn to get good mileage.

In true stubbornness, I denied their requests and said, if you want to know how to get better MPG, do a google search for "mpg forum" and do as I did, read, learn, form your own opinions and experiments. Well, that didn't go over so well, basically they told me if I was going to have the attitude I did and tell everyone to "piss off" then I wasn't welcomed anymore. I've been an active member there, attending cruise-ins and races, since 2002. Just because I wouldn't give away all these "hypermiling secrets" they think I have, they all want me gone.

Don't you think it's lame of them to act that way? I mean, sure, one part of saving gas is helping other people save gas too, but I wasn't about to be put on trial and harassed into telling them what can easily be found with a google search. So just like most people, these people are the type to piss and moan, continue driving their 15mpg trucks and Camaro's and NOT try to learn how to improve mileage.

It just frustrates me that things happened the way they did... so am I the jerk, or are they?

[BEEF]

you have to think though, you were the odd one at that site. every so often we will get someone here that goes against the grain and talks about how WE impede traffic and how gas consumption isn't that important.

If I had to assume, they just wanted to know what you did to ridicule you more. I am also a member of dodgetruckworld.com (inactive member) I wouldn't go over there and tell them about this site. they are all about power, huge dyno numbers, and low qtr mile times. there are probably a few that care a little but most are as described.

I think that neither are really at fault. you were trying to tell them about something relatively new that they could possibly use and they wanted none of it because it goes against their reason for the forum.

at least you gave it a try. I wouldn't have even posted it on another forum. kudos to you for trying though.

[Jay2TheRescue]

They were jerks, but you could have left the Google part out, and said something like "If you want to know more, visit www.GasSavers.ORG like I did. They have all the information you need." Then if they read and have questions you can go ahead and spill the beans on exactly what mods are on your car, and what driving techniques you use. I met someone last night that drove a Jeep Wrangler and made a comment that my mileage must be really bad driving a full size 4wd truck. I told him everything I did, showed him my gaslog on my laptop, and that I was hitting the EPA highway rating driving in city traffic. I then showed him the mods done to the truck (most were stealth and had to be pointed out) , and he said "Gassavers.ORG, I'll check that out tomorrow." So if we see a new member from Maryland driving a white Jeep in the next few days make him feel welcome...

-Jay

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Jay2TheRescue

They were jerks, but you could have left the Google part out, and said something like "If you want to know more, visit www.GasSavers.ORG like I did. They have all the information you need."

If he did that, then folks on that forum would come here, see what modifications and driving techniques he's using, and then use that information as ammunition on their forum. Additionally, if they're as jerky as they sound, they'd probably invade this forum and start trolling.

I've seen it before and I'll see it again.

Project84, can you paste the text of your post there? I can't tell (from your post above) what you posted there. The way you phrase it above, it doesn't sound like you said anything that should have blown up like that, even on a Camaro forum.

[Project84]

No, but for about a year now I've been singled out and ridiculed for just about anything I post over there because I'm just not fitting their "member mold" like I used to... mostly because I don't come to the weekly group outtings, and I stopped being active on the forum and helping other members personally (helping w/ car problems, helping people move, promoting their sale items, etc.).

I could copy/paste but it went on for 40+ posts w/ my final post announcing my pull out of the forum, and telling them all basically what I thought about them... I wonder if I've been banned? Things got ugly.

Point here is, I was wanting to discuss GM being these people are GM nuts, and instead, they all took the post talking about a 45mpg car and used it to relate to my MPG and aimed the cross hairs at me being a gas miser and insisted I "tell them my MPG secrets" to help the community or just be gone.

So basically, I'm gone. I still feel a bit guilty though because of how things happened, although, I do not think I was in the wrong.

I more/less wanted to focus on the 45mpg number and discuss how it related to old models that are no longer in production.

Also, I have my gas savers signature display thing in use on that forum, so they all knew where to go looking for MPG posts and yet, still insisted I tell them "all the details of my car and how I'm getting good mileage."

LAME.

[Jay2TheRescue]

I haven't encountered any of that. Most people I talk to (if FE comes up in discussion) end up saying wow when they see my mileage figures and knowing that most of my driving is stop & go city. Most are even further impressed when they see how stock the truck looks. Everyone here knows I take special care in trying to maintain a stock appearance. Only one thinks I'm crazy - My brother in law that is the service manager in a Ford dealer. He especially thought the grille block was not a good idea.

Then again, I'm 18% over the EPA combined rating (EPA combined figures 55% city and 45% highway) and my actual driving is more like 80% - 90% city.

-Jay

[99metro]

I'm the only whacko in the parking lot at work also. I even have some yellow window writing on the car "HYPERMILER! 60+MPG". They all believe cruise control gets the best economy and you get what you get. I'm just commuting to/from work, no need to haul stuff or tout my man card and caca. All the something-teen mpg vehicles pretty much stay home except for the occasional mama-needs-go-to-town-for-something-important runs, or I take the truck to work if I am also stopping to get a load of hay on the way home.

They have asked how to do it, and they get that glazed over look like I need some REAL professional help! I got my thing, they got theirs.

[theholycow]

Project84, it sounds like that's a particularly jerky group when it comes to people who don't fit in. They want everybody to be exactly the same.

[dkjones96]

Careful, they find this forum then read this thread they'll link to it over there and call you a whiny bi**h.

[Project84]

I've been a whiney ***** for some time in their eyes, even more so, I have complained about being "singled out" and "preyed on" to the moderators and club president and they all pretty much gloat and disregard it.

I've been fed up w/ them for some time, and basically just sticking around giving them the benefit of the doubt, hoping they'd eventually tire of always nagging me, but it never happened, and it led to the most recent event, me leaving the forum/group.

I just feel like, even though I was trying to direct a thread in a certain way, to focus on a topic they all know I'm interested in, MPG... they used it against me and singled me out, demanded I tell them all what I've invested time/effort/money into learning about. That's just wrong. I related it to the same principle as competitive drag racing. You aren't going to show up at a race and ask all the competitors, hey man, I own this same car and I can't break the 12's, what's done to your engine?? You'd get laughed at and sure as hell wouldn't get a definitive answer. Believe me, it's happened to me. So I employed the same principle in my response that if they wanted to learn the "secrets" they'd have to do their own legwork, but it was all out here on the WWW for anyone to find.

Perhaps I'm the jerk? I'm still trying to figure out who was in the wrong.

[theholycow]

You're not a jerk. They are. However, you're not entirely without fault; you knew they don't like you, you knew they don't like what you do, and you knew they aren't open-minded about FE...but you still hung around there and talked about FE.

You want to know if you were a jerk, and while it doesn't sound like you were, here are some individual faults I can point out. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to be argumentative, just sharing what I've learned from many, many years on newsgroups, mailing lists, and forums. Hold on to your hat.

Here you should have gotten the clue:

Originally Posted by Project84

I have complained about being "singled out" and "preyed on" to the moderators and club president and they all pretty much gloat and disregard it.

At that point, it's obvious that you're not welcome there. In an attempt not to be jerks, the moderators/president did not ban you at that point, since you hadn't really done anything wrong; but you were really in the wrong place, among the wrong people at that time.

I've been fed up w/ them for some time, and basically just sticking around giving them the benefit of the doubt, hoping they'd eventually tire of always nagging me, but it never happened, and it led to the most recent event, me leaving the forum/group.

What were you getting out of staying there? What was there to gain? It doesn't exactly sound like the most efficient way to get technical data. There are surely dozens of large F-body forums, some of which would have a much more laid-back, non-exclusive, helpful culture.

I just feel like, even though I was trying to direct a thread in a certain way, to focus on a topic they all know I'm interested in, MPG...

Herding cats, eh? Why would you do that? You say that you are interested...but they aren't interested. A forum is a place for shared interests. Blogs are more appropriate for individual interests.

they used it against me and singled me out, demanded I tell them all what I've invested time/effort/money into learning about. That's just wrong.

WTF? That's what we do here. That's what most technical forums are about. We tell eachother what we've invested our time/effort/money into learning about, so that they can learn more easily. We sum it up, repackage it, and present it to the individual in a way that fits them...or at least we try to.

I related it to the same principle as competitive drag racing. You aren't going to show up at a race and ask all the competitors, hey man, I own this same car and I can't break the 12's, what's done to your engine?? You'd get laughed at and sure as hell wouldn't get a definitive answer.

But this isn't a competition, it isn't a drag race, and if you're going to brag about your FE on an automotive forum you should be ready to back it up -- not only should you share the information (because it deserves to be shared and everybody deserves easy access to it), but you have to back it up just so they believe you instead of thinking you're spouting bullschitt. Sure, ok, you don't care if they believe you -- but then why would you post it?

So if you posted it, you want to communicate it, and you want to be believed. With FE being such an alien topic for people in general, and automotive speed enthusiasts in specific, you have to back it up with simple but complete explanations (which is rather difficult -- we get such great FE because we spend a huge amount of effort/time learning and practicing, even with the support of others on this forum summing/repackaging/presenting the data).

Believe me, it's happened to me. So I employed the same principle in my response that if they wanted to learn the "secrets" they'd have to do their own legwork, but it was all out here on the WWW for anyone to find.

That part was jerky.

Perhaps I'm the jerk? I'm still trying to figure out who was in the wrong.

They are the jerks, but you pulled some jerky, some wrong, and some thick-headed moves. You should have disappeared quietly from that forum a long time ago, but it sounds like you were getting some fulfillment out of the conflicts (everyone needs a little conflict in their life, even if they don't want it). To stay for conflict value, if done intentionally (which it doesn't sound like you did), is to become a troll.

[GasUser]

Project84.......Ok, so I read through this whole thing......and now my head is spinning so I gotta tell you that you just ran across some stupid people. Remember that ignorance can be educated, but stupid is forever. There's nothing you can do with stupid, so let it go, and certainly do not go back there, and don't get an ulcer over it.

Dave

[Project84]

LOL thanks GasUser... that helps a lot! I'm 100% on the same page as you.

As for getting fulfillment out of the conflict over the past year... yeah, that's actually probably an accurate statement. I did however want things to change, but once the cycle started, they were relentless, as was I.

Not trying to debate here, but holycow, you make some good points, but some of your points I do not agree with. Like the one specific to telling that group to do a google search, well, that's how I found gassavers.org and it was ultimately only my OWN motivation that brought me here... if these people wanted to learn about improving FE, I'm not the type to do their homework for them so we can all have an A+ in Fuel Efficiency, and the fact I was bullied AND ridiculed at the same time by many, really put me off to even thinking of helping them find the "secrets" they were looking for.

Good thing I'm not in public relations... maybe it's the fact that I'm a jack of all trades maintenance man, and my day to day is fixing other people's messes because they were TOO STUPID to educate themselves on the equipment before using it; breaking it and then again, not caring enough to learn how to fix it themselves.... so my job goes hand in hand w/ the people of that forum, useless individuals who don't care enough to learn, but want someone else to fix it for them.

I'm done venting.... sorry.

[JoeBob]

What it all comes down to is this: be tolerant of others. Everybody has their own agenda. Everybody has things which excite them. You, Project84, love fuel economy. Here you are among people who share the same interest as yourself. On a Camaro/Firebird newsgroup, I would expect people to be more interested in 1/4 mile times and the like. That's OK. There's room in the world for both viewpoints. If you go to that newsgroup, enjoy it for what it is. Apparently that is why you originally went there. If it is no longer of interest to you, quietly and politely take your leave. No sense stirring up unnecessary hate and discontent. As TheHolyCow said, it is like herding cats. As someone who has tried, figuratively AND LITERALLY to herd cats, it is a tough job. And not very satisfying.

Some people are not interested in saving gas. No law says they have to be. I didn't have children. Personally, I believe that having children in a world which is approching 7 BILLION population is the height of irresponsibility. But that is just me. Others disagree, I'm fine with that, and I'll happily keep their children entertained. But I feel better knowing I have not contributed to the problem.

Let people know you are interested in saving gas. Don't force it down their throats. If they are interested, and you comport yourself in a gentlemanly manner, they will come to you when they are ready.

My time is done, and I thank you for yours.

[Snax]

Project84, so you don't actually have a mullett and they found out about it. Move on.

[DRW]

I've also felt the urge to flout my FE prowess on the other high performance car forum that I visit. I'm not so bold that I'd become confrontational about it. Instead, I wrote a tech article that covers the basics for saving gas while also adding a few advanced driving techniques for those who were interested. I also included a link to this website and a link to my gaslog. I wrote it 19 months ago, just as gas prices were beginning to soar. Today my tech article has over 3,500 views, so somebody is reading it. But they're not commenting on it, and the forums don't have many threads discussing FE. The tech article is there to help those who are interested, and they don't need to 'come out of the closet' and ask about it in front of their power hungry friends.
Here's a link to my tech article http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/sear...archid=5389655
I hope I've set a good example.

It's the few loudmouths who spoil the party. I have to wonder how many people reading your thread on the F'body forum are truely interested in FE and what you've learned, but didn't post because they were afraid of being shouted down by the others? Checking the number of views your thread recieved might be an indicator.

It's only human to push back when someone pushes you. Don't place your soapbox in front of a pusher.

[Project84]

It seems a lot of you have missed my point to the original post on that forum... as stated, it wasn't about MY FE, or hypermiling, it was merely asking others opinions on GM and spending $500M when they're on the virge of bankruptcy, on a 45mpg car... although they had similar offerings as far back as 20 years and they crushed those designs. I noted the Fiesta that Ford is bringing back and asked what they thought about GM not having any cars that their combined mileage is over 30mpg.

It was THEM that twisted my wrist and moved the discussion directly to the focus of my FE, my knowledge, and my "secrets" that I was withholding. In fact, one person expressed interest and that's the person I told to google "MPG forum" and after he watched all the others rip the thread apart, he never posted again, even after I addressed him. Only one other person replied in the manner I was expecting - addressing the statements I had made about GM and giving some kind of excuses as to why GM has little to no offering for a high mpg car, stating "the general public doesn't want a futuristic bubble car" as if to be aero friendly it has to be a bubble? Shows the mentality.

The thread had over 300 views but only about 22 replies, not counting all of my replies.

The only mention I made of hypermiling was to state that older cars from GM are "capable of exceeding 45mpg as has been proven by many hypermilers w/ little/no mods in some cases," I guess they took that as me spreading my gospel, and decided to attack in fear of brainwashing the other gear heads.

[BEEF]

WHAT!!!!!!!

a camaro and no mullet? that is like peanut butter and jelly man. you can't have one without the other. lol

honestly, I am a dodge guy myself and I have been looking at their fuel efficient line up (which is a joke). it confuses me that a huge company like dodge or chevy for that matter hasn't put more stock in making more fuel efficient cars for the states. I am sure they have cars with better FE that they offer to the european market. you would think that they would have at least one small car that gets 30+ combined. chevy does have the cobalt XFE which is better than I can say for dodge

[Mr Incredible]

I, too, thought I would wake up the day after I purchased my first Camaro with a full-blown mullet. Fortunately, I no longer have enough hair for that to happen. I have dodged that mullet (pun intended).

I have a 98 LS1 and frequent a large Camaro forum. A poll placed most owners in the high teens and low twenties in age. They have a constant need to stroke their manliness and constantly talk about horsepower and speed. Any time somebody pipes up with ways to save gas or gas money they are browbeaten with, "If you can't afford your Camaro, sell it and buy a Honda or Toyota.

The thread pops up sometimes about somebody wanting to know if it's ok to run their car on Regular gas. They are immediately set upon and ridiculed for not wanting absolutely as much horsepower as they can possibly get at all times "just in case they need to wax an uppity Mustang at a stoplight."

They'll grow out of it in time, and family needs.

They're snotty and full of themselves, and you can't change that. But you can lead them to knowledge. Some of them will walk away with a seed of need to understand, others won't . Be a beacon of light, Project 84, in a sea of youthful male know-it-all darkness.

Some will understand...

[Project84]

BEEF, Your idea is the same I had... basically just wanting to address some GM freaks and ask about how they felt about the lineup compared to 10-20 years ago pertaining to MPG.

Mr Incredible - oddly enough, members of the forum I'm complaining about would probably average in age around 32-35. Seriously though, it's odd over there, almost like people who have something because they think its cool, but none of them use the car for the intended purpose, although they all talk, and walk, the lifestyle of a drag racer. It's frustrating in itself. I may not be on the same page as you though. I think a fast car can be a daily driver, but in the end, it was built to be fast for a reason, and if you aren't going to let it stretch its legs occasionally, why own it? I'm not all about the power/speed factor, I just think most cars are purpose-built, so its reasonable to fulfill the purpose from time to time.

Anyway.... I have a '94 Z28 now, link here ---> 1994 Camaro Z28 Hey I just realized you can see my Saturn in the first pic on that page... haha

I'm a Dodge guy too, you can see my old Dodge Ram in my cardomain user profile, but I had to sell it to cover some bills... you can use my username on cardomain to look at my other cars.

Funny thing about the mullet is, I gave myself one for nearly a year just for the comedy of it, while I drove my yellow '84 Camaro. I made certain to blast the Journey and Foreigner as often as possible, wore flannel jackets, lived the whole 80's life that I missed due to being born in '85. lol

I'm some sort of nutcase I guess.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Project84: The 80's were great! I graduated high school in 1989 so I lived through all that, even the mullet! Here's a good pic of my mullet... Circa very early 90's.

-Jay

[BEEF]

Mr. incredible,

it is very ironic that you said early twenties but they will grow out of it. I had a dodge truck that would do 0-60 in less than 6 seconds and it isn't a hemi either. I had it for about 4 and a half years, I sold it about 2-3 months ago because we are getting ready for our first child. I also just turned 29.

there is a lot of truth in what you have said. I guess I can be an example too. I did have the cavalier at the same time. I have always driven a good distance to work. I just grew up that way, you live in the sticks and commute to work.

I never had a mullet and now I don't have the hair to have a mullet. when I was on the dodge truck forum, nobody ever talked about gas though. it was still about $2.50 a gallon or so. I put a lot of money into that truck and when I sold it, I got none of that money back. I guess hind sight is always 20-20.

[Mr Incredible]

Beef, thank you for your insight.

The more points of view one has held, the more points of view one is able to understand and/or accept as valid. By and large, that comes with time. Seeing one, doing a class paper on one, or discussing one is wholey different from living it.

Then, by the time we figure most everything out, it's time to punch out...

Live long, and prosper.

[BEEF]

just before punch out time (as you call it), most people don't really care about the small stuff. vehicles are just modes of transportation and a house (be it modest or extravegant) is just a place to live.

I used to care about horsepower (well actually torque) but now, what's the point. I never really hauled that much in my truck. I hauled little stuff but nothing I can't do with my element and a trailer.

my truck was not a huge jacked up bohemoth or a lowered street machine either. it was fairly modest. it was a dodge dakota short bed regular cab. 4.7 with the 5-speed manual. I actually liked the sleeper look. nobody really knew what I had. it didn't say V8 anywhere on the outside of it. suprised a lot of people in that little truck. I guess this is where the old people get those stories that they tell over and over and over. I'll be old some day and will tell those stories too I guess.

[JanGeo]

Hey you just touched on a sore subject of course! Watching the news of people down south where the gas has run out in the storm areas - PEOPLE DRIVE AROUND LOOKING FOR GAS DUH!!!! I also see cars waiting in line with headlights on - indicating engine is running!!! DUH!!! And how many of the vehicles waiting in line are fuel efficient?? not too many!

Don't let it bother you too much - there are some people you just can't help. I tell salesmen in Toyota dealerships about my high MPG in my Scion and it doesn't even phase them.

[theholycow]

I started putting together this reply and realized I was going on for pages and pages responding to different stuff, so I might as well break it up into a few posts...

Originally Posted by Project84

maybe it's the fact that I'm a jack of all trades maintenance man, and my day to day is fixing other people's messes because they were TOO STUPID to educate themselves on the equipment before using it; breaking it and then again, not caring enough to learn how to fix it themselves....

I can totally identify with that, as an IT guy. We have the same problem. I have managed to gain a little more philosophical, accepting perspective on it in the last few years -- users are dumb, always have been, always will be; they are lazy; they will not change; and they can not change. Sometimes it's annoying to fix the same crap over and over, when I'd rather be learning something, fixing something new to me, which is more fulfilling; but either way, I have a job -- and at least fixing the same crap over and over is easy.

Originally Posted by Project84

giving some kind of excuses as to why GM has little to no offering for a high mpg car, stating "the general public doesn't want a futuristic bubble car" as if to be aero friendly it has to be a bubble? Shows the mentality.

That mentality is shared by the general public, unfortunately. They don't want a "futuristic bubble car", which is probably why the Ford Taurus went from the #1 seller to Out Of Production in one generation (though recently the Taurus name was exhumed and pasted onto the failing Ford Five Hundred). That's actually a change of direction, as they DID want a "futuristic bubble car" when the original Taurus first came out, with its bubble shape being the first rounded car after decades of squares and corners...although that one never looked as bubbly or futuristic as the failed last-gen Taurus.

Anyway, I digress. They don't want a "futuristic bubble car", and that's what they think of when they see anything that looks different than expected, unless it looks more macho (which means more blocky and a bigger grille).

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Mr Incredible

They're snotty and full of themselves, and you can't change that. But you can lead them to knowledge. Some of them will walk away with a seed of need to understand, others won't . Be a beacon of light, Project 84, in a sea of youthful male know-it-all darkness.

Keep in mind that from their point of view, we are snotty and full of ourselves, and we're holier-than-thou too. Especially when we force them to actually google for our "secrets".

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Project84

Seriously though, it's odd over there, almost like people who have something because they think its cool, but none of them use the car for the intended purpose, although they all talk, and walk, the lifestyle of a drag racer.

That's how most people are with their vehicles and most other things in life. They talk the talk and that's good enough; they enjoy living in a fantasy world. It's not wrong, even though it feels that way to me; it works out great for them -- they get a car that looks like the image they want, show it off to others, brag, and they get their fulfillment out of life.

I am very much the opposite, to a fault -- I am really not good at the fantasy thing, so bad at it that I can't even do it to a healthy extent. Instead, however much my reality sucks, that's what I'm stuck with. That's great when my reality is good, but extremely depressing when it's not -- though at least I've learned to have lower standards than people who can spend much of their time in their fantasies.

As for never using the car for its intended purpose, I may be guilty of that one if I ever manage to get a Camaro. I want the new fifth gen, and I want the 300hp V6 with the 6MT. I want to hypermile it as my commute car. I want it for these reasons:
- It actually looks like it will be comfortable
- RWD
- Manual transmission
- Inexpensive
- It may be reasonably large
- Decent FE
- It looks nice when I look at it, and I don't care if other people think it looks nice or not

Sure, I'll fly around curves in it faster than most people would (I said would, not could) in any Camaro, Corvette, or even Lamborghini; that's just how I roll...but I even pull that off in my VW. It may never see 2000rpm if I can get a taller 6th gear into it, I'll never drag race it, and I'll rarely accelerate really hard. I won't be using it for either of its designed purposes, which are obviously to look macho for the fantasy folks and to accelerate hard for the drag racers, but I will be using it for a purpose for which you really can't find many choices.

Anyway, one of the biggest purposes every vehicle is designed for is image, because that's the most important thing to so many (most?) new car buyers. So, when they're talking the talk, they really are using it for its designed purpose.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by BEEF

honestly, I am a dodge guy myself

I always knew you were a bit dodgy.

Originally Posted by Project84

I'm a Dodge guy too,
I'm some sort of nutcase I guess.

An apt label, IMO.

[Project84]

hehe very good stuff going on in here... I like the tone here much more than any other thread I've been a part of.

theholycow, I'd say if you buy the v6, you aren't doing the car any injustices by not beating the snot out of it... afterall, they're planning to offer two versions w/ V8's, and only the 300hp v6, so you're not going overboard to spend a fortune on a daily driver for the image alone.

The people I talk about buy super nice cars (nothing wrong w/ that) and then spend TONS AND TONS of money making them FAST... but then rarely or never race them, mostly I'd bet, due to not wanting to damage the car they've invested a years worth of income on.

Myself? I bought my Z28 for $1k needing head gasket and a clutch, replaced everything, and with a full investment around $2k, I beat the snot out of it and take it to SCCA races every chance I get (not often, but hey, I'm still out there giving it hell). My turbo Miata will sing to about a $3k investment price when done, and it's going to replace the Camaro as my race car and the Camaro will either be sold or upgraded w/ a rear mount turbo setup (cheap and efficient) and brought back to racing.

I also had a "half-fro" for a while... wanting to be different I guess. Then friends decided to put blonde highlights in it and they turned orange because I have dark hair... so my nick name was the "calico-kid" in reference to a calico-cat. LOL I'm telling ya, I'm a goofy bastage.